SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryeleigh]

After consuming an ungodly amount of anime/manga when the world shut down in 2020, I feel like I understand these fans better. As it turns out, anime watchers can safely turn off their brains most of the time. Throw a dart at a random story with multiple love interests while knowing nothing about the actual plot, and you can still guess the "winner" 80% of the time based off tropes, character design and the front cover.

Now that I know what a Cherry Blossom Girl is, I can see why they're so fixated on Aerith's floral theme, symbolism and Japanese culture. Throw in First Girl Wins, Bodyguard Crush and White Magician Girl and in most other stories, her romance armor would be more powerful than Great Gospel. Thanks to Advent Children we know that Her Death Was Only The Beginning leading to the opportunity for Eternal Love.

Meanwhile Zack is a Romantic False Lead and Tifa also gets forced into less flattering tropes, as if they're trying to bind evil spirits. She gets played up as Clingy Jealous Girl as well as Fanservice Character, which combined with the Highwind scene spells her doom because you Can't Act Perverted Toward A Love Interest. There's also the angle that she's Loving A Shadow claiming she never knew the "real" Cloud, or In Love With Being In Love if you squint hard at the Promise. And while the Childhood Friend Romance is a common trope, it's a bit of a crapshoot really with no guarantee of a Relationship Upgrade.

Some argue that Japanese tastes aren't obvious to western fans, and I've found that to be true to an extent. Example: I never understood why kuuderes are so popular, but apparently there's a reason Rei Ayanami's been cloned (heh) in a million other shows. Of course this has also been weaponized by gatekeepers who insist Japanese fans are the true audience and Tifa just isn't appealing to them because... black color scheme represents the number 4 or <insert some other Destiny Fulfilled explanation here>.

Tropes and framing exist for a reason, and I don't think most fans are delusional idiots. The problem is that writers know how we think, and the only way to surprise us is to subvert our expections. That's exactly what FFVII does. The tropes that were set up all get blown sky high. After the second act all bets are off, and we shouldn't be letting symbolism and expectations based on past experience do the heavy lifting. We should be saying: whoa, I didn't see that coming, now I'm awake and engaged and retracing my steps. Just who the hell is this Cloud Strife guy, really? And the way the Lifestream scene pays it all off is brilliant. But not everyone wants their expectations subverted, or to analyze FFVII like it's literature or film. They want escapism, a story with confident badass like Disc 1 Cloud, choices that matter, and a romance based on what they're already used to.

To be honest, all of that made me so happy that I don't interpret media through tropes, lmao.

You know, when I first played FF7 OG, I thought CA was canon. I'd read it online somewhere and I didn't really have a reason to doubt it. But then I got to the point where Aerith died and almost immediately I realised I'd been lied to, lol. I didn't even have to see all the CT moments. By the time I started FF7 OG, I'd already read/watched plenty of Japanese works and very, very rarely do these stories leave their MCs hopelessly pining after their love interest. The second male lead? Sure. Sometimes to a creepy degree.

The problem then is that of people are not delusional, but what they are is obstinate. They guessed one thing, and they are very sore about guessing wrong.

And the sad thing is that they'd rather keep being wrong years after the thing ended than just admit they were wrong and ship their ship like everybody else.


Also, a few random observations of Rebirth: the game mirrors Aerith and Tifa a lot. If you think about how the canon couples mirror each other, too, Nojima seems to like that. Interestingly, so far CT moments have happened under the starry sky or at night while CA moments have happened under fair skies, lol. It's kind of sad that the side quests only happen between Cloud and a party member. I get that it probably would've been too much work to have them all interact with each other during them buuuut I'm selfish, I wanted them all to have bond time, lol. Or at the very least, let them stay behind so we can see what they'd do outside of Cloud-sphere instead of them all hanging in the background not doing or reacting to anything, lol.

The streamer I've been watching did Aerith's Costa del Sol fake date quest first and right afterwards Tifa's gym quest. And honestly, the contrast between these two quests almost felt cruel.

With Aerith, Cloud was basically stonewalling her. For example, Aerith asked what kind of swimsuit he'd like and Cloud started blithering about preferring function over form like such a twerp. Like, you were supposed to compliment her and say what kind of swimsuit would suit her, lol. But it was absolutely hilarious how turned off Aerith was by his answer, lmao. And their alone time ended on such a sour note too, with Aerith calling the date DOA otherwise and Cloud calling her mean.

It's not that he doesn't like her and it would be false to say that. He obviously does like her. They had such a nice, cute moment at the beach right after Hojo and the clones. But oh my god, they just don't seem to click romantically. I mean, it makes sense since they're both in love with other characters (even if the other isn't necessarily aware of it and the other is in denial/trying to move on) and they're not supposed to click romantically, lol.

And then in Tifa's quest, Cloud was basically all "OMG! Tifa! Please tell me everything! I'd love to listen! Yeah, me too! " Not to mention all the laughs.

So that's that so far, lol.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Many people love and appreciate Aerith’s Costa Del Sol date and I've seen a number of streamers enjoy it too. Like the throwback line to the rooftop date which is something many Aerith quests do with Remake references. The bit with Cloud, Aerith and Red XIII. The NPCs talking about how they get on and the inspiration they are. The part with the chocobo ending with how Cloud says he's still "steering" was also funny.

Retroactively the fashion quest has become one of my favourites and watching other streamers enjoy it brought my attention back to it, I love how the fashion girls react after each part of the quest, and them coming up with their inspiration and outfits based on what Cloud and Aerith are doing, the feedback, etc, and the results in the end.

Cloud compliments/is moved by Aerith’s appearance at least three times (Remake, Ever Crisis, Gongaga quest) his swimsuit comments were just funny too.

Him calling Aerith mean and Aerith apologising? Balanced by the chocobo steering comment. Cloud and Aerith are allowed to have disagreements, they are communicating, they are allowed to learn and do better. It's normal for some of their scenes to have some friction/tension too and people enjoy that aspect as with CT.

Absence of a Sign also involves the stars.

I mean some of them weren't even CAs particularly the streamers and they still found Costa cute and funny and enjoyed the banter.

Costa with Aerith and Cloud is being shown at the concerts/orchestra during NPTK so if they aren't supposed to be romantic the PR department is again either playing shenanigans or doing a great job of showing what they are supposed to.

Tifa's quest is in part Cloud making up for their disagreement/"fall out" from the inn scenes. I can understand why people would prefer/like Tifa's quest better and I think it's good people take different things from different quests. It'd be boring if we all saw things the same way. Ultimately I think a lot of effort was put into the quests and I think they wanted people to enjoy them and feel good/positive about them overall.

 

[Hellenic]

In fact, 2000 Gil to be a hero is fanfic, dontcha know. No kidding, someone recently argued that Cloud entering into the promise of his own free will was "fanfiction level bullshit" so either people aren't reading or they're deliberately misreading what Nojima wrote.

There have been some people who do feel like ToTP feels like fanfiction territory with how it's written, like not necessarily even shippers really, but i'm not surprised they do weaponize it that way too.

They also seem to be claiming Cloud and Tifa's old water tower represents only the past, while Cloud and Aerith's Shiny new water tower represents the future.

You know the one built by Shinra that in-game is called fake instead of new. And where Cloud refuses to sit wherevAerith asks him to. And they talk about Tifa and how Aerith doesn't have that kind of connection. That water tower.

I never understand how people think the new tower scene in anyway correlates to the one between Cloud and Tifa. Both scenes have 2 very different things being conveyed to the player and in no way are they the same thing.

Also, but Maiden isn't "fanfiction level bullshit" despite not being written by Nojima. Not to mention the several things in it that Crisis Core contradicts. In fact, thinking Maiden has seniority in canon over Crisis Core is already laughable as it is.

Gotta stick to and use any and every possible material that has any pro Clerith possibilities mentioned, even if the same material also shoots it in the leg.

The same people that say that this refuse to believe that Cloud can move on after Aerith's death. People are just very selective.

Didn't you know? Only Aerith and Cloud are allowed to move on with each other, Cloud cannot move on from Aerith for whatever reason.

Basically, they ignore the context behind scenes if it doesn't fit their interpretation.

This. It's always this.

Because Maiden Tifa is only taking care of Maiden Cloud, i.e. keeping him company until he dies. Then his true afterlife romance begins after the story ends (this is clearly implied and only delusional haters would claim otherwise).

The last bit of copium they can have, but also at that point they might as well move onto their fanfics instead to get a depiction of their afterlife hookup .

Or is it that they just have clung to a specific passage in Maiden, and have completely blocked out the rest of it? Because then they can say Aerith loved Cloud more and CA is still possible...

That's exactly what they are doing. It's always a passage from somewhere where they conveniently leave out the bit that says otherwise.

Honestly, this makes both Aerith and Cloud out to be horrible people in that they will take advantage of another's feelings for them. But Zack is a horrible cheater because he once asked Cissnei out to dinner. It's okay for Cloud to kiss another woman out of jealousy... but fuck Zack for having peak rizz.

Why would they even enjoy their ship after if this is what the characters have to become for the ship to work? Why are they contradicting their dislike of Zack being a bit flirty with other women to Cloud who straight up kisses another one and it's somehow fine for them? I swear this shipping stuff is stupid.

The thing is, the people who downplay CT like to say that if SE can confirm chocobos getting it on, they could confirm CT too with a very special press release. But that argument applies to CA too? Like, where exactly in or outside the game has SE ever confirmed romantic feelings from Cloud to Aerith? As far as I know, nowhere? And you would think that if Cloud had fallen in love with Aerith that would, like, garner some kind of introspection post her death or post Lifestream?

Somehow Cloud and Aeriths eternal love is more confirmed than anything between Cloud and Tifa who have plenty of intimate moments and basically outright confirmations in all kinds of Ultmania pages.

You absolutely would, but they say that the bit at the end where Cloud is talking about what he and Tifa can do if they don't make it out of the crater alive is him declaring his eternal love for Aerith.

Oh yeah this is the so called "confirmation" that somehow is stronger than anything else with Tifa. Wonder if they actually will change this to basically kill of that interpration for the final game. It was a mistranslation right?

I don't read/watch a lot of harems but I've gathered from the ones I have read/watched is that the main character can waver without any feelings involved, lol. Usually because in harems the MC has the personality of a wet noodle, lol.

The kind of pushover losers who don't say no to any kind of advances. It's always pretty clear from the get go though which one the MC fancies or will obviously pick. I personally just can't get invested in these anymore couse there's essentially no actual competition ever.

The problem then is that of people are not delusional, but what they are is obstinate. They guessed one thing, and they are very sore about guessing wrong.

I don't know why it's so hard to admit if you were wrong about something. Though i guess it's too hard after over 20+ years believing otherwise i suppose.

It's kind of sad that the side quests only happen between Cloud and a party member. I get that it probably would've been too much work to have them all interact with each other during them buuuut I'm selfish, I wanted them all to have bond time, lol. Or at the very least, let them stay behind so we can see what they'd do outside of Cloud-sphere instead of them all hanging in the background not doing or reacting to anything, lol.

Here's to hoping we get more group quests in the third game. We did at least get the Protorelic stuff with more than 1 member at a time. Too bad Aerith is not getting anything more with Cid or Vincent at this point.

With Aerith, Cloud was basically stonewalling her. For example, Aerith asked what kind of swimsuit he'd like and Cloud started blithering about preferring function over form like such a twerp. Like, you were supposed to compliment her and say what kind of swimsuit would suit her, lol. But it was absolutely hilarious how turned off Aerith was by his answer, lmao. And their alone time ended on such a sour note too, with Aerith calling the date DOA otherwise and Cloud calling her mean.

It's not that he doesn't like her and it would be false to say that. He obviously does like her. They had such a nice, cute moment at the beach right after Hojo and the clones. But oh my god, they just don't seem to click romantically. I mean, it makes sense since they're both in love with other characters (even if the other isn't necessarily aware of it and the other is in denial/trying to move on) and they're not supposed to click romantically, lol.

And then in Tifa's quest, Cloud was basically all "OMG! Tifa! Please tell me everything! I'd love to listen! Yeah, me too! " Not to mention all the laughs.

The contrast is wild and i commented about it earlier too. Stuff like these quests are exactly why i just don't see romantic sparks between Cloud and Aerith. Like when you go out of your way to portray a lot of their scenes like this, it just doesn't oomph with romantic tension to me.

Cloud is at his best when he can be comfortable and not being forced into situations and it shows with the more endearing scenes he has with Aerith in basically all of the bonding moments they have, where Aerith opens up to him about things (like the Costa Del beach scene and Water Tower scene) versus the occasions where Aerith tries to drag him into something he's not enjoying. On the other hand, him and Tifa are almost always on the same wavelength and he gets to be more himself around her in basically all of their scenes.

Basically Aerith related things often feel like he's doing it for the job, but with Tifa they feel like they are having more fun along the way. I did like the Cosmo Aerith quest though and think that's peak as far as their relationship goes.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Many people love and appreciate Aerith’s Costa Del Sol date and I've seen a number of streamers enjoy it too. Like the throwback line to the rooftop date which is something many Aerith quests do with Remake references. The bit with Cloud, Aerith and Red XIII. The NPCs talking about how they get on and the inspiration they are. The part with the chocobo ending with how Cloud says he's still "steering" was also funny.

For me, it's like... It showed that Aerith has to do most of the "romantic effort" on the date, so to speak, and Cloud's not really humouring that. You can't even say that he's, like, romantically clueless because you can contrast his behaviour when he's with Tifa and with Tifa he has the water tower, the flower, the drink, the train tunnel roll, alone at last, etc. Which kind of shows that when Cloud wants to go for it romantically, he does.

Though, I have to say, the funniest part of their fake date was still when Cloud started blithering about functional swimsuits and Aerith was so totally turned off, lmao.

But I honestly felt so bad for Aerith when their alone time ended with her apologising. So it was nice that the quest still ended on an amicable note when they got back from collecting the shells. They get along a lot better when -- how to put this -- she doesn't try to fish romance out of their interactions?

But it's so totally false to say that Cloud doesn't like or care about Aerith because he obviously does. That's like a part of his character arc: "There's not a thing I don't cherish!" To show his contrast with Sephiroth who didn't even cherish his own memories. So I wish that certain parts of the fandom would stop confusing what they feel about Aerith with what Cloud feels about Aerith.

Stuff like these quests are exactly why i just don't see romantic sparks between Cloud and Aerith. Like when you go out of your way to portray a lot of their scenes like this, it just doesn't oomph with romantic tension to me.

Yeah, their more romantic moments are ironically when there's no romance to it? I mean, for me their fake date showed two things: they don't click romantically and Aerith has to do most of the "romantic effort" with Cloud while Cloud is either oblivious or just not humouring that. Ask Zack what kind of swimsuit he'd like and he'd probably say "Oh, you'd look really cute in X!"

I mean, it makes sense since they're not really supposed to click romantically but omg, Aerith apologising after they were done collecting the shells was still just... I felt so bad for her.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Honestly Cloud and Aerith time would be more boring to me if there weren't so much snerking back and forth between them.

Still I do get feeling bad/sorry for Aerith too, same happens with Tifa, I think you're supposed to emphasise/sympathise with the girls at times over Cloud. I know during some stream chats I've been in people have also called Cloud an a-hole or yelled at him for some of his responses to Tifa lol, feeling bad for her and not him.


I know with ToTP, and I've been meaning to touch on this for a while, that some think Tifa is going to be revealed as an " unreliable narrator" or something like with later scenes in the OG, I'm not sure/am confused as how this is supposed to nuke CT though. I mean some really believe they will stick with they weren't really that close and the truth was they didn't talk much or whatever but.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I know with ToTP, and I've been meaning to touch on this for a while, that some think Tifa is going to be revealed as an " unreliable narrator" or something like with later scenes in the OG, I'm not sure/am confused as how this is supposed to nuke CT though. I mean some really believe they will stick with they weren't really that close and the truth was they didn't talk much or whatever but.

Yeah, that's kind of silly since Cloud's an unreliable narrator too and an unreliable narrator doesn't mean irredeemable liar either? And haven't they already talked in the game about how they weren't that close as children but they still want to learn and know more about each other?

 

[Shadowstorm]

It's weird because we have things we already know Tifa is an unreliable narrator about, and it's her perception of Cloud as this cool guy that's content to be on his own. They have already adressed this in Rebirth.

What she's not unreliable about is her feelings for Cloud, what caused them, and the fact that they were friends as little kids. Hell, the last one is also directly refferenced in Rebirth? She mentions during the Fluffy quest she hasn't been in his house since she was 8, which makes pretty clear she used to come over, and Cloud didn't contradict her, so I don't know what they're expecting.

But also all of the scenes in ToTP of Tifa reflecting on her feelings for Cloud specifically don't follow the framing device of the rest of the novel where it's someone telling a story. Nojima was very careful to have those scenes be her reflecting back privately, so you can't really claim she's lying on purpose either even if you are on the "Tifa the liar" train.

 

[GamerSkull]

Tifa being an unreliable narrator is just copium. Even if she doesn’t remember the events clearly, her feelings being unreliable will never be true.

We know Tifa is keeping things from Cloud, and although she is wrong to do so it’s very clear that it’s not out of malicious intent but more because she’s worried about what telling Cloud the truth will do to him. Especially since she’s witnessed him lose his mind multiple times.

The twist in the story is that Cloud has been lying this whole time (not intentionally). He’s the unreliable narrator.

In regards to the Costa Del Sol dates, I think it’s perfectly valid to enjoy both for various reasons but I do think they were meant to showcase how Cloud reacts to Aerith and Tifa differently. Especially considering Aerith’s quest leads into Tifa’s quest since you meet Jules in it and he says to come by the gym.

Cloud has also openly flirted with Tifa more than Aerith. Like the drink scene in Remake. Or saying that’s she “pretty light”. Or going so far as to reveal that he remembers the exact dress she wore during the promise. Most people actually might not remember something like that if it wasn’t a special memory for them. The fact that Cloud can, means the event is something he remembers often.

 

[Hellenic]

They get along a lot better when -- how to put this -- she doesn't try to fish romance out of their interactions?

Yeah, their more romantic moments are ironically when there's no romance to it? I mean, for me their fake date showed two things: they don't click romantically and Aerith has to do most of the "romantic effort" with Cloud while Cloud is either oblivious or just not humouring that. Ask Zack what kind of swimsuit he'd like and he'd probably say "Oh, you'd look really cute in X!"

This is basically how i feel about it and you put it well into words. The fact that Aerith has to put all the romantic effort in is just not appealing to me at all and like you said, they feel more romantic when it's not actually about romance and those are easily the best moments they have together.

Honestly Cloud and Aerith time would be more boring to me if there weren't so much snerking back and forth between them.

That's a fair reasoning for liking that dynamic more. Not for me personally but i do see where you're coming from.

I know with ToTP, and I've been meaning to touch on this for a while, that some think Tifa is going to be revealed as an " unreliable narrator" or something like with later scenes in the OG, I'm not sure/am confused as how this is supposed to nuke CT though. I mean some really believe they will stick with they weren't really that close and the truth was they didn't talk much or whatever but.

From what i've seen, the people throwing the "unreliable narrator" stuff about her are mostly the more extremes on that side that want any kind of reason to make Tifa out to be a bad guy frankly. People have been going against The Nibelheim conversation where she says that they did hang out more at one point but then stopped hanging out for some reason and are calling Tifa a liar there for saying that they were ever closer before, thuss "an unreliable narrator" where you supposedly can't trust her words on it, which obviously is not the case. Might be a byproduct idea born from the mistranslated OG lines that said Tifa excluded Cloud from the group.

Yeah, that's kind of silly since Cloud's an unreliable narrator too and an unreliable narrator doesn't mean irredeemable liar either? And haven't they already talked in the game about how they weren't that close as children but they still want to learn and know more about each other?

It's weird because we have things we already know Tifa is an unreliable narrator about, and it's her perception of Cloud as this cool guy that's content to be on his own. They have already adressed this in Rebirth.

The Nibelheim bond conversation yeah. There's a fun little followup if you speak to her again after it .

Cloud has also openly flirted with Tifa more than Aerith. Like the drink scene in Remake. Or saying that’s she “pretty light”. Or going so far as to reveal that he remembers the exact dress she wore during the promise. Most people actually might not remember something like that if it wasn’t a special memory for them. The fact that Cloud can, means the event is something he remembers often.

All this stuff just makes it extremely clear where his desires lie and it's wild that some people don't see it. I suppose there are those that just call it carnal desire on Clouds ends and nothing more .

 

[Ryeleigh]

Honestly Cloud and Aerith time would be more boring to me if there weren't so much snerking back and forth between them.

I liked it the most on the rooftops in Remake because Cloud was actually laughing along.

This is basically how i feel about it and you put it well into words. The fact that Aerith has to put all the romantic effort in is just not appealing to me at all and like you said, they feel more romantic when it's not actually about romance and those are easily the best moments they have together.

Yeah, I think things like chemistry and romance need mutuality to work effectively. I mean... obviously, lol.

 

[Rin]

Still I do get feeling bad/sorry for Aerith too, same happens with Tifa, I think you're supposed to emphasise/sympathise with the girls at times over Cloud. I know during some stream chats I've been in people have also called Cloud an a-hole or yelled at him for some of his responses to Tifa lol, feeling bad for her and not him.

What a lot of people (aka Cloud stans) dont understand is that the game is showing you how flawed of a person he is. You're not supposed to be on his side when he chooses to be rude to Aerith, shut Tifa out/question her existence, callously brush Yuffie's trauma off, insult Zack, etc. Like these are not things that we're supposed to be cheering for.

And so I've never quite understood why people get mad if someone says, "Ugh I feel really bad for Tifa/Aerith here, Cloud's a dick." It's like they hyperfocus on ships and assume that because we feel bad for the girl we're saying they're not a good match or we don't support the ship.

There are times (a lot of times!) I feel awful for Tifa in regards to Clouds behaviour.... because I'm SUPPOSED to feel bad. I'm not gonna go out of my way to defend those interactions between them bc I like them as a couple. If Cloud is being an asshole, he's being an asshole. It doesn't matter which character is currently facing his ire. And if people can't admit when Cloud is being an asshole to their fave because they wanna defend their ship.... that's a huge problem imo. Because how can you even identify and enjoy his character growth if you can't admit when he's being an ass to the girl you ship him with?

 

[GamerSkull]

I suppose there are those that just call it carnal desire on Clouds ends and nothing more .

If we really want to get down to it, romantic and carnal desire are two sides of the same coin. It’s the same chemicals being shot into our brain that forms attraction. The reason it happens is because we are all biologically wired to procreate.

Cloud thinking Wall Market Aerith is pretty and being flustered with Beachwear Tifa are both linked to sexual attraction. People need to understand that having romantic interest in someone is almost always accompanied by sexual desire.

I gotta say this is honestly weird. Do they not want Cloud to have sexual desire for Aerith? Should the two be in some sort of chaste relationship?

The answer is it’s just a convenient cope. They can pretend Cloud’s interest in Aerith is wholesome and his interest in Tifa is not. It’s incredibly dumb. It’s the same thing when it comes to the kiss. They have to recontextualize it as non-romantic but obviously a kiss is kind of hard to do that with so then their next option is for Cloud to be a douchebag.

There are times (a lot of times!) I feel awful for Tifa in regards to Clouds behaviour.... because I'm SUPPOSED to feel bad. I'm not gonna go out of my way to defend those interactions between them bc I like them as a couple. If Cloud is being an asshole, he's being an asshole. It doesn't matter which character is currently facing his ire. And if people can't admit when Cloud is being an asshole to their fave because they wanna defend their ship.... that's a huge problem imo. Because how can you even identify and enjoy his character growth if you can't admit when he's being an ass to the girl you ship him with?

Yeah, just like we’re actually supposed to be on Tifa’s side atop the rooftop at Kalm. Sure, Cloud has some extenuating circumstances but he is still accountable for things he says. (Yes, I know some people think Tifa is the one in the wrong here but I don’t think they actually understand the scene).

Or when he says he’s not interested in talking about Emilio. He said the wrong stuff here too.

I think Cloud is great, but certain fans thinking his circumstances vindicate him from some of the stuff he says is just lame.

Same for Advent Children, we’re not supposed to root for him as a deadbeat. And we’re supposed to be happy when he finally breaks out of his funk.

 

[Rin]

If we really want to get down to it, romantic and carnal desire are two sides of the same coin. It’s the same chemicals being shot into our brain that forms attraction. The reason it happens is because we are all biologically wired to procreate.

Cloud thinking Wall Market Aerith is pretty and being flustered with Beachwear Tifa are both linked to sexual attraction. People need to understand that having romantic interest in someone is almost always accompanied by sexual desire.

I gotta say this is honestly weird. Do they not want Cloud to have sexual desire for Aerith? Should the two be in some sort of chaste relationship?

The answer is it’s just a convenient cope. They can pretend Cloud’s interest in Aerith is wholesome and his interest in Tifa is not. It’s incredibly dumb. It’s the same thing when it comes to the kiss. They have to recontextualize it as non-romantic but obviously a kiss is kind of hard to do that with so then their next option is for Cloud to be a douchebag.


Yeah, just like we’re actually supposed to be on Tifa’s side atop the rooftop at Kalm. Sure, Cloud has some extenuating circumstances but he is still accountable for things he says. (Yes, I know some people think Tifa is the one in the wrong here but I don’t think they actually understand the scene).

Or when he says he’s not interested in talking about Emilio. He said the wrong stuff here too.

I think Cloud is great, but certain fans thinking his circumstances vindicate him from some of the stuff he says is just lame.

Same for Advent Children, we’re not supposed to root for him as a deadbeat. And we’re supposed to be happy when he finally breaks out of his funk.

Exactly! I've said it so many times but I'm sick of the fandom woobifying him. He doesn't need to be defended or protected. Yes, he has his reasons for doing certain things and acting a certain way but that doesn't mean he's justified in doing so. And the narrative never justifies it, so it's unnecessary for Cloud stans to go out of their way and excuse every single thing he does. It drives me mad lol!

 

[pxl_pushr]

Exactly! I've said it so many times but I'm sick of the fandom woobifying him. He doesn't need to be defended or protected. Yes, he has his reasons for doing certain things and acting a certain way but that doesn't mean he's justified in doing so. And the narrative never justifies it, so it's unnecessary for Cloud stans to go out of their way and excuse every single thing he does. It drives me mad lol!

Because Cloud’s ultimate issue is thinking he’s better off presenting this fragment of a person instead of owning up to the truth of himself, his failures, and his flaws.

But isn’t that the very root of Aerith and Tifa’s confusion? Aerith, who sees shades of Zack in Cloud, is confused because Cloud lacks the personality she fell in love with. Similarly, Tifa sees real Cloud mixed into their interactions, but it vanishes when Cloud further sinks into his SOLDIER act.

It’s similar to people’s negative thoughts around method actors. They “immerse themselves in the role”, but unlike the real deal, they don’t know when to turn it off and just be normal.

That’s why the mechanics behind Cloud’s persona is so important: yes, Jenova plays a role in making all this possible, but it is not driving the ship with both hands (tentacles?). Like a master manipulator, Jenova just gives real Cloud the means to maintain his little mindpalace and softly nudges him along the reunion trail.

He’s very much a bot outside of interactions involving Tifa, speedrunning 101 courses on “how to person” outside of the surface-level understanding of how a SOLDIER is supposed to act, or better yet, how Zack with Sephiroth’s calm cool personality would act. He doesn’t understand that people would be offput by that type of person.

 

[Sacky]

If we really want to get down to it, romantic and carnal desire are two sides of the same coin. It’s the same chemicals being shot into our brain that forms attraction. The reason it happens is because we are all biologically wired to procreate.

Cloud thinking Wall Market Aerith is pretty and being flustered with Beachwear Tifa are both linked to sexual attraction. People need to understand that having romantic interest in someone is almost always accompanied by sexual desire.

I gotta say this is honestly weird. Do they not want Cloud to have sexual desire for Aerith? Should the two be in some sort of chaste relationship?

The answer is it’s just a convenient cope. They can pretend Cloud’s interest in Aerith is wholesome and his interest in Tifa is not. It’s incredibly dumb. It’s the same thing when it comes to the kiss. They have to recontextualize it as non-romantic but obviously a kiss is kind of hard to do that with so then their next option is for Cloud to be a douchebag.


Yeah, just like we’re actually supposed to be on Tifa’s side atop the rooftop at Kalm. Sure, Cloud has some extenuating circumstances but he is still accountable for things he says. (Yes, I know some people think Tifa is the one in the wrong here but I don’t think they actually understand the scene).

Or when he says he’s not interested in talking about Emilio. He said the wrong stuff here too.

I think Cloud is great, but certain fans thinking his circumstances vindicate him from some of the stuff he says is just lame.

Same for Advent Children, we’re not supposed to root for him as a deadbeat. And we’re supposed to be happy when he finally breaks out of his funk.

People baby Cloud too much and think as a kid he was bullied all the time when he was the one fighting

 

[Ryeleigh]

What a lot of people (aka Cloud stans) dont understand is that the game is showing you how flawed of a person he is. You're not supposed to be on his side when he chooses to be rude to Aerith, shut Tifa out/question her existence, callously brush Yuffie's trauma off, insult Zack, etc. Like these are not things that we're supposed to be cheering for.

And so I've never quite understood why people get mad if someone says, "Ugh I feel really bad for Tifa/Aerith here, Cloud's a dick." It's like they hyperfocus on ships and assume that because we feel bad for the girl we're saying they're not a good match or we don't support the ship.

There are times (a lot of times!) I feel awful for Tifa in regards to Clouds behaviour.... because I'm SUPPOSED to feel bad. I'm not gonna go out of my way to defend those interactions between them bc I like them as a couple. If Cloud is being an asshole, he's being an asshole. It doesn't matter which character is currently facing his ire. And if people can't admit when Cloud is being an asshole to their fave because they wanna defend their ship.... that's a huge problem imo. Because how can you even identify and enjoy his character growth if you can't admit when he's being an ass to the girl you ship him with?

Yeah, it's kind of amazing that the girls get raked over hot coals and called every horrible thing for their flaws but say one (valid) criticism of Cloud and suddenly everyone's all, "Oh but he's a poor baby, you just don't understand." I mean, how many people still like to bring up Aerith's insensitive comment to Barret in the OG but Cloud being a jerk is either just "tee hee hee, that's so Cloud" or "he has an alien and Sephiroth messing around in his head! He can't help it!"?

But denying Cloud the consequences of his behaviour is denying his agency and if people deny his agency is he really any better than a puppet?

Yeah, just like we’re actually supposed to be on Tifa’s side atop the rooftop at Kalm. Sure, Cloud has some extenuating circumstances but he is still accountable for things he says. (Yes, I know some people think Tifa is the one in the wrong here but I don’t think they actually understand the scene).

I think it's still amazing that Tifa didn't just deck him right there and then, lmao.

Exactly! I've said it so many times but I'm sick of the fandom woobifying him. He doesn't need to be defended or protected. Yes, he has his reasons for doing certain things and acting a certain way but that doesn't mean he's justified in doing so. And the narrative never justifies it, so it's unnecessary for Cloud stans to go out of their way and excuse every single thing he does. It drives me mad lol!

I always say that explanations aren't excuses. So does the explanation excuse the actual behaviour or is the behaviour still bad regardless of the explanation?

Besides, I saw the ACC Cloud discourse on twitter too. And most people who criticised his character didn't even say that he's horrible and should die in a ditch. Most of them seemed to wish for a better resolution to his behaviour and that the film had focused more on Tifa since she's also going through a hard time. And instead, the discourse went right back to excusing and woobifying Cloud, lmao.

 

[Rin]

Yeah, it's kind of amazing that the girls get raked over hot coals and called every horrible thing for their flaws but say one (valid) criticism of Cloud and suddenly everyone's all, "Oh but he's a poor baby, you just don't understand." I mean, how many people still like to bring up Aerith's insensitive comment to Barret in the OG but Cloud being a jerk is either just "tee hee hee, that's so Cloud" or "he has an alien and Sephiroth messing around in his head! He can't help it!"?

But denying Cloud the consequences of his behaviour is denying his agency and if people deny his agency is he really any better than a puppet?


I think it's still amazing that Tifa didn't just deck him right there and then, lmao.


I always say that explanations aren't excuses. So does the explanation excuse the actual behaviour or is the behaviour still bad regardless of the explanation?

Besides, I saw the ACC Cloud discourse on twitter too. And most people who criticised his character didn't even say that he's horrible and should die in a ditch. Most of them seemed to wish for a better resolution to his behaviour and that the film had focused more on Tifa since she's also going through a hard time. And instead, the discourse went right back to excusing and woobifying Cloud, lmao.

YES TO EVERYTHING.

The twitter discourse, which I was apart of bc I'll stand ten toes down on criticizing Cloud (AND BARRET) in CoT and ACC, drove me insane because everyone missed the point. I know why Cloud left. I know why he shut Tifa out. I know that he thought he was doing what was was best. None of this changes the fact that he deeply hurt his family. Marlene, especially, is upset with him and she's only six. We're not SUPPOSED to be defending him! We're supposed to be cheering when he gets his ass back up and fights.

And it's so tiring to watch Tifa and Aerith get ripped apart for one mistake or saying one thing that made Cloud uncomfortable. Like who cares? Cloud makes other people uncomfortable all the time! Cloud is insensitive all the time! Stop writing thinkpieces on how Aerith was soooo inconsiderate and insensitive because she said his house looks cozy. That's not even half as bad as Cloud telling Yuffie to think about how much she's done for him and his friends when she's rightfully upset that she couldn't help the slaughtered Wutai soldiers in the Nibelheim reactor.

 

[pxl_pushr]

YES TO EVERYTHING.

The twitter discourse, which I was apart of bc I'll stand ten toes down on criticizing Cloud (AND BARRET) in CoT and ACC, drove me insane because everyone missed the point. I know why Cloud left. I know why he shut Tifa out. I know that he thought he was doing what was was best. None of this changes the fact that he deeply hurt his family. Marlene, especially, is upset with him and she's only six. We're not SUPPOSED to be defending him! We're supposed to be cheering when he gets his ass back up and fights.

And it's so tiring to watch Tifa and Aerith get ripped apart for one mistake or saying one thing that made Cloud uncomfortable. Like who cares? Cloud makes other people uncomfortable all the time! Cloud is insensitive all the time! Stop writing thinkpieces on how Aerith was soooo inconsiderate and insensitive because she said his house looks cozy. That's not even half as bad as Cloud telling Yuffie to think about how much she's done for him and his friends when she's rightfully upset that she couldn't help the slaughtered Wutai soldiers in the Nibelheim reactor.

At the end of the day, Aerith AND CLOUD have very little normal social experience leading to a level of unintelligence, even if I’d easily say Aerith has way more social grace than SOLDIER Cloud especially.

ACC discourse will always get a very simple, “it’s not a very well executed film” from me and that’s about it. Creative execution needed polishing, business/marketing needed to get more of its nose out of it, and sometimes it’s best to trim and dig into your conflicts vs stacking on more.

 

[Ryeleigh]

YES TO EVERYTHING.

The twitter discourse, which I was apart of bc I'll stand ten toes down on criticizing Cloud (AND BARRET) in CoT and ACC, drove me insane because everyone missed the point. I know why Cloud left. I know why he shut Tifa out. I know that he thought he was doing what was was best. None of this changes the fact that he deeply hurt his family. Marlene, especially, is upset with him and she's only six. We're not SUPPOSED to be defending him! We're supposed to be cheering when he gets his ass back up and fights.

And it's so tiring to watch Tifa and Aerith get ripped apart for one mistake or saying one thing that made Cloud uncomfortable. Like who cares? Cloud makes other people uncomfortable all the time! Cloud is insensitive all the time! Stop writing thinkpieces on how Aerith was soooo inconsiderate and insensitive because she said his house looks cozy. That's not even half as bad as Cloud telling Yuffie to think about how much she's done for him and his friends when she's rightfully upset that she couldn't help the slaughtered Wutai soldiers in the Nibelheim reactor.

The thing is, one of the more interesting aspects of fiction is perspective. How the story frames events and behaviours. For example, write a story from the perspective of a couple of criminals and most of the audience will sympathise with them instead of their nameless, faceless victims. And the reason why the victims are nameless and faceless is precisely because the story and the writers don't want you to care.

FF7 is from Cloud's perspective so obviously the audience sympathises with him the most. They're supposed to. And considering that ACC, for example, isn't from Tifa's perspective as she struggles with Cloud's absence and the reasons for it, her grief and her accountability with that grief, and taking care of two kids (which, let's be real, were kind of dumped on her by the men in her life) and a business, it makes sense that the audience doesn't really consider those things either. So instead, it's all excusing and woobifying Cloud.

But the other thing is, the story already does that. Which is why it's mostly from Cloud's perspective. So the audience doesn't need to do it too. And saying that Cloud and ACC could have been written better really isn't the same as condemning him to die alone in a ditch, lol.

I mean, an extreme example but Sephiroth's behaviour has explanations too. That's why he's a compelling character. But his explanations certainly don't excuse his actions.

If any of that made sense, lmao.

 

[pxl_pushr]

The thing is, one of the more interesting aspects of fiction is perspective. How the story frames events and behaviours. For example, write a story from the perspective of a couple of criminals and most of the audience will sympathise with them instead of their nameless, faceless victims. And the reason why the victims are nameless and faceless is precisely because the story and the writers don't want you to care.

FF7 is from Cloud's perspective so obviously the audience sympathises with him the most. They're supposed to. And considering that ACC, for example, isn't from Tifa's perspective as she struggles with Cloud's absence and the reasons for it, her grief and her accountability with that grief, and taking care of two kids (which, let's be real, were kind of dumped on her by the men in her life) and a business, it makes sense that the audience doesn't really consider those things either. So instead, it's all excusing and woobifying Cloud.

But the other thing is, the story already does that. Which is why it's mostly from Cloud's perspective. So the audience doesn't need to do it too. And saying that Cloud and ACC could have been written better really isn't the same as condemning him to die alone in a ditch, lol.

I mean, an extreme example but Sephiroth's behaviour has explanations too. That's why he's a compelling character. But his explanations certainly don't excuse his actions.

If any of that made sense, lmao.

Godzilla Minus One managed to tell ACC’s emotional arc quite well in a monster movie, so ACC doesn’t get much excuses from me lol

You don’t need much, but you do need pinpoint accuracy in your scenes between people.

 

[Rin]

The thing is, one of the more interesting aspects of fiction is perspective. How the story frames events and behaviours. For example, write a story from the perspective of a couple of criminals and most of the audience will sympathise with them instead of their nameless, faceless victims. And the reason why the victims are nameless and faceless is precisely because the story and the writers don't want you to care.

FF7 is from Cloud's perspective so obviously the audience sympathises with him the most. They're supposed to. And considering that ACC, for example, isn't from Tifa's perspective as she struggles with Cloud's absence and the reasons for it, her grief and her accountability with that grief, and taking care of two kids (which, let's be real, were kind of dumped on her by the men in her life) and a business, it makes sense that the audience doesn't really consider those things either. So instead, it's all excusing and woobifying Cloud.

But the other thing is, the story already does that. Which is why it's mostly from Cloud's perspective. So the audience doesn't need to do it too. And saying that Cloud and ACC could have been written better really isn't the same as condemning him to die alone in a ditch, lol.

I mean, an extreme example but Sephiroth's behaviour has explanations too. That's why he's a compelling character. But his explanations certainly don't excuse his actions.

If any of that made sense, lmao.

Absolutely and I wholeheartedly agree w/ you.

The issue with OTWTAS and ACC, as many people have pointed out before me, is that it's basically a redo of Cloud's arc in condensed format w/ bad execution. While there's nothing wrong with Cloud having to re-learn that he's not alone/doesn't have to do everything alone, it does trample on a lot of his already established relationships. It almost feels like, "woops, we kinda forgot to show Cloud grieving and feeling sad/guilty in OG so... here he is doing that now!"

And my complaints are never that Cloud sucks, but rather that the writing sucks and it fails a lot of these characters. I had completely forced myself to forget the scene in CoT where Barret tells Tifa he's going on a journey to settle his past and when she says she wants to do that too, he tells her she needs to stay home and raise Marlene. It's basically like "No, you settle your past by being a mother to MY child, thanks." And that's so OOC for Barret now. Just like Cloud knowing about Barret wanting to leave and not sticking up for Tifa's right to be involved in this decision is OOC for him now too.

A lot of the behaviour that sets up ACC doesn't even make sense for these characters anymore, and in fact Nojima has gone out of his way to undercut his own writing for ACC--which is very interesting. In ToTP, Tifa is adamant about the fact that she will allow no one to decide what her life will be or what it will look like yet in CoT, Barret and Cloud do just that. And this makes me sad, because if all of that stays canon that's so damn tragic for her character.

 

[Ryeleigh]

A lot of the behaviour that sets up ACC doesn't even make sense for these characters anymore, and in fact Nojima has gone out of his way to undercut his own writing for ACC--which is very interesting. In ToTP, Tifa is adamant about the fact that she will allow no one to decide what her life will be or what it will look like yet in CoT, Barret and Cloud do just that. And this makes me sad, because if all of that stays canon that's so damn tragic for her character.

Yeah, I mean, in Rebirth Cloud opens up to Tifa about his identity problems and his fear of cellular degradation -- mind, after attacking her in the midst of a Sephiroth-induced breakdown -- but supposedly a couple of years down the line, he isn't going to do the same in ACC, lol? Like, that wouldn't even be character regression anymore. That'd be, I don't even know, a retcon?

I always saw the chronology of Re-trilogy as CC - OG - ACC - DOC - RT because it would let them keep all the previous entries without replacing anything or necessarily contradicting anything previous? But well, who knows. The devs keep saying that Re-trilogy is the same as the OG even though it's already different from the OG.

 

[Rin]

Yeah, I mean, in Rebirth Cloud opens up to Tifa about his identity problems and his fear of cellular degradation -- mind, after attacking her in the midst of a Sephiroth-induced breakdown -- but supposedly a couple of years down the line, he isn't going to do the same in ACC, lol? Like, that wouldn't even be character regression anymore. That'd be, I don't even know, a retcon?

I always saw the chronology of Re-trilogy as CC - OG - ACC - DOC - RT because it would let them keep all the previous entries without replacing anything or necessarily contradicting anything previous? But well, who knows. The devs keep saying that Re-trilogy is the same as the OG even though it's already different from the OG.

Right? It drives me nuts lol and I bet it drives Nojima nuts too.

As for chronology.... I had the same thought but since the devs claim RT is the same as OG maybe it'll be more like...

CC - OG - ACC - DOC
↳ - RT - ???

 

[Ryeleigh]

As for chronology.... I had the same thought but since the devs claim RT is the same as OG maybe it'll be more like...

CC - OG - ACC - DOC
↳ - RT - ???

Oh, you put the chronology a lot better than me. XD But yeah, something like that. I guess we'll all see definitely in Part 3. I mean, I don't think they're lying? But I also don't think they'd reveal massive story spoilers in an interview?

I still have my fingers crossed for a happy ending. Don't judge me, lol. Dump Sephiroth(s) in one of the dying worlds and bring Aerith and Zack back to the prime world so they can travel the planet together. They can drive Cloud and Tifa nuts with their shenanigans, lol.

 

[Rin]

I still have my fingers crossed for a happy ending. Don't judge me, lol. Dump Sephiroth(s) in one of the dying worlds and bring Aerith and Zack back to the prime world so they can travel the planet together. They can drive Cloud and Tifa nuts with their shenanigans, lol.

You and I are on the same wavelength there, my friend. CHEERS!!