SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryeleigh]

I wouldn't be surprised if this is how some think. I've seen this kind of mindset in other fandoms too. ATLA has a sizable fandom that ships Zuko and Katara together and they regularly rant that their ship would totally have happened in the cartoon except that the writers wanted Katara to be with Aang instead. Every time I see that kind of thing being said, I can't help but wonder how people can make themselves forget that that's exactly how fiction works -- the authors write what they want to happen. The characters aren't real people; they don't just do what they want and the author is simply consigned to record it all down like some kind of witness's testimony.

This bothers me so much in fandom discourse, lol. Like, y'all, the characters aren't real.

 

[Yoru]

At this point, he doesn't seem to be acknowledging she's dead. That would still need to happen before the ending of the 3rd game.

You don't need to see the ghost of someone and telling them goodbye to accept the fact someone is dead.

Cloud can't see Aerith anymore for FF7 to make sense.
How can you mourn someone if you know she's not really dead? The end of FF7 is symbolic. He feels her presence. It's a metaphor for the famous “our loved ones are always with us”.

Aerith coming back to say hello to Cloud in “reality” means you're throwing out her death and the whole of Advent Children.

The dead are dead. There may be an afterlife for them. But it's not something we're supposed to observe. Biggs may have had an afterlife, but from our characters' point of view, he's dead and they'll never see him again.

 

[abzy1200]

Cloud can't see Aerith anymore for FF7 to make sense.

What about Zack though? He's presumed dead and in the lifestream, but he met Cloud.

Much to my dismay, it's going to happen in part 3 that Cloud, Aerith, and Zack team up to fight Sephiroth, getting capped off with the same kind of thing that ACC ended with.

I don't want it to happen, I'd rather Cloud stay with the rest of the party and fight as their leader, but I can't see them not going for a similar angle they went with in Rebirth.

 

[Yoru]

What about Zack though? He's presumed dead and in the lifestream, but he met Cloud.

And Cloud has little or no reaction, even though he's supposed to be with his friend, whom he saw drown. I don't think we should give too much importance to anything that happens “outside reality”. We don't even know if Cloud is aware of it.

 

[abzy1200]

And Cloud has little or no reaction, even though he's supposed to be with his friend, whom he saw drown. I don't think we should give too much importance to anything that happens “outside reality”. We don't even know if Cloud is aware of it.

Yes, I'm also of the opinion that he doesn't remember, but the bottom line is that Cloud, who is alive, met Zack, who is dead.

...and the same happened with Aerith. Actually, know that I think about, Cloud and Aerith have already "reunited" in Rebirth, no? Not talking about the ending cutscene, but the fight with Sephiroth.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yes, I'm also of the opinion that he doesn't remember, but the bottom line is that Cloud, who is alive, met Zack, who is dead.

...and the same happened with Aerith. Actually, know that I think about, Cloud and Aerith have already "reunited" in Rebirth, no? Not talking about the ending cutscene, but the fight with Sephiroth.

I stand by my theory that the Zsck he meets is not, per se, dead. He is also not, per se, alive. I kinda legit think he's a Dream of the Fayth/ Shinentai situation, and any Aerith we see before the final moments will probably be the same.

 

[abzy1200]

I stand by my theory that the Zsck he meets is not, per se, dead. He is also not, per se, alive. I kinda legit think he's a Dream of the Fayth/ Shinentai situation, and any Aerith we see before the final moments will probably be the same.

I'd say he's in limbo like Biggs was. Biggs and Zack were both kinda whisked away while they were still concious, so they couldn't have been dead if they were concious.

 

[Xannis]

What about Zack though? He's presumed dead and in the lifestream, but he met Cloud.

Can I ask what part you're referring to where Zack and Cloud met in-game?

 

[Eerie]

I stand by my theory that the Zsck he meets is not, per se, dead. He is also not, per se, alive. I kinda legit think he's a Dream of the Fayth/ Shinentai situation, and any Aerith we see before the final moments will probably be the same.

I mean literally Aerith says they're in between our world and the Lifestream at the beginning of the dream date. So they're not really dead but not really alive either.

I still think the church especially is Aerith's Promised Land and this is how they'll explain that Zack is not in the Lifestream by ACC (something that has always been bothering me).

As for Cloud and Zack fighting together, there's fanservice, but also the fact that Cloud probably isn't fully himself there, he's losing it. All of this sequence will be probably forgotten - it all happens in this in-between world, and the fight with Aerith happens in the Lifestream, showing she is dead (Aerith can probably move between the Lifestream and her Promised Land). The beginning of it is very interesting since Zack has to tap Cloud's shoulder to bring him "over" so they can fight Sephiroth. It's somewhere between reality and a dream.

And I don't think Cloud will meet either of them in p3 except probably at the very end, at least for Aerith, as it was in the OG (her pulling him is a very important visual). But I don't think that would diminish his guilt since it was already like this in the OG.

 

[abzy1200]

Can I ask what part you're referring to where Zack and Cloud met in-game?

The fight with Sephiroth at the end, IIRC Cloud verbally acknowledges that Zack is there.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'd say he's in limbo like Biggs was. Biggs and Zack were both kinda whisked away while they were still concious, so they couldn't have been dead if they were concious.

I don't think either of them was actually 'whisked away' that's just how it seemed to them. I think they were copied, not transported. This is why there can be a second Cloud, Red XIII, Elmyra, Marlene, Kyrie, Johnny, etc. who we all know to be alive, in addition to the people we saw die.

Can I ask what part you're referring to where Zack and Cloud met in-game?

The Sephiroth fight at the capitol. They fight together briefly.

I mean literally Aerith says they're in between our world and the Lifestream at the beginning of the dream date. So they're not really dead but not really alive either.

I still think the church especially is Aerith's Promised Land and this is how they'll explain that Zack is not in the Lifestream by ACC (something that has always been bothering me).

I think less the church and more Sector 5 as a whole? But also I think that all of Midgar might have been copied in the between. Maybe even multiple times.

 

[Eerie]

I think less the church and more Sector 5 as a whole? But also I think that all of Midgar might have been copied in the between. Maybe even multiple times.

Zack keeps coming back to the church so I think that's the most special place, but sector 5 definitely accompanies it, so to speak. I think there are several copies (which is where Zack ended up every time), and Aerith hides in the dream world behind all those copies (Sephiroth mentions specifically "this is where you were hiding"). Although those were the dead!Aerith's plans, our Aerith also has the church as her Promised Land.

The very difference being the guy they meet there; old Aerith met Cloud and realised that their feelings did not match, our Aerith is set to meet up with Zack in the church.

 

[LNK]

You don't need to see the ghost of someone and telling them goodbye to accept the fact someone is dead.

I agree. I don't know if having a scene around that will ruin anything if she is seen though

Cloud can't see Aerith anymore for FF7 to make sense.

Huh? How so? Do you already know how the third game is going to go?

How can you mourn someone if you know she's not really dead? The end of FF7 is symbolic. He feels her presence. It's a metaphor for the famous “our loved ones are always with us”.

Yes, because he knew she was dead by that point. FF7 trilogy is doing things different from the original did though. In the third game, we'll probably get something where he does learn she's actually dead.

Aerith coming back to say hello to Cloud in “reality” means you're throwing out her death and the whole of Advent Children.

By that logic, Zack's death is thrown out? Cloud said hello to him in reality

The dead are dead. There may be an afterlife for them. But it's not something we're supposed to observe. Biggs may have had an afterlife, but from our characters' point of view, he's dead and they'll never see him again.

Who says we we aren't supposed to observe it though? To my knowledge, characters who die can still be seen by the living. Sephiroth, Aerith and Zack are all examples of it in the compilation. The Re trilogy is seemingly leaning even more into that

 

[Yoru]

Huh? How so? Do you already know how the third game is going to go?

Yes. At what point in OG does Cloud see Aerith's ghost? Nowhere. He just feels her at the very end, with her hand transforming into Tifa's. And then again, it's just a feeling. He thinks he understands what the Promised Land is. He wants to believe in it. But he's not sure of anything. Cloud can't be afraid of death or depressed by Aerith if he knows 100% that there's an Afterlife during AC. As for Aerith's character. It destroys everything that is the essence of FF7 OG. Because she's dead, she's been taken away from us. There's nothing we can do about it. I'm sorry, but at what point should I be sad if she's around us and can talk to us all the time? Again, why is Cloud sad in AC if she's fine and happy in her afterlife?

I stand by what I said. It ruins FF7.

Yes, because he knew she was dead by that point. FF7 trilogy is doing things different from the original did though. In the third game, we'll probably get something where he does learn she's actually dead.

As I said, you don't have to interact with her to know she's dead. When Cloud will lose it at the crater and learn about everything, he'll start his mourning process. I don't see why it's important that he sees her for that.

By that logic, Zack's death is thrown out? Cloud said hello to him in reality

1 - It's not in reality 2- He doesn't know at that point in the story how he's really dead.

Who says we we aren't supposed to observe it though? To my knowledge, characters who die can still be seen by the living. Sephiroth, Aerith and Zack are all examples of it in the compilation. The Re trilogy is seemingly leaning even more into that

Because FF7 is about life and death. Because it's a game who teach you that you have to fight. To always go forward. To cherish what you lost but to cherish even more what you have. It's a story about letting the past in the past. If you can interact with your dead, what's the point ? Let's just all die and be together forevermore.

And by the way, Sephiroth is not a ghost. He's literally in front of Cloud thanks to his clones. Or in his head. As for Aerith and Zack in AC. It was never stipulated that they were really here. From Nomura's own words, it's Cloud "memories".



AC staff commentary.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud's issue in AC has nothing to do with knowing about an afterlife- He knows about it from the end of FF7- it's that he failed to save people and they thus don't get to have a regular life.
Also Sephiroth isn't a ghost, yes, but he did resurrect himself by willing the brothers into existence a la Tidus and Dream Zanarkand.
I agree with you he should not know anything about an afterlife until the final seconds of FF7R3, mind. I just want to clarify for clarity's sake.

 

[Yoru]

Cloud's issue in AC has nothing to do with knowing about an afterlife- He knows about it from the end of FF7- it's that he failed to save people and they thus don't get to have a regular life.
Also Sephiroth isn't a ghost, yes, but he did resurrect himself by willing the brothers into existence a la Tidus and Dream Zanarkand.
I agree with you he should not know anything about an afterlife until the final seconds of FF7R3, mind. I just want to clarify for clarity's sake.

I'm just saying that knowing perfectly well how it works and that Aerith shows up when she wants to talk to him is a problem in the grand scheme of things. There's no meaning for me to embark on a journey of self-destruction while your “regrets” assure you that all is well and she's happy all day everyday. I'm not saying that life after death doesn't exist. I'm saying that it should remain something ambiguous for the living. Because what's the point of fighting to live then? Let's just die and join those we've lost, since we know for sure that there's an afterlife and that people are perfectly happy in it.

As for Sephiroth, for me it's exactly the same process we see in OG. It manifests itself in others who share the “magic cells”.

All this to say that people are taking a little too literally concepts that are far more philosophical and spiritual in FF7.

 

[Yoru]

Above all, we're on a journey of self-discovery, a personal exploration of grief and regret. There's a lot going on inside Cloud's head, but it's represented visually and interactively (it's first and foremost a video game) to convey a message or feelings.

It's not because he sees Aerith or Sephiroth that they're really here.

 

[LNK]

Yes. At what point in OG does Cloud see Aerith's ghost? Nowhere.

What happened in the OG is irrelevant. At what point did we see the Whispers in the OG? How about Zack doing the things he's doing? How about fighting a version of Sephiroth multiple times prior to the final battle?

Cloud can't be afraid of death or depressed by Aerith if he knows 100% that there's an Afterlife during AC.

Says who? All he knows, is he will eventually return to the planet when he dies

As for Aerith's character. It destroys everything that is the essence of FF7 OG. Because she's dead, she's been taken away from us. There's nothing we can do about it. I'm sorry, but at what point should I be sad if she's around us and can talk to us all the time?

We already know from ff7, OtwtaS, and AC that she continues doing stuff after Sephiroth killed her. The Re trilogy is seemingly expanding on that idea with it's dead characters. This isn't new

I stand by what I said. It ruins FF7.

That's fine. This version of FF7 is much better

As I said, you don't have to interact with her to know she's dead. When Cloud will lose it at the crater and learn about everything, he'll start his mourning process. I don't see why it's important that he sees her for that.

Sure, you don't have to, but you CAN. Especially since she has the ability to still interact with the living. I'm not saying it has to be done this way though. I just don't get the whole "ff7 is ruined if it's not done the way I think it's supposed to be."

1 - It's not in reality

Semantics. Cloud is alive, Zack is not. Same as Cloud and Aerith interacting in the final battle and at the end of the game. One is alive and one is dead.

2- He doesn't know at that point in the story how he's really dead.

I don't think that matters though. What matters is he believed Zack to be dead. So as far as Cloud knows, he's interacting with two dead guys during that battle.

Because FF7 is about life and death. Because it's a game who teach you that you have to fight. To always go forward. To cherish what you lost but to cherish even more what you have. It's a story about letting the past in the past. If you can interact with your dead, what's the point ? Let's just all die and be together forevermore.

None of that is changing though. Even if Aerith continues to interact with the living, it'll only be temporary. We know that based on AC and Dirge. Eventually Aerith's job is done and she'll return to the planet. Same as Zack

And by the way, Sephiroth is not a ghost. He's literally in front of Cloud thanks to his clones. Or in his head. As for Aerith and Zack in AC. It was never stipulated that they were really here. From Nomura's own words, it's Cloud "memories".

No, but he's still dead and interacting with the living as a dead person

 

[Yoru]

"ff7 is ruined if it's not done the way I think it's supposed to be."

You're putting words in my mouth friend.

FF7 exists. We know about it. There is no ghost, no real interaction with Aerith. She's dead.

I'm just making comparisons. Facts for facts. That's all.

You can love the new version all you want, making Aerith ""alive"" again is in total contradiction with the initial vision and message. I'm not saying anything else.

I've never said she was doing nothing when she's in the LS. I'm saying Cloud should not now about it during the game. They can show the player all they want about what happens after death. Our characters shouldn't. Because dying in FF7 should mean something, and escaping this reality with LS Ghosts and other shenaningans softens the whole dramatic side of the story and becomes borderline "fanfiction"

I'm not saying they won't change it. I'm saying I AM against it. And I'm nobody. No ones care.

tl;dr : I'm not saying you don't understand FF7. I'm saying going with this new Aerith is a mistake imo. That's all.

 

[LNK]

You're putting words in my mouth friend.

Sorry, but that's the way you're coming across.

FF7 exists. We know about it. There is no ghost, no real interaction with Aerith. She's dead.

That's the original. I thought we were talking about the Remake, which last I checked was doing things a little different, but no less FF7.

I'm just making comparisons. Facts for facts. That's all.

Yes, and acting as if the deviation from the original would make the remake no longer ff7.

You can love the new version all you want, making Aerith ""alive"" again is in total contradiction with the initial vision and message. I'm not saying anything else.

I guess it is what it is. It's been that way since AC was released. I wouldn't expect them to not include what Aerith was up to after being killed with this trilogy. They're trying to make a more cohesive version of FF7. Not the same one from 97. I don't see how that's making her "alive" though

I've never said she was doing nothing when she's in the LS. I'm saying Cloud should not now about it during the game. They can show the player all they want about what happens after death. Our characters shouldn't. Because dying in FF7 should mean something, and escaping this reality with LS Ghosts and other shenaningans softens the whole dramatic side of the story and becomes borderline "fanfiction"

How do you know the story will no longer be as dramatic though? Up until this point in the Re trilogy, it's been even more dramatic than the OG. How do you know death won't mean anything anymore to the characters?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm just saying that knowing perfectly well how it works and that Aerith shows up when she wants to talk to him is a problem in the grand scheme of things. There's no meaning for me to embark on a journey of self-destruction while your “regrets” assure you that all is well and she's happy all day everyday. I'm not saying that life after death doesn't exist. I'm saying that it should remain something ambiguous for the living. Because what's the point of fighting to live then? Let's just die and join those we've lost, since we know for sure that there's an afterlife and that people are perfectly happy in it.

Even in AC I think that Aerith appearing at all was due to extremely extraordinary circumstances, namely Sephypoo.
I also don't see why "there is an afterlife" automatically leads to "go ahead and die." That strikes me as wierdly nihilistic.

As for Sephiroth, for me it's exactly the same process we see in OG. It manifests itself in others who share the “magic cells”.

Are we discussing Sephiroth in AC or during OG and Remake/birth?

 

[Yoru]

How do you know the story will no longer be as dramatic though? Up until this point in the Re trilogy, it's been even more dramatic than the OG. How do you know death won't mean anything anymore to the characters?

Because it's logic ? I don't know... I don't think I'm crazy when I say that going from a game where you see a character die and never interact with them again to a game where you can talk to them throughout the adventure like a Skype call... it's not the same degree of treatment of death... ?

That's all I'm saying. I don't know how to express myself “better”.
Death in FF7 is still something drastic. There's a message of hope at the very end, but it's still very ambiguous. The dead are dead.

Going the Jedi way, I just don't find that as powerful. That's all... I feel like you're trying to make me look like an extremist lol.

We won't agree so we won't beat around the bush forever. You're probably right and I'm wrong. Let's leave it at that.

Even in AC I think that Aerith appearing at all was due to extremely extraordinary circumstances, namely Sephypoo.
I also don't see why "there is an afterlife" automatically leads to "go ahead and die." That strikes me as wierdly nihilistic.


Are we discussing Sephiroth in AC or during OG and Remake/birth?

I just find AC even more flawed when we're considering the fact that, from the start, Cloud has been able to communicate with Aerith pretty much whenever he wanted, and that he's always known that she's perfectly at peace and happy in her little corner of paradise. I don't know, I think if she could communicate as well as Rebirth's ending suggests, we wouldn't be here in AC.

As for Sephiroth, whatever. I just wanted to emphasize that it was never a ghost per se.

Again. All of this is PERSONAL intepretation and feelings. I thought that was pretty clear, but apparently not for everyone. So I'll clarify it again. I don't hold the absolute truth about FF7.

 

[LNK]

I'm saying that it should remain something ambiguous for the living. Because what's the point of fighting to live then?Let's just die and join those we've lost, since we know for sure that there's an afterlife and that people are perfectly happy in it.

That's fair if YOU believe that for yourself, but many cultures (especially in the east) believe differently. Tibetans, Hindus and ancient Egyptians are a few examples

As someone who believes that I will be reunited with my dead loved ones when I die, I'm not ready to die yet. I still have plenty to live for. My grandma and grandpa could come speak to me from the afterlife right now, and I'd tell them I'll see you when I get there. I'm not ready to leave my family and friends yet.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I just find AC even more flawed when we're considering the fact that, from the start, Cloud has been able to communicate with Aerith pretty much whenever he wanted, and that he's always known that she's perfectly at peace and happy in her little corner of paradise.

I never got that impression in AC, though? Or do you mean that Rebirth's ending implies he should be able to talk with her whenever possible? Because even assuming that what we're seeing in the end of Rebirth is Aerith's ghost, the way Ifalna stuck around for just a little while after her death but even she had to fade away would tell us it's not whenever possible, and becomes harder and harder to do post demise.

I don't know, I think if she could communicate as well as Rebirth's ending suggests, we wouldn't be here in AC.

I think in both rebirth and in AC we're dealing with extraordinary circumstances and not in a good way.

As for Sephiroth, whatever. I just wanted to emphasize that it was never a ghost per se.

Yeah, he's either a psychic projection, a shapeshifted/ illussion'd up Jenova, or some temporary manifestation using though the J-cells Kadaj absorbed into himself.

Again. All of this is PERSONAL intepretation and feelings. I thought that was pretty clear, but apparently not for everyone. So I'll clarify it again. I don't hold the absolute truth about FF7.

I get that, I was trying to figure out that interpretation of the the events and the metaphysics.

 

[LNK]

Because it's logic ? I don't know... I don't think I'm crazy when I say that going from a game where you see a character die and never interact with them again to a game where you can talk to them throughout the adventure like a Skype call... it's not the same degree of treatment of death... ?

IT's not the same degree, but how do you know it'd be less impactful for the characters? Just because they can at times interact with the dead, that doesn't mean they can do the same things with them, as if they were alive. If AC, OtwtaS and Dirge are any indication, I don't see Cloud not being impacted by Aerith's death. No matter how the devs show things in the third game, it'll still lead to the rest of the compilation.

That's all I'm saying. I don't know how to express myself “better”.
Death in FF7 is still something drastic. There's a message of hope at the very end, but it's still very ambiguous. The dead are dead.

I agree! I just disagree that potentially having alive characters interact a bit with the dead ruins their deaths. Especially since we already have precedence for it

Going the Jedi way, I just don't find that as powerful. That's all... I feel like you're trying to make me look like an extremist lol.

Sorry if it seems that way lol. Definitely not my intent. You were just coming across in such a hard stance kind of way.

We won't agree so we won't beat around the bush forever. You're probably right and I'm wrong. Let's leave it at that.

I don't think I'm right. I just think you should be a little more open to something different. No matter what, the Re trilogy will still be FF7