SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

That's fair if YOU believe that for yourself, but many cultures (especially in the east) believe differently. Tibetans, Hindus and ancient Egyptians are a few examples

As someone who believes that I will be reunited with my dead loved ones when I die, I'm not ready to die yet. I still have plenty to live for. My grandma and grandpa could come speak to me from the afterlife right now, and I'd tell them I'll see you when I get there. I'm not ready to leave my family and friends yet.

Sure. I may have been a little insensitive, sorry.

But I still think it's a "dangerous" message when we're presented with a character in AC who chose to give up at the beginning of the story. Why suffer in the end? He might as well let himself die and join the others. Not really a problem, he can always come back and talk to Tifa.

I'm exaggerating on purpose but I just want to express why it's a “problem” for me to treat death too simply and why the much more down-to-earth vision in OG fits the story better in MY opinion. That's really all.

I never got that impression in AC, though? Or do you mean that Rebirth's ending implies he should be able to talk with her whenever possible? Because even assuming that what we're seeing in the end of Rebirth is Aerith's ghost, the way Ifalna stuck around for just a little while after her death but even she had to fade away would tell us it's not whenever possible, and becomes harder and harder to do post demise.

Yes, I'm just talking about what Rebirth implies according to some people.That's where this whole discussion started. In my opinion, Aerith should be much less present than some people think, because that's not really how death is treated in OG ...?

I think in both rebirth and in AC we're dealing with extraordinary circumstances and not in a good way.

Yes, that's my pov too. And it should stay that way.

I get that, I was trying to figure out that interpretation of the the events and the metaphysics.

It was more of a general statement than something directly addressed to you lol. When I say things I'm not saying it's the truth, just what I believe in.

 

[Yoru]

IT's not the same degree, but how do you know it'd be less impactful for the characters? Just because they can at times interact with the dead, that doesn't mean they can do the same things with them, as if they were alive. If AC, OtwtaS and Dirge are any indication, I don't see Cloud not being impacted by Aerith's death. No matter how the devs show things in the third game, it'll still lead to the rest of the compilation.

I don't know ? It's my personal feeling ? I don't know what I can say more lol. As I can't force you to accept something you don't see, you can't force me either ? Being able to talk to dead poeple is something too powerful for me ? And I don't like it ? That's pretty much it. Again I've never said it is the truth because I said so. It's just pure personal feelings.

I agree! I just disagree that potentially having alive characters interact a bit with the dead ruins their deaths. Especially since we already have precedence for it

My point was precisely that I didn't agree with this. I don't personally think it's something we've seen before. Whether it's OG/AC or Rebirth. I think it's a matter of interpretation and it's never been said concretely that Cloud actually talks or sees dead people. I think FF7 is much more about spirituality than we think, and that it's more “in his head” than anything else.

I don't think I'm right. I just think you should be a little more open to something different. No matter what, the Re trilogy will still be FF7

Again. I would not be here exchanging with you if I didn't care about other visions. We're not sharing this one and it's ok !

 

[pxl_pushr]

My only stance on it is that if you’re going to make me sit through a long goodbye sequence… please don’t immediately go back on it.

Otherwise I think the work suffers as a complete story because you have this middle section that goes on two scenes too long in that case.

Something about that final goodbye on the plains just felt very… final. She never got that in the original, and adding that as something for the characters but also us the players sits better for me than something added to stir interest between releases.

 

[Yoru]

My only stance on it is that if you’re going to make me sit through a long goodbye sequence… please don’t immediately go back on it.

Otherwise I think the work suffers as a complete story because you have this middle section that goes on two scenes too long in that case.

Something about that final goodbye on the plains just felt very… final. She never got that in the original, and adding that as something for the characters but also us the players sits better for me than something added to stir interest between releases.

Exactly! Any return to Aerith that happens too quickly will render this scene meaningless and cheap.

And regarding my final perspective on all this, I’d like to explain one last time, as simply as possible, my initial message, because I feel like I didn’t express myself well.

For me, FF7 has always had a much more metaphysical aspect than a concrete one. Whether it's the end of the OG or what happens in Advent Children, reality mingles with the subconscious. I think the developers have always intentionally remained very ambiguous. Things that our characters perceive as signs could very well be coincidences for an external observer. Cloud seeing a hand reaching out to him when he needs it or his best friends departing happily into the light could simply be a representation of his subconscious. And I find that this gives FF7 a much more endearing aspect than the much more concrete and magical/fairy-tale direction we seem to be heading towards. I prefer ambiguity and implication over pure and simple exposition.

Obviously, Aerith hasn’t just disappeared. Obviously, this isn’t reality, and we are in a Japanese RPG. But I preferred the subtler approach we had with the OG. That’s all.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Exactly! Any return to Aerith that happens too quickly will render this scene meaningless and cheap.

And regarding my final perspective on all this, I’d like to explain one last time, as simply as possible, my initial message, because I feel like I didn’t express myself well.

For me, FF7 has always had a much more metaphysical aspect than a concrete one. Whether it's the end of the OG or what happens in Advent Children, reality mingles with the subconscious. I think the developers have always intentionally remained very ambiguous. Things that our characters perceive as signs could very well be coincidences for an external observer. Cloud seeing a hand reaching out to him when he needs it or his best friends departing happily into the light could simply be a representation of his subconscious. And I find that this gives FF7 a much more endearing aspect than the much more concrete and magical/fairy-tale direction we seem to be heading towards. I prefer ambiguity and implication over pure and simple exposition.

Obviously, Aerith hasn’t just disappeared. Obviously, this isn’t reality, and we are in a Japanese RPG. But I preferred the subtler approach we had with the OG. That’s all.

The weird endings to Remake and Rebirth absolutely play a role in making it hard to distinguish reality from spiritual/dream spaces and I do think it’s deliberate for design reasons and story reasons.

I think they knew that they had a tough choice to make with the weirder aspects of FF7’s story. The Jenova fights specifically present this problem. There’s also Cloud’s mind being depicted throughout the story ( the white void ) before finally leading to the LS sequence and I think the missing pieces of how these spaces work will be put in place then. My working theory is that most of Rebirth’s ending concerning Cloud takes place in his lifestream.

If part 3 is going to have Aerith as this talking piece for how this weird stuff works, overlaying her explanations to Zack over Tifa gearing up to enter Cloud’s subconscious, then I can see them doing stuff like that.

A character seeing a drop of water and recalling something Aerith said, or seeing a field of flowers and remembering a happy memory with Aerith is much more along the lines of what I expect to see.

They could do whatever they want. The setting’s rules are flexible enough to justify whatever, but the more outlandish the flex, the more I think the story loses its punch.

Between NPTK, the dream date, the dream forest, the “I’ve got this”, and the final cinematic on the plains, Aerith got one of the most thoroughly said goodbyes I think I’ve ever seen in media. If that ends up not meaning very much in the grand scheme of the game’s story… then it’s a yikes in my mind.

Do I think they’ll sneak another one in at the end of part 3? I don’t think so, but they certainly might give in to the temptation. To me, Zack and Aerith’s final goodbye is when Cloud puts the buster sword in the church, and the flowers at where Zack died, because that’s Cloud saying goodbye to them both.

 

[LNK]

I don't know ? It's my personal feeling ? I don't know what I can say more lol. As I can't force you to accept something you don't see, you can't force me either ? Being able to talk to dead poeple is something too powerful for me ? And I don't like it ? That's pretty much it. Again I've never said it is the truth because I said so. It's just pure personal feelings.

I get what you're saying now, but I think we have different ways of expressing our personal feelings.

 

[abzy1200]

I don't think either of them was actually 'whisked away' that's just how it seemed to them. I think they were copied, not transported. This is why there can be a second Cloud, Red XIII, Elmyra, Marlene, Kyrie, Johnny, etc. who we all know to be alive, in addition to the people we saw die.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a little more on this?

If he was copied, then what happened to the original version of him in the real world? Would he still not be dead in that sense?

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, got some posts from a few days back to respond to

Closest you get to that in reality are the voice actors and uh… well, I personally find Zack and Aerith’s VA situation pretty cute tbh

And if nothing of note happened under the Highwind… then why single out the scene? Hmmmm

Because of how notably unnotable it was! OFF COURSE!

I wouldn't be surprised if this is how some think. I've seen this kind of mindset in other fandoms too. ATLA has a sizable fandom that ships Zuko and Katara together and they regularly rant that their ship would totally have happened in the cartoon except that the writers wanted Katara to be with Aang instead. Every time I see that kind of thing being said, I can't help but wonder how people can make themselves forget that that's exactly how fiction works -- the authors write what they want to happen. The characters aren't real people; they don't just do what they want and the author is simply consigned to record it all down like some kind of witness's testimony.

I mean, them thinking the characters are real and there is some magical portal into the universe is extremely worrisome, but would entirely explain a lot of how these people think.

NGL, that sounds both infuriatingly stifling and absurdly useful all at once. It's very Japan.

I mean, it's worse for idols and pop stars, but entertainment companies are often times insane. Sometimes careers get ended over the accusation of doing drugs, even when the accusations are proven spurious.

I'm sure there are a few who genuinely just don't get it, but true CAltists? Willfully all the way down.

And they do it because winning is everything. If their ship wins, who cares what else the fallout is.

In that note, I'm sure Nanaki is attractive by his species' standards. He's well muscled with good teeth and claws, his dark mane speaks of good testosterone levels, his tail flame is bright and steady, etc. Even his injured eye doesn't hurt him over-much, as it clearly isn't hindering him much as a tracker and fighter. Comparing him to Seto he just needs to fill out a bit as he grows up, and he's likely a looker to others of his kind. He ticks the boxes for physical fitness in wild carnivores very well, with his appearance being a giant billboard of honest indicators.

And we do know he finds his mate in the end.

This. It'd be so easy and not terribly more expensive, and they chose not to take advantage there. Because 012 is there to say "no Cloud isn't looking for Aerith, it's Tifa, it's always been Tifa."

Almost like they were sending a message.

They took the picture.

Very clever weasels.

A good twist, as we've discussed, should please both sides of the coin. The satisfaction of saying "I knew it" in the moment, or the "no way!" of the twist catching you by surprise, both of whom can now look back on the hints and enjoy them dearly.

Exactly. Bad twists are badly foreshadowed, with very weak leadup. Good twists have strong but well hidden leadup.

Yeah, that's pretty much just an attempt to bury Tifa in salt. Again, there undoubtedly are people out there that legit don't find Tifa interesting and engaging, and that's fine. It's when they claim such should be the universal truth if all and demand Aerith get the extra screentime/attention that it becomes CAltist behavior.

It's a sort of sour grapes meets motte/ bailey? They really want X for their side, but side Y has it. So they try and diminish what side Y has so they can occupy it on the sly. Like negging someone else's girlfriend, but in the bizarre hope that he'll dump her and you can date her instead.

The moment it occured to me that a trainer with a single well trained Pokemon could probably tear Apeture to pieces in their way out if they deal with the deadly neurotoxin first.

Depending on the pokemon the neurotoxin might just be a boon.

If course, that makes me remember that there's no logical reason GLADoS didn't flood the facility as soon as Chell escaped the resting track in Portal 2, long before she could bring neurotoxin levels to dangerously nonlethal levels.

I suspect the neurotoxin trick only works in fairly well isolated areas of the otherwise very vast facility which is also falling apart. Had to wait for the right moment.

Well then, science will make due.

A scientist is like a cat and aperture science is like a box, right?

Oh? Which one was that? Cause it's difficult to imagine Anastar seeming more unhinged.

The one at the bottom of that post, but you saw it already.

Might be worth checking, even tiny rural libraries can surprise ya.

If not, you can always Yar Har me matey.

Precisely.

Precise too, when it can be managed.

I forget where roughly you're even located I really hate travelling as of my two cross country migrations. Still, tempting if ever I had cash free for plane tickets to make someone else do it and do it faster.

NC, so opposite coast.

Frequency may be more indicative, but do remember severity definitely biases the memory towards the worst takes.

Both need to be taken into account, but a pattern of behavior is more distressing than a one off, basically.

CT clicks like a perfectly machined set of parts coming together. CA clicks like the chambers on a revolver what have no bullets.

And also the cylinder is misaligned because it's supposed to go with a different model.

It's just silly, since blocking CT doesn't make CAltists right, even if they convince newbs or casuals they still know themselves that they are wrong.

It's like people playing online shooters with aimbot. Even if you dominate, you didn't really win. I don't see the point if either.

Convincing others is how they self soothe, basically. It's a coping strategy.

50+ years is too much LTD. Way too much.

I mean 13 was too much and here we are 14 years later.

Kill it with fire?

Can you kill what was never truly alive?

Coming from most people a "characters acting as if they're real and acting out their own story" thing would be a joke. Coming from Anastar, who I remember as utterly humorless, it's concerning. Her mental state may be worsening.

And that was apparently 7 years ago.

Instead of creating a false persona they create a false narrative, genius.


I managed to forget people are like that, why do you have to remind me?!


Although that "Save her...save my friend" line probably set us back a bit, Dissidia when evaluated is definitely CT.

Not really, depending on when in his personal timeline this Cloud is? He might not yet know what He means to Tifa, and may not want to therefore burden Cosmos with it when the important part is him fighting a fucking god in the hope of saving her then begging another god to intervene when he fails.

[quiote]I'm aware what's said there is "nakama", but what do they make of it? Anyway, yeah, I might even argue that Aerith is fanservice in part 3 of the re;trilogy, part of me thinks all this multiversal stuff was thought up to include Aerith more in the story.

Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, who knows.

What did they make of ACC removing Aerith from the credits? Going off of this, probably not very well.[/quote]
Yeah, a lot of them didn't like it. Granted, a lot of non shippers didn't either, but there were unhinged rants about "Clotis complained so it was changed." In which case, wow, that's a lot of fucking pull that side of the fandom has.

But wait! What about her childhood friend Zack!

This LTD just got a whole lot bigger...

Yeah, this is why I saw they want you to see Aerith date the most, it's basically her last non-spiritual moment with Cloud before she croaks.

And it's also why I've always thought Clerith was bait, bait so good that people are still falling hook, line, and sinker for it 27 years later. 30 by the time they're faced with the method behind the magic.

Aerith herself is bait, even if you don't do her date. And I don't mean this in a bad way, but she's the bright happy peppy woman who everyone gets along with and who promises to come right back and then SHANK MURDER.

Yeah, if it's one thing I've noticed it's that Cleriths are directly unwilling to properly engage with the story and characters out of what really seems like jealousy.

Seriously, every time somebody speaks good about Tifa, they get accused and harassed. IIRC they did to MaximillianDood when he was playing through the game and said that Tifa was the secondary protagonist.

Admitting Tifa is one of the game's Heroines is like kryptonite to them. And then they go around accusing everyone else of saying that Aerith isn't a heroine. ECAIAC, etc.

I've always seen it that Aerith was trying to move on from Zack with Cloud, but because they were uncannily similar it made it very hard for her. Sort of a two steps forward, one step back situation.

Essentially, yes.

Going back to what MaximillianDood said, Tifa really is much more suited to be called a secondary protagonist than Aerith, that's why it always annoys me seeing people say that "this is a game between Cloud, Aerith, and Sephiroth"...how? Aerith is completely missing from the latter half of the game. Guess who is actually present for the latter half of the game?

The game- especially now in the remake- has two heros and two heroines. I mean just look at the box art. And hey, wouldn't you know it, they've sorted the heroes and the heroines together.

This image is so funny I actually went looking for it to post here but couldn't find it, and yeah I think it is from Anastar.

And something else about characters not being real, I think it's Hirohiko Araki who seems to think that he doesn't really have free reign to do what he wants with his characters...they just characterise themselves. Strange.

When writers say this it's because the creators have such a complete picture of their creation in mind that it basically writes itself. It's not that the characters are distinct entities, but they are complete and complex creations of the mind.

and also, damn right Nojima and Kitase won't be happy about it! You're fucking up their story!

I can't imagine Nomura's all that happy about it either, given Tifa's design was very much one of his babies.

---------
Also, I want people who say Crisis Core isn't canon to the re;trilogy to ask themselves where Zack got the buster sword.

A box of cracker jacks, right?

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a little more on this?

If he was copied, then what happened to the original version of him in the real world? Would he still not be dead in that sense?

The Zack that our Cloud was with, he is dead.

The Zack of the various worlds is not dead. But he is a copy of Zack rather than the same one. But again so are the Elmyra, Marlene, Kyrie, Johnny, Etc of those worlds, and all those people are still alive in the main world.

Is this making sense? I can make a shitty paint diagram if you like.



Oh, BTW, the current push on twitter from the CA side about "Yamazaki-san said Aerith is the heroine that means she's the canon Rosa thus her date is canon" is an amazing example of the Motte and Bailey tactic because it is being fronted by the exact same people who just yesterday were asserting that all the dates were irrelevant and not related to canon at all.

 

[pxl_pushr]

“All the dates are optional but the one I ship is real because reasons” is a comical way to think.

Also, I genuinely think some people believe a story can only have one hero, one heroine, and an antagonist is the same as a villain. These words, they keep using them. I don’t think they mean what they think they mean.

 

[Ryushikaze]

“All the dates are optional but the one I ship is real because reasons” is a comical way to think.

What's actually hilarious about all of this brouhaha is that for many many years, my official stance on the dates was that Tifa's date was the one with indica that it was "continuity" in that the song "Words interrupted by fireworks" both matched Tifa's melody and the name of the song best matched her date, but that all the dates were 'canon', that all of them told us how Cloud would interact should the people involved come knock on his door. I even said that there was basically no reason (In the OG, mind) that all of them couldn't have happened on the same night, assuming you did something about Cait Sith and the keystone sequence.

Now the issue is figuring out why they put on Loveless so many times a night.

 

[pxl_pushr]

What's actually hilarious about all of this brouhaha is that for many many years, my official stance on the dates was that Tifa's date was the one with indica that it was "continuity" in that the song "Words interrupted by fireworks" both matched Tifa's melody and the name of the song best matched her date, but that all the dates were 'canon', that all of them told us how Cloud would interact should the people involved come knock on his door. I even said that there was basically no reason (In the OG, mind) that all of them couldn't have happened on the same night, assuming you did something about Cait Sith and the keystone sequence.

Now the issue is figuring out why they put on Loveless so many times a night.

Dio and Andrea just won’t let Cloud rest me thinks. Considering how weird his dreams are, I don’t blame Cloud for burning the midnight oil to keep the Loveless ticket sales flowing.

 

[abzy1200]

What's actually hilarious about all of this brouhaha is that for many many years, my official stance on the dates was that Tifa's date was the one with indica that it was "continuity" in that the song "Words interrupted by fireworks" both matched Tifa's melody and the name of the song best matched her date,

Isn't there also a quote out there that says something along the lines of "Tifa has trouble expressing her feelings for Cloud, but she is able to do so more easily now"?

Not really, depending on when in his personal timeline this Cloud is? He might not yet know what He means to Tifa, and may not want to therefore burden Cosmos with it when the important part is him fighting a fucking god in the hope of saving her then begging another god to intervene when he fails.

Game actually couldn't be less Clerith if it tried.

Yeah, a lot of them didn't like it. Granted, a lot of non shippers didn't either, but there were unhinged rants about "Clotis complained so it was changed." In which case, wow, that's a lot of fucking pull that side of the fandom has.

History repeats itself...

Aerith herself is bait, even if you don't do her date. And I don't mean this in a bad way, but she's the bright happy peppy woman who everyone gets along with and who promises to come right back and then SHANK MURDER.

Yeah, she's always existed first and foremost to pull on your heartstrings, it was a very, very early decision to have her die, wasn't it?

Admitting Tifa is one of the game's Heroines is like kryptonite to them. And then they go around accusing everyone else of saying that Aerith isn't a heroine. ECAIAC, etc.

It's a classic case of punching down instead of punching up. Ruining Tifa's reputation will somehow elevate Aerith.

The game- especially now in the remake- has two heros and two heroines. I mean just look at the box art. And hey, wouldn't you know it, they've sorted the heroes and the heroines together.

Rebirth's box art is very intriguing to me. It might be the most obvious they've been with their intentions in a while.

"We all know that alternate box art was made in 5 minutes" - something I've had said to me.

Actually, Nomura himself gave importance to it, no? IIRC, he said somthing along the lines of "It represents the different worlds"

When writers say this it's because the creators have such a complete picture of their creation in mind that it basically writes itself. It's not that the characters are distinct entities, but they are complete and complex creations of the mind.

Yeah, it's an interesting way to look at things, though.

I can't imagine Nomura's all that happy about it either, given Tifa's design was very much one of his babies.

Nomura designed basically the whole cast, no? Besides Zack that was Nojima, I think.

And this is something else I think of when people make ridiculous, hateful arguments. Like, why do these people think the devs are just going to insult characters to such a degree when said characters are basically their success story?

A box of cracker jacks, right?

You might have been able to play dumb and say that the buster sword was just a sword they gave out to SOLDIERs at the time of the original, but after Rebirth, where we have the reporter say that the criminal they're looking for has the buster sword, and that we've seen multiple SOLDIERs in game (excluding Crisis Core), and none of them have a buster sword, it's gonna be a bit harder to do that.

The Zack that our Cloud was with, he is dead.

The Zack of the various worlds is not dead. But he is a copy of Zack rather than the same one. But again so are the Elmyra, Marlene, Kyrie, Johnny, Etc of those worlds, and all those people are still alive in the main world.

Is this making sense? I can make a shitty paint diagram if you like.

No, that makes sense, thanks.

Oh, BTW, the current push on twitter from the CA side about "Yamazaki-san said Aerith is the heroine that means she's the canon Rosa thus her date is canon" is an amazing example of the Motte and Bailey tactic because it is being fronted by the exact same people who just yesterday were asserting that all the dates were irrelevant and not related to canon at all.

And it's not even what he said.

“All the dates are optional but the one I ship is real because reasons” is a comical way to think.

And it's irrelevant too, most people saw Tifa's date, so now the bar has been set. All the routes are meant to organically link up to the story in part 3, and just from that I can guarantee to everybody with my whole chest out that Aerith will not be getting a kiss in part 3, and will not feature in a romantic subplot between her and Cloud, for fear of characterising Cloud as a complete fucking dickhead to the majority of people who will be playing part 3.

 

[Eerie]

Aerith will not be getting a kiss in part 3

At least not with Cloud, I know a few Zerith who are hoping though! I think there will be at least a hug? There should definitely be, as well as a discussion about her feelings for Cloud because no one wants to think Zack is only second best now.

 

[Yoru]

We already talked about Cloti battle lines but Zerith have some close/common ones too

x.com

x.com

they're both kids, I love them

 

[abzy1200]

At least not with Cloud, I know a few Zerith who are hoping though! I think there will be at least a hug? There should definitely be, as well as a discussion about her feelings for Cloud because no one wants to think Zack is only second best now.

Eh, I definitely see a heartwarming moment between them, such as a hug, but if Aerith is only going to have as much screentime in part 3 as Zack did in Rebirth, then I fail to see how they could pull off a kiss without it confusing people. I'd love to see them pull it off, but I'll reel in my
expectations.

And looping back around to Zack, I want to bring up this moment for a second:



I vaguely remember somebody mentioning that an Ultimania passage brought attention to this, and that it might have been a sentiment she was telling herself aswell. So uh, am I crazy or not? does this passage actually exist?

 

[Eerie]

Eh, I definitely see a heartwarming moment between them, such as a hug, but if Aerith is only going to have as much screentime in part 3 as Zack did in Rebirth, then I fail to see how they could pull off a kiss without it confusing people. I'd love to see them pull it off, but I'll reel in my

I don't understand how that would be confusing though?

I vaguely remember somebody mentioning that an Ultimania passage brought attention to this, and that it might have been a sentiment she was telling herself aswell. So uh, am I crazy or not? does this passage actually exist?

It's not in an Ultimania, but Toriyama did say this in an interview:

 

[abzy1200]

I don't understand how that would be confusing though?

Confusing to the casual audience, aka the majority playing the game.

I say it would be confusing because people have spend nearly 30 years thinking Aerith was in love with Cloud, and truth be told she was until it was retconned in the re;trilogy.

It's not in an Ultimania, but Toriyama did say this in an interview:

Thank you, just had to know if I was crazy, and yeah, this is the kind of retconning I previously mentioned, she might have developed feelings for him, and vice versa, but do they really?

 

[Yoru]

Confusing to the casual audience, aka the majority playing the game.

I say it would be confusing because people have spend nearly 30 years thinking Aerith was in love with Cloud, and truth be told she was until it was retconned in the re;trilogy.

Thank you, just had to know if I was crazy, and yeah, this is the kind of retconning I previously mentioned, she might have developed feelings for him, and vice versa, but do they really?

Toriyama makes it clear that her words and thoughts are not necessarily linked. She knows that everything is an illusion. Cloud already loves someone. He's not himself. And she, for her part, loves a "fake" Cloud. But that doesn't stop her from loving him after all.

That's why she's so conflicted throughout the trilogy (until maybe she finds Zack). Her brain tells her one thing, her heart another.

I don't think we can talk about retcon. But more of a different point of view. Unlike OG, they show her inner conflict much more seriously.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Toriyama makes it clear that her words and thoughts are not necessarily linked. She knows that everything is an illusion. Cloud already loves someone. He's not himself. And she, for her part, loves a "fake" Cloud. But that doesn't stop her from loving him after all.

That's why she's so conflicted throughout the trilogy (until maybe she finds Zack). Her brain tells her one thing, her heart another.

I don't think we can talk about retcon. But more of a different point of view. Unlike OG, they show her inner conflict much more seriously.

Yeah, looking back at her resolution scene, I can see it as a setup for her conflict in Rebirth, especially since they took away any foreknowledge she had leaving Midgar.

Makes me suspect the planet may have revoked her memories to keep her on track so she’ll “stick to the plan” but she gets them last minute and kinda goes rogue ever so slightly ( I think she intentionally gave Cloud a chance to block the strike that killed her even if it would be undone ).

 

[Ryeleigh]

Confusing to the casual audience, aka the majority playing the game.

I say it would be confusing because people have spend nearly 30 years thinking Aerith was in love with Cloud, and truth be told she was until it was retconned in the re;trilogy.

I don't think that's the case, though? Re-Trilogy already introduced the "first guy I ever loved" and made it clear it's Zack. Zack's fighting to reunite with Aerith. There was soulmate stuff like feeling each other's touch across worlds. There was the release of Crisis Core. Aerith herself says that she doesn't know what kind of like she feels for Cloud, which kind of downplays(?) her feelings. At least from "she's singularly in love with Cloud and Zack's so much war criminal rubbish for what he's worth".

Even the casual gamers 30 years ago most likely didn't think all that much about the romance in FF7. So I think the only people who would be truly confused about ZA kiss are the extreme CAs. I mean, the casual aka general audience usually takes the story at face value and the game is pretty plain about where it's leading. But that's just what I think.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I don't think that's the case, though? Re-Trilogy already introduced the "first guy I ever loved" and made it clear it's Zack. Zack's fighting to reunite with Aerith. There was soulmate stuff like feeling each other's touch across worlds. There was the release of Crisis Core. Aerith herself says that she doesn't know what kind of like she feels for Cloud, which kind of downplays(?) her feelings. At least from "she's singularly in love with Cloud and Zack's so much war criminal rubbish for what he's worth".

Even the casual gamers 30 years ago most likely didn't think all that much about the romance in FF7. So I think the only people who would be truly confused about ZA kiss are the extreme CAs. I mean, the casual aka general audience usually takes the story at face value and the game is pretty plain about where it's leading. But that's just what I think.

Eh I do kinda see where @abzy1200 is coming from though. Even a casual player immediately associates Aerith, Tifa, and Cloud as the romantic subplot which is why Zack is so often forgotten about or downplayed because he’s barely shown in the original game.

That’s very different now of course, but people like skipped Crisis Core so Zack is just “this black-haired Cloud dude”

I don’t think the game will care though, and stick its Zerith ending regardless. FF isn’t always the best about giving its couples enough screen time to show them being good together ( SnowxSera and NoctisxLunafreya being the worst examples)

 

[Yoru]

FF isn’t always the best about giving its couples enough screen time to show them being good together ( SnowxSera and NoctisxLunafreya being the worst examples)

That's one of the reasons why Rebirth's ending (last chapter) annoys me a little. I think they missed an opportunity to show Zerith in a better light.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Eh I do kinda see where @abzy1200 is coming from though. Even a casual player immediately associates Aerith, Tifa, and Cloud as the romantic subplot which is why Zack is so often forgotten about or downplayed because he’s barely shown in the original game.

That’s very different now of course, but people like skipped Crisis Core so Zack is just “this black-haired Cloud dude”

I don’t think the game will care though, and stick its Zerith ending regardless. FF isn’t always the best about giving its couples enough screen time to show them being good together ( SnowxSera and NoctisxLunafreya being the worst examples)

There are always things that writers could do a bit better but I think at this point if people are confused about ZA then it's their fault, lol.

Also, just saw the "anatami ai tai" discourse on twitter and I'm just. "Anatami" isn't even a word, lmao. At least make up something believable if you're going to lie.

 

[overheat28]

I don't think that's the case, though? Re-Trilogy already introduced the "first guy I ever loved" and made it clear it's Zack. Zack's fighting to reunite with Aerith. There was soulmate stuff like feeling each other's touch across worlds. There was the release of Crisis Core. Aerith herself says that she doesn't know what kind of like she feels for Cloud, which kind of downplays(?) her feelings. At least from "she's singularly in love with Cloud and Zack's so much war criminal rubbish for what he's worth".

Even the casual gamers 30 years ago most likely didn't think all that much about the romance in FF7. So I think the only people who would be truly confused about ZA kiss are the extreme CAs. I mean, the casual aka general audience usually takes the story at face value and the game is pretty plain about where it's leading. But that's just what I think.

I agree with this.

Way I see it is they will have to bite the bullet concerning a final resolution to Aerith's feelings regardless if there will be a kiss or not. There is no point in placing so much emphasis on the same if they weren't - Zack was told explicitly she "likes" Cloud. We know she doesn't know what kind of "like". There is now tension to be resolved between them. So there has to be a resolution to this one way or another for a satisfying ending for ZA.

This will be equally contentious for CAs as much as a makeout session would - I mean the Gongaga near-kiss is being analyzed frame by frame on Twitter to draw spurious conclusions at the moment. Mistranslations of the GS date jare also everywhere. So not much devs can do about it. Might as well go the full distance with ZA - they deserve their happy ending (or as happy as can be).

The alternative is to leave this hanging which will satisfy no one and keep the "triangle" alive from Aerith's end. I sincerely hope that is not how they want to end a trilogy of videogames spread out over almost a decade. For this triangle thing to truly die, it needs to be tied off on all ends. And thats not even getting into Zack and what this does to his character and arc if they want to keep it open ended for some strange reason.

I guess I just don't see why they would sacrifice a satisfying ending for two characters just to keep some illusionary love triangle alive, like Cloti is already a given at this point. The lanes have, more or less, been picked already. It's time for the payoff.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I agree with this.

Way I see it is they will have to bite the bullet concerning a final resolution to Aerith's feelings regardless if there will be a kiss or not. There is no point in placing so much emphasis on the same if they weren't - Zack was told explicitly she "likes" Cloud. We know she doesn't know what kind of "like". There is now tension to be resolved between them. So there has to be a resolution to this one way or another for a satisfying ending for ZA.

This will be equally contentious for CAs as much as a makeout session would - I mean the Gongaga near-kiss is being analyzed frame by frame on Twitter to draw spurious conclusions at the moment. Mistranslations of the GS date jare also everywhere. So not much devs can do about it. Might as well go the full distance with ZA - they deserve their happy ending (or as happy as can be).

The alternative is to leave this hanging which will satisfy no one and keep the "triangle" alive from Aerith's end. I sincerely hope that is not how they want to end a trilogy of videogames spread out over almost a decade. For this triangle thing to truly die, it needs to be tied off on all ends. And thats not even getting into Zack and what this does to his character and arc if they want to keep it open ended for some strange reason.

I guess I just don't see why they would sacrifice a satisfying ending for two characters just to keep some illusionary love triangle alive, like Cloti is already a given at this point. The lanes have, more or less, been picked already. It's time for the payoff.

I’m just not sure how much time ZA will get is my fear. SE loves the drama of the pursuit but seems to struggle with the pay off imo

Cloud has so much screen time with Aerith that I wouldn’t blame someone for not being sold on ZA if all they get is being told they’re right for eachother vs showing me so I can come to that conclusion on my own.

It’s the Noctis and Luna problem. Every NPC and such keep insisting that they’re meant for eachother and Luna was sooooo excited to marry Noctis and so on… but I never get to FEEL that way myself.

I don’t even care about convincing whomever of which camp that Zerith is the way. I just want SE to shake this odd habit of showing two lovers separated by whatever circumstances and the pursuit feeling so passive on one side that I don’t believe you when you say they’re in love.

Zerith is the obvious end goal, I just don’t think they committed to it as hard as they did Cloud and Tifa for whatever reason. If it was because they wanted some more of the LT bait like in the original, then that’s a bad call imo when it would’ve served both better to have Aerith be a little more proactive outside of Gongaga