- AKA
- TresDias
Guys, Genesis is expecting Weiss to be of help with whatever he's planning. It's going to be the magnum opus from Wacky Shack Productions -- believe it.
SPOILERS If Genesis does return, how would you like to see him handled?
- Thread starter Roundhouse
- Start date
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
How evil is Weiss anyways? He's ruthless, violent, and sadistic, but he was raised that way. His role doesn't really allude to much or hint what direction they could go.
I mean I guess we'll find out in the Remake? Because quite aptly, the Pure White Emperor is a perfectly blank canvas.
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
Weiss the Immaculate and Genesis the Vermilion will defeat Roth.
In seriousness, that idea Mako has of Genesis as a Dark Knight helping from the shadows is great.
In seriousness, that idea Mako has of Genesis as a Dark Knight helping from the shadows is great.
- AKA
- The Engineer
The irony I find with everyone thinking Genesis' desire to be a hero is petty is... Sephiroth also thinks that about Genesis... and Genesis doesn't exactly say he's wrong about that. He also says he's got a different priority now than fame. And this is before Genesis' mental faculties degrade a lot. It's also during the only conversation he has with Sephrioth without anyone else around to watch in all of Crisis Core.
It's worth pointing out that in Crisis Core Keywords, the "Gift of the Goddess" is a subject of debate by people who study Loveless. But it's most commonly thought to be perpetual youth or longevity (think the concept of the Fountain of Youth in a world where people know werid magic stuff is an actual thing that exists). And Genesis already knows he is dying...
- AKA
- Ergo, V
3d print gackt and save yourself some munny
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
Damn, so much hate haha.
BioTeach
Pro Adventurer
I actually kind of liked Genesis. Yes, he was a bit eccentric but I felt like he was supposed be that way so I can overlook his weirdness. As far as remake goes I would really love to see some kind of interaction between him and Sephiroth. The last time they spoke was in the Nibelheim reactor. We never saw Genesis's reaction to what happened to Sephiroth after. Was he happy Seph died? Was he sitting at the top of Mt Nobel with a bowl of popcorn enjoying the fireworks show? Did he even stick around to see what Sept would do?
Second, i think some conversation between them could be fun. I headcanon that Genesis can be a little sassy and I'd like to see him throw a little snark Sephiroths way ("Well, look at you. Who's the egotistical-planet-destroying maniac now?")
Lastly, I think another really cool scene could be Sephiroth asking Genesis for help (like he asked Cloud) It would be an interesting role reversal from the Nibelheim reactor and Genesis could have the pleasure of turning him down.
Second, i think some conversation between them could be fun. I headcanon that Genesis can be a little sassy and I'd like to see him throw a little snark Sephiroths way ("Well, look at you. Who's the egotistical-planet-destroying maniac now?")
Lastly, I think another really cool scene could be Sephiroth asking Genesis for help (like he asked Cloud) It would be an interesting role reversal from the Nibelheim reactor and Genesis could have the pleasure of turning him down.
- AKA
- The Engineer
Considering that Sephrioth basically told Genesis to go die at Nibelehim... yeah... I could see Genesis being thrilled to not help Sephrioth hang on to life more than Sephrioth is already doing.
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
The only way to make Genesis even more hated than he is......make him the one who stops Sephiroth from killing Aerith. Although, that being said, I think that would endear him to a bunch of people who want her alive, so maybe it might increase his popularity, ultimately.
If Genesis does re-appear, I'm hoping for a bit of a significant re-design. Some timey-wimey business would give broad licence to change some things about his character's personality also. I get the impression he could do with a dose of maturity (at least, it would make him more endearing to me, than some of the cringe he comes out with). If Sephiroth is a time traveller from the future, why can't Genesis be? That's my argument, and it would possibly tie loose ends given the ending of Dirge 
. Maybe after flying away with Weiss, he spends 30 years doing whatever, and then travels back in time. Is he still degenerating? I honestly am not too informed of his story, re: Crisis Core and Dirge, having played neither (just viewing FMVs... and not recently). Maybe he can be like a reformed Gollum? 
.
. Maybe after flying away with Weiss, he spends 30 years doing whatever, and then travels back in time. Is he still degenerating? I honestly am not too informed of his story, re: Crisis Core and Dirge, having played neither (just viewing FMVs... and not recently). Maybe he can be like a reformed Gollum? .
If he's not necessary to the story, he shouldn't be in it. Writers shouldn't be bending and twisting their stories to accomodate a character who doesn't really have a role. A time-travelling, well-intentioned, all-knowing, I-only-use-my-powers-for-good Genesis wouldn't even be the same character and FFVII would definitely no longer be the same story.
Therefore, the way I'd like to see him handled is as a backflash only. This is similar to how I would like to see the BC Turks used as NPCs, people who lurk on the sidelines of your path; people you might bump into and ask for directions, but not characters with a role critical to the plot.
Therefore, the way I'd like to see him handled is as a backflash only. This is similar to how I would like to see the BC Turks used as NPCs, people who lurk on the sidelines of your path; people you might bump into and ask for directions, but not characters with a role critical to the plot.
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
Something hilarious about Genesis being compared to Gollum...
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
Is there anything RemakeGenesis can do to win you over??
Keveh Kins
Pun Enthusiast
Genesis versus Chadley, a fight to the death. I'd fully support whoever wins
@Roundhouse
Depends on what you mean by "win over". I actually look forward to kickin' his arse again and it'd be neat if Remake used its time shenanigans to resolve Dirge's secret ending. I am all for that plot resolution and seeing Genesis evaporate into dust.
But if the character Genesis himself is to win me over, to make me sympathize with him and root for his happiness, the character will have to be so massively rewritten that it won't even be Genesis any longer. "Remake Genesis" would essentially be a unique, NEW character. It'd make for some good humor though to see Genesis acting out of character and saying stuff like...
These are sentences and mannerisms that I predict Genesis will never display. Genesis will never, ever apologize for anything.
Depends on what you mean by "win over". I actually look forward to kickin' his arse again and it'd be neat if Remake used its time shenanigans to resolve Dirge's secret ending. I am all for that plot resolution and seeing Genesis evaporate into dust.
But if the character Genesis himself is to win me over, to make me sympathize with him and root for his happiness, the character will have to be so massively rewritten that it won't even be Genesis any longer. "Remake Genesis" would essentially be a unique, NEW character. It'd make for some good humor though to see Genesis acting out of character and saying stuff like...
"Are you alright?"
"I was worried about you."
"I don't want needless bloodshed."
"I'm sorry."
"It's good to see you alive, Zack."
"Tell me what you think and I will genuinely listen."
These are sentences and mannerisms that I predict Genesis will never display. Genesis will never, ever apologize for anything.
- AKA
- Ergo, V
Fixxxed
- AKA
- The Engineer
It really depends what you mean by "necessary to the story". Sephiroth has so many gaps in what make him like he is in the OG. Particularly when it comes to *why* he reacts how he does to the information in Niblehim. It is... very obvious something was missing there. What that something originally was? I don't know.
Nojimia (the guy who wrote Sephrioth in the first place!) decided Sephrioth was missing two friends he didn't mind hanging out with. Who found out the truth of their origins first and then in trying to find out what happened to make them leave Shinra (and betray him), Sephiroth stumbles across his own origins. And that is after he spent two years dealing with SOLDIERs turned into monsters via Jenova's abilities.
The trouble I have with Sephiroth *before* he goes crazy in the OG is that there is no context to figure what is "normal" for him that would make the existance of Jenova abnormal. Or the story he reads of Project S. As it is, he's extremely cool-headed right up until he goes into the Mako reactor. So this gives the impression of a usually calm person snapping out of nowhere... which... always feels kinda hollow from a character motivation perspective.
The two big hints we have for *why* Sephrioth goes crazy in the OG is the line of Cloud (remembering Zack) that leads Sephrioth to think he's the same as the makonoids. And Sephrioth's admission that he has always felt special and different from other people ever since he was little.
We've barley run into any SOLDIERs in the OG yet... and all of them look and act a lot more human (including Cloud!) then several other Shinra enemies. I'd... think Sephiroth was crazy is a very different manner (this is logical to you because.... why?) if the information we learn after this isn't such a part of general FFVII lore by now. Even then, the information we learn in the Manor still doesn't explain how Sephrioth made that logical leap in the OG. The experiment it describes to make him is nothing like the makonoids.
And this why the argument of "Genesis drove Sephrioth crazy" has never really sat well with me. Crisis Core uses the exact same dialogue at the Nibelehim reactor there. Genesis isn't even on the scene yet. If anything, Crisis Core doubles down on the reality that it was Zack's question that sent Sephiroth over the edge! Why yes, I am a proponent of the theory that it was Zack who is the most... immediately... at fault for driving Sephrioth crazy.
Genesis only shows up at Nibelheim once Sephrioth is already questioning if he's human or not. Genesis himself has.... nothing to do with Sephiroth coming to that realization that he's not human at Nibelehim. And for that matter... Sephrioth doesn't care what Genesis is talking about. He rejects it and goes on to read the information in the Manor like in the OG and *that* is the information that really sticks with him.
What Genesis at the Nibelehim Reactor does is make *sure* the player knows Sephrioth actually knows what Jenova really is. Which... isn't actually specified in the OG. It's heavily implied when Sephrioth say he's absorbed the "Knowledge of the Ancients" from the Lifestream... but he never actually comes out and says something to the effect of "my mom was actually the Thing from space who crashed on the Planet and decimated the Cetra... and who was then found 2,000 years later and experimented on by Shinra". It's... not until ACC that we really get hard confirmation that Sephrioth (or rather, his Remnants) do know what Jenova was/is.
For me, Genesis (and Angeal) are "necessary" to the story of FFVII in that they provide a wealth of context for Sephrioth's breakdown at Nibelheim. You've now got two years of Sephrioth seeing SOLDIERs getting transformed by *something* in mako tubes into something that isn't human. And Sephrioth himself has been looking into Project G and realized that it's weird and off and *did something* to Angeal and Genesis that changed them. Zack also has learned *way more* about Project G than even Sephrioth has to the point he found out Jenova Cells were involved to make Genesi and Angeal. And Sephrioth was not around for that conversation...
They bring context to Zack asking Sephrioth if he's a "normal" SOLDIER... Zack knows Genesis and Angeal were not normal... and since it sounds like Sephrioth doesn't think's he's a "normal" SOLDIER, Zack wants to know if Sephrioth might be like Genesis and Angeal. Who are liked with Jenova who's name is on the wall of the reactor... and Zack *knows* Jenova has to do with why Genesis and Angeal went crazy.
They explain why Sephrioth see the monsters in pod and thinks that they might be human... he's been seeing human-based copies for all of CC; if they *look* human-shaped in a mako pob, then they probably started out as one. And they explain why Sephrioth woudld think about Hojo being involved with himself for so long and realize he might be an experiment as well. He knows Hollander was involved with how Genesis and Angeal were... created... and is why they themselves are not "normal" SOLDIERs.
All this comes together to give reasons and context for why Sephrioth comes to the realization that he is not "special" at Nibeleheim. He is not the only "non-normal" SOLDIER anymore. And he needs to be "special"... so he goes looking for a way to be "special" again... and finds it in the (wrong) reports about Jenova being a Cetra in the Nibelehim Manor. And those reasons and context help a lot to make Sephrioth feel much less "random" as a character when it comes to his motivations at Nibelehim.
Now... I'm not going to say that Nojima could not have come up with some other scenario to explain why Zack asks the question he asks or why Sephrioth reacts the way he does. But to say that Genesis (and Angeal) aren't necessary is... going a bit too far. It's like saying any information outside of the bare-bones of "what happens" in a story isn't "necessary" either. People *usually* like finding out more world-building and background info on why people do what they do in stories. It makes for a "fuller" world. And the number of "things/rolls" in FFVII that Genesis and Angeal fill with what they do (from a narrative perspective) is... substantial.
And this is all just from a practical "what does Gensis' actions actually do in the plot" angle. This doesn't get into anything related to how Genesis functions as a way for the devs to give commentary on the themes they want people to pick up on in the game...
Nojimia (the guy who wrote Sephrioth in the first place!) decided Sephrioth was missing two friends he didn't mind hanging out with. Who found out the truth of their origins first and then in trying to find out what happened to make them leave Shinra (and betray him), Sephiroth stumbles across his own origins. And that is after he spent two years dealing with SOLDIERs turned into monsters via Jenova's abilities.
The trouble I have with Sephiroth *before* he goes crazy in the OG is that there is no context to figure what is "normal" for him that would make the existance of Jenova abnormal. Or the story he reads of Project S. As it is, he's extremely cool-headed right up until he goes into the Mako reactor. So this gives the impression of a usually calm person snapping out of nowhere... which... always feels kinda hollow from a character motivation perspective.
The two big hints we have for *why* Sephrioth goes crazy in the OG is the line of Cloud (remembering Zack) that leads Sephrioth to think he's the same as the makonoids. And Sephrioth's admission that he has always felt special and different from other people ever since he was little.
This indicates that (a) Sephrioth had yet to really think about himself being one of Hojo's "science experiments" and (b) Sephiroth has always known he's not like other people... even when he is sane. He *likes* being different and special. This comes out later in Nibelehim when Sephrioth is faced with the reality that he really was just another science experiment to Hojo. However, what we are missing in the OG here is... why Zack would pay attention to the subtle difference between how Sephrioth talks about different kinds of SOLDIERs... and why Sephrioth would make the leap from "the makonoids" to "used to be human" to being "the same as all these monsters". All with the one question of "you mean you're not a normal member of SOLDIER?"
We've barley run into any SOLDIERs in the OG yet... and all of them look and act a lot more human (including Cloud!) then several other Shinra enemies. I'd... think Sephiroth was crazy is a very different manner (this is logical to you because.... why?) if the information we learn after this isn't such a part of general FFVII lore by now. Even then, the information we learn in the Manor still doesn't explain how Sephrioth made that logical leap in the OG. The experiment it describes to make him is nothing like the makonoids.
And this why the argument of "Genesis drove Sephrioth crazy" has never really sat well with me. Crisis Core uses the exact same dialogue at the Nibelehim reactor there. Genesis isn't even on the scene yet. If anything, Crisis Core doubles down on the reality that it was Zack's question that sent Sephiroth over the edge! Why yes, I am a proponent of the theory that it was Zack who is the most... immediately... at fault for driving Sephrioth crazy.
Genesis only shows up at Nibelheim once Sephrioth is already questioning if he's human or not. Genesis himself has.... nothing to do with Sephiroth coming to that realization that he's not human at Nibelehim. And for that matter... Sephrioth doesn't care what Genesis is talking about. He rejects it and goes on to read the information in the Manor like in the OG and *that* is the information that really sticks with him.
What Genesis at the Nibelehim Reactor does is make *sure* the player knows Sephrioth actually knows what Jenova really is. Which... isn't actually specified in the OG. It's heavily implied when Sephrioth say he's absorbed the "Knowledge of the Ancients" from the Lifestream... but he never actually comes out and says something to the effect of "my mom was actually the Thing from space who crashed on the Planet and decimated the Cetra... and who was then found 2,000 years later and experimented on by Shinra". It's... not until ACC that we really get hard confirmation that Sephrioth (or rather, his Remnants) do know what Jenova was/is.
For me, Genesis (and Angeal) are "necessary" to the story of FFVII in that they provide a wealth of context for Sephrioth's breakdown at Nibelheim. You've now got two years of Sephrioth seeing SOLDIERs getting transformed by *something* in mako tubes into something that isn't human. And Sephrioth himself has been looking into Project G and realized that it's weird and off and *did something* to Angeal and Genesis that changed them. Zack also has learned *way more* about Project G than even Sephrioth has to the point he found out Jenova Cells were involved to make Genesi and Angeal. And Sephrioth was not around for that conversation...
They bring context to Zack asking Sephrioth if he's a "normal" SOLDIER... Zack knows Genesis and Angeal were not normal... and since it sounds like Sephrioth doesn't think's he's a "normal" SOLDIER, Zack wants to know if Sephrioth might be like Genesis and Angeal. Who are liked with Jenova who's name is on the wall of the reactor... and Zack *knows* Jenova has to do with why Genesis and Angeal went crazy.
They explain why Sephrioth see the monsters in pod and thinks that they might be human... he's been seeing human-based copies for all of CC; if they *look* human-shaped in a mako pob, then they probably started out as one. And they explain why Sephrioth woudld think about Hojo being involved with himself for so long and realize he might be an experiment as well. He knows Hollander was involved with how Genesis and Angeal were... created... and is why they themselves are not "normal" SOLDIERs.
All this comes together to give reasons and context for why Sephrioth comes to the realization that he is not "special" at Nibeleheim. He is not the only "non-normal" SOLDIER anymore. And he needs to be "special"... so he goes looking for a way to be "special" again... and finds it in the (wrong) reports about Jenova being a Cetra in the Nibelehim Manor. And those reasons and context help a lot to make Sephrioth feel much less "random" as a character when it comes to his motivations at Nibelehim.
Now... I'm not going to say that Nojima could not have come up with some other scenario to explain why Zack asks the question he asks or why Sephrioth reacts the way he does. But to say that Genesis (and Angeal) aren't necessary is... going a bit too far. It's like saying any information outside of the bare-bones of "what happens" in a story isn't "necessary" either. People *usually* like finding out more world-building and background info on why people do what they do in stories. It makes for a "fuller" world. And the number of "things/rolls" in FFVII that Genesis and Angeal fill with what they do (from a narrative perspective) is... substantial.
And this is all just from a practical "what does Gensis' actions actually do in the plot" angle. This doesn't get into anything related to how Genesis functions as a way for the devs to give commentary on the themes they want people to pick up on in the game...
I suppose I never asked myself why Sephiroth would go postal like that. The explanation given in game was enough for me. He never seemed to me to be a human being, He's not what one would call a well-rounded character, unlike, say, Ardyn or even Vayne. He's just a threat to the planet and to human existence that has to be stopped. So I don't personally feel the need for Sephiroth to be explained in human terms, but I can see why people would want that.
- AKA
- TresDias
There's also Jenova itself being in the other room, and Sephiroth grabbing his head as though something is causing him cranial pain. That's always seemed like the most obvious explanation for his "reasoning" at that time, regardless of whatever else was going on with him.
He knows he's not an Ancient in the conversation right before that first time Cloud gives him the Black Materia. Aerith says Seph isn't an Ancient and he doesn't try to refute her -- in fact, he says he's superior to even them.