SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Shadowstorm

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Yen
It's weird because we have things we already know Tifa is an unreliable narrator about, and it's her perception of Cloud as this cool guy that's content to be on his own. They have already adressed this in Rebirth.

What she's not unreliable about is her feelings for Cloud, what caused them, and the fact that they were friends as little kids. Hell, the last one is also directly refferenced in Rebirth? She mentions during the Fluffy quest she hasn't been in his house since she was 8, which makes pretty clear she used to come over, and Cloud didn't contradict her, so I don't know what they're expecting.

But also all of the scenes in ToTP of Tifa reflecting on her feelings for Cloud specifically don't follow the framing device of the rest of the novel where it's someone telling a story. Nojima was very careful to have those scenes be her reflecting back privately, so you can't really claim she's lying on purpose either even if you are on the "Tifa the liar" train.
 
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GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Tifa being an unreliable narrator is just copium. Even if she doesn’t remember the events clearly, her feelings being unreliable will never be true.

We know Tifa is keeping things from Cloud, and although she is wrong to do so it’s very clear that it’s not out of malicious intent but more because she’s worried about what telling Cloud the truth will do to him. Especially since she’s witnessed him lose his mind multiple times.

The twist in the story is that Cloud has been lying this whole time (not intentionally). He’s the unreliable narrator.

In regards to the Costa Del Sol dates, I think it’s perfectly valid to enjoy both for various reasons but I do think they were meant to showcase how Cloud reacts to Aerith and Tifa differently. Especially considering Aerith’s quest leads into Tifa’s quest since you meet Jules in it and he says to come by the gym.

Cloud has also openly flirted with Tifa more than Aerith. Like the drink scene in Remake. Or saying that’s she “pretty light”. Or going so far as to reveal that he remembers the exact dress she wore during the promise. Most people actually might not remember something like that if it wasn’t a special memory for them. The fact that Cloud can, means the event is something he remembers often.
 
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Hellenic

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Hellenic
They get along a lot better when -- how to put this -- she doesn't try to fish romance out of their interactions?
Yeah, their more romantic moments are ironically when there's no romance to it? I mean, for me their fake date showed two things: they don't click romantically and Aerith has to do most of the "romantic effort" with Cloud while Cloud is either oblivious or just not humouring that. Ask Zack what kind of swimsuit he'd like and he'd probably say "Oh, you'd look really cute in X!"
This is basically how i feel about it and you put it well into words. The fact that Aerith has to put all the romantic effort in is just not appealing to me at all and like you said, they feel more romantic when it's not actually about romance and those are easily the best moments they have together.
Honestly Cloud and Aerith time would be more boring to me if there weren't so much snerking back and forth between them.
That's a fair reasoning for liking that dynamic more. Not for me personally but i do see where you're coming from.
I know with ToTP, and I've been meaning to touch on this for a while, that some think Tifa is going to be revealed as an " unreliable narrator" or something like with later scenes in the OG, I'm not sure/am confused as how this is supposed to nuke CT though. I mean some really believe they will stick with they weren't really that close and the truth was they didn't talk much or whatever but.
From what i've seen, the people throwing the "unreliable narrator" stuff about her are mostly the more extremes on that side that want any kind of reason to make Tifa out to be a bad guy frankly. People have been going against The Nibelheim conversation where she says that they did hang out more at one point but then stopped hanging out for some reason and are calling Tifa a liar there for saying that they were ever closer before, thuss "an unreliable narrator" where you supposedly can't trust her words on it, which obviously is not the case. Might be a byproduct idea born from the mistranslated OG lines that said Tifa excluded Cloud from the group.
Yeah, that's kind of silly since Cloud's an unreliable narrator too and an unreliable narrator doesn't mean irredeemable liar either? And haven't they already talked in the game about how they weren't that close as children but they still want to learn and know more about each other?
It's weird because we have things we already know Tifa is an unreliable narrator about, and it's her perception of Cloud as this cool guy that's content to be on his own. They have already adressed this in Rebirth.
The Nibelheim bond conversation yeah. There's a fun little followup if you speak to her again after it ;).
Cloud has also openly flirted with Tifa more than Aerith. Like the drink scene in Remake. Or saying that’s she “pretty light”. Or going so far as to reveal that he remembers the exact dress she wore during the promise. Most people actually might not remember something like that if it wasn’t a special memory for them. The fact that Cloud can, means the event is something he remembers often.
All this stuff just makes it extremely clear where his desires lie and it's wild that some people don't see it. I suppose there are those that just call it carnal desire on Clouds ends and nothing more :desu:.
 

Ryeleigh

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Rye
Honestly Cloud and Aerith time would be more boring to me if there weren't so much snerking back and forth between them.
I liked it the most on the rooftops in Remake because Cloud was actually laughing along.

This is basically how i feel about it and you put it well into words. The fact that Aerith has to put all the romantic effort in is just not appealing to me at all and like you said, they feel more romantic when it's not actually about romance and those are easily the best moments they have together.
Yeah, I think things like chemistry and romance need mutuality to work effectively. I mean... obviously, lol.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
Still I do get feeling bad/sorry for Aerith too, same happens with Tifa, I think you're supposed to emphasise/sympathise with the girls at times over Cloud. I know during some stream chats I've been in people have also called Cloud an a-hole or yelled at him for some of his responses to Tifa lol, feeling bad for her and not him.
What a lot of people (aka Cloud stans) dont understand is that the game is showing you how flawed of a person he is. You're not supposed to be on his side when he chooses to be rude to Aerith, shut Tifa out/question her existence, callously brush Yuffie's trauma off, insult Zack, etc. Like these are not things that we're supposed to be cheering for.

And so I've never quite understood why people get mad if someone says, "Ugh I feel really bad for Tifa/Aerith here, Cloud's a dick." It's like they hyperfocus on ships and assume that because we feel bad for the girl we're saying they're not a good match or we don't support the ship.

There are times (a lot of times!) I feel awful for Tifa in regards to Clouds behaviour.... because I'm SUPPOSED to feel bad. I'm not gonna go out of my way to defend those interactions between them bc I like them as a couple. If Cloud is being an asshole, he's being an asshole. It doesn't matter which character is currently facing his ire. And if people can't admit when Cloud is being an asshole to their fave because they wanna defend their ship.... that's a huge problem imo. Because how can you even identify and enjoy his character growth if you can't admit when he's being an ass to the girl you ship him with?
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I suppose there are those that just call it carnal desire on Clouds ends and nothing more :desu:.
If we really want to get down to it, romantic and carnal desire are two sides of the same coin. It’s the same chemicals being shot into our brain that forms attraction. The reason it happens is because we are all biologically wired to procreate.

Cloud thinking Wall Market Aerith is pretty and being flustered with Beachwear Tifa are both linked to sexual attraction. People need to understand that having romantic interest in someone is almost always accompanied by sexual desire.

I gotta say this is honestly weird. Do they not want Cloud to have sexual desire for Aerith? Should the two be in some sort of chaste relationship?

The answer is it’s just a convenient cope. They can pretend Cloud’s interest in Aerith is wholesome and his interest in Tifa is not. It’s incredibly dumb. It’s the same thing when it comes to the kiss. They have to recontextualize it as non-romantic but obviously a kiss is kind of hard to do that with so then their next option is for Cloud to be a douchebag.

There are times (a lot of times!) I feel awful for Tifa in regards to Clouds behaviour.... because I'm SUPPOSED to feel bad. I'm not gonna go out of my way to defend those interactions between them bc I like them as a couple. If Cloud is being an asshole, he's being an asshole. It doesn't matter which character is currently facing his ire. And if people can't admit when Cloud is being an asshole to their fave because they wanna defend their ship.... that's a huge problem imo. Because how can you even identify and enjoy his character growth if you can't admit when he's being an ass to the girl you ship him with?
Yeah, just like we’re actually supposed to be on Tifa’s side atop the rooftop at Kalm. Sure, Cloud has some extenuating circumstances but he is still accountable for things he says. (Yes, I know some people think Tifa is the one in the wrong here but I don’t think they actually understand the scene).

Or when he says he’s not interested in talking about Emilio. He said the wrong stuff here too.

I think Cloud is great, but certain fans thinking his circumstances vindicate him from some of the stuff he says is just lame.

Same for Advent Children, we’re not supposed to root for him as a deadbeat. And we’re supposed to be happy when he finally breaks out of his funk.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
If we really want to get down to it, romantic and carnal desire are two sides of the same coin. It’s the same chemicals being shot into our brain that forms attraction. The reason it happens is because we are all biologically wired to procreate.

Cloud thinking Wall Market Aerith is pretty and being flustered with Beachwear Tifa are both linked to sexual attraction. People need to understand that having romantic interest in someone is almost always accompanied by sexual desire.

I gotta say this is honestly weird. Do they not want Cloud to have sexual desire for Aerith? Should the two be in some sort of chaste relationship?

The answer is it’s just a convenient cope. They can pretend Cloud’s interest in Aerith is wholesome and his interest in Tifa is not. It’s incredibly dumb. It’s the same thing when it comes to the kiss. They have to recontextualize it as non-romantic but obviously a kiss is kind of hard to do that with so then their next option is for Cloud to be a douchebag.


Yeah, just like we’re actually supposed to be on Tifa’s side atop the rooftop at Kalm. Sure, Cloud has some extenuating circumstances but he is still accountable for things he says. (Yes, I know some people think Tifa is the one in the wrong here but I don’t think they actually understand the scene).

Or when he says he’s not interested in talking about Emilio. He said the wrong stuff here too.

I think Cloud is great, but certain fans thinking his circumstances vindicate him from some of the stuff he says is just lame.

Same for Advent Children, we’re not supposed to root for him as a deadbeat. And we’re supposed to be happy when he finally breaks out of his funk.
Exactly! I've said it so many times but I'm sick of the fandom woobifying him. He doesn't need to be defended or protected. Yes, he has his reasons for doing certain things and acting a certain way but that doesn't mean he's justified in doing so. And the narrative never justifies it, so it's unnecessary for Cloud stans to go out of their way and excuse every single thing he does. It drives me mad lol!
 

pxl_pushr

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Pixel
Exactly! I've said it so many times but I'm sick of the fandom woobifying him. He doesn't need to be defended or protected. Yes, he has his reasons for doing certain things and acting a certain way but that doesn't mean he's justified in doing so. And the narrative never justifies it, so it's unnecessary for Cloud stans to go out of their way and excuse every single thing he does. It drives me mad lol!
Because Cloud’s ultimate issue is thinking he’s better off presenting this fragment of a person instead of owning up to the truth of himself, his failures, and his flaws.

But isn’t that the very root of Aerith and Tifa’s confusion? Aerith, who sees shades of Zack in Cloud, is confused because Cloud lacks the personality she fell in love with. Similarly, Tifa sees real Cloud mixed into their interactions, but it vanishes when Cloud further sinks into his SOLDIER act.

It’s similar to people’s negative thoughts around method actors. They “immerse themselves in the role”, but unlike the real deal, they don’t know when to turn it off and just be normal.

That’s why the mechanics behind Cloud’s persona is so important: yes, Jenova plays a role in making all this possible, but it is not driving the ship with both hands (tentacles?). Like a master manipulator, Jenova just gives real Cloud the means to maintain his little mindpalace and softly nudges him along the reunion trail.

He’s very much a bot outside of interactions involving Tifa, speedrunning 101 courses on “how to person” outside of the surface-level understanding of how a SOLDIER is supposed to act, or better yet, how Zack with Sephiroth’s calm cool personality would act. He doesn’t understand that people would be offput by that type of person.
 

Sacky

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SackyBoy
If we really want to get down to it, romantic and carnal desire are two sides of the same coin. It’s the same chemicals being shot into our brain that forms attraction. The reason it happens is because we are all biologically wired to procreate.

Cloud thinking Wall Market Aerith is pretty and being flustered with Beachwear Tifa are both linked to sexual attraction. People need to understand that having romantic interest in someone is almost always accompanied by sexual desire.

I gotta say this is honestly weird. Do they not want Cloud to have sexual desire for Aerith? Should the two be in some sort of chaste relationship?

The answer is it’s just a convenient cope. They can pretend Cloud’s interest in Aerith is wholesome and his interest in Tifa is not. It’s incredibly dumb. It’s the same thing when it comes to the kiss. They have to recontextualize it as non-romantic but obviously a kiss is kind of hard to do that with so then their next option is for Cloud to be a douchebag.


Yeah, just like we’re actually supposed to be on Tifa’s side atop the rooftop at Kalm. Sure, Cloud has some extenuating circumstances but he is still accountable for things he says. (Yes, I know some people think Tifa is the one in the wrong here but I don’t think they actually understand the scene).

Or when he says he’s not interested in talking about Emilio. He said the wrong stuff here too.

I think Cloud is great, but certain fans thinking his circumstances vindicate him from some of the stuff he says is just lame.

Same for Advent Children, we’re not supposed to root for him as a deadbeat. And we’re supposed to be happy when he finally breaks out of his funk.
People baby Cloud too much and think as a kid he was bullied all the time when he was the one fighting
 

Ryeleigh

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Rye
What a lot of people (aka Cloud stans) dont understand is that the game is showing you how flawed of a person he is. You're not supposed to be on his side when he chooses to be rude to Aerith, shut Tifa out/question her existence, callously brush Yuffie's trauma off, insult Zack, etc. Like these are not things that we're supposed to be cheering for.

And so I've never quite understood why people get mad if someone says, "Ugh I feel really bad for Tifa/Aerith here, Cloud's a dick." It's like they hyperfocus on ships and assume that because we feel bad for the girl we're saying they're not a good match or we don't support the ship.

There are times (a lot of times!) I feel awful for Tifa in regards to Clouds behaviour.... because I'm SUPPOSED to feel bad. I'm not gonna go out of my way to defend those interactions between them bc I like them as a couple. If Cloud is being an asshole, he's being an asshole. It doesn't matter which character is currently facing his ire. And if people can't admit when Cloud is being an asshole to their fave because they wanna defend their ship.... that's a huge problem imo. Because how can you even identify and enjoy his character growth if you can't admit when he's being an ass to the girl you ship him with?
Yeah, it's kind of amazing that the girls get raked over hot coals and called every horrible thing for their flaws but say one (valid) criticism of Cloud and suddenly everyone's all, "Oh but he's a poor baby, you just don't understand." I mean, how many people still like to bring up Aerith's insensitive comment to Barret in the OG but Cloud being a jerk is either just "tee hee hee, that's so Cloud" or "he has an alien and Sephiroth messing around in his head! He can't help it!"?

But denying Cloud the consequences of his behaviour is denying his agency and if people deny his agency is he really any better than a puppet?

Yeah, just like we’re actually supposed to be on Tifa’s side atop the rooftop at Kalm. Sure, Cloud has some extenuating circumstances but he is still accountable for things he says. (Yes, I know some people think Tifa is the one in the wrong here but I don’t think they actually understand the scene).
I think it's still amazing that Tifa didn't just deck him right there and then, lmao.

Exactly! I've said it so many times but I'm sick of the fandom woobifying him. He doesn't need to be defended or protected. Yes, he has his reasons for doing certain things and acting a certain way but that doesn't mean he's justified in doing so. And the narrative never justifies it, so it's unnecessary for Cloud stans to go out of their way and excuse every single thing he does. It drives me mad lol!
I always say that explanations aren't excuses. So does the explanation excuse the actual behaviour or is the behaviour still bad regardless of the explanation?

Besides, I saw the ACC Cloud discourse on twitter too. And most people who criticised his character didn't even say that he's horrible and should die in a ditch. Most of them seemed to wish for a better resolution to his behaviour and that the film had focused more on Tifa since she's also going through a hard time. And instead, the discourse went right back to excusing and woobifying Cloud, lmao.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, it's kind of amazing that the girls get raked over hot coals and called every horrible thing for their flaws but say one (valid) criticism of Cloud and suddenly everyone's all, "Oh but he's a poor baby, you just don't understand." I mean, how many people still like to bring up Aerith's insensitive comment to Barret in the OG but Cloud being a jerk is either just "tee hee hee, that's so Cloud" or "he has an alien and Sephiroth messing around in his head! He can't help it!"?

But denying Cloud the consequences of his behaviour is denying his agency and if people deny his agency is he really any better than a puppet?


I think it's still amazing that Tifa didn't just deck him right there and then, lmao.


I always say that explanations aren't excuses. So does the explanation excuse the actual behaviour or is the behaviour still bad regardless of the explanation?

Besides, I saw the ACC Cloud discourse on twitter too. And most people who criticised his character didn't even say that he's horrible and should die in a ditch. Most of them seemed to wish for a better resolution to his behaviour and that the film had focused more on Tifa since she's also going through a hard time. And instead, the discourse went right back to excusing and woobifying Cloud, lmao.
YES TO EVERYTHING.

The twitter discourse, which I was apart of bc I'll stand ten toes down on criticizing Cloud (AND BARRET) in CoT and ACC, drove me insane because everyone missed the point. I know why Cloud left. I know why he shut Tifa out. I know that he thought he was doing what was was best. None of this changes the fact that he deeply hurt his family. Marlene, especially, is upset with him and she's only six. We're not SUPPOSED to be defending him! We're supposed to be cheering when he gets his ass back up and fights.

And it's so tiring to watch Tifa and Aerith get ripped apart for one mistake or saying one thing that made Cloud uncomfortable. Like who cares? Cloud makes other people uncomfortable all the time! Cloud is insensitive all the time! Stop writing thinkpieces on how Aerith was soooo inconsiderate and insensitive because she said his house looks cozy. That's not even half as bad as Cloud telling Yuffie to think about how much she's done for him and his friends when she's rightfully upset that she couldn't help the slaughtered Wutai soldiers in the Nibelheim reactor.
 
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pxl_pushr

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Pixel
YES TO EVERYTHING.

The twitter discourse, which I was apart of bc I'll stand ten toes down on criticizing Cloud (AND BARRET) in CoT and ACC, drove me insane because everyone missed the point. I know why Cloud left. I know why he shut Tifa out. I know that he thought he was doing what was was best. None of this changes the fact that he deeply hurt his family. Marlene, especially, is upset with him and she's only six. We're not SUPPOSED to be defending him! We're supposed to be cheering when he gets his ass back up and fights.

And it's so tiring to watch Tifa and Aerith get ripped apart for one mistake or saying one thing that made Cloud uncomfortable. Like who cares? Cloud makes other people uncomfortable all the time! Cloud is insensitive all the time! Stop writing thinkpieces on how Aerith was soooo inconsiderate and insensitive because she said his house looks cozy. That's not even half as bad as Cloud telling Yuffie to think about how much she's done for him and his friends when she's rightfully upset that she couldn't help the slaughtered Wutai soldiers in the Nibelheim reactor.
At the end of the day, Aerith AND CLOUD have very little normal social experience leading to a level of unintelligence, even if I’d easily say Aerith has way more social grace than SOLDIER Cloud especially.

ACC discourse will always get a very simple, “it’s not a very well executed film” from me and that’s about it. Creative execution needed polishing, business/marketing needed to get more of its nose out of it, and sometimes it’s best to trim and dig into your conflicts vs stacking on more.
 

Ryeleigh

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Rye
YES TO EVERYTHING.

The twitter discourse, which I was apart of bc I'll stand ten toes down on criticizing Cloud (AND BARRET) in CoT and ACC, drove me insane because everyone missed the point. I know why Cloud left. I know why he shut Tifa out. I know that he thought he was doing what was was best. None of this changes the fact that he deeply hurt his family. Marlene, especially, is upset with him and she's only six. We're not SUPPOSED to be defending him! We're supposed to be cheering when he gets his ass back up and fights.

And it's so tiring to watch Tifa and Aerith get ripped apart for one mistake or saying one thing that made Cloud uncomfortable. Like who cares? Cloud makes other people uncomfortable all the time! Cloud is insensitive all the time! Stop writing thinkpieces on how Aerith was soooo inconsiderate and insensitive because she said his house looks cozy. That's not even half as bad as Cloud telling Yuffie to think about how much she's done for him and his friends when she's rightfully upset that she couldn't help the slaughtered Wutai soldiers in the Nibelheim reactor.
The thing is, one of the more interesting aspects of fiction is perspective. How the story frames events and behaviours. For example, write a story from the perspective of a couple of criminals and most of the audience will sympathise with them instead of their nameless, faceless victims. And the reason why the victims are nameless and faceless is precisely because the story and the writers don't want you to care.

FF7 is from Cloud's perspective so obviously the audience sympathises with him the most. They're supposed to. And considering that ACC, for example, isn't from Tifa's perspective as she struggles with Cloud's absence and the reasons for it, her grief and her accountability with that grief, and taking care of two kids (which, let's be real, were kind of dumped on her by the men in her life) and a business, it makes sense that the audience doesn't really consider those things either. So instead, it's all excusing and woobifying Cloud.

But the other thing is, the story already does that. Which is why it's mostly from Cloud's perspective. So the audience doesn't need to do it too. And saying that Cloud and ACC could have been written better really isn't the same as condemning him to die alone in a ditch, lol.

I mean, an extreme example but Sephiroth's behaviour has explanations too. That's why he's a compelling character. But his explanations certainly don't excuse his actions.

If any of that made sense, lmao.
 

pxl_pushr

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Pixel
The thing is, one of the more interesting aspects of fiction is perspective. How the story frames events and behaviours. For example, write a story from the perspective of a couple of criminals and most of the audience will sympathise with them instead of their nameless, faceless victims. And the reason why the victims are nameless and faceless is precisely because the story and the writers don't want you to care.

FF7 is from Cloud's perspective so obviously the audience sympathises with him the most. They're supposed to. And considering that ACC, for example, isn't from Tifa's perspective as she struggles with Cloud's absence and the reasons for it, her grief and her accountability with that grief, and taking care of two kids (which, let's be real, were kind of dumped on her by the men in her life) and a business, it makes sense that the audience doesn't really consider those things either. So instead, it's all excusing and woobifying Cloud.

But the other thing is, the story already does that. Which is why it's mostly from Cloud's perspective. So the audience doesn't need to do it too. And saying that Cloud and ACC could have been written better really isn't the same as condemning him to die alone in a ditch, lol.

I mean, an extreme example but Sephiroth's behaviour has explanations too. That's why he's a compelling character. But his explanations certainly don't excuse his actions.

If any of that made sense, lmao.
Godzilla Minus One managed to tell ACC’s emotional arc quite well in a monster movie, so ACC doesn’t get much excuses from me lol

You don’t need much, but you do need pinpoint accuracy in your scenes between people.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
The thing is, one of the more interesting aspects of fiction is perspective. How the story frames events and behaviours. For example, write a story from the perspective of a couple of criminals and most of the audience will sympathise with them instead of their nameless, faceless victims. And the reason why the victims are nameless and faceless is precisely because the story and the writers don't want you to care.

FF7 is from Cloud's perspective so obviously the audience sympathises with him the most. They're supposed to. And considering that ACC, for example, isn't from Tifa's perspective as she struggles with Cloud's absence and the reasons for it, her grief and her accountability with that grief, and taking care of two kids (which, let's be real, were kind of dumped on her by the men in her life) and a business, it makes sense that the audience doesn't really consider those things either. So instead, it's all excusing and woobifying Cloud.

But the other thing is, the story already does that. Which is why it's mostly from Cloud's perspective. So the audience doesn't need to do it too. And saying that Cloud and ACC could have been written better really isn't the same as condemning him to die alone in a ditch, lol.

I mean, an extreme example but Sephiroth's behaviour has explanations too. That's why he's a compelling character. But his explanations certainly don't excuse his actions.

If any of that made sense, lmao.
Absolutely and I wholeheartedly agree w/ you.

The issue with OTWTAS and ACC, as many people have pointed out before me, is that it's basically a redo of Cloud's arc in condensed format w/ bad execution. While there's nothing wrong with Cloud having to re-learn that he's not alone/doesn't have to do everything alone, it does trample on a lot of his already established relationships. It almost feels like, "woops, we kinda forgot to show Cloud grieving and feeling sad/guilty in OG so... here he is doing that now!"

And my complaints are never that Cloud sucks, but rather that the writing sucks and it fails a lot of these characters. I had completely forced myself to forget the scene in CoT where Barret tells Tifa he's going on a journey to settle his past and when she says she wants to do that too, he tells her she needs to stay home and raise Marlene. It's basically like "No, you settle your past by being a mother to MY child, thanks." And that's so OOC for Barret now. Just like Cloud knowing about Barret wanting to leave and not sticking up for Tifa's right to be involved in this decision is OOC for him now too.

A lot of the behaviour that sets up ACC doesn't even make sense for these characters anymore, and in fact Nojima has gone out of his way to undercut his own writing for ACC--which is very interesting. In ToTP, Tifa is adamant about the fact that she will allow no one to decide what her life will be or what it will look like yet in CoT, Barret and Cloud do just that. And this makes me sad, because if all of that stays canon that's so damn tragic for her character.
 

Ryeleigh

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Rye
A lot of the behaviour that sets up ACC doesn't even make sense for these characters anymore, and in fact Nojima has gone out of his way to undercut his own writing for ACC--which is very interesting. In ToTP, Tifa is adamant about the fact that she will allow no one to decide what her life will be or what it will look like yet in CoT, Barret and Cloud do just that. And this makes me sad, because if all of that stays canon that's so damn tragic for her character.
Yeah, I mean, in Rebirth Cloud opens up to Tifa about his identity problems and his fear of cellular degradation -- mind, after attacking her in the midst of a Sephiroth-induced breakdown -- but supposedly a couple of years down the line, he isn't going to do the same in ACC, lol? Like, that wouldn't even be character regression anymore. That'd be, I don't even know, a retcon?

I always saw the chronology of Re-trilogy as CC - OG - ACC - DOC - RT because it would let them keep all the previous entries without replacing anything or necessarily contradicting anything previous? But well, who knows. The devs keep saying that Re-trilogy is the same as the OG even though it's already different from the OG.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I mean, in Rebirth Cloud opens up to Tifa about his identity problems and his fear of cellular degradation -- mind, after attacking her in the midst of a Sephiroth-induced breakdown -- but supposedly a couple of years down the line, he isn't going to do the same in ACC, lol? Like, that wouldn't even be character regression anymore. That'd be, I don't even know, a retcon?

I always saw the chronology of Re-trilogy as CC - OG - ACC - DOC - RT because it would let them keep all the previous entries without replacing anything or necessarily contradicting anything previous? But well, who knows. The devs keep saying that Re-trilogy is the same as the OG even though it's already different from the OG.
Right? It drives me nuts lol and I bet it drives Nojima nuts too.

As for chronology.... I had the same thought but since the devs claim RT is the same as OG maybe it'll be more like...

CC - OG - ACC - DOC
↳ - RT - ???
 

Ryeleigh

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AKA
Rye
As for chronology.... I had the same thought but since the devs claim RT is the same as OG maybe it'll be more like...

CC - OG - ACC - DOC
↳ - RT - ???
Oh, you put the chronology a lot better than me. XD But yeah, something like that. I guess we'll all see definitely in Part 3. I mean, I don't think they're lying? But I also don't think they'd reveal massive story spoilers in an interview?

I still have my fingers crossed for a happy ending. Don't judge me, lol. Dump Sephiroth(s) in one of the dying worlds and bring Aerith and Zack back to the prime world so they can travel the planet together. They can drive Cloud and Tifa nuts with their shenanigans, lol.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
I still have my fingers crossed for a happy ending. Don't judge me, lol. Dump Sephiroth(s) in one of the dying worlds and bring Aerith and Zack back to the prime world so they can travel the planet together. They can drive Cloud and Tifa nuts with their shenanigans, lol.
You and I are on the same wavelength there, my friend. CHEERS!!
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
A lot of the behaviour that sets up ACC doesn't even make sense for these characters anymore, and in fact Nojima has gone out of his way to undercut his own writing for ACC--which is very interesting. In ToTP, Tifa is adamant about the fact that she will allow no one to decide what her life will be or what it will look like yet in CoT, Barret and Cloud do just that. And this makes me sad, because if all of that stays canon that's so damn tragic for her character.
I agree with you, but I can compromise if they give us a post ACC epilogue at the end of Part 3. I need to see some sort of resolution after the Compilation events for this truly feel complete.

If they can't do that then at that point I would want them to redo ACC.
 

Reaper3Delta

Pro Adventurer
Absolutely and I wholeheartedly agree w/ you.

The issue with OTWTAS and ACC, as many people have pointed out before me, is that it's basically a redo of Cloud's arc in condensed format w/ bad execution. While there's nothing wrong with Cloud having to re-learn that he's not alone/doesn't have to do everything alone, it does trample on a lot of his already established relationships. It almost feels like, "woops, we kinda forgot to show Cloud grieving and feeling sad/guilty in OG so... here he is doing that now!"

And my complaints are never that Cloud sucks, but rather that the writing sucks and it fails a lot of these characters. I had completely forced myself to forget the scene in CoT where Barret tells Tifa he's going on a journey to settle his past and when she says she wants to do that too, he tells her she needs to stay home and raise Marlene. It's basically like "No, you settle your past by being a mother to MY child, thanks." And that's so OOC for Barret now. Just like Cloud knowing about Barret wanting to leave and not sticking up for Tifa's right to be involved in this decision is OOC for him now too.

A lot of the behaviour that sets up ACC doesn't even make sense for these characters anymore, and in fact Nojima has gone out of his way to undercut his own writing for ACC--which is very interesting. In ToTP, Tifa is adamant about the fact that she will allow no one to decide what her life will be or what it will look like yet in CoT, Barret and Cloud do just that. And this makes me sad, because if all of that stays canon that's so damn tragic for her character.
It's interesting that now Part 3 is going to deal with "Grieving, Loss and Denial" could we maybe guess that the Devs add Survivor's Guilt too since is mentioned already (Cloud don't blame yourself) and I hope from Tifa's POV too. Regarding Barret, Remake and Rebirth shows how much he is attached to Marlene, so at least these characters feel very different as how OTWTAS and AC/C portrays them. IMHO the novel and Advent Children movie need to be updated to the changes of the Retrilogy.
 
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Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
The issue with OTWTAS and ACC, as many people have pointed out before me, is that it's basically a redo of Cloud's arc in condensed format w/ bad execution. While there's nothing wrong with Cloud having to re-learn that he's not alone/doesn't have to do everything alone, it does trample on a lot of his already established relationships. It almost feels like, "woops, we kinda forgot to show Cloud grieving and feeling sad/guilty in OG so... here he is doing that now!"
I totally forgot to answer to this part!

As you said, considering that ACC is basically a redo of Cloud's arc, it almost sounds like ACC was unnecessary... :desu:
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
I agree with you, but I can compromise if they give us a post ACC epilogue at the end of Part 3. I need to see some sort of resolution after the Compilation events for this truly feel complete.

If they can't do that then at that point I would want them to redo ACC.
I don't know if I can compromise but it's not like I get a choice anyway ... 🥲
It's interesting that now Part 3 is going to deal with "Grieving, Loss and Denial" could we maybe guess that the Devs add Survivor's Guilt too since is mentioned already (Cloud don't blame yourself) and I hope from Tifa's POV too. Regarding Barret, Remake and Rebirth shows how much he is attached to Marlene, so at least these characters feel very different as how OTWTAS and AC/C portrays them. IMHO the novel and Advent Children movie need to be updated to the changes of the Retrilogy.
Yeah, exactly. They're finally going to cover it within the scope of the OG itself so.... can we replace ACC with something else? Maybe? Please??
I totally forgot to answer to this part!

As you said, considering that ACC is basically a redo of Cloud's arc, it almost sounds like ACC was unnecessary... :desu:
Let's wipe it out of canon, besties!! Woooo lmaooo it can stay for the OG continuity but pls.... do we rly need it for RT? I think not!
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I'm not opposed to a version of ACC where we just cut out the angst and just go pure spectacle with a Sephiroth final gambit. Like hell, if you want to keep some angst, have it be that instead of running away because he's convinced he's not worthy of happiness, have it be even more explicit that Cloud's looking for a cure for Denzel with the reveal that he's testing them on himself at the church so as not to worry Tifa and the kids with the fact that he's got the disease too. That way he's not repeating the same arc but you still get the "I have to prove I deserve this happiness" motivation which was one of the better throughlines for OTWTAS and ACC.
He'd also still be living at home, natch, with the setup in the church being a lean to with a bunch of research and failed cures and whatnot.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I'd love that but I think it would be way too expensive to remake. So I'm hoping that at the very least we get the OtWtaS rewritten. Maybe they could shoot/reshoot a few scenes for ACC, but the quality difference would be really jarring so IDK about that.
 
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