r_monk
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- RM
I really do think the only reason the CT kiss is "optional" is because they decided that part 2 would be too early to alienate that part of the fandom.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Oh yeah, it's unbelievable! Also they're posting clips from the game saying how romantic they are and like... Cloud is kind of being the worst to Aerith or being completely neutral in them? And they're like 'oh my god he's so romantic, how can Cloti fans deny this?!' and I'm just there like... O_O
It's like if Aerith is being flirty to them it means that Cloud is being romantic? Even though he is extremely romantically unreceptive in 98% of their interactions.
And yeah they shit all over Tifa interactions and literally only ever use the picture of his intense face when he hugs her (apparently proof he was angry about 'having to do it') and the video of him shoving her away when he's literally possessed. Being like 'see Aerith is the only one who can snap him out of it' even though we've literally seen Tifa snap him out of it previously.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
The cope will be unreal when she makes out with Zack in the next part.
But yes, it seems like a bending of context which is just crazy to me.
r_monk
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- RM
I always laugh at this because like..... that's how that boy looks all the time, literally lol.
Talking about cloud taking Aerith for granted….i always feel like he took Tifa and honestly all his friends and family for granted in ACC…
I hope they can remake ACC…I need a scene where Cloud apologizes to his friends and families. That will give me a closure and I probably will never look into the LTD stuff anymore. Honestly the entire Rebirth is so good, plenty moments for CT and also cute interactions for CA, but every time there is a ACC reference I threw up a little. (I’m still questioning the intention of the back to back standing pose with hand holding scene and what the devs try to convey in that scene)
I hope they can remake ACC…I need a scene where Cloud apologizes to his friends and families. That will give me a closure and I probably will never look into the LTD stuff anymore. Honestly the entire Rebirth is so good, plenty moments for CT and also cute interactions for CA, but every time there is a ACC reference I threw up a little. (I’m still questioning the intention of the back to back standing pose with hand holding scene and what the devs try to convey in that scene)
r_monk
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- RM
Not sure if it counts as nonoptional, but I really enjoyed their talk on the beach in Costa after the Hojo debacle. That was pretty moving, IMO.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Yeah and also he looks especially constipated everytime he's trying to express himself in any kind of vulnerable way imho. It's like in remake when he goes in for the hug lol he looks so bloody serious. And when he gives Tifa the flower and stuff too. He is just a super intense dude. And the Devs have confirmed he tries to be cool and a strong man for Tifa which to me explains his serious persona also haha.
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
The angry pity kiss. Quite the collection of titles this kiss is accumulating. The Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, the Mother of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, the Breaker of Chains ain’t got nothing on this kiss.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
@LunarTarotGirl I think Cloud will never find out Aerith's feelings for him, because he remembered how much Zack loved her. To simply put it, they're a pair now in his eyes, and he doesn't seek much further than that. Zack had deep feelings for her, Aerith still has deep feelings for him despite his death, then there's no need to overthink it. Neither his mum or Brian remarried, so he had two examples at hand of people who never stopped loving their deceased one, and after 5 years, that kind of does it to him. That's also why he put Zack's sword in Aerith's flowerbed at the church, because he saw that they were finally reunited in AC/C.
The fact that he sees her only in the scope of friendship also blinds him. He knows she's grieving, that she misses Zack, and other than that, that she takes everything a bit lightly maybe. And I think Tifa's slightly hurt face as they escaped Kalm is also why he's so adamant in not having a date with Aerith, at least not romantic, especially at Costa del Sol. He takes his relationship with Tifa (and her feelings) very seriously and that affects how he answers Aerith.
The fact that he sees her only in the scope of friendship also blinds him. He knows she's grieving, that she misses Zack, and other than that, that she takes everything a bit lightly maybe. And I think Tifa's slightly hurt face as they escaped Kalm is also why he's so adamant in not having a date with Aerith, at least not romantic, especially at Costa del Sol. He takes his relationship with Tifa (and her feelings) very seriously and that affects how he answers Aerith.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
Spot on. Mysteries are compelling if they're mysteries for both the audience and the characters, less so when it's only a mystery for the audience and not the characters. The 'What really happened in Nibelheim Five Years Ago?' is a great example of the former. Needlessly obfuscating about Aerith's feelings for Cloud/Zack/does she know Zack is dead/what NPTK is really about and the entire Rebirth ending are examples of the latter. Hiding information from the audience that our characters know to contrive tension is something that a lot of stories do, but that doesn't mean it's good writing!
Not to turn this thread into my media criticism TED talk, but I just keep thinking about that ridiculous Hamaguchi quote pre-release where he was talking about making sure they gave Tifa and Aerith equal screentime/quality content or whatever.
My takeaway from that is either:
a) This dev team is a total clown car that equates screentime with narrative importance. (Which is obviously not the case. See: Anthony Hopkins in The Silence of the Lambs or Lily Gladstone in Killers of the Flower Moon.)
or
b) They're lying through their teeth to not upset a certain fanbase.
If a) is true, then they realized that Ch. 13 + 14 were all about Aerith, and were like 'Oh shit, we better sprinkle in some Tifa in the rest of the chapters to balance it out.'
But that doesn't feel right, because none of the stuff we got for Tifa feels like it's just fanservice. Her conversations with Cloud make up the bulk of her screentime, which is directly related to the main story. The rest of it are her bonding with the rest of the party or talks with NPCs (like Dr. Sheiran) who reveal more about her past/character.
There's so much new stuff in Gongaga/Cosmo Canyon/Corel, etc. where the game goes out of the way to show (sometimes having other characters explicitly state) what a inherently good/strong person Tifa is. Maybe it's the devs being insecure about making a normie like Tifa the heroine (vs. a last of her kind type like Aerith), so they're overcompensating to justify why someone like her should lead the game? If so, then woof, while I appreciate all the good stuff we got in Rebirth, man do they not have their finger on the pulse.
My suspicion is that at the very least Nojima knows that they've made Tifa the (singular) heroine of the ReTrilogy, and Hamaguchi, etc. either did not get the memo or they're lying to themselves and the fanbase, which explains all these dumb interviews and the hot mess of an ending.
BUT none of that explains how differently the two girls are treated in the one chapter where they pretty much have equal screentime, Costa Del Sol. If you get all the swimsuits and do both odd jobs, these are what the sidequests reveal about each character:
Aerith:
1) Run Wild - Um, this is about Red playing soccer, but I guess it's a nice bonding moment for them
2) Taking photos of the Cactaur - again, this is really not about her at all and all about the Shinra manager's conflict between working for the company and his family (though I guess you could read something into her being paired with a romantically unavailble man, but uh, yikes)
3) The swimsuit idea "date" with Cloud - the NPCs tell us that she's an assertive woman, and from the "date" we see that she's romantically interested in Cloud
Tifa:
1) Collecting the wheelies - Johnny's maybe girlfriend starts out jealous of Tifa/thinking she's not all that, but throughout the quest, ends up changing her mind and being won over by Tifa's inherent goodness/compassion.
2) Piano minigame - we learn she used to play piano as a child, and her performance saves the day and impresses two generally hard to impress recurring NPCs from Remake.
3) Clearing fiends around Jules' gym - lots of nice banter with Cloud giving us insight into their childhood, food preferences, her skills as a chef AND we learn that her exploits in Remake made female membership at Jules' gym soar, and it introduced a brand new NPC for the sole sake of idolizing Tifa.
Optional, yes, but we learn SO much about Tifa's backstory, her character, and how others perceive her, and almost all of it is entirely new. Meanwhile, we learn very little about Aerith in hers and almost all of it are things we already know??
Like what the hell is going on here? I know Hamaguchi is supposed to be an Aerith fan, but if you told me he was a secret hater, I'd believe it.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, Cloud remembering Zack does change quite a bit of his perception in my eyes. He almost switches at that moment to “Oh, crap, this good friend of mine died and never got to see the woman he loved again and she doesn’t even know what happened to him.”
He’s not thinking about any of his own romantic implications with Aerith at all.
LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
Yeah those are just my thoughts all at once.
I don't think he needs to find out for the story to move forward it was more Aerith that needed to figure things out.
I'm just putting my guesses at how they would address his guilt. Which I think is the next part needed to get to Advent Children.
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Honestly, AC needs a re-write cause Cloud was perfectly happy and fine for 2 years until he gets alien cancer and is forced to look at his own mortality lmao which.... while realistic is also a little callous of him. He was like "Look, the world is saved, I'm with my girl and we're rebuilding our lives together. Life is SO GOOD." .... then he gets sick and is like "....Wait hold on."
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I agree, the date was not for Cloud (who didn't understand anything again and was enthralled only by the photographer because you have these huge questline with him taking picturesque photos all over the world, leading into AC/C where he continues to take tons of pictures...), but for Aerith. She recognised his kindness, but understood that he didn't really treated her like he does with Tifa - which is what she longs for.
I am wondering at the moment if this Aerith is the CoLW Aerith, in fact. Mmh.
I am wondering at the moment if this Aerith is the CoLW Aerith, in fact. Mmh.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Well, I think it’s that in addition to not being able to do anything for Denzel. So it’s starting to compound. Remember, Cloud feels like he “can’t save anyone” the entire film. That, in addition to the survivor’s guilt is believable to me. Mental health issues affect people differently so I can see how he might have been fine one moment but then other extraneous factors brought it back.
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Yes, that too. Ultimately, his depression comes from a super selfish place which is why I like him bc he's heavily flawed BUT it does reflect poorly on him a little.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I mean, yeah. But getting over that is ultimately part of his character arc in that film.
I guess I’ll be the one person that goes to bat for ACC. Heh.
I guess I’ll be the one person that goes to bat for ACC. Heh.
hytekz
Pro Adventurer
I mean yes but that's optional I think? I was just pointing out how ridiculous it is for them to do that because going this way you miss all the best CA moment in my opinion (the photo side quest in Cosmo Canyon is really nice)
LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
PTSD does do that to people. Cloud and Tifa both feel survivors guilt adressed in the novels. They are living happy but Cloud not being able to save Denzel and almost dying plus returning to the Forgotten City reminds him of his past failures and the guilt starts flooding back.
Without getting too personal I have lost very close friends over the last seven years one of after another and as recently as last year. So to me and I wrote about this on my blog I think in relation to COT too. I think ACC is extremely realistic about loss and what it does to people. I acted like Cloud does myself for several of those years and I think it's a good thing a movie about such taboo things as mental health and the reality of loss is a thing.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
The problem with some (not all) fans of that ship is that any evidence that supports Aerith is good, optional or not.
But if it’s Tifa, then being optional is an easy “it doesn’t count” for them. And if it’s not optional then they twist it to mean something else.
“One rule for me and another rule for thee” mentality.
Rin
Pro Adventurer
It's realistic and I appreciate it as a concept, I just think it needs a re-write bc it's not well executed. His feelings and reactions are very realistic, but the movie fails to set the pieces up properly. IMO the movie should've shown everything from the good times after the OG to the bad times so that the viewer can understand why Cloud is feeling the way he feels a whole 2 years later and not 2 weeks or 2 months later.
@LunarTarotGirl Yeah, my complaint isn't that Cloud feels guilty at all 2 years later, idc about that bc grief is different for everyone. The movie is just poorly done bc you need to read a bunch of short stories to get context that the film itself should give you.
r_monk
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- RM
TBH the whole "optional" vs "nonoptional" thing is just wearing me out at this point. I just don't care anymore lol. Whatever the game gives us, accept it for what it is. Go out of your way to avoid certain details to further serve the narrative in your head, then fine. That's none of my business. I'm only interested in the thoughts and opinions of people who actually care explore and dig into everything it has to offer, anyway.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I’ll disagree a bit. Could it have been executed better? Definitely.
But I do think the Complete version does give enough in the extra scenes and some of the dialogue to give you enough of a picture for the story to be generally followed, which let’s be honest… is there to facilitate the spectacle action that happens.