SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[abzy1200]

I think a Clerith endgame could exist. The story would need to be changed in a lot of ways though.

Sorry for any misunderstanding, I should have clarified that I'm talking about people who claim Clerith to be endgame as the compilation is right now.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think that Cleriths appear to hate Tifa more than Clotis appear to hate Aerith because claiming Clerith as endgame necessitates grossly mischaracterising Tifa while Cloti does not have to do the same for Aerith.

Claiming Clerith as endgame necessitates:

-Making Tifa out to be an oblivious third-wheeler who invited herself to Cloud and Aerith's romantic reunion in death.
-Making Tifa seem like a nasty woman giving Cloud ultimatums ("A memory or us?" I know this isn't what is said, but this is what gets used in argument. )

That line isn't even about Aerith, but Sephiroth and the memory of failure.

I think a Clerith endgame could exist. The story would need to be changed in a lot of ways though.

Remake Trilogy had the opportunity to institute those changes, but it did not.

The issue now is, if Clerith is endgame, then why did they waste all of Rebirth to do any build up? You can argue they do so at the very end, but it's kinda too late. Moreover, why build up the Cloti stuff just to 180?

Even the "CA" ending bits are very ZA in the end, what with being part of his narrative chapters, Aerith being confused about her type of like, and the repeated cuts to him at key points.

Toxic Cloti/Tifa fandom was majorly NLOG coded

Acronym explanation please. My brain is defaulting to a programming library

back in the day. Idk how much it's really changed now since these days I have become more enlightened centrist in finding both sides annoying

I mean finding the whole damn thing annoying is status quo for the LTD, really.

 

[GamerSkull]

Acronym explanation please. My brain is defaulting to a programming library

I think it's "Not Like Other Girls" in that Tifa is just super special and better than other female characters..... I think.

Even the "CA" ending bits are very ZA in the end, what with being part of his narrative chapters, Aerith being confused about her type of like, and the repeated cuts to him at key points.

The weird thing about that is that so many people seem to either miss or ignore it. And just think the point of that part is Aerith's confession right before she says goodbye. However, I just feel like it has to be intentional. The devs chose to have multiple cuts to Zack in the middle of it, they chose to make Stamp resemble Zack, they chose to have Zack sit in front of the church after Aerith mentions "our place." Not to mention the numerous flowers appearing around Zack to guide him.

I've seen a few people write that off as nothing but like... scenes are framed by directors the way they are for a reason. There has to be some reason behind it.

 

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah, it's typically used to differentiate the "cool girls" from the more traditionally girly ones. I think Aerith and Tifa both get that treatment depending on one's view of traditional femininity. Like Tifa is so much better for being a fighter and not wearing pink girly dresses, or Aerith is better for being outspoken and not being quiet and nurturing. All comes back to the same old sexist idea of there being a wrong way to be a woman

Anyway, yeah I already got the suspicion while playing Remake that they were leaning a lot harder into Cloti this time around (hard not to notice some big changes when playing practically side-by-side with the OG) but they absolutley could have taken the story in another direction if they wanted to. It's just that Rebirth very blatantly did not take that chance, and now the only path to a Clerith endgame would include either the devs taking time they do not have to undo Zerith and Cloti and giving Zack and Tifa some other rewarding storyline, or just tossing those characters aside like they mean nothing. Neither seems likely to me

 

[Xombii]

I think it's "Not Like Other Girls" in that Tifa is just super special and better than other female characters..... I think.


The weird thing about that is that so many people seem to either miss or ignore it. And just think the point of that part is Aerith's confession right before she says goodbye. However, I just feel like it has to be intentional. The devs chose to have multiple cuts to Zack in the middle of it, they chose to make Stamp resemble Zack, they chose to have Zack sit in front of the church after Aerith mentions "our place." Not to mention the numerous flowers appearing around Zack to guide him.

I've seen a few people write that off as nothing but like... scenes are framed by directors the way they are for a reason. There has to be some reason behind it.

I feel like this whole section is REALLY obviously trying to tell us something, but also that it relies on the person observing to have knowledge of things like CC and also to have understood the links between the two at this point. For me, the first time I went through it left me with a really uneasy feeling, that something was very wrong about all of it just through the body language and unnatural way Cloud was acting at times. The stamps being stand ins for Zack were fairly obvious, and everything going wrong.

But I'm someone who knows what is going to happen and has played CC. It took me a few runs through and reading other people's observations to come to a point where I understand what's really going on here and what's being conveyed. I have seen streamers and other people soooort of get it, a little bit? But perhaps this is where it trips the 'maybe both girls' or 'look at them on a date!' types.

What I'm saying is it looks obvious to people who already know what's going on. This is one of those scenes that I imagine has been added for people playing through after they beat the whole series in like 3-4 years. We feel like they're being blunt and smacking us with this. Perhaps to other people it's too obscure. I like it though, I feel frustration is from the expectation for other people to care enough to think about it. Plus those people who wilfully misinterpret and yell their opinions to whoever they feel they can convince.

 

[billy22]

I'll try to catch up with posts here...I needed a break from the forum to play Trails Through Daybreak.

How was it? I vaguely recall someone telling me it had a developing love triangle.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

I feel like this whole section is REALLY obviously trying to tell us something, but also that it relies on the person observing to have knowledge of things like CC and also to have understood the links between the two at this point. For me, the first time I went through it left me with a really uneasy feeling, that something was very wrong about all of it just through the body language and unnatural way Cloud was acting at times. The stamps being stand ins for Zack were fairly obvious, and everything going wrong.

But I'm someone who knows what is going to happen and has played CC. It took me a few runs through and reading other people's observations to come to a point where I understand what's really going on here and what's being conveyed. I have seen streamers and other people soooort of get it, a little bit? But perhaps this is where it trips the 'maybe both girls' or 'look at them on a date!' types.

What I'm saying is it looks obvious to people who already know what's going on. This is one of those scenes that I imagine has been added for people playing through after they beat the whole series in like 3-4 years. We feel like they're being blunt and smacking us with this. Perhaps to other people it's too obscure. I like it though, I feel frustration is from the expectation for other people to care enough to think about it. Plus those people who wilfully misinterpret and yell their opinions to whoever they feel they can convince.

I agree mostly on what you say, but is not that difficult to see what the game tells, ngl we can miss a thing or two, even when you know the compilation, but like you said a lot of new players take for example youtubers and streamers that play blind without any knowledge and you can see they get the story easily. I feel bad for those that fall prey of the delulus in their chats. There is nothing worse than those "fans" that misinterpret (or do not play) the games + lore for shipping reasons and gaslight others about it.

 

[Xombii]

Yea, it's hard for me to see it as difficult to grasp, but I want to be generous and maybe figure out why people seem to miss the very obvious. The writing is clever and they definitely are sort of teasing the other side all the way through rebirth, to me it feels almost like mocking and poking fun at 'the delulus,' especially in costa. The issue being that the people these hints are intended for are willingly ignoring them with their 'Aer only' 'routes.'

Imagine getting the bad ending and thinking you won. I wonder if part three will make something of this.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

Yea, it's hard for me to see it as difficult to grasp, but I want to be generous and maybe figure out why people seem to miss the very obvious. The writing is clever and they definitely are sort of teasing the other side all the way through rebirth, to me it feels almost like mocking and poking fun at 'the delulus,' especially in costa. The issue being that the people these hints are intended for are willingly ignoring them with their 'Aer only' 'routes.'

Imagine getting the bad ending and thinking you won. I wonder if part three will make something of this.

The Devs have stated from the beginning there is little room for interpretation and the games are clearly showing the direction they are headed. Even with the games poking fun or mocking "them" like you said, the fact that "they" are still willingly gaslighting themselves for shipping reasons tells you they are not true fans of the series. IMHO Aerith's resolution in Remake is a blatant message for the players and Sephiroth's "cloudy eyes" too. Don't bother with those that won't accept the story as it is, the Devs know "them" and they said there is nothing they can do about it.
Thank God FF7 is a linear game with only one ending.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You know what gets me? Cleriths never call out bad takes and bullshit in their fandom. Or at least it seems that way. People getting caught out as being undeniable liars and making absolute shit up and yet other folks in the shipdom still keep going to bat for them and the nonsense they spew.

 

[GamerSkull]

You know what gets me? Cleriths never call out bad takes and bullshit in their fandom. Or at least it seems that way. People getting caught out as being undeniable liars and making absolute shit up and yet other folks in the shipdom still keep going to bat for them and the nonsense they spew.

This feels directed at a specific one most of us seem to be aware of lmao.

I mean... Clotis have that Silverwield person that goes overboard.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This feels directed at a specific one most of us seem to be aware of lmao.

I mean... Clotis have that Silverwield person that goes overboard.

A few of them.

As for Silverwield, not familiar with his/her antics. Details?

 

[GamerSkull]

A few of them.

As for Silverwield, not familiar with his/her antics. Details?

I'm not overly familiar either but I've heard many people in this thread mention them as a toxic Cloti.

I believe they also called Cloud emotionally manipulative after the NTPK trailer, IIRC.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

You know what gets me? Cleriths never call out bad takes and bullshit in their fandom. Or at least it seems that way. People getting caught out as being undeniable liars and making absolute shit up and yet other folks in the shipdom still keep going to bat for them and the nonsense they spew.

The power of conviction and gaslighting on the weak minded.
As for Silverwield she does not spread lies like the toxic cleariths, she debates with facts and evidence. She completely dislikes Aerith for the way she treats Tifa (backstabbing your true and only BFF).

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm not overly familiar either but I've heard many people in this thread mention them as a toxic Cloti.

I believe they also called Cloud emotionally manipulative after the NTPK trailer, IIRC.

The power of conviction and gaslighting on the weak minded.
As for Silverwield she does not spread lies like the toxic cleariths, she debates with facts and evidence. She completely dislikes Aerith for the way she treats Tifa (backstabbing your true and only BFF).

Yeah, the crime of being a jackass isn't quite the same as editing screenshots and faking evidence and defending those people.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, the crime of being a jackass isn't quite the same as editing screenshots and faking evidence and defending those people.

There was one that provided "evidence" that if you do the least amount of side content, you get the Aerith date.

I just don't believe most players would choose to not do any of the side content. There will be some who do all or just some of it... but rare is the person who does NONE of it.

That also ignores the fact that a lot of the time in games; the best outcome needs to be "earned" anyway... so doing the least amount of content would give you a lesser outcome.

 

[Shadowstorm]

There was one that provided "evidence" that if you do the least amount of side content, you get the Aerith date.

I just don't believe most players would choose to not do any of the side content. There will be some who do all or just some of it... but rare is the person who does NONE of it.

That also ignores the fact that a lot of the time in games; the best outcome needs to be "earned" anyway... so doing the least amount of content would give you a lesser outcome.

Isn't it way more common for this type of game to consider everything canon than to consider nothing canon? I mean Rebirth goes as far as to reference Tifa winning an optional mini game chain, I think it's safe to assume the canon route would be to just do everything

 

[Ryushikaze]

There was one that provided "evidence" that if you do the least amount of side content, you get the Aerith date.

I just don't believe most players would choose to not do any of the side content. There will be some who do all or just some of it... but rare is the person who does NONE of it.

That also ignores the fact that a lot of the time in games; the best outcome needs to be "earned" anyway... so doing the least amount of content would give you a lesser outcome.

This is not true, though. If you do the least amount of side content you get the boys night date.
Also IIRC that was Cali and her point was that "Aerith gets more affection than Tifa if you do the absolute minimum, but A: she did not explain her methodology B: her results are immediately suspect because you can see she did the costume bonus for Aerith but not Tifa and most importantly C: The affection meter doesn't represent Cloud's feelings, and almost certainly doesn't actually change how the characters see cloud in the narrative anyways.

And yeah, generally you assume the player does everything. And in situations where that's literally not possible and the question of which version happened is not answered you tend to assume none and/or all happened, sort of like how None of the dates is canon but all of them are true.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

There was one that provided "evidence" that if you do the least amount of side content, you get the Aerith date.

I just don't believe most players would choose to not do any of the side content. There will be some who do all or just some of it... but rare is the person who does NONE of it.

That also ignores the fact that a lot of the time in games; the best outcome needs to be "earned" anyway... so doing the least amount of content would give you a lesser outcome.

The fact that you (the player) needs to do other character's sidequest to unlock Tifa's, make earning that kiss even more rewarding.

 

[GamerSkull]

Isn't it way more common for this type of game to consider everything canon than to consider nothing canon? I mean Rebirth goes as far as to reference Tifa winning an optional mini game chain, I think it's safe to assume the canon route would be to just do everything

Yeah, the game does assume you did all the optional stuff in the last game. So it's likely that Part 3 will assume you did all of the content. For instance, I have not done the Gilgamesh fight but I bet you the next game will act like I did.

This is not true, though. If you do the least amount of side content you get the boys night date.
Also IIRC that was Cali and her point was that "Aerith gets more affection than Tifa if you do the absolute minimum, but A: she did not explain her methodology B: her results are immediately suspect because you can see she did the costume bonus for Aerith but not Tifa and most importantly C: The affection meter doesn't represent Cloud's feelings, and almost certainly doesn't actually change how the characters see cloud in the narrative anyways.

And yeah, generally you assume the player does everything. And in situations where that's literally not possible and the question of which version happened is not answered you tend to assume none and/or all happened, sort of like how None of the dates is canon but all of them are true.

Really? For some reason, I was under the impression you can't get the Boys Night Date until chapter select. Weird, now I'm wondering where I heard that.

The person I saw use that "evidence" showed the play log for both characters I think. But it does not tell us what dialogue options they used. It's quite possible they gave the worst responses to Tifa and the best to Aerith.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, the game does assume you did all the optional stuff in the last game. So it's likely that Part 3 will assume you did all of the content. For instance, I have not done the Gilgamesh fight but I bet you the next game will act like I did.


Really? For some reason, I was under the impression you can't get the Boys Night Date until chapter select. Weird, now I'm wondering where I heard that.

The person I saw use that "evidence" showed the play log for both characters I think. But it does not tell us what dialogue options they used. It's quite possible they gave the worst responses to Tifa and the best to Aerith.

Yeah, and that play log shows that she gave Aerith the same Clothes bump and Tifa the beach fight bump instead of determining what the actual bump value might be and normalizing it. It's very poor science all around.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, and that play log shows that she gave Aerith the same Clothes bump and Tifa the beach fight bump instead of determining what the actual bump value might be and normalizing it. It's very poor science all around.

I remember playing with the full intention of wanting Tifa as a date but my OCD made it so I had to do all the sidequests and try to be as nice as possible to everyone. So by the time I got to it, I fully expected not to get her. But I did, after doing all the sidequests. But I think I got the beach fight and clothes bump for Tifa so that was probably what did it.

I think it was also probably due to dialogue as I think there may have been once instance where I gave Aerith a middle response.

 

[abzy1200]

As for Silverwield, not familiar with his/her antics. Details?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I remember playing with the full intention of wanting Tifa as a date but my OCD made it so I had to do all the sidequests and try to be as nice as possible to everyone. So by the time I got to it, I fully expected not to get her. But I did, after doing all the sidequests. But I think I got the beach fight and clothes bump for Tifa so that was probably what did it.

I think it was also probably due to dialogue as I think there may have been once instance where I gave Aerith a middle response.

I'm actually curious about the mechanical breakdown of the sidequests and the value they add to the AV. I know I didn't do all the sidequests perfectly the first time around and didn't do the Maru quest until after the date, but I still got Tifa's date, and I was trying to max out everyone's affinity (Barret was my lowest, I think, at 85%)

I know the discussion answers are worth between 1 and 3 points, IIRC, because I am 2 points away from 100% on Tifa and I'm about as many points shy from maxing out her dialogue options. I know the Beach fight option is almost certainly 5 or less points worth of "affinity" because I haven't gone back for Aerith's version of that fight and I think that's how many points away from max she is.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, and that play log shows that she gave Aerith the same Clothes bump and Tifa the beach fight bump instead of determining what the actual bump value might be and normalizing it. It's very poor science all around.

I mean, isn't it Cali who made this?