SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

Cali claims there is a perfect opportunity for a love confession in part 3. We all know what scene she's talking about, but the funny part is, there's already one in the game(s).

1. Lifestream Sequence.
2. Cloti GS date in Rebirth.

The predictions they make usually come true for us, so...keep predicting stuff Cleriths.

I mean, I said "go wrong" rather than "are wrong" for a reason.
And there were already a few love confessions in the OG you couldn't skip. We call them Mideel, the Lifestream Sequence, and again under the highwind. No sense removing them for Part 3.

Also, it strikes me that the list of FF canon pairs who are confirmed to live together is quite small. Locke and Celes don't get that, Squall and Rinoa, Irvine and Selphie, Zell and Pigtail girl do not, No one in FF9 gets that, not even Steiner and Beatrix, Tidus and Yuna IIRC don't, even before things shit the bed in 2.5, Noctis and Luna only get that in the extended ending of the novel, and Clive and Jill don't get that confirmation.
Vaan and Penelo sort of do, but they spend most of their time traveling.

Don't get me wrong, I think most of these people do, we just never see them do this, much less see them adopt a kid.

The standards applied to CT specifically are the highest in the franchise.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I mean, I said "go wrong" rather than "are wrong" for a reason.
And there were already a few love confessions in the OG you couldn't skip. We call them Mideel, the Lifestream Sequence, and again under the highwind. No sense removing them for Part 3.

Also, it strikes me that the list of FF canon pairs who are confirmed to live together is quite small. Locke and Celes don't get that, Squall and Rinoa, Irvine and Selphie, Zell and Pigtail girl do not, No one in FF9 gets that, not even Steiner and Beatrix, Tidus and Yuna IIRC don't, even before things shit the bed in 2.5, Noctis and Luna only get that in the extended ending of the novel, and Clive and Jill don't get that confirmation.
Vaan and Penelo sort of do, but they spend most of their time traveling.

Don't get me wrong, I think most of these people do, we just never see them do this, much less see them adopt a kid.

The standards applied to CT specifically are the highest in the franchise.

Absurdly high, to the point of on one hand claiming to know tropes inside and out while also having the other hand deny the simplest implications of Cloud and Tifa’s living situation.

Nojima strikes me as the type of writer who tries to avoid characters saying “I love you” in those exact terms and avoid showing you clerical proof of what should be obvious based on context clues. He may have to cave in this case, and I have mixed feelings about that.

 

[abzy1200]

The standards applied to CT specifically are the highest in the franchise.

"Cloti isn't canon because Denzel isn't their biological son"

Seriously, though. Cloud and Tifa - the first straight couple in existence to get the roommates treatment, with a son too.

Absurdly high, to the point of on one hand claiming to know tropes inside and out while also having the other hand deny the simplest implications of Cloud and Tifa’s living situation.

Because admitting to somebody that your motivation in life has been them for nearly your whole life just can't possibly be any type of romantic.

And it was admitted during a one-of-a-kind situation where your subconcious is melded to hers and you both end up in an ethereal world where you guide her through your most precious memories. Yet Cloud and Aerith are soulmates, despite the most soulmate-y scene in the entire game happening with...Tifa.

 

[pxl_pushr]

"Cloti isn't canon because Denzel isn't their biological son"

Seriously, though. Cloud and Tifa - the first straight couple in existence to get the roommates treatment, with a son too.


Because admitting to somebody that your motivation in life has been them for nearly your whole life just can't possibly be any type of romantic.

And it was admitted during a one-of-a-kind situation where your subconcious is melded to hers and you both end up in an ethereal world where you guide her through your most precious memories. Yet Cloud and Aerith are soulmates, despite the most soulmate-y scene in the entire game happening with...Tifa.

It’s one of, if not the most intimate scene in the entire franchise, to date. Everything good and bad about Cloud is on full display, and Tifa still accepts him regardless.

Doesn’t get any more unconditional than that.

That said, after watching the end to Rebirth again… I’m really suspecting the clarification on how Cloud’s persona works in relation to his true self may cause some… controversy and it may be narrative justification for making the kiss in Rebirth optional.

I’m wondering if Cloud will feel some kind of emotional detachment from Aerith’s death, as in he’ll remember the facts of the event, but the emotions tied to it won’t be there. We’ll see the scene in its entirety, but actual Cloud will react to it no differently than if he were watching it play out on a television.

 

[abzy1200]

I’m wondering if Cloud will feel some kind of emotional detachment from Aerith’s death, as in he’ll remember the facts of the event, but the emotions tied to it won’t be there. We’ll see the scene in its entirety, but actual Cloud will react to it no differently than if he were watching it play out on a television.

I mean, it is implied in the original that the Cloud we play as for most of the game has straight up another version of himself inside him that thinks independently of the persona. Him being spoken to after he fell into the church, for example. And by that same token, since this trapped Cloud is obviously aware of his surroundings, I don't see why he couldn't independently form opinions on things around him, including people.

I've always kinda seen that his persona is meta, in the sense that he truly is a puppet, since you as a player are playing as him and deciding what he says. Which is why the dialogue options more or less dissappear after the Northern Crater.

But then it's a question of whether or not SOLDIER Cloud dissappears or merges with Real Cloud.

It’s one of, if not the most intimate scene in the entire franchise, to date. Everything good and bad about Cloud is on full display, and Tifa still accepts him regardless.

By far and away my most anticipated scene in part 3, Northern Crater and Mideel aren't too far behind.

But anyways, I fail to think of another scene as intimate as it, or like it. It is an exclusively Tifa and Cloti thing, where as Aerith showing up and reaching her hand out to Cloud happens for Kadaj, and Zack also appears to Cloud in the film, and Aerith also appears to interact with nameless children in the church at the end of the film. Cloti wins again on the soulmate front, which is funny, because you'll never guess which side of this "debate" bangs on about soulmatism the most.

 

[MissMDusk]

Cali claims there is a perfect opportunity for a love confession in part 3.

I don't get this... Hasn't Aerith technically confessed to Cloud twice in Rebirth? What's the point of having ANOTHER confession?

These people only see FF7 through some dumb shipping lense, which is so unfortunate. The game is full of rich characters, a (now maybe needlessly) complex plot with relatable overarching themes.

But BECAUSE the endgame has to end with a certain ship, these people choose to break, twist and force in certain plot predictions for part 3 that makes no sense after thinking about it for 5 seconds, the whole theory falls apart. They haven't given a reason as to why the game shouldn't end on a similar path the OG did. Did they think the devs hated the way they ended the original game? That the devs hated the OG end so much that they would completely change it in this remake, breaking all themes told by the OG on life, death and repentance? Do they think the devs hated AC/ACC so much that they'd make a new ending to completely invalidate it?

The devs even went out of their way to make corrections to AC with ACC, to get their point across about Cloud suffering from grief, thinking he didn't deserve to be happy with his family as two of his closest friends died seemingly 'by his hand'. They spent money to make this ending for FF7... twice.

They remake CC before Rebirth, almost showing a continuation on where they left off with Zack's story. They rerelease ACC (I don't believe they have ever referenced or rerelease the original AC) to cement how the characters end in this universe. Nojima has made books to elaborate and expand the lore of FF7... To just throw that away for some ship?

I really don't get it.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant, I think certain extremes are becoming crazier the closer we get to part 3 and seemingly the end of this saga. The amount of crazy takes I've seen of Tifa, Zack and Cloud all for the sake of CA is insane. Same with some takes on Aerith all because of CT. People suggesting Cloud "barely tolerated" Aerith throughout Rebirth is so ew, such a disrespect to the characters.

 

[Ryeleigh]

These people only see FF7 through some dumb shipping lense, which is so unfortunate.

This is why I don't really like shipping meta, not even for canon ships and even less for non-canon ships. I find most shipping meta so reductive for the story and all characters involved.

People suggesting Cloud "barely tolerated" Aerith throughout Rebirth is so ew, such a disrespect to the characters.

There are moments when he's blunt with her. Not "are you really that desperate" levels of blunt but blunt nevertheless. But it's also obvious that Cloud's fond of Aerith as he's fond of all of his "nakama". Like, that's one of the points of his journey, lol.

 

[MissMDusk]

This is why I don't really like shipping meta, not even for canon ships and even less for non-canon ships. I find most shipping meta so reductive for the story and all characters involved.

Because the narrative includes a subplot of romance for certain characters, and that there is a "love triangle" at play for the first half of the game, shipping is bound to be a factor. And that's fine, enjoy what you want.

But I wish people would stop diminishing and demonizing characters for the sake of a ship. You're (not you, but the extremists) immediately incorrect the second you attempt to paint characters in an awful light. Yes, they have flaws, but does anyone really think the devs wanted you to hate the characters you're playing?? You think they want you to have a miserable time by investing development into these characters we spend most our game on? Come on...

Also I wish they stop acting like they care about characters when they're clearly trying to just isolate them and push them out the story... For a ship. (Insert: "Tifa deserves better!" also: "She should be independent and alone and away from Cloud who's on the brink of suicide!"). I always laugh when they say that Zack's story has run its course when I feel it's, in fact, the prelude. It's part 1 of his journey to eventually finding Aerith. You don't just make a character like him, fully encompassed in his mission to save Aerith, leave him at the "place of memories" established before, have him talk about the worlds meeting again... To just not use him.

I just find it funny when people ask them "So what do you think happens to Zack in part 3?" , they just go... shrugs. Like what?? How does that make sense? Another example: "Why did CT kiss and CA didn't?", "It's just fanservice" they say... "He kissed Tifa because he couldn't kiss Aerith. It was a jealousy rebound friendzone jenova fanservice ship-ending kiss... No biggie." There's no way they believe this

 

[Ryeleigh]

Because the narrative includes a subplot of romance for certain characters, and that there is a "love triangle" at play for the first half of the game, shipping is bound to be a factor. And that's fine, enjoy what you want.

To be fair, shippers are gonna ship even with stories that have zero romance or love triangles, lol. Sometimes they even invent a love triangle.

But most of the extreme behaviour usually correlates with demanding canon/fandom validation. Like, it's not that deep, lmao. Just ship your little paper dolls and stop arguing and twisting everything into pretzels.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Absurdly high, to the point of on one hand claiming to know tropes inside and out while also having the other hand deny the simplest implications of Cloud and Tifa’s living situation.

Nojima strikes me as the type of writer who tries to avoid characters saying “I love you” in those exact terms and avoid showing you clerical proof of what should be obvious based on context clues. He may have to cave in this case, and I have mixed feelings about that.

I think he's getting sick of people deliberately misunderstanding his characters and their relationships. He might push Cloud to be very blunt. Maybe even to a "It's you, it's always been you" level of bluntness.

"Cloti isn't canon because Denzel isn't their biological son"

Seriously, though. Cloud and Tifa - the first straight couple in existence to get the roommates treatment, with a son too.

Not only that but said son and the daughter they are fostering are 'claimed' for CA as 'spiritual children'
I've made the joke that the rules of the game for Cleriths is that 'If it's Tifa it's not romantic, if it's Aerith it is, no matter what 'it' is' and shit like claiming Marlene as Cloud and Aerith's "spiritual child" really makes that not a joke.

Also, talking about 'getting the roommates treatment' I am pretty sure the roommates in the "Oh my god they were roommates" clip were in fact actually roommates given just how mad the woman talking about them was about that fact.

Because admitting to somebody that your motivation in life has been them for nearly your whole life just can't possibly be any type of romantic.

And it was admitted during a one-of-a-kind situation where your subconcious is melded to hers and you both end up in an ethereal world where you guide her through your most precious memories. Yet Cloud and Aerith are soulmates, despite the most soulmate-y scene in the entire game happening with...Tifa.

Because Tifa doesn't count to them. Because they've defined the game such that she can't win.

This is why I don't really like shipping meta, not even for canon ships and even less for non-canon ships. I find most shipping meta so reductive for the story and all characters involved.


There are moments when he's blunt with her. Not "are you really that desperate" levels of blunt but blunt nevertheless. But it's also obvious that Cloud's fond of Aerith as he's fond of all of his "nakama". Like, that's one of the points of his journey, lol.

Cloud likes Aerith as a friend but he's clueless to the fact that she caught feelings for him, so he's annoyed by her talks of dates and what not. My hypothesis is that he's concluded she's making fun of him, because he's mad at her in those moments but chill with her when she's not talking about that stuff.

To be fair, shippers are gonna ship even with stories that have zero romance or love triangles, lol. Sometimes they even invent a love triangle.

But most of the extreme behaviour usually correlates with demanding canon/fandom validation. Like, it's not that deep, lmao. Just ship your little paper dolls and stop arguing and twisting everything into pretzels.

An excellent go to here is Gundam Wing. There was a super popular crackship that involved two people that literally met once in the entire series, and one of the two wanted to kill the other for causing the death of his wife.

 

[Eerie]

Holy... the devs took out this line in EC: x.com in Cosmo Canyon when Cloud goes "I'm...? we're here for you", like.... woah I'm so surprised.

 

[Stiggie]

Holy... the devs took out this line in EC: x.com in Cosmo Canyon when Cloud goes "I'm...? we're here for you", like.... woah I'm so surprised.

haha, oh wow. You know how there are characters who are clearly just characters of the opposite sex, but not positioned as love interests, and characters that the storytelling makes you understand ARE love interests, even if it's not explicitly stated? I've always maintained that there is nothing about Aerith that paints her as being a love interest except THAT single scene...and now they've lost even that.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I don't know why people in the comments on X are gloating and crowing. EC still has cute things for both CA and CT like Barret mimicking Aerith and Cloud during summer event and telling them to get a room or Aerith’s hey, hey, Cloud, are you jealous, are you?

EC streamlines a lot of stuff, but also adds stuff. The promise sticker is cute also.

I haven't lost anything. Aerith is a love interest, and always will have been. Regardless of endgame.

Anyway the streamer I watch that loves Sephiroth and likes both girls got Aerith standard date for c12 GS, the reactions were very emotional for the whole thing from play to skywheel, and even chat, including someone who is a big Tifa fan, always mentioning her, etc, said it was very romantic the skywheel scenes.

Edit; ok, yeah, I looked and apparently they strimlined some Tifa stuff as well. I personally think some (both sides ) are making a bigger deal of things than maybe necessary.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't know why people in the comments on X are gloating and crowing. EC still has cute things for both CA and CT like Barret mimicking Aerith and Cloud during summer event and telling them to get a room or Aerith’s hey, hey, Cloud, are you jealous, are you?

Do you have a video of the event showing Barret making fun and what he's making fun of?

Also I can see why people are reacting because for many years, the "I... We" line was put forward as an indicator that Cloud was thinking of Aerith romantically. Likewise the change to Gongaga in EC actually removes the possibility that Cloud can declare that he's jealous of Zack. Now it's Aerith's teasing alone, for which she apologizes.

EC streamlines a lot of stuff, but also adds stuff. The promise sticker is cute also.

I haven't lost anything. Aerith is a love interest, and always will have been. Regardless of endgame.

Politely, I disagree, at least with regards to Cloud. She's a love interest to Zack, and a potential love interest for Cloud, but she never becomes a love interest. He's never aware she's interested in him and he only has eyes for another woman. In that regard she's much like Cissnei, who was ironically in her same position regarding Zack.

Anyway the streamer I watch that loves Sephiroth and likes both girls got Aerith standard date for c12 GS, the reactions were very emotional for the whole thing from play to skywheel, and even chat, including someone who is a big Tifa fan, always mentioning her, etc, said it was very romantic the skywheel scenes.

In a vacuum, it very well could be. It's just in the greater context of him not knowing her being interested, him have literally just remembered she was dating his best friend who died (which he's correct about, if wrong in the details) and wanting to make sure she had closure about his death, in contrast with the other date, etc. that it loses the air of romance while still remaining emotional and tender.

Edit; ok, yeah, I looked and apparently they strimlined some Tifa stuff as well.

What have they streamlined, do you know?

 

[Maidenofwar]

Well, I haven't played the latest story myself yet but apparently two of Cloud's responses, one for Aerith and one for Tifa are changed to "..."

Here's the scene with Barret mimicking Aerith and Cloud, from around 5.18 -

I'm not saying this is something huge meaning or deep thing though, just cute, funny, and something for people to enjoy like the Easter event.

If yeah, why not?, only happens after Aerith date, I think Cloud knows ... something.

**

Nobody including myself wants to spoil anything for the streamer I watch, so they don't know about the intimate dates yet. There's to be no discussion or showing of that until the game ends. Due to the nature of the play through and no spoilers rule both c8 and c12 were big surprises. Since for this streamer it was Aerith both times c14 should be interesting. Looking forward to the streams of the rest of the game.

 

[imach0c0]

Holy... the devs took out this line in EC: x.com in Cosmo Canyon when Cloud goes "I'm...? we're here for you", like.... woah I'm so surprised.

Why do you think it was taken out?

 

[redoak77]

Why do you think it was taken out?

I've been seeing a lot of hullaballoo about it being taken out. In the grand scheme of things, it genuinely means nothing.

More than anything, we'll get some real insight about whether things are gonna be different in EC in how they tackle TOA and FC

 

[abzy1200]

I've been seeing a lot of hullaballoo about it being taken out. In the grand scheme of things, it genuinely means nothing.

Both moments being more or less removed (as a clerith thing) means that they were moments the devs took notice of, and decided to change it.

For what reason, I couldn't tell you, but it must have been on their radar to have them put in the effort to change it instead of just pasting it from the original.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Or it means nothing and they really didn't put that much thought into it just as removing Cloud's "What is it?" to Tifa means nothing, also changed to "..."

EC cuts out a lot from the games or makes things kind of different.

 

[abzy1200]

1. I'm talking about the "but I'm...we're here for you, right?" as well. Not just Gongaga.
2. That moment isn't a cloti moment that clotis flock to as the jealous one is a Clerith moment that people actually did give attention and care about.
3. I highly doubt there was zero thought at all put into it. It was a concious decision to have it changed.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah most CTs don’t really put much importance to CT scenes before disc 2 tbh. Gongaga has never meant much, but if anything we had a good scene with it in EC now.

Personally I think they are trying to make themselves a little bit clearer with EC and we’re seeing what a close remake/non expanded/ of OG would look like.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I could be misremembering, but haven't you mentioned before Eerie, about Cloud and Tifa at Cosmo Canyon being important?

 

[Eerie]

It being important for the plot doesn’t mean it’s romantic though it’s not a romance scene but it’s still very important is what I mean. And it’s still there in EC too.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It being important for the plot doesn’t mean it’s romantic though it’s not a romance scene but it’s still very important is what I mean. And it’s still there in EC too.

Just to have the full thought here, and correct me if I’m wrong @Eerie

Tifa expresses doubts in Cosmo Canyon that Cloud is really Cloud, and in Gongaga her reaction to Zack being brought up is similar ( not sure if this is true for Gongaga in EC, so anyone playing it can verify )

That then is used to logic out that Tifa’s original GS Date that gets interrupted is actually a romantic confession vs her bringing up anything about Cloud’s faulty memory.

Again, I may be misrepresenting that line of thought, so anyone feel free to set the record straight.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, I haven't played the latest story myself yet but apparently two of Cloud's responses, one for Aerith and one for Tifa are changed to "..."

Here's the scene with Barret mimicking Aerith and Cloud, from around 5.18 -

Ah this one. I hadn't seen the full thing in english before. Hard to call that a cute CA moment exactly because what comes before Barret's mockery is Cloud getting very flustered upon seeing Tifa's new outfit and Aerith teasing him about that. Maybe it's a win for the OT3 crowd.

I'm not saying this is something huge meaning or deep thing though, just cute, funny, and something for people to enjoy like the Easter event.

If yeah, why not?, only happens after Aerith date, I think Cloud knows ... something.

Interesting to note, the mocap artist for Cloud has been playing the game and he got to the ch14 sector 5. He knows the script from the backend, and he was actually a bit confused, because he was expecting a full sentence there, both the Mochiron and the Nakama parts.

As for what Cloud knows, even if he does know, there's everything else to contend with. It's actually more damning for the CA ship if Cloud does know how Aerith feels, because that means she "knows where she stands" with him even when he knows how she feels.

**

Nobody including myself wants to spoil anything for the streamer I watch, so they don't know about the intimate dates yet. There's to be no discussion or showing of that until the game ends. Due to the nature of the play through and no spoilers rule both c8 and c12 were big surprises. Since for this streamer it was Aerith both times c14 should be interesting. Looking forward to the streams of the rest of the game.

Are you going to inform them of the existence of the other dates and the intimate versions after the plot wraps up then?