The OG+the Compilation

[BlankBeat]

It's really interesting how you always put so much weight in the "normally occurring" optional date scene that three other characters can get ( don't forget poot Barret and Yuffie, their dates are fun, too) because it serves the narrative while ignoring a variable in a scene that also serves the narrative and the plot in general. Even more when the HA HW scene has been proved to be the canon one from the two versions, but you know all that already, right?!

Aerith is the "promised" date. Aerith starts off with the most love points. Aerith is given predictions by Cait Sith.

Barret and Yuffie aren't in the officially established love triangle.

Yes -- you can optionally rekindle a childhood romance with Tifa. Doesn't change the fact that Cloud wants it to be Aerith at the very end of the game when she reaches down from the lifestream.

Also, the HW scene is where they confirm their feelings, but their feelings are revealed in the lifestream scene, which is a non-optional and non-variable scene

I've always believed Cloud had feelings for Tifa as a kid, and that you can optionally rekindle them through a variable scene.

Doesn't change the fact that Cloud's preference when both ladies are alive is obviously Aerith. Even in death, Cloud's preference is Aerith due to him always seeking her and Tifa being jealous.

At the end of the game, Cloud wants it to be Aerith reaching down to him. That's just bloody obvious.

So sure -- he can end up with Tifa (if you choose to view it that way). But his preference has always been Aerith.

 

[DutchDread]

But the final product included Cloud and Aerith remaining as star-crossed lovers.

If you think that, then that's what you should try to prove, why are you talking about the games development when now you're switching goal posts to talking about it being in the actual game? Prove it.

According to the self-declared Judge Judy of game development design.

Jep, and according to logic. Your B didn't follow logically from your A. You were purely speculating on intentions, but you already established what the ACTUAL intentions were in your earlier argument.

Namely:

SE wants it to be easier to obtain the Clerith date. Why? So her death is more impactful and meaningful to both Cloud and those playing the game

There you were correct, but now suddenly you are saying it's because something else, unfortunately this reason you gave earlier is already sufficient reason in and off itself, so when you try to suddenly add an additional reason, that's called "speculation".

Why is the Clerith date stated to be the "normally occurring" date, then?

Because of the reason YOU mentioned above.

That's your go-to argument when you have nothing else to say.

That's my go to argument when that's not how game design works. And yes, in this case, I can simply assert this as someone who is knowledgeable in the field. This isn't about logic, although there is logic behind it, this is about how things are done in game design.

But the real answer is that we don't know, because they never met each other.

Damn, you sound like me, I feel like I've written your entire reply myself before XD

Cloud, who had stayed silent this whole time, spoke. “We’re not related by blood, but we’re family. Just like you.”

Dude, haven't you heard? Adopted kids don't count.

 

[looneymoon]

Nojima: I need to get Cloud and Tifa to have some relationship problems centering around children
Nojima: Marlene is a child... but Barret is her dad... how do I get rid of him........
Nojima: ...A-ha! He'll be off mining coal! Yes, perfectly in line with his character.

BlankBeat, Advent Children had some huge fallacies with it's writing and presentation. I think that a lot of your arguments rely too much on the idea that these fallacies are purposeful, and therefore reflective of the message that the writers are trying to get across I mean, if I wasn't familiar with your intentions, I honestly wouldn't blame you for getting the wrong idea.

 

[Shadowfox]

Aerith starting off with 20 more points than Tifa reflects this fundamental fact.

Just a quick comment, but, mechanically, Aerith starting off with 20 more points is due to her transferring her pre-existing feelings for Zack onto Cloud, who reminds her of her first love.

 

[DutchDread]

Just a quick comment, but, mechanically, Aerith starting off with 20 more points is due to her transferring her pre-existing feelings for Zack onto Cloud, who reminds her of her first love.

Well, although I love arguing this point out of pure spite, I have to admit that BB is actually right on this one thing (although more by chance than anything else).
The reason the designers gave certain characters more or less starting affinity has nothing to do with their actual affinity to Cloud. It's purely because of one reason, they wanted to nudge you towards the Aerith date on your first playthrough.

The fact that that's the case works against Aerith, not for her, but it is true. I guarantee you there was not a single designer going "hmm, well, on a scale of one to 50, Aerith in this point of the game probably likes Cloud 10 more, so we'll start her off with 10 more points, ah but damn, Tifa is more shy, therefore she'd also be less likely to instigate a date, therefore I should add on another 10".

That having been said, there are still reasons why Aerith is more likely to go on a date "IN UNIVERSE", it's just that you can't use the mechanics of starting affinity points to prove those.

 

[BlankBeat]

If you think that, then that's what you should try to prove, why are you talking about the games development when now you're switching goal posts to talking about it being in the actual game? Prove it.

You want me to prove something that is just blatantly obvious.

And OF COURSE you will deny the obvious to make me "prove" something that doesn't need to be proven.

By simply playing the game of FFVII, it is clear to me that Cloud and Aerith are designed as a star-crossed love story.

Do we need "proof" that Jack and Rose in "Titanic" are a star-crossed love story? No. We don't. It's obvious. Just like Cloud and Aerith are an obvious star-crossed romance.

You say you don't want to debate with people who are intellectually dishonest and don't truly want to have a debate in good faith, yet here you are.

Aerith starts off with more love points than Tifa because Aerith is the main narrative. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest. SE wants gamers to grow attached to Aerith so that her death is more impactful and meaningful to the gamer and to Cloud.

By SE deciding to start Aerith off with more love points than Tifa, it is clear to me that Aerith is favored over Tifa. Aerith is the main narrative, the main heroine, and the main love interest.

You can disagree with my opinion. You can claim to be an expert on game development.

But I never claimed to provide anything more than my opinion.

If you don't want to accept my interpretation, or think that because you are an "expert" that your interpretation is more valid, so be it.

But I won't be bullied.

I won't allow you to make me provide evidence when there is no need to. I'm simply playing the game of FFVII and reacting to it.

The game showcases a star-crossed love story between Cloud and Aerith, and begins the game by giving Aerith more love points than Tifa.

Common sense tells me that the creators are favoring Aerith as the main love interest due to both her love point advantage and the main narrative (ie: Aerith dies).

The love point advantage allows Aerith to be the favored narrative for the majority of gamers. Why? Because she's the original love interest to Cloud and her death is the most significant scene in the game.

If you don't agree with me, fine. So be it.

But I'm not going to spend my time and energy giving you quotes and proofs that you wouldn't accept anyway. Your are playing a game and asking me to prove common sense. You are asking me to prove what is right in-front of your eyes with the main narrative of the game.

I'm speaking to you from my opinion and from common sense. I'm reacting to the game I have played and the love totals I see expressed at the start of the game. Aerith is the main narrative and SE is ensuring that this is the case by giving her a 20 point advantage over Tifa.

But I guess you are the "expert." LMAO.

PS:

And honestly -- the pile-on is already starting to happen. Again.

It is exhausting and annoying and ridiculous.

Oh well. I knew what I was in for.

See y'all later when I have the time and energy to respond to each and every one of you.

 

[DutchDread]

You want me to prove something that is just blatantly obvious.

And OF COURSE you will deny the obvious to make me "prove" something that doesn't need to be proven.

By simply playing the game of FFVII, it is clear to me that Cloud and Aerith are designed as a star-crossed love story.

Do we need "proof" that Jack and Rose in "Titanic" are a star-crossed love story? No. We don't. It's obvious. Just like Cloud and Aerith are an obvious star-crossed romance.

You say you don't want to debate with people who are intellectually dishonest and don't truly want to have a debate in good faith, yet here you are.

Aerith starts off with more love points than Tifa because Aerith is the main narrative. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest. SE wants gamers to grow attached to Aerith so that her death is more impactful and meaningful to the gamer and to Cloud.

By SE deciding to start Aerith off with more love points than Tifa, it is clear to me that Aerith is favored over Tifa. Aerith is the main narrative, the main heroine, and the main love interest.

You can disagree with my opinion. You can claim to be an expert on game development.

But I never claimed to provide anything more than my opinion.

If you don't want to accept my interpretation, or think that because you are an "expert" that your interpretation is more valid, so be it.

But I won't be bullied.

I won't allow you to make me provide evidence when there is no need to. I'm simply playing the game of FFVII and reacting to it.

The game showcases a star-crossed love story between Cloud and Aerith, and begins the game by giving Aerith more love points than Tifa.

Common sense tells me that the creators are favoring Aerith as the main love interest due to both her love point advantage and the main narrative (ie: Aerith dies).

The love point advantage allows Aerith to be the favored narrative for the majority of gamers. Why? Because she's the original love interest to Cloud and her death is the most significant scene in the game.

If you don't agree with me, fine. So be it.

But I'm not going to spend my time and energy giving you quotes and proofs that you wouldn't accept anyway. Your are playing a game and asking me to prove common sense. You are asking me to prove what is right in-front of your eyes with the main narrative of the game.

I'm speaking to you from my opinion and from common sense. I'm reacting to the game I have played and the love totals I see expressed at the start of the game. Aerith is the main narrative and SE is ensuring that this is the case by giving her a 20 point advantage over Tifa.

But I guess you are the "expert." LMAO.

PS:

And honestly -- the pile-on is already starting to happen. Again.

It is exhausting and annoying and ridiculous.

Oh well. I knew what I was in for.

See y'all later when I have the time and energy to respond to each and every one of you.

Now you're just ranting again, neither gonna read nor reply, "It's obvious" and "it's common sense" aren't arguments, they're you admitting you don't have an argument. It's obviously NOT common sense, because otherwise you wouldn't be having this debate with people, personally I think the OPPOSITE is common sense, as does apparently, the majority of people, since more people think Tifa is Clouds real love interest than think it's Aerith.

And honestly -- the pile-on is already starting to happen. Again.

Because your "common sense", isn't shared by us "commoners". When you are getting a pile up, it's not because we're conspiring, it's cause you're wrong.

 

[BlankBeat]

So SE created a love triangle and had one of the members die so we wouldn't think it was a star-crossed love story?

 

[DutchDread]

So SE created a love triangle and had one of the members die so we wouldn't think it was a star-crossed love story?

Misordering of events. The death came before the love triangle.

 

[BlankBeat]

Now you're just ranting again, neither gonna read nor reply, "It's obvious" and "it's common sense" aren't arguments, they're you admitting you don't have an argument. It's obviously NOT common sense, because otherwise you wouldn't be having this debate with people, personally I think the OPPOSITE is common sense, as does apparently, the majority of people, since more people think Tifa is Clouds real love interest than think it's Aerith.

Clerith has been considered more popular in Japan. But I'm sure you'll want proof of that, too.

Also -- all of the Zack nonsense that you spewed awhile back (and didn't respond to) is also why people have so many misconceptions about the love triangle.

It is very simple to say: Cloud is with Tifa and Aerith is with Zack. That is a very easy thing for the casual fan to be told to believe. It looks "correct" on the surface.

Furthermore, Crisis Core is a retcon that led many new gamers to believe something different than what was represented in the OG. Luckily, the Remake is correcting the record. Aerith states in the Remake that she wants to move "FORWARD" with her life in regards to Zack.

Google:

"Star-crossed" or "star-crossed lovers" is a phrase describing a pair of lovers whose relationship is often thwarted by outside forces.

The term encompasses other meanings, but originally means the pairing is being "thwarted by a malign star" or that the stars are working against the relationship.

Cait Sith:

“You are perfect for each other! Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future! ”

Then, Sephiroth, as the outside force, "thwarts" the romance between Cloud and Aerith, just as the Titanic sinking "thwarts" the romance between Jack and Rose.

"Outside forces" (Sephiroth & the Titanic sinking) "thwart" star-crossed lovers Jack & Rose and Cloud & Aerith.

Obvious common sense.

 

[Yumelinh]

Aerith is the "promised" date. Aerith starts off with the most love points. Aerith is given predictions by Cait Sith.

I don't get this part. I agreed with you. We're on the same page here, dear.

Barret and Yuffie aren't in the officially established love triangle.

I'm aware, but the problem is .... they are also options for the GS date.

This is basically what differentiates a variable scene from an optional scene in a game. A variable scene is often used as a way to "punish" the player when they fail to meet the standards necessary to achieve the "real" scene, while an optional scene is often never a "low" version of the same scene, it is simply different scenes that you can get as a result of your choices. You can even get all the options if you wish because they also never overload or refute the existence of the other.

Highwind is a variable scene. The GS date is an optional scene.

Yes -- you can optionally rekindle a childhood romance with Tifa. Doesn't change the fact that Cloud wants it to be Aerith at the very end of the game when she reaches down from the lifestream.


I've always believed Cloud had feelings for Tifa as a kid, and that you can optionally rekindle them through a variable scene.

Sure, you can fail to get the HA Highwing scene or you can fail on purpose if you prefer, but that doesn't change the fact that, storywise, the HA HW scene happened because, like most variable scenes, it has a canonical result. There's enough to prove it.

Doesn't change the fact that Cloud's preference when both ladies are alive is obviously Aerith. Even in death, Cloud's preference is Aerith due to him always seeking her and Tifa being jealous.

At the end of the game, Cloud wants it to be Aerith reaching down to him. That's just bloody obvious.

So sure -- he can end up with Tifa (if you choose to view it that way). But his preference has always been Aerith.

It's not a fact, it's your own belief.

At the end of the day, the only "facts" we can take aside from our own opinions and beliefs go in a completely different direction from yours: they stated that Cloud and Tifa confirmed their romantic feelings, they explained Cloud's feelings towards Aerith post-OG and it wasn't Love, but guilt, they explained that Cloud was happy with his family and Tifa, and that also after he was able to forgive himself, he returned to her and the children. Somehow, our "I love ambiguity" SE gave us all these confirmations, can you believe it?


Edit: typos and pretty much everything else too

 

[BlankBeat]

Sure, you can fail to get the HA Highwing scene or you can fail propursefully if that what you prefer as well, but it doesn't change the fact that, storywise, the HA HW scene happened because as most variable scenes, it has a canon outcome. There's enough to prove to that.

And even if the high affection Highwind scene happens...

Cloud still wants it to be Aerith reaching for him at the end of the game.

Nojima and Marlene observe that CxT don't work out.

Cloud still seeks ways to reunite with Aerith, even in death.

Tifa gets jealous that Cloud continues to seek Aerith.

 

[minami758]

Aerith starts off with more love points than Tifa because Aerith is the main narrative. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest. SE wants gamers to grow attached to Aerith so that her death is more impactful and meaningful to the gamer and to Cloud.

By SE deciding to start Aerith off with more love points than Tifa, it is clear to me that Aerith is favored over Tifa. Aerith is the main narrative, the main heroine, and the main love interest.

I agree with you that Aerith is extremely important to the external plot of FF7. Her fate is directly tied to the fate of the Planet, that is true. However, you seem to forget another "main narrative" — our hero, Cloud's. The single biggest plot twist in the story is the truth of Cloud's identity. Aerith's death scene is iconic, yes, but the Lifestream sequence is the reveal from which all other puzzle pieces begin to fall into place. Cloud's hero's journey as the protagonist of FF7 and discovering his real identity is just as important to the narrative as the fate of the Planet. We (the audience) wouldn't care about the fate of the Planet if we didn't care about the people who live on it first.

The plot twist that is Cloud's identity ties directly into the role of Aerith as a love interest. You are right (for the wrong reasons) that the game pushes you toward Aerith first — why is that? To heighten the impact of her death, yes, but also because she plays right into the fallacy of Cloud's SOLDIER persona. You say it's because Aerith and Cloud are "star-crossed lovers," but why would Square tell that story then make you realize that Cloud was not himself during that time?

Furthermore, why would Square then tell you that Cloud joined SOLDIER to impress Tifa? Why would they tell you that he made a promise to be her hero then created a SOLDIER persona out of his clusterfucked memories when he met her again 7 years later? Why was Tifa the one who dove into the deepest recesses of Cloud's mind to piece him back together? Why was Tifa the catalyst for Cloud's journey to begin?

Because that was the point. Cloud admits, after he regains his real identity, that he was living in an illusion before. An illusion he created in his mind to cope with his own failures and weaknesses (which were directly tied to desire to impress Tifa.)

Aerith's role as a love interest is a part of that illusion. That doesn't mean their bond was any less real, but that the romantic aspect of it was always just that — a fantasy, never to be realized. SOLDIER!Cloud might've wanted to live in that fantasy, but real!Cloud says, “I can’t remain trapped in an illusion anymore. I’m going to live my life without pretending.”

FF7 is not a tragic love story about star-crossed lovers as you seem to think is such "common sense." Titanic (great movie as it is) has no purpose in this discussion because, frankly, Titanic has nothing in common with FF7.

I am really clinging onto the hope that you're debating in good faith because I genuinely think this is an interesting discussion. It seems there are several people here attempting to meet you halfway and yet for some reason you won't extend the same courtesy to them. We're all speaking our opinions here, backed up by evidence as needed.

 

[BlankBeat]

IAerith's role as a love interest is a part of that illusion. That doesn't mean their bond was any less real, but that the romantic aspect of it was always just that — a fantasy, never to be realized. SOLDIER!Cloud might've wanted to live in that fantasy, but real!Cloud says, “I can’t remain trapped in an illusion anymore. I’m going to live my life without pretending.”

If what you say is correct, that Cloud's love for Aerith was part of the "illusion," why does SE show REAL Cloud trying to reunite with Aerith in flower fields and in numerous cameos?

 

[Ruri]

Tifa gets jealous that Cloud continues to seek Aerith.

Childhood
HW.
Post OG.
Post AC & DoC.

These are where he seeked out Tifa.

The latest appearance being from 'The Kids are Alright' where Cloud is talking about his family is not an example of a man seeking out a dead love, it is a man who is trying to peacefully live out his life with the woman he is constantly mentioned to to share feelings with and the mother of his family.

Tifa either lets go of any jealousy (nothing to your claim of degree) or makes peace with it, however you want to word it, because:

In AC: “Tifa, smiling towards Aerith’s presence. Cherishing Aerith is Tifa’s honest feeling.”

From Tifa Lockhart’s Character Profile (FFVII 10th Anniversary)


Sorry, BB. This is SE's take on Tifa's feelings to Aerith. Your insistence on how Tifa Lockhart's emotions function are falling flat.

If what you say is correct, that Cloud's love for her was part of the "illusion," why does SE show REAL Cloud trying to reunite with Aerith in flower fields and in numerous cameos?

Why was the original AC C/A end credits scene taken out in ACC? An actual piece of VII compilation and not Terra from FFVI.

I also have an answer for you but I don't think this is the cameos thread and not really fitting.

 

[BlankBeat]

Who cares?

The flower fields Cloud rides his motorcycle through in ACC are still stated to represent Aerith (ie: the same flower fields Cloud returns to at the end of Dissidia -- the place where Cloud is "supposed to be.")

 

[Ruri]

I care.

But alrighty, BB. I acknowledge all C/A easter eggs in other games as nods to Cloud and Aerith's relationship and that's the value they have to me, and if you need to pull from Cloud standing in a flower field in Dissidia to support your interpretation of Aerith being Cloud's true love you need to hold it up against the actual mainline VII story, of which, Cloud settles down with Tifa and not really any mention of Aerith in his last appearance happens.

 

[BlankBeat]

The original AC ending is just as valid as the ACC ending. Who knows why SE changed it? In my opinion, they are both equally valid endings. Neither one is more "correct" or "right" than the other.

But guess what? In both endings, Cloud is riding his motorcycle through flower fields stated to represent Aerith. In both versions, the flower fields are there.

Cloud is consistently shown returning to flower fields. The flower fields have been stated as the place where Cloud is "supposed to be."

The symbolism is undeniable. Aerith is Cloud's true love. Even Tifa knows this to be true, which is why she is jealous.

 

[LNK]

You can interpret Cloud and Tifa living with Barret as romantic. But it isn't official.

Saying stuff like this, while using WoFF in your argument is funny haha

 

[BlankBeat]

Saying stuff like this, while using WoFF in your argument is funny haha

Y'all are the ones claiming Cloud and Tifa are an official couple. Y'all use the family and kids as your proof. But this family includes Barret, Marlene is Barret's daughter, and Cloud believes Aerith brought him Denzel.

My point is that the family includes Barret.

Barret returns to living with Cloud and TIfa in DoC.

Barret considers himself a member of the family.

This isn't a family born out of romance.

This is the Seventh Heaven family that has existed before Cloud showed up.

To say Cloud and Tifa are an official family born out of romance is a misrepresentation of the truth. This family will forever include Barret.

Tifa is referred to as a "childhood friend" in DoC.

Nojima and Marlene say CxT didn't work out.

Cloud and Tifa have zero scenes of romance post-AC.

Therefore, they aren't an official couple until we see a scene of romance or we are told Tifa is more than just a mere "childhood friend."

And again -- I'm not saying Clerith is an official couple. I'm saying Cloud prefers Aerith and would have been with her if she hadn't died. I'm also saying Cloud continually seeks Aerith (even in death), and that Tifa's jealousy is due to the fact that even she knows Cloud prefers Aerith.

 

[Master Bates]

You want me to prove something that is just blatantly obvious.

And yet here you are asking people to prove what is blatantly obvious.

You do you, BB.

 

[LNK]

Y'all are the ones claiming Cloud and Tifa are an official couple. Y'all use the family and kids as your proof. But this family includes Barret, Marlene is Barret's daughter, and Cloud believes Aerith brought him Denzel

@Theozilla already provided the sources that show Cloud and Tifa being a couple at the end of ACC.

My point is that the family includes Barret.

Of course he is. But that doesn't mean C&T weren't together post ACC. I will forever be considered family to my brother, his girlfriend and daughter. That doesn't mean my brother and his girlfriend aren't together.

This isn't a family born out of romance.

Canonically that's not true. The lifestream scene and the Highwind scene prove that to be false.

Tifa is referred to as a "childhood friend" in DoC.

Because that's true.

Cloud and Tifa have zero scenes of romance post-AC.

Therefore, they aren't an official couple until we see a scene of romance or we are told Tifa is more than just a mere "childhood friend."

That doesn't mean they aren't together though. Its been said here, and previously that DoC is about Vincent. There are barely any C&T scenes in that game. Adding in some romantic scene in that game wouldn't have made any sense

And again -- I'm not saying Clerith is an official couple. I'm saying Cloud prefers Aerith and would have been with her if she hadn't died. I'm also saying Cloud continually seeks Aerith (even in death), and that Tifa's jealousy is due to the fact that even she knows Cloud prefers Aerith.

I know you're not saying C&A are an official couple
But, just because Cloud still seeks out Aerith up until the end scene in ACC, doesn't mean he preferred her romantically over Tifa. What we're told, is her felt guilty for her death and never got any closure. Once he got his closure, he was able to move forward with Tifa, again.

 

[BlankBeat]

@Theozilla already provided the sources that show Cloud and Tifa being a couple at the end of ACC.

What sources?

Of course he is. But that doesn't mean C&T weren't together post ACC. I will forever be considered family to my brother, his girlfriend and daughter. That doesn't mean my brother and his girlfriend aren't together.

But are you using this family to prove that your brother and girlfriend are together?

Canonically that's not true. The lifestream scene and the Highwind scene prove that to be false.

Cloud had a childhood crush on Tifa that can be optionally rekindled through a variable scene.

Cloud still wants it to be Aerith reaching for him at the very end of the game. This is expressed again in AC during the "homage" where Cloud and Aerith finally lock hands.

Cloud wants it to be Aerith. Cloud prefers Aerith.

Even if Cloud "ends up" with Tifa, he still wishes it was Aerith. That's why Tifa is jealous.

Because that's true.

If Cloud and Tifa are canon, it will forever be weird to me that Tifa is never upgraded to "girlfriend" or "lover" in gaming manual descriptions.

That doesn't mean they aren't together though. Its been said here, and previously that DoC is about Vincent. There are barely any C&T scenes in that game. Adding in some romantic scene in that game wouldn't have made any sense

Yet they still included descriptions like "childhood friend" for characters such as Tifa.

But, just because Cloud still seeks out Aerith up until the end scene in ACC, doesn't mean he preferred her romantically over Tifa. What we're told, is her felt guilty for her death and never got any closure. Once he got his closure, he was able to move forward with Tifa, again.

Yes -- Cloud felt guilty for letting the woman he loved die. Tifa gets jealous over this.

If Cloud "moves on," why is he returning to flower fields? Why are these flower fields stated to be the place Cloud is "supposed to be"...!?!?!?

 

[LNK]

What sources

I believe it was in the LTD thread that included the remake. They were stuff from the Ultimania and another mag I can't recall. Prior to that, I also thought C&T weren't together post ACC.

But are you using this family to prove that your brother and girlfriend are together?

No, that's just an example that 2 people can still be together, while having outside people apart of their family.

Cloud had a childhood crush on Tifa that can be optionally rekindled through a variable scene.

The option scenes aren't what matters though. The lifestream and Highwind scenes are the ones that do.

Cloud still wants it to be Aerith reaching for him at the very end of the game. This is expressed again in AC during the "homage" where Cloud and Aerith finally lock hands

Considering how guilty he felt after not being able to prevent her death, I'm not surprised.

Cloud wants it to be Aerith. Cloud prefers Aerith.

Post lifestream scene, I think that's false.

Even if Cloud "ends up" with Tifa, he still wishes it was Aerith. That's why Tifa is jealous.

That is your opinion, which I disagree with, but respect.

If Cloud and Tifa are canon, it will forever be weird to me that Tifa is never upgraded to "girlfriend" or "lover" in gaming manual descriptions.

That's fine. It will forever be weird to me, that Cloud had such good dance moves in the remake.

Yes -- Cloud felt guilty for letting the woman he loved die. Tifa gets jealous over this.

That still doesn't prove that he preferred Aerith over Tifa, post Lifestream scene.

If Cloud "moves on," why is he returning to flower fields? Why are these flower fields stated to be the place Cloud is "supposed to be"...!?!?!?

Because he still felt such grief about her death.

 

[BlankBeat]

I believe it was in the LTD thread that included the remake. They were stuff from the Ultimania and another mag I can't recall. Prior to that, I also thought C&T weren't together post ACC.

OK?

No, that's just an example that 2 people can still be together, while having outside people apart of their family.

Right. I'm saying the Seventh Heaven family is being used to prove Cloti. But it shouldn't be used because 1. Barret is a member 2. Marlene is Barret's daughter and 3. Cloud believes Aerith brought him Denzel.

The option scenes aren't what matters though. The lifestream and Highwind scenes are the ones that do.

The lifestream scene proves a childhood crush.

The Highwind scene is variable. Even if the high affection version is canon, it is still variable. Variable evidence is inherently weaker evidence.

The Shinra jail cell scene is non-variable and non-optional. Cloud prefers Aerith in that scene and Tifa gets jealous.

The hand reach scene is non-variable and non-optional. It also comes after the Highwind scene. Cloud wishes the woman reaching for him was Aerith and not Tifa.

Considering how guilty he felt after not being able to prevent her death, I'm not surprised.

Glad you aren't surprised.

Post lifestream scene, I think that's false.

Cloud states he wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land after the lifestream scene.

Cloud is shown seeking Aerith in numerous universes after the lifestream scene.

That is your opinion, which I disagree with, but respect.

OK.

That's fine. It will forever be weird to me, that Cloud had such good dance moves in the remake.

Cloud is cute.

That still doesn't prove that he preferred Aerith over Tifa, post Lifestream scene.

Cloud wishes it was Aerith reaching for him at the end of FFVII.

Cloud seeks Aerith. Tifa gets jealous.

Cloud obviously prefers Aerith. Even Tifa knows this to be true.

Because he still felt such grief about her death.

Right. Cloud felt grief due to letting the woman he loved die.