SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[abzy1200]

I don't think either of them was actually 'whisked away' that's just how it seemed to them. I think they were copied, not transported. This is why there can be a second Cloud, Red XIII, Elmyra, Marlene, Kyrie, Johnny, etc. who we all know to be alive, in addition to the people we saw die.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a little more on this?

If he was copied, then what happened to the original version of him in the real world? Would he still not be dead in that sense?

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, got some posts from a few days back to respond to

Closest you get to that in reality are the voice actors and uh… well, I personally find Zack and Aerith’s VA situation pretty cute tbh

And if nothing of note happened under the Highwind… then why single out the scene? Hmmmm

Because of how notably unnotable it was! OFF COURSE!

I wouldn't be surprised if this is how some think. I've seen this kind of mindset in other fandoms too. ATLA has a sizable fandom that ships Zuko and Katara together and they regularly rant that their ship would totally have happened in the cartoon except that the writers wanted Katara to be with Aang instead. Every time I see that kind of thing being said, I can't help but wonder how people can make themselves forget that that's exactly how fiction works -- the authors write what they want to happen. The characters aren't real people; they don't just do what they want and the author is simply consigned to record it all down like some kind of witness's testimony.

I mean, them thinking the characters are real and there is some magical portal into the universe is extremely worrisome, but would entirely explain a lot of how these people think.

NGL, that sounds both infuriatingly stifling and absurdly useful all at once. It's very Japan.

I mean, it's worse for idols and pop stars, but entertainment companies are often times insane. Sometimes careers get ended over the accusation of doing drugs, even when the accusations are proven spurious.

I'm sure there are a few who genuinely just don't get it, but true CAltists? Willfully all the way down.

And they do it because winning is everything. If their ship wins, who cares what else the fallout is.

In that note, I'm sure Nanaki is attractive by his species' standards. He's well muscled with good teeth and claws, his dark mane speaks of good testosterone levels, his tail flame is bright and steady, etc. Even his injured eye doesn't hurt him over-much, as it clearly isn't hindering him much as a tracker and fighter. Comparing him to Seto he just needs to fill out a bit as he grows up, and he's likely a looker to others of his kind. He ticks the boxes for physical fitness in wild carnivores very well, with his appearance being a giant billboard of honest indicators.

And we do know he finds his mate in the end.

This. It'd be so easy and not terribly more expensive, and they chose not to take advantage there. Because 012 is there to say "no Cloud isn't looking for Aerith, it's Tifa, it's always been Tifa."

Almost like they were sending a message.

They took the picture.

Very clever weasels.

A good twist, as we've discussed, should please both sides of the coin. The satisfaction of saying "I knew it" in the moment, or the "no way!" of the twist catching you by surprise, both of whom can now look back on the hints and enjoy them dearly.

Exactly. Bad twists are badly foreshadowed, with very weak leadup. Good twists have strong but well hidden leadup.

Yeah, that's pretty much just an attempt to bury Tifa in salt. Again, there undoubtedly are people out there that legit don't find Tifa interesting and engaging, and that's fine. It's when they claim such should be the universal truth if all and demand Aerith get the extra screentime/attention that it becomes CAltist behavior.

It's a sort of sour grapes meets motte/ bailey? They really want X for their side, but side Y has it. So they try and diminish what side Y has so they can occupy it on the sly. Like negging someone else's girlfriend, but in the bizarre hope that he'll dump her and you can date her instead.

The moment it occured to me that a trainer with a single well trained Pokemon could probably tear Apeture to pieces in their way out if they deal with the deadly neurotoxin first.

Depending on the pokemon the neurotoxin might just be a boon.

If course, that makes me remember that there's no logical reason GLADoS didn't flood the facility as soon as Chell escaped the resting track in Portal 2, long before she could bring neurotoxin levels to dangerously nonlethal levels.

I suspect the neurotoxin trick only works in fairly well isolated areas of the otherwise very vast facility which is also falling apart. Had to wait for the right moment.

Well then, science will make due.

A scientist is like a cat and aperture science is like a box, right?

Oh? Which one was that? Cause it's difficult to imagine Anastar seeming more unhinged.

The one at the bottom of that post, but you saw it already.

Might be worth checking, even tiny rural libraries can surprise ya.

If not, you can always Yar Har me matey.

Precisely.

Precise too, when it can be managed.

I forget where roughly you're even located I really hate travelling as of my two cross country migrations. Still, tempting if ever I had cash free for plane tickets to make someone else do it and do it faster.

NC, so opposite coast.

Frequency may be more indicative, but do remember severity definitely biases the memory towards the worst takes.

Both need to be taken into account, but a pattern of behavior is more distressing than a one off, basically.

CT clicks like a perfectly machined set of parts coming together. CA clicks like the chambers on a revolver what have no bullets.

And also the cylinder is misaligned because it's supposed to go with a different model.

It's just silly, since blocking CT doesn't make CAltists right, even if they convince newbs or casuals they still know themselves that they are wrong.

It's like people playing online shooters with aimbot. Even if you dominate, you didn't really win. I don't see the point if either.

Convincing others is how they self soothe, basically. It's a coping strategy.

50+ years is too much LTD. Way too much.

I mean 13 was too much and here we are 14 years later.

Kill it with fire?

Can you kill what was never truly alive?

Coming from most people a "characters acting as if they're real and acting out their own story" thing would be a joke. Coming from Anastar, who I remember as utterly humorless, it's concerning. Her mental state may be worsening.

And that was apparently 7 years ago.

Instead of creating a false persona they create a false narrative, genius.


I managed to forget people are like that, why do you have to remind me?!


Although that "Save her...save my friend" line probably set us back a bit, Dissidia when evaluated is definitely CT.

Not really, depending on when in his personal timeline this Cloud is? He might not yet know what He means to Tifa, and may not want to therefore burden Cosmos with it when the important part is him fighting a fucking god in the hope of saving her then begging another god to intervene when he fails.

[quiote]I'm aware what's said there is "nakama", but what do they make of it? Anyway, yeah, I might even argue that Aerith is fanservice in part 3 of the re;trilogy, part of me thinks all this multiversal stuff was thought up to include Aerith more in the story.

Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, who knows.

What did they make of ACC removing Aerith from the credits? Going off of this, probably not very well.[/quote]
Yeah, a lot of them didn't like it. Granted, a lot of non shippers didn't either, but there were unhinged rants about "Clotis complained so it was changed." In which case, wow, that's a lot of fucking pull that side of the fandom has.

But wait! What about her childhood friend Zack!

This LTD just got a whole lot bigger...

Yeah, this is why I saw they want you to see Aerith date the most, it's basically her last non-spiritual moment with Cloud before she croaks.

And it's also why I've always thought Clerith was bait, bait so good that people are still falling hook, line, and sinker for it 27 years later. 30 by the time they're faced with the method behind the magic.

Aerith herself is bait, even if you don't do her date. And I don't mean this in a bad way, but she's the bright happy peppy woman who everyone gets along with and who promises to come right back and then SHANK MURDER.

Yeah, if it's one thing I've noticed it's that Cleriths are directly unwilling to properly engage with the story and characters out of what really seems like jealousy.

Seriously, every time somebody speaks good about Tifa, they get accused and harassed. IIRC they did to MaximillianDood when he was playing through the game and said that Tifa was the secondary protagonist.

Admitting Tifa is one of the game's Heroines is like kryptonite to them. And then they go around accusing everyone else of saying that Aerith isn't a heroine. ECAIAC, etc.

I've always seen it that Aerith was trying to move on from Zack with Cloud, but because they were uncannily similar it made it very hard for her. Sort of a two steps forward, one step back situation.

Essentially, yes.

Going back to what MaximillianDood said, Tifa really is much more suited to be called a secondary protagonist than Aerith, that's why it always annoys me seeing people say that "this is a game between Cloud, Aerith, and Sephiroth"...how? Aerith is completely missing from the latter half of the game. Guess who is actually present for the latter half of the game?

The game- especially now in the remake- has two heros and two heroines. I mean just look at the box art. And hey, wouldn't you know it, they've sorted the heroes and the heroines together.

This image is so funny I actually went looking for it to post here but couldn't find it, and yeah I think it is from Anastar.

And something else about characters not being real, I think it's Hirohiko Araki who seems to think that he doesn't really have free reign to do what he wants with his characters...they just characterise themselves. Strange.

When writers say this it's because the creators have such a complete picture of their creation in mind that it basically writes itself. It's not that the characters are distinct entities, but they are complete and complex creations of the mind.

and also, damn right Nojima and Kitase won't be happy about it! You're fucking up their story!

I can't imagine Nomura's all that happy about it either, given Tifa's design was very much one of his babies.

---------
Also, I want people who say Crisis Core isn't canon to the re;trilogy to ask themselves where Zack got the buster sword.

A box of cracker jacks, right?

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a little more on this?

If he was copied, then what happened to the original version of him in the real world? Would he still not be dead in that sense?

The Zack that our Cloud was with, he is dead.

The Zack of the various worlds is not dead. But he is a copy of Zack rather than the same one. But again so are the Elmyra, Marlene, Kyrie, Johnny, Etc of those worlds, and all those people are still alive in the main world.

Is this making sense? I can make a shitty paint diagram if you like.



Oh, BTW, the current push on twitter from the CA side about "Yamazaki-san said Aerith is the heroine that means she's the canon Rosa thus her date is canon" is an amazing example of the Motte and Bailey tactic because it is being fronted by the exact same people who just yesterday were asserting that all the dates were irrelevant and not related to canon at all.

 

[pxl_pushr]

“All the dates are optional but the one I ship is real because reasons” is a comical way to think.

Also, I genuinely think some people believe a story can only have one hero, one heroine, and an antagonist is the same as a villain. These words, they keep using them. I don’t think they mean what they think they mean.

 

[Ryushikaze]

“All the dates are optional but the one I ship is real because reasons” is a comical way to think.

What's actually hilarious about all of this brouhaha is that for many many years, my official stance on the dates was that Tifa's date was the one with indica that it was "continuity" in that the song "Words interrupted by fireworks" both matched Tifa's melody and the name of the song best matched her date, but that all the dates were 'canon', that all of them told us how Cloud would interact should the people involved come knock on his door. I even said that there was basically no reason (In the OG, mind) that all of them couldn't have happened on the same night, assuming you did something about Cait Sith and the keystone sequence.

Now the issue is figuring out why they put on Loveless so many times a night.

 

[pxl_pushr]

What's actually hilarious about all of this brouhaha is that for many many years, my official stance on the dates was that Tifa's date was the one with indica that it was "continuity" in that the song "Words interrupted by fireworks" both matched Tifa's melody and the name of the song best matched her date, but that all the dates were 'canon', that all of them told us how Cloud would interact should the people involved come knock on his door. I even said that there was basically no reason (In the OG, mind) that all of them couldn't have happened on the same night, assuming you did something about Cait Sith and the keystone sequence.

Now the issue is figuring out why they put on Loveless so many times a night.

Dio and Andrea just won’t let Cloud rest me thinks. Considering how weird his dreams are, I don’t blame Cloud for burning the midnight oil to keep the Loveless ticket sales flowing.

 

[abzy1200]

What's actually hilarious about all of this brouhaha is that for many many years, my official stance on the dates was that Tifa's date was the one with indica that it was "continuity" in that the song "Words interrupted by fireworks" both matched Tifa's melody and the name of the song best matched her date,

Isn't there also a quote out there that says something along the lines of "Tifa has trouble expressing her feelings for Cloud, but she is able to do so more easily now"?

Not really, depending on when in his personal timeline this Cloud is? He might not yet know what He means to Tifa, and may not want to therefore burden Cosmos with it when the important part is him fighting a fucking god in the hope of saving her then begging another god to intervene when he fails.

Game actually couldn't be less Clerith if it tried.

Yeah, a lot of them didn't like it. Granted, a lot of non shippers didn't either, but there were unhinged rants about "Clotis complained so it was changed." In which case, wow, that's a lot of fucking pull that side of the fandom has.

History repeats itself...

Aerith herself is bait, even if you don't do her date. And I don't mean this in a bad way, but she's the bright happy peppy woman who everyone gets along with and who promises to come right back and then SHANK MURDER.

Yeah, she's always existed first and foremost to pull on your heartstrings, it was a very, very early decision to have her die, wasn't it?

Admitting Tifa is one of the game's Heroines is like kryptonite to them. And then they go around accusing everyone else of saying that Aerith isn't a heroine. ECAIAC, etc.

It's a classic case of punching down instead of punching up. Ruining Tifa's reputation will somehow elevate Aerith.

The game- especially now in the remake- has two heros and two heroines. I mean just look at the box art. And hey, wouldn't you know it, they've sorted the heroes and the heroines together.

Rebirth's box art is very intriguing to me. It might be the most obvious they've been with their intentions in a while.

"We all know that alternate box art was made in 5 minutes" - something I've had said to me.

Actually, Nomura himself gave importance to it, no? IIRC, he said somthing along the lines of "It represents the different worlds"

When writers say this it's because the creators have such a complete picture of their creation in mind that it basically writes itself. It's not that the characters are distinct entities, but they are complete and complex creations of the mind.

Yeah, it's an interesting way to look at things, though.

I can't imagine Nomura's all that happy about it either, given Tifa's design was very much one of his babies.

Nomura designed basically the whole cast, no? Besides Zack that was Nojima, I think.

And this is something else I think of when people make ridiculous, hateful arguments. Like, why do these people think the devs are just going to insult characters to such a degree when said characters are basically their success story?

A box of cracker jacks, right?

You might have been able to play dumb and say that the buster sword was just a sword they gave out to SOLDIERs at the time of the original, but after Rebirth, where we have the reporter say that the criminal they're looking for has the buster sword, and that we've seen multiple SOLDIERs in game (excluding Crisis Core), and none of them have a buster sword, it's gonna be a bit harder to do that.

The Zack that our Cloud was with, he is dead.

The Zack of the various worlds is not dead. But he is a copy of Zack rather than the same one. But again so are the Elmyra, Marlene, Kyrie, Johnny, Etc of those worlds, and all those people are still alive in the main world.

Is this making sense? I can make a shitty paint diagram if you like.

No, that makes sense, thanks.

Oh, BTW, the current push on twitter from the CA side about "Yamazaki-san said Aerith is the heroine that means she's the canon Rosa thus her date is canon" is an amazing example of the Motte and Bailey tactic because it is being fronted by the exact same people who just yesterday were asserting that all the dates were irrelevant and not related to canon at all.

And it's not even what he said.

“All the dates are optional but the one I ship is real because reasons” is a comical way to think.

And it's irrelevant too, most people saw Tifa's date, so now the bar has been set. All the routes are meant to organically link up to the story in part 3, and just from that I can guarantee to everybody with my whole chest out that Aerith will not be getting a kiss in part 3, and will not feature in a romantic subplot between her and Cloud, for fear of characterising Cloud as a complete fucking dickhead to the majority of people who will be playing part 3.

 

[Eerie]

Aerith will not be getting a kiss in part 3

At least not with Cloud, I know a few Zerith who are hoping though! I think there will be at least a hug? There should definitely be, as well as a discussion about her feelings for Cloud because no one wants to think Zack is only second best now.

 

[Yoru]

We already talked about Cloti battle lines but Zerith have some close/common ones too

x.com

x.com

they're both kids, I love them

 

[abzy1200]

At least not with Cloud, I know a few Zerith who are hoping though! I think there will be at least a hug? There should definitely be, as well as a discussion about her feelings for Cloud because no one wants to think Zack is only second best now.

Eh, I definitely see a heartwarming moment between them, such as a hug, but if Aerith is only going to have as much screentime in part 3 as Zack did in Rebirth, then I fail to see how they could pull off a kiss without it confusing people. I'd love to see them pull it off, but I'll reel in my
expectations.

And looping back around to Zack, I want to bring up this moment for a second:



I vaguely remember somebody mentioning that an Ultimania passage brought attention to this, and that it might have been a sentiment she was telling herself aswell. So uh, am I crazy or not? does this passage actually exist?

 

[Eerie]

Eh, I definitely see a heartwarming moment between them, such as a hug, but if Aerith is only going to have as much screentime in part 3 as Zack did in Rebirth, then I fail to see how they could pull off a kiss without it confusing people. I'd love to see them pull it off, but I'll reel in my

I don't understand how that would be confusing though?

I vaguely remember somebody mentioning that an Ultimania passage brought attention to this, and that it might have been a sentiment she was telling herself aswell. So uh, am I crazy or not? does this passage actually exist?

It's not in an Ultimania, but Toriyama did say this in an interview:

 

[abzy1200]

I don't understand how that would be confusing though?

Confusing to the casual audience, aka the majority playing the game.

I say it would be confusing because people have spend nearly 30 years thinking Aerith was in love with Cloud, and truth be told she was until it was retconned in the re;trilogy.

It's not in an Ultimania, but Toriyama did say this in an interview:

Thank you, just had to know if I was crazy, and yeah, this is the kind of retconning I previously mentioned, she might have developed feelings for him, and vice versa, but do they really?

 

[Yoru]

Confusing to the casual audience, aka the majority playing the game.

I say it would be confusing because people have spend nearly 30 years thinking Aerith was in love with Cloud, and truth be told she was until it was retconned in the re;trilogy.

Thank you, just had to know if I was crazy, and yeah, this is the kind of retconning I previously mentioned, she might have developed feelings for him, and vice versa, but do they really?

Toriyama makes it clear that her words and thoughts are not necessarily linked. She knows that everything is an illusion. Cloud already loves someone. He's not himself. And she, for her part, loves a "fake" Cloud. But that doesn't stop her from loving him after all.

That's why she's so conflicted throughout the trilogy (until maybe she finds Zack). Her brain tells her one thing, her heart another.

I don't think we can talk about retcon. But more of a different point of view. Unlike OG, they show her inner conflict much more seriously.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Toriyama makes it clear that her words and thoughts are not necessarily linked. She knows that everything is an illusion. Cloud already loves someone. He's not himself. And she, for her part, loves a "fake" Cloud. But that doesn't stop her from loving him after all.

That's why she's so conflicted throughout the trilogy (until maybe she finds Zack). Her brain tells her one thing, her heart another.

I don't think we can talk about retcon. But more of a different point of view. Unlike OG, they show her inner conflict much more seriously.

Yeah, looking back at her resolution scene, I can see it as a setup for her conflict in Rebirth, especially since they took away any foreknowledge she had leaving Midgar.

Makes me suspect the planet may have revoked her memories to keep her on track so she’ll “stick to the plan” but she gets them last minute and kinda goes rogue ever so slightly ( I think she intentionally gave Cloud a chance to block the strike that killed her even if it would be undone ).

 

[Ryeleigh]

Confusing to the casual audience, aka the majority playing the game.

I say it would be confusing because people have spend nearly 30 years thinking Aerith was in love with Cloud, and truth be told she was until it was retconned in the re;trilogy.

I don't think that's the case, though? Re-Trilogy already introduced the "first guy I ever loved" and made it clear it's Zack. Zack's fighting to reunite with Aerith. There was soulmate stuff like feeling each other's touch across worlds. There was the release of Crisis Core. Aerith herself says that she doesn't know what kind of like she feels for Cloud, which kind of downplays(?) her feelings. At least from "she's singularly in love with Cloud and Zack's so much war criminal rubbish for what he's worth".

Even the casual gamers 30 years ago most likely didn't think all that much about the romance in FF7. So I think the only people who would be truly confused about ZA kiss are the extreme CAs. I mean, the casual aka general audience usually takes the story at face value and the game is pretty plain about where it's leading. But that's just what I think.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I don't think that's the case, though? Re-Trilogy already introduced the "first guy I ever loved" and made it clear it's Zack. Zack's fighting to reunite with Aerith. There was soulmate stuff like feeling each other's touch across worlds. There was the release of Crisis Core. Aerith herself says that she doesn't know what kind of like she feels for Cloud, which kind of downplays(?) her feelings. At least from "she's singularly in love with Cloud and Zack's so much war criminal rubbish for what he's worth".

Even the casual gamers 30 years ago most likely didn't think all that much about the romance in FF7. So I think the only people who would be truly confused about ZA kiss are the extreme CAs. I mean, the casual aka general audience usually takes the story at face value and the game is pretty plain about where it's leading. But that's just what I think.

Eh I do kinda see where @abzy1200 is coming from though. Even a casual player immediately associates Aerith, Tifa, and Cloud as the romantic subplot which is why Zack is so often forgotten about or downplayed because he’s barely shown in the original game.

That’s very different now of course, but people like skipped Crisis Core so Zack is just “this black-haired Cloud dude”

I don’t think the game will care though, and stick its Zerith ending regardless. FF isn’t always the best about giving its couples enough screen time to show them being good together ( SnowxSera and NoctisxLunafreya being the worst examples)

 

[Yoru]

FF isn’t always the best about giving its couples enough screen time to show them being good together ( SnowxSera and NoctisxLunafreya being the worst examples)

That's one of the reasons why Rebirth's ending (last chapter) annoys me a little. I think they missed an opportunity to show Zerith in a better light.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Eh I do kinda see where @abzy1200 is coming from though. Even a casual player immediately associates Aerith, Tifa, and Cloud as the romantic subplot which is why Zack is so often forgotten about or downplayed because he’s barely shown in the original game.

That’s very different now of course, but people like skipped Crisis Core so Zack is just “this black-haired Cloud dude”

I don’t think the game will care though, and stick its Zerith ending regardless. FF isn’t always the best about giving its couples enough screen time to show them being good together ( SnowxSera and NoctisxLunafreya being the worst examples)

There are always things that writers could do a bit better but I think at this point if people are confused about ZA then it's their fault, lol.

Also, just saw the "anatami ai tai" discourse on twitter and I'm just. "Anatami" isn't even a word, lmao. At least make up something believable if you're going to lie.

 

[overheat28]

I don't think that's the case, though? Re-Trilogy already introduced the "first guy I ever loved" and made it clear it's Zack. Zack's fighting to reunite with Aerith. There was soulmate stuff like feeling each other's touch across worlds. There was the release of Crisis Core. Aerith herself says that she doesn't know what kind of like she feels for Cloud, which kind of downplays(?) her feelings. At least from "she's singularly in love with Cloud and Zack's so much war criminal rubbish for what he's worth".

Even the casual gamers 30 years ago most likely didn't think all that much about the romance in FF7. So I think the only people who would be truly confused about ZA kiss are the extreme CAs. I mean, the casual aka general audience usually takes the story at face value and the game is pretty plain about where it's leading. But that's just what I think.

I agree with this.

Way I see it is they will have to bite the bullet concerning a final resolution to Aerith's feelings regardless if there will be a kiss or not. There is no point in placing so much emphasis on the same if they weren't - Zack was told explicitly she "likes" Cloud. We know she doesn't know what kind of "like". There is now tension to be resolved between them. So there has to be a resolution to this one way or another for a satisfying ending for ZA.

This will be equally contentious for CAs as much as a makeout session would - I mean the Gongaga near-kiss is being analyzed frame by frame on Twitter to draw spurious conclusions at the moment. Mistranslations of the GS date jare also everywhere. So not much devs can do about it. Might as well go the full distance with ZA - they deserve their happy ending (or as happy as can be).

The alternative is to leave this hanging which will satisfy no one and keep the "triangle" alive from Aerith's end. I sincerely hope that is not how they want to end a trilogy of videogames spread out over almost a decade. For this triangle thing to truly die, it needs to be tied off on all ends. And thats not even getting into Zack and what this does to his character and arc if they want to keep it open ended for some strange reason.

I guess I just don't see why they would sacrifice a satisfying ending for two characters just to keep some illusionary love triangle alive, like Cloti is already a given at this point. The lanes have, more or less, been picked already. It's time for the payoff.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I agree with this.

Way I see it is they will have to bite the bullet concerning a final resolution to Aerith's feelings regardless if there will be a kiss or not. There is no point in placing so much emphasis on the same if they weren't - Zack was told explicitly she "likes" Cloud. We know she doesn't know what kind of "like". There is now tension to be resolved between them. So there has to be a resolution to this one way or another for a satisfying ending for ZA.

This will be equally contentious for CAs as much as a makeout session would - I mean the Gongaga near-kiss is being analyzed frame by frame on Twitter to draw spurious conclusions at the moment. Mistranslations of the GS date jare also everywhere. So not much devs can do about it. Might as well go the full distance with ZA - they deserve their happy ending (or as happy as can be).

The alternative is to leave this hanging which will satisfy no one and keep the "triangle" alive from Aerith's end. I sincerely hope that is not how they want to end a trilogy of videogames spread out over almost a decade. For this triangle thing to truly die, it needs to be tied off on all ends. And thats not even getting into Zack and what this does to his character and arc if they want to keep it open ended for some strange reason.

I guess I just don't see why they would sacrifice a satisfying ending for two characters just to keep some illusionary love triangle alive, like Cloti is already a given at this point. The lanes have, more or less, been picked already. It's time for the payoff.

I’m just not sure how much time ZA will get is my fear. SE loves the drama of the pursuit but seems to struggle with the pay off imo

Cloud has so much screen time with Aerith that I wouldn’t blame someone for not being sold on ZA if all they get is being told they’re right for eachother vs showing me so I can come to that conclusion on my own.

It’s the Noctis and Luna problem. Every NPC and such keep insisting that they’re meant for eachother and Luna was sooooo excited to marry Noctis and so on… but I never get to FEEL that way myself.

I don’t even care about convincing whomever of which camp that Zerith is the way. I just want SE to shake this odd habit of showing two lovers separated by whatever circumstances and the pursuit feeling so passive on one side that I don’t believe you when you say they’re in love.

Zerith is the obvious end goal, I just don’t think they committed to it as hard as they did Cloud and Tifa for whatever reason. If it was because they wanted some more of the LT bait like in the original, then that’s a bad call imo when it would’ve served both better to have Aerith be a little more proactive outside of Gongaga

 

[Ryushikaze]

Isn't there also a quote out there that says something along the lines of "Tifa has trouble expressing her feelings for Cloud, but she is able to do so more easily now"?

I believe so, but I don't remember where off the top of my head.

Game actually couldn't be less Clerith if it tried.

Oh, I suppose it could be, with enough effort. Like Adding in an Aerith who is pining to return to Zack and actively shipping Cloud and TIfa. You know, like Maiden Aerith.

History repeats itself...

It's like we've got a man on the inside. A man with the initial KN.

Yeah, she's always existed first and foremost to pull on your heartstrings, it was a very, very early decision to have her die, wasn't it?

Specifically when The only player characters were Cloud, Barret, and the Cetra, yes. This would make Tifa as we know her the fourth created playable character.

It's a classic case of punching down instead of punching up. Ruining Tifa's reputation will somehow elevate Aerith.

The concept here is "Zero sum" wherein the idea of a gain for one side is an equal and direct loss for another.

Rebirth's box art is very intriguing to me. It might be the most obvious they've been with their intentions in a while.

Yeah, it's the key art for the game and it seems to be very much elevating Zack for his presence in the game until you realize it's also associating the heroines with their respective heroes.

"We all know that alternate box art was made in 5 minutes" - something I've had said to me.

Actually, Nomura himself gave importance to it, no? IIRC, he said somthing along the lines of "It represents the different worlds"

Yeah, it's an interesting way to look at things, though.

Even if it was made in 5 minutes- which if you assume the Hero art was created first and then the heroines were swapped in after wouldn't actually be too hard to do in about five minutes -that wouldn't diminish the very clear parallels it's trying to draw. There are multiple worlds, a hero and a heroine for both, and Sephiroth at the crosspoint between them.

Nomura designed basically the whole cast, no? Besides Zack that was Nojima, I think.

Zack was effectively a reuse of a previous MC design, so it's hard to say who "designed" him in that sense. Nomura was the character designer for the game, responsible for the look of all the characters. He's been open about how attached he was to the design that become Vincent, and his love of the basic aesthetic of Tifa is clear, given he returned to the well several times.

And this is something else I think of when people make ridiculous, hateful arguments. Like, why do these people think the devs are just going to insult characters to such a degree when said characters are basically their success story?

It's not like they want people thinking negatively of their protagonists, so why would you assume that's the intended interpretation? Like the people insisting that the CT kisses are a form of sexual assault. Those people are losing the plot entirely.

You might have been able to play dumb and say that the buster sword was just a sword they gave out to SOLDIERs at the time of the original, but after Rebirth, where we have the reporter say that the criminal they're looking for has the buster sword, and that we've seen multiple SOLDIERs in game (excluding Crisis Core), and none of them have a buster sword, it's gonna be a bit harder to do that.

No other SOLDIER enemy had a Buster sword in FF7 OG either.

No, that makes sense, thanks.

Welcome.

And it's not even what he said.

Of course it's not, but that's not going to stop them. It gave them what they thought was a weapon so they can exist on their motte, screaming everywhere that "Aerith's date happened and was canon", and in due time when it is thoroughly mocked and debunked, back they will go to "none of them are canon." It's a matter of time.

And it's irrelevant too, most people saw Tifa's date, so now the bar has been set. All the routes are meant to organically link up to the story in part 3, and just from that I can guarantee to everybody with my whole chest out that Aerith will not be getting a kiss in part 3, and will not feature in a romantic subplot between her and Cloud, for fear of characterising Cloud as a complete fucking dickhead to the majority of people who will be playing part 3.

She's going to reunite with Zack. The seeds for that are well sewn.

There are always things that writers could do a bit better but I think at this point if people are confused about ZA then it's their fault, lol.

Also, just saw the "anatami ai tai" discourse on twitter and I'm just. "Anatami" isn't even a word, lmao. At least make up something believable if you're going to lie.

It was also the entirely wrong "ai"
And that was from a person who claimed to live in japan and be fluent.

It's fucking Resha and the WacDonalds again.

 

[LNK]

I say it would be confusing because people have spend nearly 30 years thinking Aerith was in love with Cloud, and truth be told she was until it was retconned in the re;trilogy.

These people aren't the casual audience. Furthermore, nothing post ff7 in 97, implied Aerith was in love with Cloud. She was dead

 

[nars305]

Even the casual gamers 30 years ago most likely didn't think all that much about the romance in FF7. So I think the only people who would be truly confused about ZA kiss are the extreme CAs. I mean, the casual aka general audience usually takes the story at face value and the game is pretty plain about where it's leading. But that's just what I think.

I agree with this because…I was a casual. Maybe I still even am I don’t know, I’ve only been a fan of FF7 for 2 or 3 months now.

The game seemed pretty obvious on setting up CT and ZA from the very beginning. I couldn’t really understand how significant it was that Zack “reunited” with Aerith and reached Midgar (I didn’t know CC when I was playing Rebirth), even if she was not conscious. That’s the very start of the game and is a huge follow up for their relationship.

Then the next is Cloud and Tifa being at odds and making up. If it’s not Sephiroth making you aware of them being significant to each other, then it’s Aerith saying don’t take her for for granted, or poking fun that he’d go up to the water tower to have her wave at him.

It’s…so obvious. It really is just so obvious what they’ve set up.

 

[overheat28]

I’m just not sure how much time ZA will get is my fear. SE loves the drama of the pursuit but seems to struggle with the pay off imo

Cloud has so much screen time with Aerith that I wouldn’t blame someone for not being sold on ZA if all they get is being told they’re right for eachother vs showing me so I can come to that conclusion on my own.

It’s the Noctis and Luna problem. Every NPC and such keep insisting that they’re meant for eachother and Luna was sooooo excited to marry Noctis and so on… but I never get to FEEL that way myself.

I don’t even care about convincing whomever of which camp that Zerith is the way. I just want SE to shake this odd habit of showing two lovers separated by whatever circumstances and the pursuit feeling so passive on one side that I don’t believe you when you say they’re in love.

Zerith is the obvious end goal, I just don’t think they committed to it as hard as they did Cloud and Tifa for whatever reason. If it was because they wanted some more of the LT bait like in the original, then that’s a bad call imo when it would’ve served both better to have Aerith be a little more proactive outside of Gongaga

I share your concerns as well. I honestly don't know how they will go about showing ZA in part 3. Almost like they've left themselves too much to do.

They've been relying on Zack to carry the torch and that's why he's all about Aerith from the beginning of Rebirth. But Aerith is the question. All we really explicitly have is her statement and actions in Gongaga. Everything else has to be inferred from her actions or her motivations picked apart and most won't do that. Various soul-mate symbolic type scenes as well. They could be relying on Crisis Core to cover the believability gap but I'm not sure how many even played the re-release. Not many if reddit and Twitter is any indication.

I feel ZA won't be whiplash for anyone paying attention but it might for a large part of the fanbase. I mean a lot of people are still convinced Aerith was saved and they are setting up a grand reunion with her and Cloud. They stuck with the original story beats in Rebirth very closely for better or worse and they could have made some changes - like maybe Aerith could get the hint re Cloud earlier, or get some clue Zack was still out there. I felt they did a disservice to Aerith to have her focus so much on the date stuff with Cloud. Like here was a really good opportunity to make some changes, imo.

The whole Zack interlude intertwined with the dream date felt like they were finally beginning to push the ZA pieces into place. I really hope ZA is not "shafted" because they couldn't plan better. I'd take a novel, too to cover some gaps.

I recall one of the Yakuza games had something where a very important character was essentially given his own side story separate from the main story (which he was still in). You unlocked it at some point in the main game and it was up to the player to access it whenever they wanted from the main menu after unlocking. It didn't interrupt the flow of the main story but enhanced it with more context. They could do something like that with Zack/Aerith, although probably just wishful thinking.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I share your concerns as well. I honestly don't know how they will go about showing ZA in part 3. Almost like they've left themselves too much to do.

They've been relying on Zack to carry the torch and that's why he's all about Aerith from the beginning of Rebirth. But Aerith is the question. All we really explicitly have is her statement and actions in Gongaga. Everything else has to be inferred from her actions or her motivations picked apart and most won't do that. Various soul-mate symbolic type scenes as well. They could be relying on Crisis Core to cover the believability gap but I'm not sure how many even played the re-release. Not many if reddit and Twitter is any indication.

I feel ZA won't be whiplash for anyone paying attention but it might for a large part of the fanbase. I mean a lot of people are still convinced Aerith was saved and they are setting up a grand reunion with her and Cloud. They stuck with the original story beats in Rebirth very closely for better or worse and they could have made some changes - like maybe Aerith could get the hint re Cloud earlier, or get some clue Zack was still out there. I felt they did a disservice to Aerith to have her focus so much on the date stuff with Cloud. Like here was a really good opportunity to make some changes, imo.

The whole Zack interlude intertwined with the dream date felt like they were finally beginning to push the ZA pieces into place. I really hope ZA is not "shafted" because they couldn't plan better. I'd take a novel, too to cover some gaps.

I recall one of the Yakuza games had something where a very important character was essentially given his own side story separate from the main story (which he was still in). You unlocked it at some point in the main game and it was up to the player to access it whenever they wanted from the main menu after unlocking. It didn't interrupt the flow of the main story but enhanced it with more context. They could do something like that with Zack/Aerith, although probably just wishful thinking.

I do like the idea of finishing Part 3 and Unlocking a "Zack's tale" bonus story where you play as just him and Aerith filling in all the exposition, sort of like the bonus mode in FF2 Advance.
Which now that I mention it was also about a bunch of dead allies of the living heroes banding together in the afterlife to fight the final boss on a different level than the main party.
Extra bonus points if we can cheese Sephiroth with a toad spell from a fully maxed out materia.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Way I see it is they will have to bite the bullet concerning a final resolution to Aerith's feelings regardless if there will be a kiss or not. There is no point in placing so much emphasis on the same if they weren't - Zack was told explicitly she "likes" Cloud. We know she doesn't know what kind of "like". There is now tension to be resolved between them. So there has to be a resolution to this one way or another for a satisfying ending for ZA.

I can imagine ZA meeting again overwhelming all else that they don't really need to resolve that? Maybe? Especially since that "she likes Cloud now (because you weren't there)" came from a four-year-old and not Aerith herself so I'm not sure how seriously they need to treat that? If that makes sense, lol.

Cloud has so much screen time with Aerith that I wouldn’t blame someone for not being sold on ZA if all they get is being told they’re right for eachother vs showing me so I can come to that conclusion on my own.

I have my fingers crossed for mutual ZA scenes in Part 3, lol. But I do imagine that the development of their relationship is going to be different from CT simply because they were already an established couple. They were just separated by unfortunate circumstances such as untimely death, lol. Like, ZA were already a couple who were separated whereas CT are on their way to becoming a couple. So the development and trajectory are going to be different.

Now all they just need to show is that Zack isn't anybody's second choice, lol.

It was also the entirely wrong "ai"
And that was from a person who claimed to live in japan and be fluent.

Oh, right. I didn't even think about the "ai" because I was so distracted by the "anatami", lmao. Wouldn't that have made "ai tai" into "I want to love you" if I remember my Japanese lessons right? So even that "now I love you" nonsense would've been totally wrong, lol. Like, by the time you need to lie about your Japanese proficiency, shouldn't you already get this nagging feeling that something isn't right, lol? (General you, just in case.)

The game seemed pretty obvious on setting up CT and ZA from the very beginning. I couldn’t really understand how significant it was that Zack “reunited” with Aerith and reached Midgar (I didn’t know CC when I was playing Rebirth), even if she was not conscious. That’s the very start of the game and is a huge follow up for their relationship.

I mean, even Aerith mentioning the first guy I ever loved who turns up at the end, victoriously surviving death and fate (seemingly), is already a big flag on how that plotline is going to end, lol.

I do like the idea of finishing Part 3 and Unlocking a "Zack's tale" bonus story where you play as just him and Aerith filling in all the exposition, sort of like the bonus mode in FF2 Advance.
Which now that I mention it was also about a bunch of dead allies of the living heroes banding together in the afterlife to fight the final boss on a different level than the main party.

Yeah, I've been wondering if it's going to end up something like that. Could be cool.