SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rose Alive]

I always thought the bed in Cloud's office was where maybe Barret slept, or where Cloud slept if he came home at odd hours from a delivery and he didn't want to wake Tifa up.

 

[Hellenic]

Not a surprise, it's Zack vs Cloud all over again. Like Zack Laguna was fun and carefree and nice, Squall was a depressing mess.
I am sure some people like his character but for me he was just Cloud without the redeeming underlying psychology.

I do actually prefer Cloud as a character overall to Zack though, as i find Cloud a lot more interesting and compelling as a character than Zack. That said, Zack is a great guy and i do hope he gets his happy ending, as i did feel bad for him throughout Rebirth.

 

[GamerSkull]

Cloud is certainly more compelling due to his personal story and the Jenova crap he goes through.

That being said Zack is still my second favorite character (Tifa being #1).

 

[Rin]

OTWTS: Tifa implies they sleep in the same room at the very least. Cloud wakes up and it seems like her being there is nothing surprising to him.

Yup. They're literally a couple, I don't get why people fight against it. You don't have to like it but why jump through all these hoops to make them look platonic? Just quietly ship him with someone else! No one cares until people start trying to deny the actual story.

 

[Hellenic]

I will put this in a spoiler because I know some of you haven't gotten to this point in the game yet, but one good thing about Aerith in the end is that

Spoiler

as you approach her praying at the altar she is praying for her friends - all of them, saying all she wants is to save them and how much they all mean to her.

Spoiler

I'm so glad they made her pray for all of them and not just Cloud. While i was approaching her, i fully expected it to just focus on Cloud, which thankfully was not the case.

 

[liuliuliu]

In OG I thought Aerith only connected to Cloud in the party honestly. In Rebirth I thought she mostly connected to Red, and then Tifa.

 

[Rin]

In OG I thought Aerith only connected to Cloud in the party honestly. In Rebirth I thought she mostly connected to Red, and then Tifa.

The OG is weird but Aerith and Tifa do spend all their time together and Tifa has a very emotional reaction to Aerith's death. I blame the graphics and their weird obsession w/ the love interest bait and switch.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yup. They're literally a couple, I don't get why people fight against it. You don't have to like it but why jump through all these hoops to make them look platonic? Just quietly ship him with someone else! No one cares until people start trying to deny the actual story.

I think it’s simply because they feel any acknowledgement of Cloti being canon, means they lost perhaps.

 

[BlueSky]

I really wanted her to use her Cetra powers to say goodbye to everyone.... I hate how Cloud-centric it all is. I know it's his story, but Aerith had other friends, too and in Case of Tifa, Cloud is actually the one who is emotionally strong

For me that's the worst part. Cloud is the protagonist, we know, and she may love him, but...what about the rest? In the og we see everyone caring for her equally.

Seeing Aerith using her powers to say goodbye only to Cloud... I hated it. They could have keep the Cloud moments, but adding a few words for the others, at least.

Aerith is my favorite FFVII character, but...

 

[Hellenic]

This is one of the reasons I so intensely dislike Clerith as a ship these days. I just find that it poisons everything, it's like an an unwanted fan-ficesque insert in a story that is much better off without it.

These days it's not even just the romance, just the very notion that Aerith and Cloud have ANY special connection to each other outside of the Zack thing feels stupid to me. Nowhere in the past two games have I seen anything that hints at Cloud and Aerith even being particularly close. She's too busy mourning Zack and he's too busy with his own issues, being in love with Tifa, and generally sounding annoyed with Aerith and spurning her advancements. That's not to say he really is that annoyed, he clearly cherishes friends and is pretending not to, that's the entire point and rebirth shows it clearly, Cloud desperately wants bonds. But that doesn't mean that the game can just claim Aerith is special when nothing in the game really highlights her as being more special than a Barret or a Nanaki, her bond with Cloud never stands out from the others in the team and is arguably one of the more negatively portrayed ones. But because the past 20 years have ingrained the idea that Aerith HAS to be special we get these randomly inserted moments where they suddenly force the idea that Aerith is special and it just holds the story back.

Tifa lost everything in Nibelheim, then she finally got a best female friend in Jessie but loses her, we even spent time exploring this in Rebirth. She then picks up the pieces, and finds a new bond with Aerith, and now her new best friend is murdered as well......WHY ARE WE FOLLOWING CLOUD!? Why is the game not looking at the bond between the two girls who were sharing everything together? Aerith who was confiding in Tifa about Zack and helping her with all her worries regarding Cloud, and Tifa who was confiding in Aerith and helping her with her worries regarding Zack. The two girls who were constantly supporting each other, laughing together, going on actual FUN dates, talking about clothes shopping, etc.

No, instead we have to waste time on scenes trying to convince us that Aerith and Clouds bond was special, despite them barely talking and him being 90% pre-occupied with his own failing psyche and feelings regarding Tifa. Dude is barely even able to really feel Jessies death and is more pre-occupied with Tifas pain regarding it, but when the story does the same thing to Tifas new friend she is a second thought?

Make it make sense?

Make me me understand why we can't have a nice story where it's 100% clear that Aerith is living vicariously through Tifa and Cloud and has her own story-arc clearly focused around Zack. We could have had a story of friendship where Cloud and Aeriths bond shines because they were able to explicitly show how the two of them support each other platonically every step of the way. By showing Aerith ACTIVELY helping Cloud and Tifa coming together by pushing him towards Tifa verbally every step of the way and helping him express himself towards her. Same with Tifa, and same with Tifa and Cloud helping her. A story with genuine connections that go deeper than just romance and that shows Cloud and Tifa BOTH together with Aerith because of how they as a couple impacted, and were impacted by, Aerith. That show them together mourning and crying. Why can't we have a story that would make Cloud and Aeriths bond ACTUALLY feel special.

I'll tell you why we can't, because Clerith, that's why, and that's why I can't stand it.


Lets be honest, it's not that they're angry they made her character about Zack, that's just pretense. They're angry because they wanted Aerith x Cloud and Zack ruined that. Yet another reason I am so sick of anything to do with Cloud and Aerith.


Yeah, and apparently its barely a footnote, why? Because Clerith.


Yes, and why?.....

Game really disappointed me on that note too. I wanted more of Aeriths frienships and bonds to be showcased and less of the Cloud hard focus for her.

 

[Empyrea]

The OG is weird but Aerith and Tifa do spend all their time together and Tifa has a very emotional reaction to Aerith's death. I blame the graphics and their weird obsession w/ the love interest bait and switch.

I hated that part. I felt I missed out on what could've been more interesting character interactions. Part of why her death didn't affect me too much (or at all, honestly) is because I just couldn't buy that the party mourned over this gal who did pretty much nothing with them except for Cloud. It was weird.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Y’know, I really think the whole debate about NPTK’s lyrics is doomed to go nowhere as long as people are so obsessed with “winning” a ship war or validating their ship’s existence that they miss the point. Whether the song is from Aerith to Cloud or to Zack or to both or to whoever, it has no bearing on Cloud’s feelings and relationship with Tifa, so it’s a moot point.

And as for Aerith, her feelings are described as complex and they are presented in-game as complex. I think people are hung up on the “love song from Aerith to Cloud” bit but are glossing over what the story itself is revealing about her love for Cloud. It’s there, but it’s pretty hard to ignore how she responded when asked about Zack, or how she directly tells Cloud “there’s liking, and then there’s liking…”, or how she spent her last date with Cloud basically recreating her date with Zack in Crisis Core.

I don’t think it makes NPTK any less about Aerith’s feelings for Cloud, and you sure won’t see me try to argue that it’s actually about Zack when he’s barely in Rebirth and yet it’s the game’s theme song. Once we move the discussion past who the song is about, then we can dive into how the song supports what the story is saying about their relationship.

Reminds me of when people heard Aerith drop the “L” word in Remake during her chapter 14 resolution scene and they specifically honed in on the use of that word and focused so much on whether or not the scene was romantic instead of thinking about what the scene says about their romance.

In fairness, this guy is a fairly frequent collaborator with, and simp for, ARUUU. The kind of reach he has is limited to the sort of people for whom facts are merely bumps on the road to be avoided.

I don’t keep up with streamers besides Maximilian Dood on occasion so I don’t know of either of those two, what’s the deal with them?

 

[Maidenofwar]

Once again doxxing and slander of people from elsewhere isn't allowed, there are rules.

 

[insanehobbit]

Zack is a great character but exactly the kind of character people struggle with writing because he's someone who is so unambiguously good -- someone who wants to do good for everyone and save everyone.

Cloud is such a compelling protagonist and an easy one to understand/relate to because the flaws he needs to overcome are so obvious. But where's the conflict for someone like Zack? That's much harder to crack (Which is also why people like Zack Snyder struggle with a character like Superman, lol).

Crisis Core is a great story for him because it's all about the world beating him down, trying to disillusion him. He watches all his heroes and friends succumb or fall to their own darkness. It'd be so easy for him to do the same, but he stays true to himself until the very end. He could have abandoned Cloud to save his own skin, but he never does and loses his own life in the process.

Rebirth with its pseudo-multiverse/fighting fate storyline also kinda works for a character like him because Zack is someone who wants to save everyone. In Ch. 14, he's torn between saving Biggs, who he met like 5 minutes ago, and Cloud, his best friend (who is also key to saving Aerith!). Only for a character like Zack could you believe this to be a legitimate conflict, but that's why it's a great test for him -- he wants to save everyone, but the universe is forcing him to choose.

And honestly, I think that's enough of a dilemma for someone like him. They didn't really need to add the whole Cloud/Aerith thing to his story (but I've ranted enough about that, lol) to generate more emotional conflict, though I suppose his reaction just proves how selfless he is?

So yeah, I guess I see the vision, but as always with this team, I worry about the execution.

 

[Rin]

https://x.com/Anya6256/status/1768554020401033508?s=20

Huh, this is interesting and just made me realize that whenever Aerith prays, Cloud always looks like he wants to say something but winds up saying nothing. I'm now wondering if its because he's subconsciously remembering Zack but he can't put his thoughts into words bc he doesn't even know what/who she's reminding him of.

 

[billy22]

So I'm on Chapter 11 right now, and I won't give my overall, complete thoughts until I've finished the game, but there are two questions I have, which anyone can feel free to answer if they know:

1) In Gongaga, after Cloud asks Aerith if she still loves Zack, she says "Maybe." He leaves, then Tifa goes up to Aerith and they start talking about something. The way the scene is framed makes it seem like something important, but we don't hear what it is. Was it about Zack?

2) When Cloud remembers Zack in Nibelheim, he tells Tifa and says he should inform Aerith that Zack is dead. Tifa looks uncomfortable and says that he should let her tell Aerith instead, because she knows how to break it to her better or something...Is this conversation supposed to indicate Aerith is fully aware that Zack is dead and Tifa already knows this too?

 

[Stiggie]

I do actually prefer Cloud as a character overall to Zack though, as i find Cloud a lot more interesting and compelling as a character than Zack. That said, Zack is a great guy and i do hope he gets his happy ending, as i did feel bad for him throughout Rebirth.

Cloud is more complex, in fact, I'd say that Cloud and Zacks characters are perhaps meant to be judged together. It's not that Zack is a worse character (if you think simplicity is a bad thing), it's that Zacks earnest simplicity is meant to stand in contrast to Cloud. Ultimately Zack is the fantasy hero, he and Aerith both present this more idealistic and magical storytelling idea of the hero and heroine while real life is more murky and complex. That's why I love Zack despite him being simple, or perhaps, because he is simple, and that's why I love Cloud, despite him being complex, because he's complex.

 

[Stiggie]

So I'm on Chapter 11 right now, and I won't give my overall, complete thoughts until I've finished the game, but there are two questions I have, which anyone can feel free to answer if they know:

1) In Gongaga, after Cloud asks Aerith if she still loves Zack, she says "Maybe." He leaves, then Tifa goes up to Aerith and they start talking about something. The way the scene is framed makes it seem like something important, but we don't hear what it is. Was it about Zack?

2) When Cloud remembers Zack in Nibelheim, he tells Tifa and says he should inform Aerith that Zack is dead. Tifa looks uncomfortable and says that he should let her tell Aerith instead, because she knows how to break it to her better or something...Is this conversation supposed to indicate Aerith is fully aware that Zack is dead and Tifa already knows this too?

1: My assumption is this is a callback to the night in Kalm, where we know Tifa confided in Aerith. It's implied that Aerith and Tifa exchanged quite a bit of information there (and at other times) and that Tifa is aware of Aeriths questions regarding Zack, and is perhaps even aware, through Tifa, that Zack was at Nibelheim. This would also mean that they're BOTH aware that there is something weird going on with Cloud.
Cloud explicitly saying that he doesn't know Zack, despite him knowing EXACTLY what happened in Nibelheim, where as far as Tifa and Aerith are concerned Zack was and not Cloud is very prudent information for the two girls two discuss and wonder about.

2: Tifa is aware that what Cloud said happened, didn't happen. So if he were to tell Aerith he'd be telling her a lie at best. It's even possible that Tifa herself had already told Aerith about what happened during the fall.

 

[Rin]

So I'm on Chapter 11 right now, and I won't give my overall, complete thoughts until I've finished the game, but there are two questions I have, which anyone can feel free to answer if they know:

1) In Gongaga, after Cloud asks Aerith if she still loves Zack, she says "Maybe." He leaves, then Tifa goes up to Aerith and they start talking about something. The way the scene is framed makes it seem like something important, but we don't hear what it is. Was it about Zack?

2) When Cloud remembers Zack in Nibelheim, he tells Tifa and says he should inform Aerith that Zack is dead. Tifa looks uncomfortable and says that he should let her tell Aerith instead, because she knows how to break it to her better or something...Is this conversation supposed to indicate Aerith is fully aware that Zack is dead and Tifa already knows this too?

1) Yes. In Gongaga Aerith says, "Guess that proves he doesn't know Zack after all..." and Tifa rushes over to comfort her. Aerith was basically testing Clouds memory and was disappointed that he still didn't remember, thus forcing her to accept that maybe Cloud and Zack really didn't know each other after all.

2) Kinda, yes. We can infer that Tifa has told Aerith her version of the story where the 2 SOLDIERs who came were Sephiroth and Zack off screen. Naturally, Tifa wouldn't know what happened to Zack so their best bet is to see if Cloud really did know him and has some information, but so far they haven't been successful. Tifa is uncomfortable cause Cloud does remember as she and Aerith thought he might buuuut then his version of events is still incorrect.

 

[GamerSkull]

So I'm on Chapter 11 right now, and I won't give my overall, complete thoughts until I've finished the game, but there are two questions I have, which anyone can feel free to answer if they know:

1) In Gongaga, after Cloud asks Aerith if she still loves Zack, she says "Maybe." He leaves, then Tifa goes up to Aerith and they start talking about something. The way the scene is framed makes it seem like something important, but we don't hear what it is. Was it about Zack?

2) When Cloud remembers Zack in Nibelheim, he tells Tifa and says he should inform Aerith that Zack is dead. Tifa looks uncomfortable and says that he should let her tell Aerith instead, because she knows how to break it to her better or something...Is this conversation supposed to indicate Aerith is fully aware that Zack is dead and Tifa already knows this too?

1) Almost certainly has to do with Zack. Tifa has probably related that Zack was at Nibelheim and not Cloud when they talked in Kalm.

2) Tifa knows Cloud’s recollection is wrong. But she’s also worried it might be degradation. She wants to be the one to tell Aerith because she can tell her that Cloud is starting to remember while also making sure Cloud doesn’t tell a false memory.

She’s uncomfortable because she wants to choose her words carefully as challenging him might cause him to have his Jenova seizures or make him even more depressed about degradation.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Ok on a serious note about this, I always found it so funny when people said CT sleeps in separate beds bc there were 2 beds in the room they're in.... as if that wasn't Denzel and Marlenes room. Ah, this fandom is so funny. Then their next argument was that Cloud has 'his own room' while ignoring that his room is actually just his office lmaoooo

There's also a scene in it where Tifa turns to him while he's sleeping and asks "do you love me?" which I assume suggested that they slept in the same bed together and not that Tifa actually turns into some wall-hugging gargoyle when the sun sets, dead-set on asking him questions when he's barely conscious.

 

[GamerSkull]

There's also a scene in it where Tifa turns to him while he's sleeping and asks "do you love me?" which I assume suggested that they slept in the same bed together and not that Tifa actually turns into some wall-hugging gargoyle when the sun sets, dead-set on asking him questions when he's barely conscious.

It’s the same scene. The implication is, she’s sitting on the bed awake while Cloud is asleep next to her when she asks this question… then when we wakes up she covers herself by asking whether he loves Marlene.

 

[Empyrea]

(Which is also why people like Zack Snyder struggle with a character like Superman, lol).

Noooooo D: Not Man of Steel! Man, I was so torn after watching that movie then felt the immediate need to bleach my brain afterwards because I just need to forget what they did to Superman.

 

[Stiggie]

Imagine that FFVII didn't exist yet and this was the first time this game was made and instead of us discussing this LTD crap we'd be theorycrafting on what's going on with Cloud and what happened in Nibelheim and what happened to Zack XD

I'd like to see a blind run of rebirth, but I almost feel like they'd still be more focused on the mystery of who Cloud actually loves rather than the actual mystery of what the hell is going on XD

 

[GamerSkull]

Imagine that FFVII didn't exist yet and this was the first time this game was made and instead of us discussing this LTD crap we'd be theorycrafting on what's going on with Cloud and what happened in Nibelheim and what happened to Zack XD

I'd like to see a blind run of rebirth, but I almost feel like they'd still be more focused on the mystery of who Cloud actually loves rather than the actual mystery of what the hell is going on XD

That’s because there will always be a subset of players who play with shipping goggles on.