SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

Here's the thing though, Tifa displays immense dedication to Cloud right before the LS, by choosing to spend the last week of her life caring for him, even though she knows he will never recover. And going off of Ultimania quotes their feelings "match". Sephiroth uses it to gaslight Cloud into thinking Tifa is an impostor, so the word has been thrown around in regards to Cloud and Tifa. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but "like" or "suki" doesn't really sound like it's proportionate to the love shown between them. You don't go through everything Cloud and Tifa do, and simply "like" each other, that kinda feels off.


This one? That's a crazy coincidence if so.


So what are your final thoughts on Cloud using it? if you don't mind me asking, of course. Do you think it is being used in the context of a relationship, or is it only used because Cloud is a reserved character? Or a bit of both?


Let's pray that Nojima really does have conviction.

No that's not my blog. My blog ran for seven years but I unfortunately had to delete it due to an issue with my login. I do remember that blog though.

The thing is using suki or daisuki or even omoi or koi ni ochitano would still also be "love" suki doesn't just mean "like" . And that's why I am always careful with these kinds of analysis of words in a vacuum.

I do think aishiteru would match. But it's also a teen rated game they don't really get so heavy on the language from what I notice so I'm just not sure how far they'll go if Aerith's relationship was just described as "suki" as well. Though Yuna does say it in X so maybe they could.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Did other big shipping wars like with Naruto and Bleach have similar conversations?

All I know about Naruto ships is that Naruto/Sasuke was super popular and that Sasuke/Itachi shippers (yes, I know lol) had a field day with Itachi saying "aishiteru" to Sasuke iirc. Edit: which is what actually got me thinking that 'ai' is not exclusively used as romantic love.

 

[GamerSkull]

All I know about Naruto ships is that Naruto/Sasuke was super popular and that Sasuke/Itachi shippers (yes, I know lol) had a field day with Itachi saying "aishiteru" to Sasuke iirc. Edit: which is what actually got me thinking that 'ai' is not exclusively used as romantic love.

It couldn’t be that he was telling his brother he loved him? They assumed incest? Wtf.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

All I know about Naruto ships is that Naruto/Sasuke was super popular and that Sasuke/Itachi shippers (yes, I know lol) had a field day with Itachi saying "aishiteru" to Sasuke iirc. Edit: which is what actually got me thinking that 'ai' is not exclusively used as romantic love.

Once again exactly why we can't just look at the word "aishiteru" and jump to conclusions. Because yes Itachi his brother loving him made perfect sense but we can see exhibit A how people took that word and just ran with it off a cliff.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It couldn’t be that he was telling his brother he loved him? They assumed incest? Wtf.

Well, you know shippers. They love their crumbs even if said crumbs (or ships) aren't inherently romantic or sexual.

Edit: But I doubt anyone thought there was canon incest going on in Naruto. Well, except maybe a few extremes since those always exist.

 

[GamerSkull]

Well, you know shippers. They love their crumbs even if said crumbs (or ships) aren't inherently romantic or sexual.

Unreal. Absolutely unreal.

 

[abzy1200]

No that's not my blog. My blog ran for seven years but I unfortunately had to delete it due to an issue with my login. I do remember that blog though.

The thing is using suki or daisuki or even omoi or koi ni ochitano would still also be "love" suki doesn't just mean "like" . And that's why I am always careful with these kinds of analysis of words in a vacuum.

I do think aishiteru would match. But it's also a teen rated game they don't really get so heavy on the language from what I notice so I'm just not sure how far they'll go if Aerith's relationship was just described as "suki" as well. Though Yuna does say it in X so maybe they could.

Ah, I apologise for my misconception of the word "suki" then. Japanese is a tough language. If they are going to have a spoken confession, which one do you think they will use, or which one would fit the best? Just for funsies, of course.

Well, you know shippers. They love their crumbs even if said crumbs (or ships) aren't inherently romantic or sexual.

Tell me about it.

 

[null]

Brace yourselves… 愛________してる is coming.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Ah, I apologise for my misconception of the word "suki" then. Japanese is a tough language. If they are going to have a spoken confession, which one do you think they will use, or which one would fit the best? Just for funsies, of course.

Well you're not exactly incorrect. In general suki does mean like. But there are cases where it's used as a love confession too. When Aerith says don't fall in love with me she says "suki ni naranaide". Confessions in like anime and stuff also are mostly daisuki but suki with younger people or people with more innocent personalities etc is also a thing.

I mean, I'm not saying that they won't or can't use aishiteru. I just am not sure they'd get that serious based on their track record. They totally could.

And I do think it would match. I think it fits the weight of the end of the world and wanting to be with Cloud no matter if he is conscious. I can also see "daisuki" but probably not suki since suki is like or like very early infatuation. So I do think aishiteru is nice however if the whole things is "Words arent the only way... " Then maybe saying that straight out defeats the purpose? Maybe the end result could be more creative than what I got.

 

[abzy1200]

Brace yourselves… 愛________してる is coming.

Spoiler: Crazy Spoilers for Jujutsu Kaisen

 

[imach0c0]

Just a thought --

Something I find people tend to not consider when discussing character feelings in the LTD is that character feelings (whether romantic or not) are nuanced in the Japanese language. Sometimes this nuance gets lost through mistranslations and viewing the story through a Western lens as this is a Japanese story. A word can't simply looked at in isolation. Its important to consider the context of the situation of the word being used, "who" the word is being directed to and the relationship between the characters. Also, how people express feelings in Western culture and Japanese culture is different.

 

[abzy1200]

Well you're not entirely incorrect in general suki does mean like. But there are cases where it's used as a love confession too. When Aerith says don't fall in love with me she says "suki ni naranaide". Confessions in like anime and stuff also are mostly daisuki but suki with younger people is also a thing.

I mean, I'm not saying that they won't or can't use aishiteru. I just am not sure they'd get that serious. I do think it would match. I think it fits the weight of the end of the world and wanting to be with Cloud no matter if he is conscious. I can also see "daisuki" but probably not suki since suki is like or like very early infatuation love. So I do think aishiteru is nice however if the whole things is words arent the only way... Then maybe saying that straight out defeats the purpose could be more creative than what I got.

Yeah, I agree with you that it might sort of lessen the impact of Tifa's iconic line.

But hopefully, again, if Nojima has "conviction", then just maybe...

 

[Ryeleigh]

Just a thought --

Something I find people tend to not consider when discussing character feelings in the LTD is that character feelings (whether romantic or not) are nuanced in the Japanese language. Sometimes this nuance gets lost through mistranslations and viewing the story through a Western lens as this is a Japanese story. A word can't simply looked at in isolation. Its important to consider the context of the situation of the word being used, "who" the word is being directed to and the relationship between the characters. Also, how people express feelings in Western culture and Japanese culture is different.

To be fair, I think the same applies to Western stories too. I don't think you can look at any scenes or words in isolation in any work of fiction because context is always important. But I do agree that Japanese works of fiction should be primarily considered in the Japanese context.

 

[imach0c0]

To be fair, I think the same applies to Western stories too. I don't think you can look at any scenes or words in isolation in any work of fiction because context is always important. But I do agree that Japanese works of fiction should be primarily considered in the Japanese context.

My apologies if I wasn't clear but I said that in context to the FFVII LTD. But that is a fair point.

 

[Ryeleigh]

My apologies if I wasn't clear but I said that in context to the FFVII LTD. But that is a fair point.

Oh, okay! Sorry about that then.

 

[imach0c0]

Well you're not entirely incorrect in general suki does mean like. But there are cases where it's used as a love confession too. When Aerith says don't fall in love with me she says "suki ni naranaide". Confessions in like anime and stuff also are mostly daisuki but suki with younger people is also a thing.

I mean, I'm not saying that they won't or can't use aishiteru. I just am not sure they'd get that serious based on their track record. They totally could.

And I do think it would match. I think it fits the weight of the end of the world and wanting to be with Cloud no matter if he is conscious. I can also see "daisuki" but probably not suki since suki is like or like very early infatuation love. So I do think aishiteru is nice however if the whole things is words arent the only way... Then maybe saying that straight out defeats the purpose? Maybe the and result could be more creative than what I got.

If there is an "aishiteru" I can see it be conveyed through words between ZA because because of how their story has been portrayed and set up across the compilation. (and what its potentially building to) Though the games did not depict their relationship so explicitly, in the ultimania material, their relationship has gone through almost all the stages of love (based on how its been described): plattoniku, koibito and ren-nai. Seeing as they are in the after life and presumably "together forever," I can see that as ultimately becoming ai. (in the romantic context)

Edit: Also, Aerith has to resolve what kind of "suki" she feels. So that seems like an opportunity for aishiteru. But I could be wrong.

With CT' relationship, its been depicted through a lot of show and tell through their body language, facial expressions and tone of voice for example. Also, Tifa's line of: "words aren't only the way to show you how you feel" (paraphrase) seems too iconic for it to be replaced with a confession through words. Even though "aisheiteru" is a strong phrase, in the CT context, it might be less significant considering Tifa's line.

However, maybe they can make it work.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Like other have pointed, yes it's not only FF7.

But yes... that's why I said a few days ago that we had to stop with the innuendo now. Just tell us what this relationship is. Stop this nonsense.

And honestly if at the end of part 3 they're still beating around the bush, personally I give up. FF7 will be a saga without reel canon and that's that. I'm just tired of fighting the wind.

The thing is as a fan of a lot and I mean a truck ton of Japanese media... Books, light novels, movies, dramas, anime, sentai hero series you name it.

A lot of them are just like this. I can count on a few hands out of hundreds of series I have been into where unless the genre was romance or I was reading a shoujo manga or something where by the end they made any relationships 100% clear or they said straight out hey these two are dating or whatever.

Just a few. Even my favorite shonen ai. I have one series No. 6 where they're clearly 100% in love, the genre is shonen ai it's in the name, but nothing ever says they are. Nothing. No confession. Nothing. And the author herself said she didn't want to straight out say what they were.

So I think FF7 is better than that aleast...

I've also been a fan of so many couples where they literally just never say a word about it but it's automatically implied that yeah they're totally a thing.

But that doesn't make it not canon. And I've just gotten used to that. Canon can be explicit or implicit and the Japanese media I've seen is usually implicit to the point getting a confirmation always makes me so pleasantly surprised even in series where characters are MARRIED by the end.

That's just been my experience.


And it's also probably why one Ultimania quote and the LS scene was enough to convince my Clerith self that CT was canon without needing much else.

Even if it's not my ship, I get it. I'm so used to this. I've been there.

So many times....

 

[Ryeleigh]

I have one series No. 6 where they're clearly 100% in love, the genre is shonen ai it's in the name, but nothing ever says they are.

No. 6! I haven't seen that name in years. Did the characters ever reunite?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

No. 6! I haven't seen that name in years. Did the characters ever reunite?

From what I recall, maybe I missed it. No? It was open ended. But maybe the author added something I'm unaware of but yeah the author said straight out she didn't want to be too explicit of if they were a friendship or romance. And let people come to their own conclusions.

In a shonen ai genre series were one basically kisses the other.

So... Yeah. Lol. *still angry lol

And this has happened to me with hetero couples too.

 

[Yoru]

The thing is as a fan of a lot and I mean a truck ton of Japanese media... Books, light novels, movies, dramas, anime, sentai hero series you name it.

A lot of them are just like this. I can count on a few hands out of hundreds of series I have been into where unless the genre was romance or I was reading a shoujo manga or something where by the end they made any relationships 100% clear hey these two are dating or whatever.

Just a few. Even my favorite shonen ai. I have one series No. 6 where they're clearly 100% in love but nothing ever says they are. And the author herself said she didn't want to straight out say what they were.

I've been a fan of so many couples where they literally just never say a word about it but it's automatically implied that yeah they're totally a thing.

But that doesn't make it not canon. And I've just gotten used to that. Canon can be explicit or implicit and the Japanese media I've seen is usually implicit to the point getting a confirmation always makes me so pleasantly surprised even in series where characters are MARRIED by the end.

That's just been my experience.

There are also a ton of counterexamples. From marriages (Dragon Ball) to couples with children (Naruto), even "harems" like Bakemonogatari have an established couple.

If they want to be clear, they can. So I stand by what I say. If they really mean what they say about ending ambiguities, they should tell us word for word what Cloud and Tifa are in Advent Children. No innuendos or unspoken words. It's not the end of the world to just describe them as a young couple.

They haven't done it up to now, to preserve this kind of balance and not offend anyone. Remake is a "now or never" situation.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yea

There are also a ton of counterexamples. From marriages (Dragon Ball) to couples with children (Naruto), even "harems" like Bakemonogatari have an established couple.

If they want to be clear, they can. So I stand by what I say. If they really mean what they say about ending ambiguities, they should tell us word for word what Cloud and Tifa are in Advent Children. No innuendos or unspoken words. It's not the end of the world to just describe them as a young couple.

They haven't done it up to now, to preserve this kind of balance and not offend anyone. Remake is a "now or never" situation.

Yeah in the case of a skip forward to the future. But in shonen not so often. As for Naruto...as a SasuSaku fan too I can tell you Kishimoto basically never wanted Sasuke to say I love you to Sakura on screen or show their time travelling together he cut it out because he doesn't like writing romance and felt what people imagined would be better to the point Sasuke's gesture to Sakura "better than a kiss" love confession was poking her on the head like Itachi. He didn't want to draw a kiss and that became a whole plot point. How Sakura felt the poke was more intimate...
And only NOW is there a spin off manga where they finally had Sasuke get lovey dovey with Sakura. Finally. And they fight dinosaurs together.... Yayyy.. *can you tell I'm salty lol

Also "you're annoying" evolves over the course as different feelings emerge but didn't help at all in the ship war to convince people for years.

So yes they CAN be clear. I'm just saying my experience shows a lot of creators choosing not to be because there is this idea that implicit and saying less is "better".

And in that sense CT already has a truck ton more than other canon couples.

 

[Eerie]

If there is an "aishiteru" I can see it be conveyed through words between ZA because because of how their story has been portrayed and set up across the compilation. (and what its potentially building to) Though the games did not depict their relationship so explicitly, in the ultimania material, their relationship has gone through almost all the stages of love (based on how its been described): plattoniku, koibito and ren-nai. Seeing as they are in the after life and presumably "together forever," I can see that as ultimately becoming ai. (in the romantic context)

Edit: Also, Aerith has to resolve what kind of "suki" she feels. So that seems like an opportunity for aishiteru. But I could be wrong.

With CT' relationship, its been depicted through a lot of show and tell through their body language, facial expressions and tone of voice for example. Also, Tifa's line of: "words aren't only the way to show you how you feel" (paraphrase) seems too iconic for it to be replaced with a confession through words. Even though "aisheiteru" is a strong phrase, in the CT context, it might be less significant considering Tifa's line.

However, maybe they can make it work.

This is funny but to me it’s the reverse; ZA has been described as pure and innocent IIRC, while CT have a much deeper connection. To me if aishiteru has to be used, then it’s 100% with CT followed by a kiss, and I’m split with ZA.

Then again who knows if we’ll ever get it, this is pure speculation. Though I think a kiss is likely in the LS scene… then again Akira sings that he’s ready to say “I love you”, so mhh.

 

[Yoru]

This is funny but to me it’s the reverse; ZA has been described as pure and innocent IIRC, while CT have a much deeper connection. To me if aishiteru has to be used, then it’s 100% with CT followed by a kiss, and I’m split with ZA.

Then again who knows if we’ll ever get it, this is pure speculation. Though I think a kiss is likely in the LS scene… then again Akira sings that he’s ready to say “I love you”, so mhh.

I agree. Cloud and Tifa is a story of separations and reunions. Throughout their lives.

They were close as children, but Cloud chose to put distance between them.
They were distant as teenagers, but Cloud chose to make his promise, before leaving the village
They unknowingly met again during the Nibel incident, which separated them once more
They reunite again as young adults, but Cloud is no longer himself until the events of Mideel.

They've been literally looking for each other forever. And whatever happens, they always find a way to be together.

So I think we're talking about the deepest kind of love that needs the strongest words to describe it.

 

[Sacky]

If there is an "aishiteru" I can see it be conveyed through words between ZA because because of how their story has been portrayed and set up across the compilation. (and what its potentially building to) Though the games did not depict their relationship so explicitly, in the ultimania material, their relationship has gone through almost all the stages of love (based on how its been described): plattoniku, koibito and ren-nai. Seeing as they are in the after life and presumably "together forever," I can see that as ultimately becoming ai. (in the romantic context)

Edit: Also, Aerith has to resolve what kind of "suki" she feels. So that seems like an opportunity for aishiteru. But I could be wrong.

With CT' relationship, its been depicted through a lot of show and tell through their body language, facial expressions and tone of voice for example. Also, Tifa's line of: "words aren't only the way to show you how you feel" (paraphrase) seems too iconic for it to be replaced with a confession through words. Even though "aisheiteru" is a strong phrase, in the CT context, it might be less significant considering Tifa's line.

However, maybe they can make it work.

My prediction is lifestream confession with words. Then under the highwind dialogue, is a bit different but since the situation is so emotional they cant find the words they want to say and then we get Tifa's iconic line

 

[imach0c0]

This is funny but to me it’s the reverse; ZA has been described as pure and innocent IIRC, while CT have a much deeper connection. To me if aishiteru has to be used, then it’s 100% with CT followed by a kiss, and I’m split with ZA.

Then again who knows if we’ll ever get it, this is pure speculation. Though I think a kiss is likely in the LS scene… then again Akira sings that he’s ready to say “I love you”, so mhh.

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
ZA was described as innocent/pure (platonniku) at first. However, they were described as having something deeper as time went on and became "irreplaceable existences to each other." I believe Nojima wanted to portray their relationship as something deeper however due to the limitations of the hardware he couldn't flesh them out and started with love at first sight. They are described as koibito (mutual lovers) as well as ren'nai (a deep romantic love).

Both ZA and CT share a strong bond, just in different ways.

In case it was not clear: The aishiteru can work for both given their bonds. I just thought Tifa's line: "words aren't the only way..." held more weight/significance in expressing romantic love rather than explicitly saying: "aishiteru" given the context.