SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

That's if the real death will be revealed in that moment. I'm thinking that's when Sephiroth will tell Cloud he's the one who killed Aerith. The real death reveal could be in the LS

It’s not that I disagree with you, I’m just trying to figure out what relevance that has to Cloud’s identity. Obviously it is something that Cloud is suppressing, but that’s more a trauma response.

If I’m being honest, I understand the message that Nomura was trying to convey, I just really don’t know how it all plays out with Cloud being delusional about Aerith’s death. I’m thinking of how the party will deal with it, just no one mentioning Aerith’s death?

Even if they did, I assume he’ll have the same reaction as when he heard Zack’s name. Cloud also was able to remember Zack when he finally returned to Nibelheim. So maybe remembering Aerith will be similar to how he remembers Zack.

 

[LNK]

It’s not that I disagree with you, I’m just trying to figure out what relevance that has to Cloud’s identity. Obviously it is something that Cloud is suppressing, but that’s more a trauma response.

We don't know why Cloud is suppressing the Aerith's death though. It could be a trauma response, or it could be Sephiroth/Jenova's influence.

If I’m being honest, I understand the message that Nomura was trying to convey, I just really don’t know how it all plays out with Cloud being delusional about Aerith’s death. I’m thinking of how the party will deal with it, just no one mentioning Aerith’s death?

Even if they did, I assume he’ll have the same reaction as when he heard Zack’s name. Cloud also was able to remember Zack when he finally returned to Nibelheim. So maybe remembering Aerith will be similar to how he remembers Zack.

Cloud did remember Zack, but he's still got his death mixed up. I can see them handling Aerith's the same way, but eventually, Cloud'll have to learn the truth. How both of those will be handled is to be seen. As long as it is done really well, I'm open to whatever they choose to do. As someone who loves how her death was shown in Rebirth, I can't wait to see how the reveal of the truth will be done in the third game.

 

[Yoru]

It’s not that I disagree with you, I’m just trying to figure out what relevance that has to Cloud’s identity. Obviously it is something that Cloud is suppressing, but that’s more a trauma response.

If I’m being honest, I understand the message that Nomura was trying to convey, I just really don’t know how it all plays out with Cloud being delusional about Aerith’s death. I’m thinking of how the party will deal with it, just no one mentioning Aerith’s death?

Even if they did, I assume he’ll have the same reaction as when he heard Zack’s name. Cloud also was able to remember Zack when he finally returned to Nibelheim. So maybe remembering Aerith will be similar to how he remembers Zack.

Pretty much the same. They can't keep the whole "Cloud doesn't know about Aerith" very long because... it just happened from their PoV. How can nobody in the team never mention it ever again ? So this reveal has to be pretty early in Part 3.

So that's why I think the best place to reveal it is the North crater.

That's if the real death will be revealed in that moment. I'm thinking that's when Sephiroth will tell Cloud he's the one who killed Aerith. The real death reveal could be in the LS

Thing is Cloud was the only one present during Aerith death. So how can the truth be revealed in the LS when nobody can confirm or deny it ? That's why as it is, it makes no sense to add Aerith scene here.

 

[imach0c0]

Isn't part of Cloud's journey of finding himself also accepting the death of Zack and Aerith since he seems to be currently denying it or suppressing it in his head.

 

[Yoru]

Isn't part of Cloud's journey of finding himself also accepting the death of Zack and Aerith since he seems to be currently denying it or suppressing it in his head.

Well, in OG it's only Zack's death he's supressing. He witnessed and "accepted" Aerith death right away.

It's more in Advent Children that we see his guilt taking over his mind.

So I would say no ? It's more about a journey of self discovery and acceptance.

 

[Sacky]

Well, in OG it's only Zack's death he's supressing. He witnessed and "accepted" Aerith death right away.

It's more in Advent Children that we see his guilt taking over his mind.

So I would say no ? It's more about a journey of self discovery and acceptance.

I still see Aeriths real death being shown once Cloud is fixed same with Zacks when we revisit the areas like forgotten capital and see it play out where it happened

 

[Yoru]

I still see Aeriths real death bring shown once Cloud is fixed same with Zacks when we revisit the areas like forgotten capital and see it play out where it happened

Yup, I think it's the more accurate way to do it. Remembering and accepting their death when Cloud is fixed.

 

[nars305]

I still see Aeriths real death bring shown once Cloud is fixed same with Zacks when we revisit the areas like forgotten capital and see it play out where it happened

I agree. It also allows for the party to also grieve Aerith and not just be a moment for Cloud and Tifa. They aren’t the only ones affected by her death.

 

[Yoru]

And of course I'd like to clarify if any new Cleriths are reading this: We're not gatekeeping the Lifestream sequence from Aerith. We're just saying that this sequence as told in OG can't involve moments that don't concern Cloud and Tifa directly.

Can they change it? Yes, they can. But that would mean ENTIRELY rewriting the meaning of this sequence and changing a LOT of things in FF7's lore. Will they do it? Maybe, maybe not.

My personal opinion is that they won't. I think chapter 9 in Rebirth is a proof they are comitting fully to the OG vision. Maybe I'm wrong. Only time will tell us.

 

[imach0c0]

Do you think Aerith will have a big role in part 3? Or just be non existent until the end like in OG?

 

[Yoru]

Do you think Aerith will have a big role in part 3? Or just be non existent until the end like in OG?

Difficult to say. The fact Cloud and the party left her behind at the end of Rebirth is already an in-game excuse for not seeing her at the start of the 3rd game. I think it's necessary to see her active before the end of the game, as Zack's question needs to be resolved. And she's the only one who can do it. But I think she'll be less present than people may think.

 

[LNK]

Thing is Cloud was the only one present during Aerith death. So how can the truth be revealed in the LS when nobody can confirm or deny it ? That's why as it is, it makes no sense to add Aerith scene here.

Yes, he was the only one present for Aerith being stabbed, but Tifa/Barret etc were there immediately after. Let's say Sephiroth tells Cloud he's the one that actually killed Aerith. How else would Cloud learn the real truth when nobody else witnessed it?

Well, in OG it's only Zack's death he's supressing. He witnessed and "accepted" Aerith death right away.

But, this doesn't seem to be the case for the Re trilogy. He's not suppressing Zack's death, he seems to be suppressing exactly how died, and Aerith's death. It'll definitely be interesting to see how SE goes about Cloud learning the truth of those things.

I still see Aeriths real death bring shown once Cloud is fixed same with Zacks when we revisit the areas like forgotten capital and see it play out where it happened

I think that's the more likely scenario. I'm open for things playing out differently though

 

[LNK]

Do you think Aerith will have a big role in part 3? Or just be non existent until the end like in OG?

Honestly, I see her role being a little more than how Zack was handled in Rebirth. We won't get a lot of screen time with her, but she'll still play a big part. Having a big part to play doesn't necessarily equal a lot of screen time imo. I suspect ZA will have a reunion scene, then after that, they'll be "traveling" together till the final battle. Periodically we'll see what they're up to leading up to it

 

[imach0c0]

Difficult to say. The fact Cloud and the party left her behind at the end of Rebirth is already an in-game excuse for not seeing her at the start of the 3rd game. I think it's necessary to see her active before the end of the game, as Zack's question needs to be resolved. And she's the only one who can do it. But I think she'll be less present than people may think.

I don't think one ZA scene is enough as they have a lot to unpack and it would feel rushed if its all reserved for the endgame. More than just having a "reunion" I think they need to have conversations with each other for character development. So it will be interesting to see how they handle the ZA stuff.

 

[Yoru]

I don't think one ZA scene is enough as they have a lot to unpack. So it will be interesting to see how they handle the ZA stuff.

Thing is I don't know how they want to adress it.

• If they want to go all out with the meta message, she might not even be playable at all. Because playing her "all the time" lessens the feeling of her death, and you lose that missing effect you had in OG.
  
  
• If they want to focus on the game design, that means including Aerith moments as well as Zack moments. So it's starting to feel like a lot of interludes during the main story while there's still a lot to tell with the Cloud & co team.

So it's really complicated. I really don't know

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

This is how I feel. Instead being like ‘oh clerith this or oh clotis that.’ It should be just ‘this extremist shipper believes this thing.’ Healthy debates and discussing differencing opinions should be encouraged.

Ah yes, we could just say "this extremist shipper." Because that won't just lead to someone asking which side they were arguing for I'll stick to specifying, thanks.

Yep. And I’m done. Goodnight folks. Thanks for explaining to me how storytelling works.

Bye, don't forget to write!

Agreed. There are tons of Cloti takes I don't agree with and tons of Cloti fans I don't personally like and therefore don't interact with because they make bad faith arguments and are hellbent on portraying Aerith like the devil himself.

Excuse me?

Thats not something I subscribe to, even if we share the same ship, so I side-eye their takes just as much as I side-eye bad Clerith ones.

This

I like it here because people can talk about things openly and honestly without being shut down, ignored, or villainized.

Even in the worst of times the only people who got villainized by TLS were people who acted villainous. And even then no one was shut out or ignored.

I guess I was just talking about myself a bit, and what I see as an interesting character.

I feel like I can relate to Cloud in some ways, some more than others. So if he didn't have a story of accepting his unextraordinary self, I don't think I would find him nearly as endearing. That's just me though.

This is a phrase I've been seeing a lot lately, and I'm curious where it's coming from. When was Cloud unextraordinary? He got skinned knees from a fall that put Tifa in a coma. He's a prodigy with swords who seems to be taught by experience and observation alone. I'd say to ask the Ravens how ordinary Cloud is but oops Cloud flipped his shit and killed them.

Cloud didn't need to accept his unextraordinary self, he needed to accept that he was extraordinary with or without getting into SOLDIER. Cloud always had the potential to be a hero, what he had to learn is that he's worthy of Tifa because Tifa says so, not dependent on him being in SOLDIER or anything else

 

[Yoru]

This is a phrase I've been seeing a lot lately, and I'm curious where it's coming from. When was Cloud unextraordinary? He got skinned knees from a fall that put Tifa in a coma. He's a prodigy with swords who seems to be taught by experience and observation alone. I'd say to ask the Ravens how ordinary Cloud is but oops Cloud flipped his shit and killed them.

Cloud didn't need to accept his unextraordinary self, he needed to accept that he was extraordinary with or without getting into SOLDIER. Cloud always had the potential to be a hero, what he had to learn is that he's worthy of Tifa because Tifa says so, not dependent on him being in SOLDIER or anything else

To be fair, Jenova cells help a lot with the stuff he can do.

I think the big reveal is that he doesn't have to be Captain America to be someone. He just have to be the country boy he always was. He may have failed the SOLDIER exam, he may be introvert. But he has a heart in the right place. A golden heart that made him move mountains (going after Tifa in the mountais when they were children, Killing Sephiroth during the Nibelheim incident etc etc.)

So I think it's a bit of both ? He's a unextraordinary person who made extraordinary achievements to protect what he loves. And he cherishes everything epic music note

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

To be fair, Jenova cells help a lot with the stuff he can do.

Jenova cells and mako infusions help by making him consistently badass. He had none of that when he grabbed a sword and went full blender on a unit of evil super soldiers, nor when he overpowered and killed Sephiroth.

I think the big reveal is that he doesn't have to be Captain America to be someone. He just have to be the country boy he always was.

Exactly, that mountain dwelling kid from the sticks is enough, he was always enough. Clouds struggle to me isn't about accepting that he isn't Captain America, it's about his sense of self-worth being so low he can't see that he already is.

He may have failed the SOLDIER exam, he may be introvert. But he has a heart in the right place. A golden heart that made him move mountains (going after Tifa in the mountais when they were children, Killing Sephiroth during the Nibelheim incident etc etc.)

The sad thing is, him going after Tifa is where the problem starts, as far as I can tell. Because he didn't save her then, he convinced himself he was too weak, too worthless. He overlooked the fact that he not only survived that fall, he was barely injured.

This is also a fun connection for future events btw, with how he failed to rescue the girl but he tried and that's enough for said girl. History repeats on that one.

So I think it's a bit of both ? He's a unextraordinary person who made extraordinary achievements to protect what he loves.

On this note in particular I agree fully. He never got the official title of SOLDIER, let alone the prestige of making First Class. In that regard yes, he's ordinary, just some guy. His story is about learning (largely through Tifa) that he doesn't need to be an official, super badass SOLDIER to be extraordinary. Who is, what he can do? It's enough. And vitally, it'd be enough for her even if he was just some guy.

And he cherishes everything epic music note

Still makes me smile every time.

 

[SilverSisu]

Though, it's strange because the flowers where Aerith confesses her feelings for Cloud are blooming despite the crack of the sky.

Flowers in terrier world started blooming too. We see this when Elmyra shows them to Zack.

Maybe some worlds have hope after all?

 

[SilverSisu]

Exactly.

And I'd like to remind people: Where and when do we see dead characters appear in the Lifestream to help our group?

Nowhere and never. Aerith's mother to guide her? No. Tifa's parent when she fell into the mako pool? No. Just her memories of their voices, they're not there.
Why not? Because that's not how the Lifestream works. When you die, you dissolve in it.

So why did Cloud see Aerith and Zack? Two possibilities:

• It's just in Cloud's head. As Nomura implied, dead poeple are not here, that's your memories of it. Typical "Always in your heart" type of things.
• Aerith is different of others Cetras. The chosen one. So she has powers other don't have. And she chose to keep Zack close and always with her.

What's telling us ? :

• That the mental image of a now happy and appeased Cloud is to see Aerith and Zack reunited and happy in the Lifestream.
• That Zack is much more than a friend. If not, I can't imagine what a bad person Aerith would be to prevent Zack from "going back to the light" just to keep him as a puppy dog until Cloud dies.

Conclusion :
ZA is real. Is concrete. That's the star crossed lover of this story some are desperate to include. It's right here. You don't have to bring Cloud into this. They're meant to each other. In life as in death.

I mostly agree with you but i have to make one tiny correction. Aerith came to help Cloud and healed him in AC when he was fighting Bahamut. If Aerith hadn't come to save Cloud then Bahamut would have killed him for sure.

Also Zack offered his help in a fight against Sephiroth but Cloud refused. He wanted to kill Sephiroth himself.

It is true that when regular people die their souls dissolve into mako energy but cetras like Aerith can keep their physical bodies and conscience intact if they want. Also strong enough individuals like Zack can do the same. Maybe this has something to do with the Jenova cells all soldiers have?

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

I thought even the cetras dissolve eventually.

 

[SilverSisu]

I thought even the cetras dissolve eventually.

No. Cetras dissolve only if they want to dissolve and give their souls to the planet.

This was explained in on the way to a smile novel.

 

[abzy1200]

This is a phrase I've been seeing a lot lately, and I'm curious where it's coming from. When was Cloud unextraordinary? He got skinned knees from a fall that put Tifa in a coma. He's a prodigy with swords who seems to be taught by experience and observation alone. I'd say to ask the Ravens how ordinary Cloud is but oops Cloud flipped his shit and killed them.

Cloud didn't need to accept his unextraordinary self, he needed to accept that he was extraordinary with or without getting into SOLDIER. Cloud always had the potential to be a hero, what he had to learn is that he's worthy of Tifa because Tifa says so, not dependent on him being in SOLDIER or anything else

Ah, I just kind of worded it wrong.

I meant him accepting that he never had to become "extraordinary" to be accepted.

so basically what you said, yeah.

 

[SilverSisu]

Do you think Aerith will have a big role in part 3? Or just be non existent until the end like in OG?

Big role. Aerith's role must be atleast as big as Zack's role in part 3. It's impossible to have it any other way. Aerith's and Zack's story are intertwined and devs have stated that Zack's role will be immensely important and crucial. Hamaguchi even called Zack a "key character"

Cloud breaching the fate and creating a world where Aerith is alive would fit the narrative of Zack being transported into another world. I think Zack and Aerith will reunite there.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I mostly agree with you but i have to make one tiny correction. Aerith came to help Cloud and healed him in AC when he was fighting Bahamut. If Aerith hadn't come to save Cloud then Bahamut would have killed him for sure.

Small correction to your small correction, Aerith does not seem to heal Cloud during the Bahamut fight. Rather she helps with his attack like every single living party member, in her case seemingly using her Fury Brand limit to enable Cloud's Climhazzard The healing occurs later during the fight with Kadaj.