SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

That's not Ryu, that's The Twilight Mexican (formerly TresDias, formerly Squall of SeeD): The Twilight Mexican

He was staff member/ admin here for a long time. He wrote a pretty balanced novel-length article on the front page regarding the LTD. It's an interesting read for those who want to give it a go: Only the Evil Return - The Lifestream

(Sidebar: we really need to signpost some of this stuff better on the front page)

Please yes the site really needs a better way to navigate because it drives me crazy every time I want to find something. I could even help as it was part of a job I did some years ago and it’s still kind of part of my formation (I am an archivist/filing clerk).

 

[abzy1200]

“Claudia was describing Aerith“ is back. God, this fandom really is like hell, isn’t it? Just repeating over and over again.

 

[Ryeleigh]

From what I recall, maybe I missed it. No? It was open ended. But maybe the author added something I'm unaware of but yeah the author said straight out she didn't want to be too explicit of if they were a friendship or romance. And let people come to their own conclusions.

In a shonen ai genre series were one basically kisses the other.

So... Yeah. Lol. *still angry lol

And this has happened to me with hetero couples too.

Yeah, I remember Nezumi leaving at the end of the anime (never finished reading the light novels but I figure he left in it too?) and I was curious if there was ever a "reunion" in some other material.

To be fair, as someone who likes implicit relationships more, implicit romance doesn't really bother me. Of course I like epic kisses and romantic fluff too, lol. But if I had to say what's the most romantic story I've seen, I'd probably say Ico, precisely because it wasn't romantic lol.

Addendum: Found a very old LTD post from that same forum, and holy fucking hell, TOTP actually canonized a supposition I put forward in 2006.

Once again, The FF7 Romance Debate.

You'll note I didn't call it the "Love Triangle" debate. That's because this isn't going to be your typical Aerith Vs Tifa debate for two reasons. Firstly, I think Aerith had as much chance as Yuffie, and secondly and more importantly, we're starting from square one- meaning all the girls...

home.eyesonff.com

Specifically that Tifa always liked Cloud but didn't realize she liked him liked him until the water tower. I was technically off by a couple hours, but still.

Reading the first reply to that thread, I wonder if one of the reasons why this debate persists is that people truly don't seem to understand what "debate" and "canon" mean?

 

[Stiggie]

I've always been curious, what would the Japanese say to their family to express love? The ones I know are suki, daisuki, ai, and koi, I think. And I'm pretty sure koi is exclusively romantic/sexual love, right?

This reminded me of a video I once watched where Japanese people are interviewed and asked when they last told their parents they loved them, they're then asked to call them up and tell them now, it's really heart warming since the parents tend to get really flustered/emotional.
Anyway, they used either Ai or Aishiteru, so that seems appropriate enough but still embarrassing.

 

[Stiggie]

Yes, I'm pretty sure this sort of thing happened with Sasuke and Karin.

If you look up "sumanakatta" one of the first results is a tumblr post about Sasuke and Karin regarding the word.

I'm also pretty sure there's still war over Ichiruki and Ichihime, despite overwhelming evidence in favour of one of them.

There isn't seriously still war over Ichigo Orihime right? I mean, I know some people WANTED Ichigo Rukia, but he literally has children with Orihime, not even adopted since we know how that goes, but he actually put a couple of kids in her. If that doesn't end it, then madness reigns.

 

[Lex]

Please yes the site really needs a better way to navigate because it drives me crazy every time I want to find something. I could even help as it was part of a job I did some years ago and it’s still kind of part of my formation (I am an archivist/filing clerk).

This would be awesome, i'll DM you.

 

[Ryeleigh]

This reminded me of a video I once watched where Japanese people are interviewed and asked when they last told their parents they loved them, they're then asked to call them up and tell them now, it's really heart warming since the parents tend to get really flustered/emotional.
Anyway, they used either Ai or Aishiteru, so that seems appropriate enough but still embarrassing.

Aww, that sounds so cute.

By the way, since I vaguely recall some rules about double-posting, I'll just add this to this comment:

Even Tifa can be determined as the masculine element as she is presented in the game as being somewhat of a tomboy with many masculine traits (she is a martial arts expert who wears men’s clothes), whereas Aeris is more of an angelic waif and very, very feminine to boot.

I was skimming the link that Ryushikaze posted and there was another link to a defunct site, and this bit just about killed me. I wasn't aware that a miniskirt and a top are "men's clothes". That Tifa, such a masculine tomboy!

Edit: Oh, right. Still skimming the link, one of the arguments that bothers me is that Cloud was in love with Aerith because -- again -- "why else would he have been that devastated by her death"? And it's just... like, what's the acceptable level of grief for someone you cherished but weren't in love with? If he isn't in love with her, he doesn't love her at all?

It also bothers me because this basically reduces Aerith's character to what Cloud felt for her instead of Aerith being a character in her own right, who was more than Cloud's feelings for her. But to be fair, I might feel that way about this just because I never saw her as Cloud's love interest so it just feels sad to see her character reduced (or so to speak) to nothing but what Cloud may or may not have felt for her.

 

[Sacky]

For the record, that first link isn't me, but I was expressing similar ideas at the time. This was before we had laid eyes on the early dev relationship chart, but Tifa being derived from and representing Tifaret was common enough.

Actually man, looking at that FF Wiki page, we really need to start doing a sweep for "Aerith was one of the first designed characters" because it's just... so not correct. The character who would become Aerith was but she wasn't Aerith at the time.... It's a whole thing.
I already made note of it on the character pages for Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth and Vincent but there's a lot more pages that need fixing.

Addendum: Found a very old LTD post from that same forum, and holy fucking hell, TOTP actually canonized a supposition I put forward in 2006.

Once again, The FF7 Romance Debate.

You'll note I didn't call it the "Love Triangle" debate. That's because this isn't going to be your typical Aerith Vs Tifa debate for two reasons. Firstly, I think Aerith had as much chance as Yuffie, and secondly and more importantly, we're starting from square one- meaning all the girls...

home.eyesonff.com

Specifically that Tifa always liked Cloud but didn't realize she liked him liked him until the water tower. I was technically off by a couple hours, but still.

Why is arguments when I was 6 still getting said in 2024 HELP

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah I was an NaruSaku and SasuKarin shipper and I realized SasuSaku was canon and ship that too now and that was my blog analyzing Naruto canon and fanon before these FF7 Remake shenanigans. Fun.
. But I also wrote about how Cloud uses sumanakatta when apologizing to Tifa in Advent Children and yeah this is exactly why we shouldn't get into semantics arguments because Sasuke's sumanakatta is from a boss to his subordinate and it shows he values Karin but it's not romantic.

While Cloud sounds like he is apologizing to a girlfriend because Tifa is not his subordinate.

We basically can't just say oh look they used this word it's proof because there is just so much nuanced involved.

Shipping in Naruto is so strange to me because while Hinata clearly liked Naruto and Sakura clearly liked Sasuke (all the girls did) romance was sooooooo insignificant to the story as far as I remember. I read the manga as it was ongoing so maybe I forgot. But the romance angle was never huge from what I remember.

Shipping is literally the only reason I watched Naruto. From like episode 2 or so onwards I watched that shit weekly for the sole reason of finding out if Hinata would get her man. I remember arguing with people about this and about how absolutely sickening the messages would be if Naruto ended up with Sakura, who, unlike Aerith, I did absolutely hate with a passion. (still do).

It’s actually interesting. From observation, it seems shipping is more intense in stories where romance is not the forefront. I wonder why that is…

Although I suppose Nisekoi got pretty intense so what do I know.

I never argued about Nisekoi, I just watched it when it was already out, and I quit watching after season 1 because it threw me into a legit existential depression. My emotional health was seriously really breaking because of it so at one point I decided that if a show would make me feel this horrible, if a show was this bad for my mental health, then I had no justification to continue watching it. I just rated it a 1 out of 10 on mal and went on with my life. Did stop watching these kinds of anime for a while because I just couldn't take it anymore. Eventually "how to raise your boring girlfriend" kinda brought me back though. Also stopped watching Quintessential Quintuplets before the same thing could happen again.

Well you're not exactly incorrect. In general suki does mean like. But there are cases where it's used as a love confession too. When Aerith says don't fall in love with me she says "suki ni naranaide". Confessions in like anime and stuff also are mostly daisuki but suki with younger people or people with more innocent personalities etc is also a thing.

Thing is, people act like this is somehow different than in English. But last I checked "I like you" is exactly the same, what it means is completely dependent on tone and context.
Hell, the fact that the trope of someone confessing with "suki" and having it be misinterpreted even exists by itself PROVES that it doesn't need to be romantic, otherwise that misunderstanding can't happen.
The entire premise of "Tomo-chan is a girl" is that Tomo confesses using "Omae no koto ga suki da", and the dude essentially goes "Ahhh, I like you too best buddy"

Another example is in more than married, where Akari in episode 3 straight up says "jiro no koto, keko suki dayo" which is if anything quite a bit more explicit than just "suki", but its' still not interpreted as such by Jiro. Now in this case this was definitely a moment of him not reading the vibe AT ALL. But the fact that even this, far more explicit, proclamation can be seen as just regular liking shows that "suki" by itself without context means very little.

Just a thought --

Something I find people tend to not consider when discussing character feelings in the LTD is that character feelings (whether romantic or not) are nuanced in the Japanese language. Sometimes this nuance gets lost through mistranslations and viewing the story through a Western lens as this is a Japanese story. A word can't simply looked at in isolation. Its important to consider the context of the situation of the word being used, "who" the word is being directed to and the relationship between the characters. Also, how people express feelings in Western culture and Japanese culture is different.

Yeah, the problem is that people try to figure out what the word means and then use that to interpret what their relationship is with the person, when in reality they should look at what their relationship is with the character, and based on that determine how to interpret the word.

I saw the update for Rebirth's performance/sales and it made me kind of pessimistic for part 3, I hope too many corners don't get cut, SE execs can be ruthless when they have to be. It's such a shame because Rebirth is such a fantastic game, a real labor of love. It feels like love letter of staff and fans to me, like I can feel what staff felt and put into each detail and their anticipation for fans.

Maybe they'll cut funding for multiple routes

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Shipping is literally the only reason I watched Naruto. From like episode 2 or so onwards I watched that shit weekly for the sole reason of finding out if Hinata would get her man. I remember arguing with people about this and about how absolutely sickening the messages would be if Naruto ended up with Sakura, who, unlike Aerith, I did absolutely hate with a passion. (still do).



I never argued about Nisekoi, I just watched it when it was already out, and I quit watching after season 1 because it threw me into a legit existential depression. My emotional health was seriously really breaking because of it so at one point I decided that if a show would make me feel this horrible, if a show was this bad for my mental health, then I had no justification to continue watching it. I just rated it a 1 out of 10 on mal and went on with my life. Did stop watching these kinds of anime for a while because I just couldn't take it anymore. Eventually "how to raise your boring girlfriend" kinda brought me back though. Also stopped watching Quintessential Quintuplets before the same thing could happen again.

I hated Sakura too at first but she is actually pretty good in the manga after cutting her hair. As a NaruSaku I can say the anime studio however cut out SS moments and pushed NaruSaku more because the staff liked that pairing. Kishimoto admitted he wanted NaruHina together but wanted to mislead people so he also started pushing NaruSaku with the Sakura is like Kushina thing. This was deliberate.

And as a NaruSaku fan but multishipper I had to slowly accept that NaruSaku stuff was just bait. Eventually I got interested in SasuSaku even though I was also fine with other Sasuke ships like SNS.

I never got into NaruHina but I saw it coming from the beginning from miles away.

However I just realized something about myself while reading this. I have basically never had an emotional moment like you described over any ship. I have never been that invested. I do get annoyed, salty but in general I just accept whatever the creators say no matter how salty it makes me. I also can't say I have ever been so invested that I've dropped shows or anything over ships.
Maybe it's because I'm so analytical and "cold" about this subject is why it never gets to me. And why so easily say well this is canon and go on my merry way.

Like with FF7. I just accepted it and didn't question it. I'm not particularly thrilled about it but it's fine, I'll live.

I also usually just prefer fanon because to me I just find fanon a happier existence where I don't have to worry about such things.

Though I understand the frustration having so many ships not get anything in the end except hints. I don't think shipping itself should make anyone miserable so I agree it's best to step away. Especially from fandoms which make the situation thousands of times worse.

And this FF7 LTD I don't think is as bad as others. CT has gotten so much more than other couples even but it's the fandom itself that makes it so terrible to talk about LTD to the point people that don't get so invested actively avoid it for the most part. I don't blame them.

So what's left is people that get invested arguing and that can lead to a lot of hurt feelings because they're so attached. Meanwhile companies will do what companies do.

 

[eleamaya]

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
ZA was described as innocent/pure (platonniku) at first. However, they were described as having something deeper as time went on and became "irreplaceable existences to each other." I believe Nojima wanted to portray their relationship as something deeper however due to the limitations of the hardware he couldn't flesh them out and started with love at first sight. They are described as koibito (mutual lovers) as well as ren'nai (a deep romantic love).

Both ZA and CT share a strong bond, just in different ways.

In case it was not clear: The aishiteru can work for both given their bonds. I just thought Tifa's line: "words aren't the only way..." held more weight/significance in expressing romantic love rather than explicitly saying: "aishiteru" given the context.

Yeah, I feel like CT sealing their confirmed feelings with kiss (then sex), but ZA with words. "Ai shiteru" is very very strong word, and ZA characters can express it with words since they have no trouble to communicate their feelings, I really can't imagine either Cloud or Tifa do that. I dont complain if ZA also get a kiss and CT get the words, but I prefer distinction of both couples

About "puratonikku", it falls to this trope Chastity Couple
and I think it's forever relevant since ZA are dead and I dont believe in LS sex although it's still nice to imagine it in fanfic.

I love how the two are both innocent and pure individually. Even Cissnei said in her email to Zack Fanclub:

"With all this vitality, you might expect Zack to be a flirtatious player when it comes to romance, but apparently he's actually naive/sweet/pure."​

Aerith's innocence is also what makes her attracted to Cloud as this description on Theatrhythm FF Curtain Call:

"As Aerith searches for the traces of Zack living on in Cloud, the innocent love in her heart will make her destiny's plaything..."​

Btw, 恋愛 is read as ren-ai or ren'ai, from ren/koi (恋) and ai (愛)

 

[Ryushikaze]

Reading the first reply to that thread, I wonder if one of the reasons why this debate persists is that people truly don't seem to understand what "debate" and "canon" mean?

It's entirely possible, yes.

Thing is, people act like this is somehow different than in English. But last I checked "I like you" is exactly the same, what it means is completely dependent on tone and context.
Hell, the fact that the trope of someone confessing with "suki" and having it be misinterpreted even exists by itself PROVES that it doesn't need to be romantic, otherwise that misunderstanding can't happen.
The entire premise of "Tomo-chan is a girl" is that Tomo confesses using "Omae no koto ga suki da", and the dude essentially goes "Ahhh, I like you too best buddy"

I don't know how far you got but the premise is actually a bit more involved than that. He is holding himself to a promise that he can't really let himself think of Tomo that way until he's strong enough to hold his own against her and later her dad, because when they first met he was a sickly wimpy city kid and he wanted to be good enough for her.
Take note, person who called Tifa a tomboy 18 years ago, Tomo-chan is a tomboy. Tifa is an athletic woman but she's just as feminine as Aerith.

Yeah, the problem is that people try to figure out what the word means and then use that to interpret what their relationship is with the person, when in reality they should look at what their relationship is with the character, and based on that determine how to interpret the word.

Context clues are everything. I said on numerous occasions "Stop looking for the silver bullet. Just take the hundreds of bullets you already have and fire."

 

[Yoru]

“Claudia was describing Aerith“ is back. God, this fandom really is like hell, isn’t it? Just repeating over and over again.

Claudia asks Cloud to be careful with the city girls and find a mature girl instead. -> Aerith is a city girl. Period. -> The end

That's even how Zack describes her to Cloud. A city mouse.

And Aerith being mature ? LMAO. Yeah not in this life brother. Maybe after death she gains this motherly vibes. But in life ? Yeah nope.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Claudia asks Cloud to be careful with the city girls and find a mature girl instead. -> Aerith is a city girl. Period. -> The end

That's even how Zack describes her to Cloud. A city mouse.

And Aerith being mature ? LMAO. Yeah not in this life brother. Maybe after death she gains this motherly vibes. But in life ? Yeah nope.

You'd think if Claudia could be talking about a woman cloud wouldn't meet for five years and was currently dating his best friend that her amazing psychic powers would warn her about Sephiroth, since that's what it would take for her to have any information on a girl who lives on almost the exact opposite side of the planet.

 

[Yoru]

I never argued about Nisekoi, I just watched it when it was already out, and I quit watching after season 1 because it threw me into a legit existential depression. My emotional health was seriously really breaking because of it so at one point I decided that if a show would make me feel this horrible, if a show was this bad for my mental health, then I had no justification to continue watching it. I just rated it a 1 out of 10 on mal and went on with my life. Did stop watching these kinds of anime for a while because I just couldn't take it anymore. Eventually "how to raise your boring girlfriend" kinda brought me back though. Also stopped watching Quintessential Quintuplets before the same thing could happen again.

Never read Domestic Girlfriend. Legit made me stop reading romance manga for multiple years.

 

[GamerSkull]

Never read Domestic Girlfriend. Legit made me stop reading romance manga for multiple years.

Isn’t that the one where the other girl just randomly wins in the final chapter? Out of nowhere basically?

 

[pxl_pushr]

You'd think if Claudia could be talking about a woman cloud wouldn't meet for five years and was currently dating his best friend that her amazing psychic powers would warn her about Sephiroth, since that's what it would take for her to have any information on a girl who lives on almost the exact opposite side of the planet.

I want more Claudia flashbacks between Cloud and Tifa. I didn’t think much of her in the Nibelheim flashback in OG but adding voice acting skyrocketed my interest. She seems like that mom who knows you’re not really listening so she decides to troll you to say “you can’t fool me, kid. I know what’s going on in that head of yours”.

 

[SilverSisu]

So question? how much Aerith and Zack do we think are going to show up in part 3? like playable, the writers have kinda written themselves into a wall where they have to choose between impact of death for players with Aerith, and building up Zerith interactions for newer players to accept it. I hope they don't keep the reunion between them till the end of the game and have a chapter possibly for them after northern crater. However, i also hope we don't spend too much time on them since other characters like Cid and Vincent and Yuffie need more development than characters who are meant to be dead. I truly cant think what they are going to do with them apart from the obvious reunion, they will most likely have a playable section together maybe? but where and what would the goal be something lifestream-related, possibly in sector 5 world. Any ideas for what Aerith and Zack playable section could be like or do you think we won't even have them meet till the later parts of the game?

Few, maybe 3 or so chapters + ending fight against Sephiroth. That's my guess.

I bet the ending is going to have Cloud, Aerith and Zack vs Sephiroth.

 

[Stiggie]

I hated Sakura too at first but she is actually pretty good in the manga after cutting her hair. As a NaruSaku I can say the anime studio however cut out SS moments and pushed NaruSaku more because the staff liked that pairing. Kishimoto admitted he wanted NaruHina together but wanted to mislead people so he also started pushing NaruSaku with the Sakura is like Kushina thing. This was deliberate.

And as a NaruSaku fan but multishipper I had to slowly accept that NaruSaku stuff was just bait. Eventually I got interested in SasuSaku even though I was also fine with other Sasuke ships like SNS.

I never got into NaruHina but I saw it coming from the beginning from miles away.

However I just realized something about myself while reading this. I have basically never had an emotional moment like you described over any ship. I have never been that invested. I do get annoyed, salty but in general I just accept whatever the creators say no matter how salty it makes me. I also can't say I have ever been so invested that I've dropped shows or anything over ships.
Maybe it's because I'm so analytical and "cold" about this subject is why it never gets to me. And why so easily say well this is canon and go on my merry way.

Like with FF7. I just accepted it and didn't question it. I'm not particularly thrilled about it but it's fine, I'll live.

I also usually just prefer fanon because to me I just find fanon a happier existence where I don't have to worry about such things.

Though I understand the frustration having so many ships not get anything in the end except hints. I don't think shipping itself should make anyone miserable so I agree it's best to step away. Especially from fandoms which make the situation thousands of times worse.

And this FF7 LTD I don't think is as bad as others. CT has gotten so much more than other couples even but it's the fandom itself that makes it so terrible to talk about LTD to the point people that don't get so invested actively avoid it for the most part. I don't blame them.

So what's left is people that get invested arguing and that can lead to a lot of hurt feelings because they're so attached. Meanwhile companies will do what companies do.

I've had a longstanding distaste for the whole "cutting hair as character growth" trope so that never ingratiated her with me, in fact her hair was one of the few things about Sakura that I actually liked XD. I also always couldn't stand Sasuke or anything to do with him so it's no surprise that Sakura x Sasuke always felt extremely unpalatable to me as well. They felt like two domestic abusers in the making to me so the idea of them being in a relationship felt beyond toxic.

I like stories because I like to live vicariously through the characters, to experience things through empathy. And while I've never enjoyed romantic films I have always had a soft spot for romance IN films, or anime. But there is nothing satisfying about vicariously experiencing having your heart smashed to pieces. Only recalls times where it happened it real life. So when it even happens in wish fulfillment fiction it gave me the strong sense of creeping dread that even in fiction we can't have nice things. Probably doesn't help that in my opinion all real life relationships have been depressingly disappointing in comparison.

I accept what is presented by canon, but if I think it sucks I no longer have any qualms about instantly dropping the show. As far as I'm concerned if you can't even get the love interest right then I have no interest in the story, it can flip a 10/10 story to a 1/10.

Never read Domestic Girlfriend. Legit made me stop reading romance manga for multiple years.

I know essentially what happens in it, I watched the anime of that around the same time, it was one of the things I think that added to my sense of "why can't we ever have nice things? Why do they always think it's clever to subvert the idea of the right girl winning?"

 

[Rin]

I bet the ending is going to have Cloud, Aerith and Zack vs Sephiroth.

This is what I think, too.

Although I would really like Tifa/Aerith vs. Jenova or something like that as well. I'd like Aerith to connect with Tifa more post-death. The stupid water droplet in ACC wasn't enough and it pisses me off to think about lmao

 

[SilverSisu]

This is what I think, too.

Although I would really like Tifa/Aerith vs. Jenova or something like that as well. I'd like Aerith to connect with Tifa more post-death. The stupid water droplet in ACC wasn't enough and it pisses me off to think about lmao

I want to see Zack interact with Barret. His ADHD puppy persona would drive Barret nuts

 

[Eerie]

Few, maybe 3 or so chapters + ending fight against Sephiroth. That's my guess.

I bet the ending is going to have Cloud, Aerith and Zack vs Sephiroth.

I don’t think so and that’s because it already happened. I thought it would happen before Rebirth but since it’s been done there, they’re going to make something really different for p3, just as Rebirth was different from Remake’s ending.

 

[SilverSisu]

I don’t think so and that’s because it already happened. I thought it would happen before Rebirth but since it’s been done there, they’re going to make something really different for p3, just as Rebirth was different from Remake’s ending.

It hasn't happened with the trio together. Part 3 is the perfect place to have Cloud, Aerith and Zack together fighting Sephiroth.

 

[Eerie]

It hasn't happened with the trio together. Part 3 is the perfect place to have Cloud, Aerith and Zack together fighting Sephiroth.

I think we’ll get the living together and the dead together. So Cloud+everyone on one side and Zack and Aerith together on the other side, maybe even Zack protecting Aerith while she’s praying.

 

[Rin]

I think we’ll get the living together and the dead together. So Cloud+everyone on one side and Zack and Aerith together on the other side, maybe even Zack protecting Aerith while she’s praying.

The worlds have to collide again bc Zack already set that up, unless you're thinking there will be another battle where worlds collide before the big fight. Unless, of course, Zack is now in our main world since they deliberately hid the Stamp of the new one he was brought to.