FFVII Remake: Intergrade Yuffie DLC Announced

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I mean it's all opinions at the end of the day but generally if enough people say it there might be some truth to it. I see a lot of complaints about the blood trail, Shinra's death scene, and the plate fall as things handled less good than the original. You can clearly point to the why on the problems with them. Some people might like the remake's takes of them, it's certainly possible but I don't think it's impossible to fairly judge something in a remake.

If that were the case I shouldn't think the remake does anything better than the original but it does do some things better and also captures feelings I had playing the OG too.
“I see a lot of complaints” doesn’t really tell me much though, I mean if I frequent a site like this or Reddit where people tend to be more particular with stuff like this then I can expect to see certain kinds of reactions more frequently but it doesn’t give me a good gauge of general audience reactions, Japanese audiences etc. At the end of the day, us nerdy Westerners don’t have as much power as we think we do, so on the other hand, if general audiences are mostly okay with it, that’s what typically matters most.

As far as comparing the remake to the original, it’s almost impossible not to do it but what I’m describing is more of a conscious effort on my part to actively avoid using how it compares to the OG as a metric for whether I think something is good or bad. I think it’s far too easy to fall into the “it’s different, so it’s bad” mentality and conversely, we end up letting stuff that we like get a pass because we already decided that it’s good. I mean, I love FF7 but I’m more than happy to admit to how stupid a lot of it is lol.
 

Danfromumbrella

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Dan
“I see a lot of complaints” doesn’t really tell me much though, I mean if I frequent a site like this or Reddit where people tend to be more particular with stuff like this then I can expect to see certain kinds of reactions more frequently but it doesn’t give me a good gauge of general audience reactions, Japanese audiences etc. At the end of the day, us nerdy Westerners don’t have as much power as we think we do, so on the other hand, if general audiences are mostly okay with it, that’s what typically matters most.

As far as comparing the remake to the original, it’s almost impossible not to do it but what I’m describing is more of a conscious effort on my part to actively avoid using how it compares to the OG as a metric for whether I think something is good or bad. I think it’s far too easy to fall into the “it’s different, so it’s bad” mentality and conversely, we end up letting stuff that we like get a pass because we already decided that it’s good. I mean, I love FF7 but I’m more than happy to admit to how stupid a lot of it is lol.

Yeah but that's why I mentioned specifically that there's some differences I think that were handled better than the remake. It's true some people out there have nostalgia glases and will always think doing it the OG way equals better but i don't think it's fair to say that's everyone either.

I mean look, we all know how we are as individuals. I'm straight forward with this. Which scene effected me more....

So for example:

Plate fall in FF7
VS
Plate fall in FF7R.

In FF7 it felt much more ominous, it didn't have the ghosts surrounding a certain character, it didn't have weird rock music playing the whole time, it had the president listening to opera music as the plate fell.

So it just had more emotional impact. It's not me thinking FF7R's is different so it's bad it just had less impact on me entirely.

Same goes for the Shinra scene. Walking down the halls with bodies everywhere...leading to Shinra with a sword in his back had a huge emotional response to me. There was just so much less building up to the moment and it lead to..... kinda a silly moment with him on the edge.

You can easily compare things and see flaws. Different doesn't mean bad, if different leads to a more effective scene that hits it's goals better. It's just sometimes it didn't.
 

Keveh Kins

Pun Enthusiast
You can easily compare things and see flaws. Different doesn't mean bad, if different leads to a more effective scene that hits it's goals better. It's just sometimes it didn't.

This. So much this.

The Remake blows the OG out of the water in its approach to certain parts of the story. Like Wall Market and the honey bee Inn. It's miles better in the Remake.

But then you get something like President Shinra dangling from a balcony, inexplicably not killed by Sephiroth already, so he can have a monologue about his shitty approach to life before he gets stabbed.

It's much less effective than the original, just finding him dead and that sense of foreboding that's been building gets its big payoff. The guy who, up to now, you thought was going to be a big problem for the entire game is just dead, gone, fucking inert (in the words of Billy Connolly).

He's still killed in the Remake, but the entire presentation has no oomph. There's no "oh shit" pay off to all the tension that's been building.

If they'd moved his monologue to an earlier point in the story, President Shinra could still have his character moment, still get to expound on his worldview and we would still have that "oh shit" moment of finding him dead.

They could have even added in more Barret (which is always a good thing with how well the Remake handles him), have him blowing up with equal parts excitement that Shinra is gone, and frustration that he never got to give him his come uppance personally.

Just, anything that isn't Shinra dangling on a balcony one second, shitting his togs, and then cooly pulling a gun and throwing in a soliloquy the next. It's naff and derails the tension.

They pull it right back with the Jenova fight and Rufus, but it's one of many instances where the Remake doesn't land the punch it's been loading up.
 
I agree with you, Dan. Those things are what made the OG platefall so much more powerful for me, and more of a work of art. The music in particular was a huge disappointment in the Remake.

Other people, I guess, feel the impact is stronger when the visuals are more realistic and some people with names are caught up in the destruction.

@ Keveh: agreed. His monologue was at an earlier point in the story in the OG, but the remakers rejected the "Press Up" scene from the OG in favour of Cloud getting possessed by Jenova and then ending up in Aerith's childhood cell to which she inexplicably has the key. I presume they did this because they wanted to include that artwork, and maybe for sentimental reasons. I don't think it was a good call.
 
I guess I'm in the minority of preferring the President Shinra villain monologue on floor 70 over finding him already dead. There are things they could have tweaked with the scene to make it better, but overall this is one of those moments I preferred for giving us "more" (in this case, more character interaction) rather than going with the "less is more" approach of the OG. Especially with all the screentime President Shinra gets in Remake it felt appropriate for him and Barret to have one final confrontation where the nuances of both characters are revealed.

The OG scenario also had a detail that in hindsight annoyed me: Sephiroth leaving behind his sword...AGAIN. I can understand him leaving his sword behind that one time in the Nibel Reactor because he is so drunk on the idea of meeting Jenova, but in Shinra HQ he pretty much only leaves the sword stuck in President Shinra as a calling card. I was never particularly fond of that element, Sephiroth distributing copies of his sword left and right.

But without the sword in the President's back you wouldn't be sure who killed him, so what's the natural scenario beyond this? Actually show the death scene. Remake has already killed the notion of a "mysterious build-up to Sephiroth" six ways from Sunday before that point, so I don't feel a loss of tension by showing Sephiroth here.

I also thought it was elegant the way they moved Palmer's encounter with Sephiroth to a slightly earlier point in the story. In OG he is mostly there as a witness to add detail to the Sephiroth encounter that happened off-screen. Remake renders Palmer's role superfluous here, plus his presence may be a bit too "comical" for the scene, but they still preserved part of that OG scene by letting Palmer spot Sephiroth earlier on.
 

a_apple 2.0

Pro Adventurer
AKA
a_apple
I was okay with Shinras monologue about how we aren't so different, he and I. It's the perfect level of cheesiness that the Remake often has. What I absolutely hated tho was the plate drop. Like it has some parts that are much better then what we got in the og but then it has moments where you ask yourself what they were thinking when they wrote that. Like not killing off all the majority of the NPC's you meet in sector 7 is legit braindead. It would have stung MUCH more if we knew that the little girl, the Landlady, Weimer etc all were crushed to death by the plate, and that in the end it was Avalanches own fault.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
@ Keveh: agreed. His monologue was at an earlier point in the story in the OG, but the remakers rejected the "Press Up" scene from the OG in favour of Cloud getting possessed by Jenova and then ending up in Aerith's childhood cell to which she inexplicably has the key. I presume they did this because they wanted to include that artwork, and maybe for sentimental reasons. I don't think it was a good call.
That "Press Up" scene and the overall transition it provided was an enormous loss for the story here, I feel. The scene from the original with the captive Avalanche in the President's office could have stayed without sacrificing anything else they wanted to do. If the "Press Up" moment itself was considered too difficult to pull off convincingly with Cloud around, keep the scene of him blacking out near Jenova the same as it is in Remake, then have him come to with everyone already apprehended (this is what I intially thought was happening there).

Barret and the President could then still have their ideological confrontation if Barret momentarily broke free of whatever restraints he was in -- and that would have maybe even allowed the Prez to look a little more in-character by having him not even flinch while under threat. As it is with the remake presentation, he comes off looking weaker than we typically see him presented while Barret comes off looking dumb AF and Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith come off looking unbelievably slow (in terms of speed) to not have kept pace with Barret as he advanced on the retreating President.

That scene with Barret getting taken by surprise and nearly shot by the President (before Sephiroth intervenes) is both dumb as hell and hokey as fuck. How did Barret let him get anywhere near his desk? Why didn't he have his gun-arm trained on him the whole time so that it was at least a standoff? What the hell was the President thinking was going to happen to him after shooting Barret when the dude's got an apparent ex-SOLDIER with him?

Just the dumbest fucking scene in an otherwise amazing assortment of personalities and character interactions.
 

Keveh Kins

Pun Enthusiast
Yeah, it's not the monologue or Barret V Shinra standoff I have an issue with it all. It's good writing inserted in the wrong place, which has the consequence of making it hokey.

It felt like they realised "Oh heck, we've this great character moment between the Pres and Barrett but we cut the scene where they meet earlier. Also we have a deadline to get this scene wrapped. Nyaaahhhh shit just stick it in here instead, make him dangle, yeah that'll work!"

To be honest I think half of what annoyed me about it was him hanging off the edge of the building, cause it's just stupid. If they'd had the exact same scene except the party finds him sitting at his desk instead, and them he whips out the gun and rants before Sephiroth comes out of nowhere and stabs him, it would just be less carny.

As it was, it felt like one of those dumb moments in pro wrestling where the good guy has the chance to put paid to the villain, but for no discernible reason he just lets the bad guy crawl under the ring and is completely shocked that "hey, the fucking bad guy had an illegal weapon under there and now he's gonna smack me with it!"

I don't like when the writing makes the hero look out of character dumb. I love it when the hero is dumb in a situation cause, y'know, it's part of who they are that they're dense as fuck. Like Cloud completely missing the high five moment with Aerith. That was perfect. Barret letting a man he knows to be a threat and who he absolutely loathes crawl what felt like a 5k to a desk where even the most idiotic of people would assume there's probably a panic button if not a weapon? Not so perfect.
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
Yeah but that's why I mentioned specifically that there's some differences I think that were handled better than the remake. It's true some people out there have nostalgia glases and will always think doing it the OG way equals better but i don't think it's fair to say that's everyone either.

I mean look, we all know how we are as individuals. I'm straight forward with this. Which scene effected me more....

So for example:

Plate fall in FF7
VS
Plate fall in FF7R.

In FF7 it felt much more ominous, it didn't have the ghosts surrounding a certain character, it didn't have weird rock music playing the whole time, it had the president listening to opera music as the plate fell.

So it just had more emotional impact. It's not me thinking FF7R's is different so it's bad it just had less impact on me entirely.

Same goes for the Shinra scene. Walking down the halls with bodies everywhere...leading to Shinra with a sword in his back had a huge emotional response to me. There was just so much less building up to the moment and it lead to..... kinda a silly moment with him on the edge.

You can easily compare things and see flaws. Different doesn't mean bad, if different leads to a more effective scene that hits it's goals better. It's just sometimes it didn't.

I think stuff like President Shinra or presentation stuff like the music during Plate Fall is swings and roundabouts. Some people prefer the cinematic presentation of Remake, others prefer the presentation of OG. President Shinra, maybe because we were expecting a certain thing, it lost impact. I've seen some blind lets plays and they've reacted in utter shock to Sephiroth impaling the President in Remake. So, expectation maybe plays a role. I agree with comments about how him hanging over the edge of the building was a bit lame, its such a tired cliche. It felt straight out of a cookie cutter superhero movie set in New York.

One thing I would point out about Plate Fall and the blood issue, not that you're bringing this up specifically, but stuff I keep hearing people say.

Some people talk about Plate Fall like everyone was saved and nobody died, so its been minimalised. I think its important to point out that this is not the case. Reeves said the sector is home to 50,000 people, we would have saved what... a few hundred? Its small change, Aerith and Wedge saved people and thats great, but they were ultimately pissing in the wind. The scene clearly showed the plate falling on people in the slum too, so we didn't even manage to save all the people there, and the people on the upper plate would have been completely screwed, nobody to save them. One lets play/reaction video I saw pointed out that Jessies parents are dead, thats a whole family wiped out. The Shinra middle management employees are unaccounted for? There were loads of childrens bikes and things on the upper plate too, which are clearly there to paint a picture for whats to come. A lot of people don't seem to connect these little details.

I can argue cinematic approach, but that it was less severe? Not so much, we saved some people and thats wonderful, but compared to the amount who died, we did very little.


I feel more torn on the blood thing, on the one hand it adds a touch of realism to the scene. On the other hand, the presence of blood doesn't make it mature. Blood and gore != mature, otherwise hammer horrors would be mature, except they're not. If anything they're often the most immature films going. So, I feel on the fence about that one.

In a wider trade off though, I think Remake is generally more mature than OG across the board and isn't without its darker, more complicated content. People talk like they've transformed its tone into KH, this simply isn't the case and I think what people really mean is that it isn't "edgy" enough... in that "in your face edgy" kind of way. But OG wasn't *that* edgy or dark in the first place, I think because a lot of people were very young when they played it, it just felt that way.

Also, these days everything is smothered in gore, death and violence, every anime and its sister is trying to be grimdark and edgy. There is also a lot of insecurity with gamers where they feel like their content has to be really grim to be taken seriously, so it isn't labelled for kids. A lot of this I think stems from anime culture.

So in a way, we're at a point where it has to be Last of Us Part 2 to even feel edgy and serious in the first place. I look at that game and kinda feel like this is the end point for that kind of attitude towards games. Where being as edgy as possible in order to appear "adult" becomes a substitute for thoughful storytelling. And I'm not talking about edgy in the way a lot of the 'controversy' around that game revolves around, there is nothing edgy about lesbians, or female action heroes etc. these days. I mean the brutality and general quality of storytelling.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
feel more torn on the blood thing, on the one hand it adds a touch of realism to the scene. On the other hand, the presence of blood doesn't make it mature. Blood and gore != mature, otherwise hammer horrors would be mature, except they're not. If anything they're often the most immature films going. So, I feel on the fence about that one.
It's just a case of less effective atmosphere in this case. The trail of bloodstrewn bodies was creepier than a trail of Nickelodeon Floam. Lol

So in a way, we're at a point where it has to be Last of Us Part 2 to even feel edgy and serious in the first place. I look at that game and kinda feel like this is the end point for that kind of attitude towards games. Where being as edgy as possible in order to appear "adult" becomes a substitute for thoughful storytelling.

Oh, God, let's not speak of "The Oscar Bait of Us." It's like someone took the dumb logic applied to and by everyone in the Barret-Prez Shinra scene ... and then made an entire game out of that.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
You can easily compare things and see flaws. Different doesn't mean bad, if different leads to a more effective scene that hits it's goals better. It's just sometimes it didn't.
That kinda goes back to my original point though, sometimes even two versions of the same scene might have decidedly different goals in how they’re presented and at that point I think holding them up to the same standard can sometimes be fruitless.

I think the aftermath of the platefall is really where FF7R outshines the original for example, but because there’s not much to compare it to then it kinda just does it better by default? So I wouldn’t then consider it a strike against the OG for not depicting it like the remake does.

Whether we realize it or not, everybody has their own preconceived ideas about what works or what doesn’t and those ideas are undoubtedly formed by what we’ve already experienced. That doesn’t invalidate our opinions obviously, because then there wouldn’t be any room for opinions. I just think it helps to be as self-aware as possible of when we use comparisons to make a point, and to be conscious of when our biases inform our views.

Bias in itself isn’t bad, I think. In fact I would say just own it, but know when to pull it back. I know not everybody does this, but I think it happens more often than we realize, sometimes it leads to being exceptionally positive and sometimes it leads to being exceptionally negative. For every fan who’s uptight about everything outside of OG FF7, surely there’s also a fan who would eat everything FF7 related up. It is what it is, I would ultimately say.

Since The Last of Us Part II was brought up, I saw a few comparisons to Red Dead Redemption II in terms of how to handle a revenge story the “right way”, and while there’s a fair bit that I don’t like about TLOU2, I thought comparing it to RDR2 was a silly way to critique it considering the different goals both stories had. Hell, I’ll even go as far as saying judging TLOU2 based on the goals of the first game can sometimes be an exercise in futility when the sequel goes out of its way to be subversive.
 

a_apple 2.0

Pro Adventurer
AKA
a_apple
Some people talk about Plate Fall like everyone was saved and nobody died, so its been minimalised. I think its important to point out that this is not the case. Reeves said the sector is home to 50,000 people, we would have saved what... a few hundred? Its small change, Aerith and Wedge saved people and thats great, but they were ultimately pissing in the wind. The scene clearly showed the plate falling on people in the slum too, so we didn't even manage to save all the people there, and the people on the upper plate would have been completely screwed, nobody to save them. One lets play/reaction video I saw pointed out that Jessies parents are dead, thats a whole family wiped out. The Shinra middle management employees are unaccounted for? There were loads of childrens bikes and things on the upper plate too, which are clearly there to paint a picture for whats to come. A lot of people don't seem to connect these little details.
The thing is that you want to give the number 50,000 some weight and meaning behind it. We were told by the devs that Sector 7 was designed to give off the feeling of home, so there is a special place the NPC's there hold narrative wise.
It should be no brainer that if you want to emphasize the feeling of loss/of losing ones home and guilt for your actions then you kill off all the nice NPC's you encountered there, because if you don't do that you it immediately lessens the impact of the event if you see them all crawling around Sector 7 five minutes later.

Also if people believe that nobody died at the plate drop then it's not really their fault tbh because the game itself makes it look like that's the case. You said it yourself Aerith's action maybe saved like what, 50 people? So why would Heidegger refer to the plate drop as a failure? The game for no reason makes the entire thing much more confusing, I totally get why someone would come to the conclusion that everyone somehow survived, I mean we see Wedge in the middle of the street getting harassed by dementors while the plate is literally about to crash on his head, and he somehow survived so why not everyone else?
That's my problem with the plate drop, on one hand it treats the entire incident with the severity it deserves but on the other hand it doesn't have the balls of the OG.
 
Marle at the very least should have died in the platedrop. If Betty had been killed as well... Imagine, Tifa and Barret crawling over the wreckage, and they find Betty's bloodstained sock and shoe, and Barret has to think about what he's going to tell Marlene.... And Tifa reflects on how Marlene was lucky and Betty wasn't....

But no, all the important named NPCs were saved. Somehow, this reinforces the sense that the people who were killed didn't really matter. Mere weight of numbers will never have the same psychological gutpunch as one face and name you know and care about.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I always go back to how lacking the ramifications of the platefall are in the OG. It literally comes up twice in the entire game after it happens. I do think the FMV from the original has more horror too it than the remake version, but everything else about how they deal with it is superior in the remake imo. It feels like Midgar just had their own 9/11, you don't have NPCs joking about the dust ruining their soup. People don't care about that sort of presentation though, they care about blood and death. The fact their NPC buddies aren't all dead means they didn't feel bad enough about it afterward, never mind how unrealistic it is that nobody walked 20 feet south to the playground in the OG when most of the sector 7 NPCs were standing right by it.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I always go back to how lacking the ramifications of the platefall are in the OG. It literally comes up twice in the entire game after it happens. I do think the FMV from the original has more horror too it than the remake version, but everything else about how they deal with it is superior in the remake imo.

Agreed. And while the scene of the plate drop might have lost some horror, the aftermath of the No. 1 reactor explosion certainly gained a lot.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Again, there were named NPCs who died. Just because people decide they don't matter anymore for the sake of the argument for more blood-death, doesn't mean they magically all survived. They didn't. The whole point of the Sector 7 Pillar disaster was to save some of them, it would be pretty pointless to have failed to save anyone when you attempted to do so.

The accessory item dude didn't make it. The crier for the Neighborhood Watch and all it's members don't show up ever again. The other dude from the Weapon shop didn't show up. There's literally dozens of NPCs who get X-Zone'd if you bother to look.

More death for the sake of it just sounds like peak 2006 grimdark design. It doesn't need to be straight grimdark fuel for true emotional pathos and weight. Nevermind that people died anyways. Hearing the shock and awe from people who survived on the ground, along with the Shinra Guards realizing they nearly died and could have helped kill innocent civilians is pretty damn powerful. More weight and emotion than just a hand of god wave of instant death for anybody and anything.
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
That's my problem with the plate drop, on one hand it treats the entire incident with the severity it deserves but on the other hand it doesn't have the balls of the OG.
I dunno if it’s necessarily “ballsy” for the OG to kill a bunch of people you know almost nothing about and then barely give you any time to see the aftermath of the plate because we gotta keep the story moving, then barely even mention the incident later on...I dunno, I kinda just accept it for what it is at some point
 

a_apple 2.0

Pro Adventurer
AKA
a_apple
I always go back to how lacking the ramifications of the platefall are in the OG. It literally comes up twice in the entire game after it happens. I do think the FMV from the original has more horror too it than the remake version, but everything else about how they deal with it is superior in the remake imo. It feels like Midgar just had their own 9/11, you don't have NPCs joking about the dust ruining their soup. People don't care about that sort of presentation though, they care about blood and death. The fact their NPC buddies aren't all dead means they didn't feel bad enough about it afterward, never mind how unrealistic it is that nobody walked 20 feet south to the playground in the OG when most of the sector 7 NPCs were standing right by it.
That's why I'm saying the remake treats the incident with the severity it deserves, but it lessens the impact of the plate drop by making almost all the NPC you encountered there magically survive.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I always go back to how lacking the ramifications of the platefall are in the OG. It literally comes up twice in the entire game after it happens. I do think the FMV from the original has more horror too it than the remake version, but everything else about how they deal with it is superior in the remake imo. It feels like Midgar just had their own 9/11, you don't have NPCs joking about the dust ruining their soup. People don't care about that sort of presentation though, they care about blood and death. The fact their NPC buddies aren't all dead means they didn't feel bad enough about it afterward, never mind how unrealistic it is that nobody walked 20 feet south to the playground in the OG when most of the sector 7 NPCs were standing right by it.

I agree. I've played through remake 3 times now. All three times, I teared up during Jessie's scene and during Barret's scene. Whether all of Avalanche survived the plate fall doesn't matter to me. I felt the emotion of the characters in that moment. That's what gets me
 

a_apple 2.0

Pro Adventurer
AKA
a_apple
I dunno if it’s necessarily “ballsy” for the OG to kill a bunch of people you know almost nothing about and then barely give you any time to see the aftermath of the plate because we gotta keep the story moving, then barely even mention the incident later on...I dunno, I kinda just accept it for what it is at some point
Seeing your Avalanche buddies die one after the other and later see how people where crushed to death by the plate while the president watches with classical music running in the background is pretty cold and to really hammer it home that everyone fucking died, after that point you have no access to sector 7 anymore, because there is nothing to go back to. I say that's 100% balls of steel.
 
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