SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

Hi it's been a while. Work got so insane that I don't think I've had a moment to think of much else. Also left Fandom in general to focus on other things so I have no idea what any of the latest discourse is. And FF14 has my soul anyway so I only beat up till end of Nibelhiem. But will be catching up reading this thread this week and adding my thoughts after I finally finish this game. Hope you're all well.

So far I'm enjoying all the dynamics.

Though it's still fresh in my head so I will say in Nibelhiem the scene with Aerith on the water tower is an interesting topic for this jealousy topic too. Because my girl is clearly jealous of Cloud here. Jealous he grew up in a town, with a childhood friend and she grew up in a lab with no friends. Jealousy need not be romantic linked.

As for the topic on the latest page. I've said before I do think in terms of Cloud's ego he is jealous of Zack to some extent, I really don't think that's a throwaway in OG put in for no reason. I think in Rebirth they just expand on his situation in more clear ways. And I was always took it as his complicated feelings are towards this other hero who he in the park scene is sitting in the same place of. I don't think it's romance related but could be ego related. Before this Aerith was all impressed with Cloud being a SOLDIER before she started teasing him for basically showing off and then he finds well he is not the only hero around here. I do get that sense.

And he is essentially in that same place that hero stood. It would definitely seem weird. Maybe even like having an imposter feeling like someone else should be sitting there instead. He might even feel bad about it. Like sorry I'm not him.

I don't know, but that's how I see that scene in terms of "complex feelings". Aerith is talking about another guy here so I don't think he is even considering her feelings for him at all.

As for Tifa's GS I don't think he kisses her out of jealousy I think that's a stupid argument. Obviously.

But I just think there is a point to be made jealousy is not always romantic related. In fact in many cases, it isn't.

 

[Eerie]

Aerith asks the "next time" question, but I saw there being a lot of unsaid questions about what sort of next time it might be, and Cloud's response- either way- indicates he either didn't pick up on them or if he did he didn't consider them at all, so Aerith realizes where "You and I stand" with a sad look on her face. That's what I mean about the exchange feeling like she was rejected and Cloud not understanding the question Aerith was asking (without actually asking it). Then she confesses and he's confused and worried. I'm still not sure if he quite groks Aerith liked him, but if he does, you're right he doesn't seem to reciprocate.

He definitely understands but doesn't reciprocate, I think, after her confession. I think that prior to it, he never really gets that she's fallen for him - to him she loved Zack, and Zack loved her and it didn't go further than that, especially with all his story with Tifa developping and taking all his romance interest.

I will say that I feel strongly that this scene is here to give closure to CA: this is not where those two will find happiness, one isn't interested, and is the other interested anyway? I think p3 will have to answer that for Aerith, because although it's very obvious to me that she will reunite with Zack in the church (and maybe kiss? Because Aerith fans also want her to get a kiss so we might get it) but her feelings for Cloud will need to be explained - both to Zack and the players.

After the church scene, we do get the infamous death scene, so given the way it was done, I feel that properly giving the answer to CA "no it's not romantic, it's platonic" was really important (though most people ignore this and Aerith's warning in her own resolution in Remake). Like yeah, he's not able to mourn her, he's not able to accept her death, but it's not love - and if anything their last talk before parting, may it be a real or illusion Aerith, absolutely displays that. If it was love, Cloud would have taken a chance, especially since she already confessed like, twice already. Tifa only gave half a hint and he acted on it, he definitely did understand her confession in the church... yet he never kissed her, nor in the church (she says sorry because she knows she shouldn't be hugging him, since he doesn't love her that way), nor at the end, and the end gets "no promises to keep" like oof.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Hi it's been a while. Work got so insane that I don't think I've had a moment to think of much else. Also left Fandom in general to focus on other things so I have no idea what any of the latest discourse is. And FF14 has my soul anyway so I only beat up till end of Nibelhiem. But will be catching up reading this thread this week and adding m thoughts after I finally finish this game. Hope you're all well.

So far I'm enjoying all the dynamics.

Though it's still fresh in my head so I will say in Nibelhiem the scene with Aerith on the water tower is an interesting topic for this jealousy topic too. Because my girl is clearly jealous of Cloud here. Jealous he grew up in a town, with a childhood friend and she grew up in a lab with no friends. Jealousy need not be romantic linked.

As for the topic on the latest page. I've said before I do think in terms of Cloud's ego he is jealous of Zack to some extent, I really don't think that's a throwaway in OG put in for no reason. I think in Rebirth they just expand on his situation in more clear ways. And I was always took it as his complicated feelings are towards this other hero who he in the park scene is in the is sitting in the same place of. I don't think it's romance related but could be ego related. Before this Aerith was all impressed with Cloud being a SOLDIER before she started teasing him for basically showing off and then he finds well he is not the only hero around here. I do get that sense.

And he is essentially in that same place that hero stood. It would definitely seem weird. Maybe even like having an imposter feeling like someone else should be sitting there instead. He might even feel bad about it. Like sorry I'm not him.

I don't know, but that's how I see that scene in terms of "complex feelings". Aerith is talking about another guy here so I don't think he is even considering her feelings for him at all.

As for Tifa's GS I don't think he kisses her out of jealousy I think a that's stupid argument. Obviously.

But I just think there is a point to be made jealousy is not always romantic related. In fact in many cases, it isn't.

I think there’s something here that’s worth looking at now that you’ve mentioned it: Cloud may be socially awkward but he’s not really an idiot.

Similar to how Cloud catches Tifa “testing” him under Junon, I think he also catches Aerith in a similar way by the time Gongaga rolls around. It feels like a long time, but it was what a couple weeks ago, not even that when the conversation in the park happened?

I have to watch the GS date again, but I’m wondering if there’s no look of surprise from Cloud when Aerith talks about seeing Zack in him? Couple that with his fears of being hollowed out, and I can see why Cloud would feel some type of way about Aerith and Tifa testing him that’s somewhere between feeling imposter syndrome and a mild annoyance?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I get the impression he never considers that her teasing was genuine flirting, similar to how he took Jessie’s flirting back in Remake although he’d grown far closer to Aerith by the end of Rebirth.

Never really considered her as an option so filed everything in the friendship folder of his brain.

Meanwhile, you’ve got Cloud and Tifa repairing their friendship after a small fight and it ends in them either nearly kissing eachother or full on kissing eachother.

I do think he catches on near the end of Aerith’s confession, but the face he makes says everything you need to know: that’s not where his head is at when it comes to her.

Yeah, I am of the opinion that he doesn't catch on until then. Cloud just does not consider Aerith is thinking of him that way, ESPECIALLY after he remembers Zack. Like, one of the aspects several folks on the team, devs and actors alike, have called out about Cloud is his LOYALTY. Cloud is Loyal to Tifa, absolutely, but he's also totally loyal to ZACK too. He knows that Zack was super into Aerith and he knows from Gongaga Aerith still has feelings for him. Cloud would definitely feel bizarre making a move on his best friend's lady. I dare say the idea might just feel intrinsically wrong to him.

He definitely understands but doesn't reciprocate, I think, after her confession. I think that prior to it, he never really gets that she's fallen for him - to him she loved Zack, and Zack loved her and it didn't go further than that, especially with all his story with Tifa developping and taking all his romance interest.

Yeah, this is how I understand the scene and the prior 'dates' as well. Cloud does not think Aerith is into him, and so she must be teasing him like Jessie did.

I will say that I feel strongly that this scene is here to give closure to CA: this is not where those two will find happiness, one isn't interested, and is the other interested anyway? I think p3 will have to answer that for Aerith, because although it's very obvious to me that she will reunite with Zack in the church (and maybe kiss? Because Aerith fans also want her to get a kiss so we might get it) but her feelings for Cloud will need to be explained - both to Zack and the players.

After the church scene, we do get the infamous death scene, so given the way it was done, I feel that properly giving the answer to CA "no it's not romantic, it's platonic" was really important (though most people ignore this and Aerith's warning in her own resolution in Remake). Like yeah, he's not able to mourn her, he's not able to accept her death, but it's not love - and if anything their last talk before parting, may it be a real or illusion Aerith, absolutely displays that. If it was love, Cloud would have taken a chance, especially since she already confessed like, twice already. Tifa only gave half a hint and he acted on it, he definitely did understand her confession in the church... yet he never kissed her, nor in the church (she says sorry because she knows she shouldn't be hugging him, since he doesn't love her that way), nor at the end, and the end gets "no promises to keep" like oof.

Yeah, no matter what choices the player makes, Cloud always chooses not to act on Aerith's confession. He always calls her weird.

But I just think there is a point to be made jealousy is not always romantic related. In fact in many cases, it isn't.

As an excellent example of this, the rebirth Ultimania has clarified that the jealousy Tifa feels towards Aerith (and also Yuffie) is that they can be completely forthright and get close with people without being self conscious, because she hates that she's a people pleaser.

Sort of like the devs read the "Jealousy of Aerith MUST mean Cloud loves Aerith not Tifa" bullshit and had to add another line item debunking the stupid without admitting to knowing it existed.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, this is how I understand the scene and the prior 'dates' as well. Cloud does not think Aerith is into him, and so she must be teasing him like Jessie did.

In hindsight, this is probably why they felt the need for Jessie to act the way she did; like this, Cloud had prior experience with such behaviour and liken Aerith's to Jessie's.

 

[abzy1200]

In hindsight, this is probably why they felt the need for Jessie to act the way she did; like this, Cloud had prior experience with such behaviour and liken Aerith's to Jessie's.

Cloud has very different responses to Aerith and Jessie, though. He was much harsher towards Jessie.

Cloud was calling Jessie desperate, yet smiles when Aerith holds his hand on the dream date.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

As an excellent example of this, the rebirth Ultimania has clarified that the jealousy Tifa feels towards Aerith (and also Yuffie) is that they can be completely forthright and get close with people without being self conscious, because she hates that she's a people pleaser.

Sort of like the devs read the "Jealousy of Aerith MUST mean Cloud loves Aerith not Tifa" bullshit and had to add another line item debunking the stupid without admitting to knowing it existed.

Mm. I think that might be their own fault though, because the Ultimanias state several times Tifa is jealous of Aerith as a woman: one one making a new world with Cloud unlike hers with him and two has complicated feelings towards Aerith "as a woman". which which implies yes she is worried Cloud leaving to go to Aerith's church and what that could mean i.e. possibly having feelings for her/a general fear of another woman pulling the man she loves away. These too are her insecurities.

It just doesn't mean necessarily that her worries are reality. Our insecurities don't mean our fears are true. And it may not even have been intentional to make it seem like there was competition for Cloud's affection between the two women, it may be the devs didn't even notice it came across that way.

But that was the way in was painted before Rebirth and we can't not acknowledge that impression came from somewhere. Everything, even wrong impressions come from somewhere.

For example I've said before also in COT the way it sounds when Tifa calls out Cloud for going to the church and hiding it, sounds a bit like a soap opera where the man was sneaking around. It makes it sound like going to the church is something forbidden and he had to sneak to do it. Not a good look. It may not be so, but if people get that impression I don't think it's because they're stupid. And I think that's definitely on the writing making it sound that way. Because it does definitely sound that way.

How else would Japanese women get the impression that Tifa was a woman "left behind by a man" to the point it needed to be commented on and scenes needed to be added? Because it did give that impression whether it was the one they wanted to give or not. And that's not people being stupid, that's the writing not conveying what it wanted for whatever reason.

I think they just finally have realized how it comes across and have changed things up to get their true intention across this time if not changed intentions altogether for a better story.

I think the same for the OG jealously line in that sentence you can choose to be jealous of Zack over Aerith in Gongaga because it helps with the illusion and shock value when she dies, they let you think Cloud could have feelings for her in OG. It adds on to the twist of I was acting out the role of this other man all along. Part of an illusion is getting people to buy in. That's not people being stupid if they believe it.

However, they in Rebirth now changed it to concern over Aerith as a friend who in his view has been cheated and hurt by said hero. And any jealousy is expressed in a different way that better matches his story. As complex feelings, an ego thing, and imposter syndrome. Not a romance thing.

Cloud being literally in the place of the hero who died so he could live and being aware of it like his shadow. Tifa being jealous Aerith can get close to people easily. Aerith jealous of Cloud having a loving home and friends to make memories with. And it all works a lot better for the story than the older outdated soap opera looking jealousy for all parties.

Edited to make my point clearer. I'm not big on blaming the devs but I definitely think if in this particular case people got the wrong impression it's because of how certain things were presented or executed lead to such an impression. To the point they had to make changes. And I think people in general go with what they see at first glance. Not everyone was going to dive deeper so that's on the devs sorry for spreading things out between Ultimanias games, novels and movie and not being clear from the get go. But they learned with Rebirth and you can see that.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Cloud has very different responses to Aerith and Jessie, though. He was much harsher towards Jessie.

Cloud was calling Jessie desperate, yet smiles when Aerith holds his hand on the dream date.

Aerith doesn’t come on nearly as strong as Jessie did, but by the time Cloud fully meets Aerith, he’s had time to lighten up.

I saw a lot of similarities to OG Aerith and how they expanded on Jessie, so I suspect it was deliberate to keep the flirty atmosphere around Cloud, but take a slightly different angle on Aerith in preparation for her adjusted character arc.

By the time of the dream date, he genuinely sees Aerith as a friend, while he was coming around on the Avalanche trio before shit happened.

 

[abzy1200]

Slight rant here, sorry about this.

And it may not even have been intentional to make it seem like there was competition for Cloud's affection between the two women, it may be the devs didn't even notice it came across that way.

Definitely was intentional, at least to an extent:

“having 2 heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, that was something new”
-Yoshinori Kitase

and as you said:

Mm. I think that might be their own fault though, because the Ultimanias state several times Tifa is jealous of Aerith as a woman: one one making a new world with Cloud unlike hers with him and two "has complicated feelings towards Aerith as a woman" which implies yes she is worried Cloud leaving to go to Aerith's church is related to him possibly having feelings for her. These too are her insecurities.

They knew exactly what tree they were barking up when they specifically chose to not only show that Cloud has a room where he works and there's a single bed in there, but also to have Reno and Rude use the Childrens' room for Cloud and Tifa later in the film, never showing the room Tifa (and Cloud) sleeps in.

Nomura saying that he didn't care/didn't know if Cloud and Tifa were together before Advent Children. Nojima saying "things might have gone well with Aerith". The fact that statements like "the more Cloud realises how happy he is living with Tifa and the children" exist but there really isn't anything concrete to back it up, I kinda just have to take their word for it. What little there is of Cloud actually seeming at the very least content with his new life is found in a short story that was almost completely omitted from the film. And even then, it's basically just Cloud saying "can't wait to start my new life with you", it's just all talk and no substance. Tifa could sit at the table and be met with smiles, and Cloud smiles when she says that Aerith brought Denzel to them, but that's basically it.

I've seen a couple different translations for it, but one in particular stuck out to me, the last thing Tifa asks Cloud before he brushes her off and goes back to sleep is "and what about us?" or "will we be ok?", something along those lines, and this paired with the fact that Advent Children tries it's best to be as anti-Cloti as possible when it comes to sleeping arrangements, and the ultimania quotes such as the ones you mentioned also makes me think this slight ambiguity is absolutely by design.

Hell, even the colours the film uses give the impression that Aerith is, or was, the only light in Cloud's life. If I remember correctly, basically the only character in the film who has colours other than dull colours like grey and black associated with them is Aerith, they even went through the effort of draining the colour from Tifa's eyes, and that to have basically no colour in the film except for Aerith and her flowers was done for a reason.

And in Rebirth, having Aerith latch onto Cloud's arm in front of everyone proclaiming that they were on a date. Cloud smiling when Aerith takes hold of his hand, which to be completely honest, as somebody who has never been romantically involved with anyone before and have never walked with a girl holding my hand besides my mother and other family when I was a child, is extremely difficult for me to look at and say "nah nothing there." I mean, why else would you take someone's hand while on a date? And then what is the recipient accepting it and smiling supposed to mean if it's not meant to have romantic implications?

Nojima's statement about things being less ambiguous this time around implies there was a level of ambiguity before that is being erased.

This isn't to say Cloud abandoned Tifa for Aerith in Advent Children, or that these absurd "Cloud doesn't love Tifa" takes have any bit of truth to them, but it's extremely difficult to look at all this and say that this outcome was an accident. Nomura later down the line did say that Tifa was someone's beloved, but by that point the damage had already been done, and it's official translation did nothing to help the situation. How many people are going to watch the film only vs see all the compilation pieces put together, correct translations of Ultimania material and all? And better yet, how many people are going to experience the compilation without the preconception that it's ambiguous and have that not impact their interpretation of things?

Aerith doesn’t come on nearly as strong as Jessie did

Aerith still comes on relatively strong, though. Even after Aerith claims they were on a date, sure he throws Tifa an upset "it isn't what it looks like" look, but he also hardly pulls his arm away or says anything about it when Tifa is actually looking at them.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@abzy1200 No worries, I get your point.

As a married woman who has had several relationships I will say yeah there is definitely an impression given when you have a man acting a certain way with another woman even if there is NOTHING between them. Even if he feels nothing for her. The impression it gives is still there. And that matters.

The woman could be his friend, it doesn't mean him taking her hand will not cause alarm bells to ring and quotes like "complicated feelings as a woman" imply that. It doesn't matter how platonic that relationship is. And from personal experience without going to deep or too personal many times there is something to these alarm bells.

People watching a man who is supposedly in love with another woman smile with another, hold their hand, "go on dates" and leave his family behind and go apparently where she is (to the apparently forbidden place) ARE going to get the wrong impression. Again even if it's the wrong impression it comes from somewhere.

The truth is yes I believe at some point the devs did at least let the audience think there was trouble in paradise for the sake of their story yes. And in OG they let them think Aerith was a romantic option for the sake of their narrative and mechanics and set up for a plot twist etc. I think it makes no sense to say: No they never meant for it to at least seem that way, because who are we kidding?

But I just don't think they intended that impression to last the entire time, they thought it would be resolved and people would see it as Cloud and Tifa overcoming trials instead of what ended up happenning : The audience saw it as Tifa being left behind by a man. I don't think they realized how strong that initial impression was and they didn't do enough to be clear about it.

I think in general it is not logical to say this impression came from nowhere, that it's just people clearly being delusional. I don't think that's true at all. But even so I think they're trying to show their intentions NOW by showing things clearer than ever before.

Even if yeah some parts still make me raise an eyebrow. Like "Okay, you don't want me to see this "date" or sparkly dream as romantic. Got it."

 

[pxl_pushr]

@abzy1200

As a married woman who has had several relationships I will say yeah there is definitely an impression given when you have a man acting a certain way with another woman even if there is NOTHING between them. Even if he feels nothing for her. The impression it gives is still there. And that matters.

The woman could be his friend, it doesn't mean him taking her hand will not cause alarm bells to ring and quotes like "complicated feelings as a woman" imply that. It doesn't matter how platonic that relationship is. And from personal experience without going to deep or too personal many times there is something to these alarm bells.

People watching a man who is supposedly in love with another woman smile with another, hold their hand, "go on dates" and leave his family behind and go apparently where she is (to the apparently forbidden place) ARE going to get the wrong impression. Again even if it's the wrong impression it comes from somewhere.

The truth is yes I believe at some point the devs did at least let the audience think there was trouble in paradise for the sake of their story yes. And in OG they let them think Aerith was a romantic option for the sake of their narrative and mechanics and set up for a plot twist etc. I think it makes no sense to say: No they never meant for it to at least seem that way, because who are we kidding?

But I just don't think they intended that impression to last the entire time, they thought it would be resolved and people would see it as Cloud and Tifa overcoming trials instead of what actually happened. I don't think they realized how strong that initial impression was and they didn't do enough to be clear about it.

I think in general it is not logical to say this impression came from nowhere, that it's just people clearly being delusional. I don't think that's true at all. But even so I think they're trying to show their intentions NOW by showing things clearer than ever before.

Even if yeah some parts still make me raise an eyebrow. Like "Okay, you don't want me to see this "date" or sparkly dream as romantic. Got it."

Because it’s still part of the plot twist, even if people are aware of it. This is the tightrope that’s unique to FF7 because so much of it plays with your genre knowledge in the first half before it flips the table on you on the second half.

Ambiguity is baked into it because that’s the nature of this type of narrative. People who don’t know FF7’s story are supposed to think it’s a love triangle because the rug pull hasn’t happened yet. However because it’s sliced the way it is, they had to give Tifa more moments

The big thing with Cloud that part 3 needs to clarify is the nature of his persona vs his true self. He obviously starts as a fragment of a person but grows more of a personality as he interacts with people. So how much of that remains after he’s himself ( basically, what happens between NC and Mideel. Does SOLDIERCloud “die” leaving only real Cloud to try and piece it all together? )

 

[Ryushikaze]

Because it’s still part of the plot twist, even if people are aware of it. This is the tightrope that’s unique to FF7 because so much of it plays with your genre knowledge in the first half before it flips the table on you on the second half.

Ambiguity is baked into it because that’s the nature of this type of narrative. People who don’t know FF7’s story are supposed to think it’s a love triangle because the rug pull hasn’t happened yet. However because it’s sliced the way it is, they had to give Tifa more moments

The big thing with Cloud that part 3 needs to clarify is the nature of his persona vs his true self. He obviously starts as a fragment of a person but grows more of a personality as he interacts with people. So how much of that remains after he’s himself ( basically, what happens between NC and Mideel. Does SOLDIERCloud “die” leaving only real Cloud to try and piece it all together? )

Real Cloud is under there from the start, just not strong enough to take the forefront, except for the times he comes out around Tifa.

And yes, I agree the devs- Nojima especially- want to remove as much ambiguity from the equation now that they're older and doing Remake Project. I mean, Nomura has always liked the "figure things out yourself" whereas Nojima always seems to be very direct about his statements. "At the start, Cloud and Tifa" "I didn't mean to write about my thoughts on marriage and relationships with CoT but..." and how explicit he's been in ToTP and 2000 Gil, etc.

Plus all the "what if" moments in Ever Crisis to actually give plenty of in character if out of continuity moments, as these are supposed to be possible alternate versions of the party, if I remember my framing device details properly.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Because it’s still part of the plot twist, even if people are aware of it. This is the tightrope that’s unique to FF7 because so much of it plays with your genre knowledge in the first half before it flips the table on you on the second half.

Ambiguity is baked into it because that’s the nature of this type of narrative. People who don’t know FF7’s story are supposed to think it’s a love triangle because the rug pull hasn’t happened yet. However because it’s sliced the way it is, they had to give Tifa more moments

The big thing with Cloud that part 3 needs to clarify is the nature of his persona vs his true self. He obviously starts as a fragment of a person but grows more of a personality as he interacts with people. So how much of that remains after he’s himself ( basically, what happens between NC and Mideel. Does SOLDIERCloud “die” leaving only real Cloud to try and piece it all together? )

Yeah, and I'm not really blaming anyone for structuring their story that way, nor for falling for it. Neither the devs nor the audience, even the ones who misunderstood are doing anything wrong per say and I don't wish to imply that. The thing about plot twists is in order for them to work at all people need to believe the opposite first to be shocked later.

So that's just what happened people basically fell for the plot twist. But not everyone realized that. The problem being it was not very clear from the start that it was supposed to be a plot twist. I do think responsibility for being clear does go to the creators of a work as much as the audience to look deeper so I do think that's still on them. Of course this doesn't mean people should lie about the story, but just saying it makes sense people misunderstood because yeah it really wasn't clear to start as people would like to think.

But the devs are now retroactively making their intention clear. With varying results, but I think as far as it goes they're doing a better job.

Though in some cases we do need suspension of disbelief for this whole plot twist to work out. And yeah if your audience believed what you showed them at first it's not going to always be so easy to retroactively convince them otherwise. That's just the risk taken with the type of story they decided to tell.

 

[Eerie]

Mm. I think that might be their own fault though, because the Ultimanias state several times Tifa is jealous of Aerith as a woman: one one making a new world with Cloud unlike hers with him and two has complicated feelings towards Aerith "as a woman". which which implies yes she is worried Cloud leaving to go to Aerith's church and what that could mean i.e. possibly having feelings for her/a general fear of another woman pulling the man she loves away. These too are her insecurities.

I don't remember if Nojima or Nomura said quite recently that Tifa had complex feelings in AC/C because she thought they could've saved her and failed her - so guilt, just as Cloud. In all honesty if it was me, I'd just hope they'd rewrite all the On the Way to a Smile + ACC ENTIRELY because damn if Nojima got better at writing.

How else would Japanese women get the impression that Tifa was a woman "left behind by a man" to the point it needed to be commented on and scenes needed to be added? Because it did give that impression whether it was the one they wanted to give or not. And that's not people being stupid, that's the writing not conveying what it wanted for whatever reason.

I think they absolutely DID NOT SEE THAT COMING when they should've but uh, room full of men writing etc. uh. In any case this was definitely a turning point for them.

I think they just finally have realized how it comes across and have changed things up to get their true intention across this time if not changed intentions altogether for a better story.

Yeah I can't help but feel there was a bit of changing some stuff, even though most was probably how they saw it first.

Cloud being literally in the place of the hero who died so he could live and being aware of it like his shadow. Tifa being jealous Aerith can get close to people easily. Aerith jealous of Cloud having a loving home and friends to make memories with. And it all works a lot better for the story than the older outdated soap opera looking jealousy for all parties.

To me, that's what the Remake trilogy does best: it lets characters truly shine. They have a depth they've never had before, finally.

I've seen a couple different translations for it, but one in particular stuck out to me, the last thing Tifa asks Cloud before he brushes her off and goes back to sleep is "and what about us?" or "will we be ok?", something along those lines, and this paired with the fact that Advent Children tries it's best to be as anti-Cloti as possible when it comes to sleeping arrangements, and the ultimania quotes such as the ones you mentioned also makes me think this slight ambiguity is absolutely by design.

I do think that AC wasn't so much anti-CT rather than giving both CT and CA something to enjoy the movie, however it did fire back with those women pitying Tifa. I think they should have shown Cloud and Tifa's bedroom, absolutely. This is also why they had to add so much CT and CT-family scenes in ACC (+ZA scenes), because very obviously, the way they catered to CA fans absolutely did kill the intent behind AC.

Hell, even the colours the film uses give the impression that Aerith is, or was, the only light in Cloud's life. If I remember correctly, basically the only character in the film who has colours other than dull colours like grey and black associated with them is Aerith, they even went through the effort of draining the colour from Tifa's eyes, and that to have basically no colour in the film except for Aerith and her flowers was done for a reason.

Nah the colours actually are used to show Cloud's mind; he's depressed at first when he thinks he fails everything and is going to die and as hope comes back, so does colour. I will never forgive brown eyes Tifa though. It's as if Tifa cannot have something unique about her and I hate that. It's the same in Rebirth too, her reddish eyes are gone and it's SO ANNOYING.

The truth is yes I believe at some point the devs did at least let the audience think there was trouble in paradise for the sake of their story yes. And in OG they let them think Aerith was a romantic option for the sake of their narrative and mechanics and set up for a plot twist etc. I think it makes no sense to say: No they never meant for it to at least seem that way, because who are we kidding?

But I just don't think they intended that impression to last the entire time, they thought it would be resolved and people would see it as Cloud and Tifa overcoming trials instead of what actually happened. I don't think they realized how strong that initial impression was and they didn't do enough to be clear about it.

Yup, it was one of my grips with the OG, that Cloud and Tifa's story wasn't truly built up for the sake of the twist, and as a result, it did make the twist of Cloud being in love with Tia not believable - which is why many interpreted that as "in the PAST he loveD Tifa, but now he loves Aerith". This is what Rebirth is killing, Rebirth is saying to me that Cloud loves Tifa and even with Aerith around, he'd still chose Tifa.

 

[imach0c0]

From my reading of that thread, it's the other way around- if you go on an Aerith date, Cloud Nakama's Aerith. That said, testing should be easy enough.

EDIT: Wait, no, I see the clarification down below. That thread is written in an odd way. Now I'm curious if the exact trigger is one date specifically or if you can get mochiron with two. I mean it doesn't change anything, Aerith always comes off that exchange feeling like she was rejected (Which she sort of was, since Cloud didn't even understand the question) and admits she doesn't even know what kind of like she feels for Cloud.


I mean, it vanished entirely in Disc 2 and 3 apart from the minor variance in the highwind scene, and the devs said "We only put it in because nostalgia obligations" so there's no point to add it into the third part of remake. Just go ham on the Under the Highwind sequence instead.

If I am understanding correctly --

Chapter 8 date with Aerith = LA dream date line (nakama))
Chapter 12 date with Aerith = HA (mochiron)

However, I have seen playthroughs where players who got the Chapter 8 Aerith date AND Chapter 12 Tifa date got the the HA dream date option.

So I am not sure if there is a logic to the mechanic that triggers the LA/HA dream date options. Does anyone have further insights on this?

 

[Ryeleigh]

But that was the way in was painted before Rebirth and we can't not acknowledge that impression came from somewhere. Everything, even wrong impressions come from somewhere.

Edited to make my point clearer. I'm not big on blaming the devs but I definitely think if in this particular case people got the wrong impression it's because of how certain things were presented or executed lead to such an impression.

I think in general it is not logical to say this impression came from nowhere, that it's just people clearly being delusional.

This isn't really FF7-related but there are definitely people who willfully have wrong impressions about something. I mean, I don't want to say it's "delusional" because all shippers intrinsically take nice moments between their ships and spin them into romance even if they were 1000% platonic and not intended that way at all. The characters don't even need to be in the same story or franchise for people to ship them. Then add to that the current nature of fandom where people don't really venture out of their own carefully crafted bubbles and they do kind of end up creating this self-sustaining hamster wheel of wrong impressions built from fever dreams, lighting, wallpaper, cakes, cucumber water, and clothes. These sorts of shippers are usually the ones who get in their heads that their ship is not only a canon thing but they also start demanding that it be a canon thing.

But I guess on this thread when we talk about not-delusional-shippers we mean the average fan and not extremes, lol.

Aerith still comes on relatively strong, though. Even after Aerith claims they were on a date, sure he throws Tifa an upset "it isn't what it looks like" look, but he also hardly pulls his arm away or says anything about it when Tifa is actually looking at them.

To be fair, that might just be typical kind-hearted harem-protagonist behaviour because most harem-protagonists are complete wet mats who can't reject the advances of a girl or clear a misunderstanding to save their life. No feelings for the other girl need to exist.

 

[imach0c0]

Welcome back.

Though it's still fresh in my head so I will say in Nibelhiem the scene with Aerith on the water tower is an interesting topic for this jealousy topic too. Because my girl is clearly jealous of Cloud here. Jealous he grew up in a town, with a childhood friend and she grew up in a lab with no friends. Jealousy need not be romantic linked.

I think there is a nuance to these jealous feelings as it seems to come from a place of envy. As she reflects on what Cloud had (the things she wishes she had), it plays in contrast to what she didn't have (as you mentioned above). Seeing how she mentions that it "stings more than it should" because she feels like she is being "taunted" by it gives an impression that she is almost resentful and unhappy. (though she doesn't seem to want to entertain those feelings)

As for the topic on the latest page. I've said before I do think in terms of Cloud's ego he is jealous of Zack to some extent, I really don't think that's a throwaway in OG put in for no reason. I think in Rebirth they just expand on his situation in more clear ways. And I was always took it as his complicated feelings are towards this other hero who he in the park scene is sitting in the same place of. I don't think it's romance related but could be ego related. Before this Aerith was all impressed with Cloud being a SOLDIER before she started teasing him for basically showing off and then he finds well he is not the only hero around here. I do get that sense.

And he is essentially in that same place that hero stood. It would definitely seem weird. Maybe even like having an imposter feeling like someone else should be sitting there instead. He might even feel bad about it. Like sorry I'm not him.

I don't know, but that's how I see that scene in terms of "complex feelings". Aerith is talking about another guy here so I don't think he is even considering her feelings for him at all.

I got a similar impression in regards to the "complicated" feelings.

To add to this, when Cloud tells Tifa that he is leaving for Midgar to become SOLDIER, Tifa makes a comment that the other boys are leaving too. Cloud says he is not like the other boys who are just looking for work. He wants to be come a war hero like Sephiroth. It gives the impression that Cloud doesn't want to be considered like everyone else, but rather something special. With this context, when Aerith draws comparisons between Zack and Cloud, I can see that triggering this insecurity within himself. As he might not be all that special after all.

 

[Eerie]

To add to this, when Cloud tells Tifa that he is leaving for Midgar to become SOLDIER, Tifa makes a comment that the other boys are leaving too. Cloud says he is not like the other boys who are just looking for work. He wants to be come a war hero like Sephiroth. It gives the impression that Cloud doesn't want to be considered like everyone else, but rather something special. With this context, when Aerith draws comparisons between Zack and Cloud, I can see that triggering this insecurity within himself. As he might not be all that special after all.

I feel you're theorising on a thin line there: Cloud does not want to be special to everyone, he wants to become someone special to Tifa. So I don't think this is playing any role in how he acts/reacts with/towards Aerith.

 

[pxl_pushr]

“Complicated feelings” is one area where I think they could spare some time to clear up, especially between Tifa and Cloud about Aerith and Zack and Aerith about Cloud.

Originally, I don’t think the creators thought these things mattered all that much since, perhaps in their eyes, a few breadcrumbs and the overall story would guide people in the right direction. Shipped brain, however, is different from normal brain so symbolism is approached backwards ( go in with a preconceived notion and bash the symbolism into the shape you prefer ) and that’s the key to AC’s issue imo

Does color grading represent unresolved romantic feelings for one character specifically, or is reinforcing the idea that said character represents hope and life and her guidance to Cloud forgiving himself is the key to him finding his hope and life again: Tifa and the kids.

The ambiguity of their exact relationship can come off one way, but when I don’t think they figured people would overthink two individuals who expressed feelings for eachother living under the same roof and forming a family to be taken as platonic. Also, Japanese media can get kinda weird about PDA, almost as if the characters are aware the camera is there and are mindful of their manners.

They don’t approach the story from a shipping perspective, even if they’re aware of shipping culture. Above all else, I think, what may get to them is completely incorrect character assassinations for any of the characters. I think that’s the single most important goal for Nojima, leave no room to misunderstand these characters and their intentions.

With Rebirth, it’s so crucial to remember we only have Disc 1 covered. Replay OG and stop at disc 1, delete your knowledge of disc 2 and try to describe the story yourself. It’s a completely different read because the game is actively manipulating you up to and slightly beyond this point.

I’m of the mind that everything from TotA forward in Rebirth is foundation primarily for NC and into getting real Cloud back. The change was to give more foreshadowing so the twists don’t come off so jarring.

 

[imach0c0]

I feel you're theorising on a thin line there: Cloud does not want to be special to everyone, he wants to become someone special to Tifa. So I don't think this is playing any role in how he acts/reacts with/towards Aerith.

Edit:

Perhaps I used the word special in the wrong context.

Yes - Cloud wants to become "special" to Tifa and that feeling is unique to her. The point I was trying to make is that as a child, Cloud did not want to be like the other kids and wanted to become a hero (which is rooted in his desire to be special to Tifa). So when Aerith draws comparisons to Zack, perhaps that comparison may have also triggered an emotional chord (or rather an insecurity within himself) as he may have felt uncomfortable being compared to another SOLDIER, as he not only wanted to be different from the others but its almost a challenge to his ego in how he views himself.

Does that make sense?

 

[imach0c0]

Nah the colours actually are used to show Cloud's mind; he's depressed at first when he thinks he fails everything and is going to die and as hope comes back, so does colour. I will never forgive brown eyes Tifa though. It's as if Tifa cannot have something unique about her and I hate that. It's the same in Rebirth too, her reddish eyes are gone and it's SO ANNOYING.

IIRC - I think Nomura mentioned that art direction wise, it was intended to have to the world dark and unsaturated as he wanted to exude the feelings of guilt and grief in Cloud's world. Its also why by the end of the film, he removes the sleeve as it shows the contrast between his accepted self and his closed off self (with the sleeve).

 

[Ryushikaze]

If I am understanding correctly --

Chapter 8 date with Aerith = LA dream date line (nakama))
Chapter 12 date with Aerith = HA (mochiron)

However, I have seen playthroughs where players who got the Chapter 8 Aerith date AND Chapter 12 Tifa date got the the HA dream date option.

So I am not sure if there is a logic to the mechanic that triggers the LA/HA dream date options. Does anyone have further insights on this?

I think the trigger is that if you do either Aerith date, you get "High Affection" dream date, if you do neither, you get 'low'.


BTW, I've seen several claims recently that Aerith's OG GS date is the official one and I have no clue where that's supposed to be coming from. Does anyone have any clue about where people are getting that from, especially given that Tifa's theme is part of Words Drowned out by fireworks?



Oh, also, has anyone seen the recent attempt to prove Tifa was a last minute addition that uses as evidence the very early relationship chart that shows Tifa and not Aerith? Good times.

 

[MissMDusk]

I think the trigger is that if you do either Aerith date, you get "High Affection" dream date, if you do neither, you get 'low'.


BTW, I've seen several claims recently that Aerith's OG GS date is the official one and I have no clue where that's supposed to be coming from. Does anyone have any clue about where people are getting that from, especially given that Tifa's theme is part of Words Drowned out by fireworks?



Oh, also, has anyone seen the recent attempt to prove Tifa was a last minute addition that uses as evidence the very early relationship chart that shows Tifa and not Aerith? Good times.

For the "Aerith's date is the canon date in OG" claim, as far as I can see it's because she has the highest affinity points at default in the OG, so technically if you were to go through the game without doing anything, you'd get her date.

Yet... I don't even think that's how the game works? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can just skip all the interactions that could either give you positive or negative points for any of the characters? Which means the affinity points are bound to change anyway, nevermind whatever each character starts with. Also, pretty sure I saw a quote on here from Nomura(?) that said, because you spend less time with her, they gave her more points.

For the second point, I honestly wish they would say that to Nomura's and Nojima's faces - ask them directly if Tifa was a last minute addition. They wouldn't dare.

All this hate and vitriol for Tifa, because she kissed the main character...

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

This isn't really FF7-related but there are definitely people who willfully have wrong impressions about something. I mean, I don't want to say it's "delusional" because all shippers intrinsically take nice moments between their ships and spin them into romance even if they were 1000% platonic and not intended that way at all. The characters don't even need to be in the same story or franchise for people to ship them. Then add to that the current nature of fandom where people don't really venture out of their own carefully crafted bubbles and they do kind of end up creating this self-sustaining hamster wheel of wrong impressions built from fever dreams, lighting, wallpaper, cakes, cucumber water, and clothes. These sorts of shippers are usually the ones who get in their heads that their ship is not only a canon thing but they also start demanding that it be a canon thing.

But I guess on this thread when we talk about not-delusional-shippers we mean the average fan and not extremes, lol.


To be fair, that might just be typical kind-hearted harem-protagonist behaviour because most harem-protagonists are complete wet mats who can't reject the advances of a girl or clear a misunderstanding to save their life. No feelings for the other girl need to exist.

Yeah I'm not really talking about hardcore shippers who are being willfully ignorant . More like more casual average movie goers, average video game players etc who misunderstood. Shipping brain is its own thing of course. And yes, your assessment is correct of some types of shippers. Some people don't want to be proven wrong and insist they have to be right no matter what.

But I'm convinced who devs needed to convince here wasn't really any specific shippers who either already like a certain coupling or hate it and refuse to accept it no matter what. But that they were trying to clear up the story to the more general casual audience and newer fans who don't collect Ultimanias or know every interview quote etc, didn't know about the novels etc. Making it clear in general so as many people as possible understand their story even if they haven't translated multiple Ultimania quotes and read every novel and watch the Complete version of AC. Which I brought up is probably a factor in the confusion the first time.

Note: Extremist shippers are their own different thing of course and I almost exclusively never talk about them because they're an exception to the rule not how things are or should be. The problem in many fandoms is many use them as a metric for how things are.
I don't think the devs take them much into consideration nor should they.


If that makes sense.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Yeah I'm not really talking about hardcore shippers here who are being willfully ignorant . More like more casual average movie goers, average video game players etc who misunderstood. Shipping brain is its own thing of course. Your assessment is correct of certain types of shippers. And yes some people don't want to be proven wrong and insist they have to be right no matter what.

But I'm convinced who devs needed to convince here wasn't really any specific shippers who either already like a certain coupling or hate it and refuse to accept it no matter what. But that they were trying to clear up the story to the more general casual audience and newer fans who don't collect Ultimanias or know every interview quote etc, didn't know about the novels etc. Making it clear in general so as many people as possible understand their story even if they haven't translated multiple Ultimania quotes and read every novel and watch the Complete version of AC. Which I brought up is probably a factor in the confusion the first time.

Note: Extremists are their own different thing of course and I almost exclusively never talk about them because they're an exception to the rule not how things are or should be. The problem in many fandoms is many use them as a metric for how things are.
I don't think the devs take them much into consideration nor should they.


If that makes sense.

It's really sad that the extremes are usually the ones who are very loud and drown out the other voices.