SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Xannis]

I've observed a lot of complains toward the developers of the Remake series regarding how they handle the LTD. People will often say that certain sections felt forced or out-of-character. I can't help but wonder how much hindsight plays a role in this.

To someone who has played the OG and is familiar with the compilation material (I put myself in this category), it's very difficult to see the Remake series with fresh eyes. Everything is viewed in light of the assumed ending, in this case, Cloud ending up with Tifa. We know the love triangle is a ruse.

But I think we need to keep in mind that the developers fully intend to depict a love triangle in the first two parts of this trilogy. They want new players to experience the ruse for themselves. This is why I don't expect things to be clear in Remake and Rebirth. The developers are trying to recreate the feeling of playing the OG for the first time, for players who are playing Remake and Rebirth for the first time. When we played OG for the first time, we didn't know Cloud had a history with Tifa like that. We didn't know Tifa was devoted to Cloud like that.

So when we look at the dream date, for example, and talk about how out of place it is or why Aerith looks like she fell for Cloud but isn't sure, we need to remember that it's all a part of the ruse. The developers are trying to play with fans' expectations in a similar way to the original.

Funny but I'm in the camp of OG was indeed kind of vague but Remake/Rebirth seem to be taking a different tack and clearly saying "You should be rooting for CT and ZA respectively here" through the story beats. At least as clearly as they can say it at this point.

We'll see how well this ages of course but if you have even a basic understanding of tropes and assume FF will follow them they're dropping all kinds of hints that CT and ZA are the endpoints that even a complete casual will catch and/or understand. ZA in particular seems to have been taken up to 11 so to speak in Remake/Rebirth vs OG. This whole Zack searching for his love across time and space (while Aerith waffles back and forth not knowing he's still out there) thing is so tropey and only has one acceptable endpoint unless it were Game of Thrones. That paired with all kinds of little hinty things they added to CT that weren't in OG. I mean I just can't see the "Triangle" in Remake/Rebirth when you look at scenes like the train roll and the almost kiss when the other side has nothing like that.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Funny but I'm in the camp of OG was indeed kind of vague but Remake/Rebirth seem to be taking a different tack and clearly saying "You should be rooting for CT and ZA respectively here" through the story beats. At least as clearly as they can say it at this point.

We'll see how well this ages of course but if you have even a basic understanding of tropes and assume FF will follow them they're dropping all kinds of hints that CT and ZA are the endpoints that even a complete casual will catch and/or understand. ZA in particular seems to have been taken up to 11 so to speak in Remake/Rebirth vs OG. This whole Zack searching for his love across time and space (while Aerith waffles back and forth not knowing he's still out there) thing is so tropey and only has one acceptable endpoint unless it were Game of Thrones. That paired with all kinds of little hinty things they added to CT that weren't in OG. I mean I just can't see the "Triangle" in Remake/Rebirth when you look at scenes like the train roll and the almost kiss when the other side has nothing like that.

I agree. One of the reasons why I can't really take Re-trilogy or the LTD as vague is, well, Zack. If the devs wanted to be vague (or explicit for that matter) about the LTD or CA, there is seriously no reason for Zack to physically exist in the story. He was dead. There was no need to bring him back. They could've written Aerith's initial attraction, her confusion, her wavering, all of it without bringing Zack back and showing his devotion and unwavering determination to save/reunite with her.

But apparently, you can't even discuss Zack or ZA without the knee-jerk response from certain fans that "Zack doesn't own Aerith" or "Aerith is allowed to move on" as if she's real and the devs are just forcing her to love or stay stuck on Zack out of the maliciousness of their petty hearts.

And that's without getting to CT, lol.

 

[Skilganon]

I feel like the distinct contentiousness of the FF7 LTD is 99% the fault of SE. There is a sizeable chunk of people who played the OG, watched/played the compilation material, whose main source of enjoyment in the world of FF7 revolves around Cloud and Aerith. In the years after the OG, leading into the compilation, SE licensed a lot of third-party merchandise directed at the CA audience. There were also CA themed easter eggs in a lot of mobile games before/during the compilation.

Even though we can say "marketing isn't evidence", a lot of CAs feel validated. I don't think it's at all unethical for SE to make money off of this, if indeed they intended the ships to be vague in the OG and wanted people to interpret as they saw fit. But I haven't seen any sign in interviews with Nojima or Nomura that indicate the vagueness of their intentions.

What I mean is, Nojima and Nomura constantly say they have their own interpretations, but don't mind if players come to different conclusions. To me, this sets up a situation where one side is bound to feel bamboozled in the end, as SE is determined to expand the world and character relationships. Because Nojima and Nomura's intentions will eventually come to light.

And when it does, how will all those people feel who bought all that CA merch? I don't think it'll go over well.

SE should have either committed to the vagueness of the relationships, or just went full-on CT from the beginning of the compilation. What they're doing now is going seemingly full-on CT after two decades of compilation material, meanwhile giving CAs just enough to feel satisfied.

 

[Sacky]

It truly amazes me that people claim to love FF7 yet for their idea of a different AC the change they want is for Cloud to have a lifestream form Baby with Aerith, become even more depressed, and as a bonus fun thing for Tifa fans she would be able to raise the lifeform while Cloud gets to be depressed??
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1g5xukc

 

[pxl_pushr]

It truly amazes me that people claim to love FF7 yet for their idea of a different AC the change they want is for Cloud to have a lifestream form Baby with Aerith, become even more depressed, and as a bonus fun thing for Tifa fans she would be able to raise the lifeform while Cloud gets to be depressed??
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1g5xukc

Now see this is what happens when the recipe calls for a teaspoon of Berserk but you dump in half the bottle.

 

[null]

See what happens when you koibito tsunagi in the promised land without protection? Be careful out there fellas.

 

[Skilganon]

That post has 13 comments as of writing and 0 upvotes. You can find posts like that everywhere, not that uncommon. FF7 just seems to attract theory-crafters.

 

[Eerie]

I've observed a lot of complains toward the developers of the Remake series regarding how they handle the LTD. People will often say that certain sections felt forced or out-of-character. I can't help but wonder how much hindsight plays a role in this.

To someone who has played the OG and is familiar with the compilation material (I put myself in this category), it's very difficult to see the Remake series with fresh eyes. Everything is viewed in light of the assumed ending, in this case, Cloud ending up with Tifa. We know the love triangle is a ruse.

But I think we need to keep in mind that the developers fully intend to depict a love triangle in the first two parts of this trilogy. They want new players to experience the ruse for themselves. This is why I don't expect things to be clear in Remake and Rebirth. The developers are trying to recreate the feeling of playing the OG for the first time, for players who are playing Remake and Rebirth for the first time. When we played OG for the first time, we didn't know Cloud had a history with Tifa like that. We didn't know Tifa was devoted to Cloud like that.

So when we look at the dream date, for example, and talk about how out of place it is or why Aerith looks like she fell for Cloud but isn't sure, we need to remember that it's all a part of the ruse. The developers are trying to play with fans' expectations in a similar way to the original.

Watching people who play blind, not knowing anything about FF7 is really an amazing experience. I would advise you to watch Welonz and WhimsyPsyche's let's plays on YT, it will show you what you can guess if you can think about what you see on screen. The first played Remake, CCR and Rebirth, the latter only Remake and Rebirth (and the latter likes to theorycraft and oof, the things she manages to guess are way above your normal player).

Rather than a love triangle, I would say that the developpers did expand on the OG in terms of what we saw there for the relationships between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith; the latter two are best friends, but Aerith falls for Cloud because she sees Zack in him, while Cloud is into Tifa and Tifa is worried about him. Mind you, that was also the story in OG, I'll be back later on to this. But YES, it IS meant to be confusing because we are in the heart of what I call "the Illusion". This lasts until Aerith's death.

Funny but I'm in the camp of OG was indeed kind of vague but Remake/Rebirth seem to be taking a different tack and clearly saying "You should be rooting for CT and ZA respectively here" through the story beats. At least as clearly as they can say it at this point.

We'll see how well this ages of course but if you have even a basic understanding of tropes and assume FF will follow them they're dropping all kinds of hints that CT and ZA are the endpoints that even a complete casual will catch and/or understand. ZA in particular seems to have been taken up to 11 so to speak in Remake/Rebirth vs OG. This whole Zack searching for his love across time and space (while Aerith waffles back and forth not knowing he's still out there) thing is so tropey and only has one acceptable endpoint unless it were Game of Thrones. That paired with all kinds of little hinty things they added to CT that weren't in OG. I mean I just can't see the "Triangle" in Remake/Rebirth when you look at scenes like the train roll and the almost kiss when the other side has nothing like that.

I feel like the distinct contentiousness of the FF7 LTD is 99% the fault of SE. There is a sizeable chunk of people who played the OG, watched/played the compilation material, whose main source of enjoyment in the world of FF7 revolves around Cloud and Aerith. In the years after the OG, leading into the compilation, SE licensed a lot of third-party merchandise directed at the CA audience. There were also CA themed easter eggs in a lot of mobile games before/during the compilation.

Even though we can say "marketing isn't evidence", a lot of CAs feel validated. I don't think it's at all unethical for SE to make money off of this, if indeed they intended the ships to be vague in the OG and wanted people to interpret as they saw fit. But I haven't seen any sign in interviews with Nojima or Nomura that indicate the vagueness of their intentions.

What I mean is, Nojima and Nomura constantly say they have their own interpretations, but don't mind if players come to different conclusions. To me, this sets up a situation where one side is bound to feel bamboozled in the end, as SE is determined to expand the world and character relationships. Because Nojima and Nomura's intentions will eventually come to light.

And when it does, how will all those people feel who bought all that CA merch? I don't think it'll go over well.

SE should have either committed to the vagueness of the relationships, or just went full-on CT from the beginning of the compilation. What they're doing now is going seemingly full-on CT after two decades of compilation material, meanwhile giving CAs just enough to feel satisfied.

I'm going to answer you both here, but, the who Cloud loved and how did the LT end in the OG was never vague. Replay the OG, look at the options, look at how Cloud answers to Aerith and you will see it as I did back in my first playthrough: Cloud is not kind to Aerith. Look at how you can never have an unkind answer for Tifa. In my first playthrough, I really hated both Cloud and Aerith because I thought the game would push her as the main love interest, as she was extremely pushy, but I hated that and the fact that Cloud was basically a gigantic arsehole.

Comes Aerith's death and I thought "oh I see they're going to have him lament so much after her now?" but it never came. Instead I had the NC scene where Cloud tells Tifa, while still acting as his ex-SOLDIER persona "only your opinion counts". Uh that sounded oddly romantic for him, I thought, but I went on and came Mideel I was telling Tifa to drop him like a brick because he was a gigantic arsehole not worth of her time (as you can guess, I was so not shipping them together at this point).

Then the Lifestream scene happened and I was shook by how much this guy loved her and only then I went "ok you can have her then". And this is what the devs intended, right there: the LT ends in the LS scene where you find true!Cloud with his real feelings and it was only ever Tifa. And he loved her oh so much that no, there was no space left for any other girl, including Aerith. Even Tifa herself is shook to find just how much he does love her, that's why at the end of the sequence she's having this line about people hiding so much of their feelings or something.

Then the HW scene, whether you consider both the high or low affection doesn't mean jack: both are supposed to be romantic, only Tifa's feelings are considered in this scene to know which one you get. And you have to treat her very poorly to not get the high affection one - the one that is considered canon by SE, by all means.

And in the finale scene, after Aerith saves Cloud, you get Cloud and Tifa promising each other to meet again in the Lifestream after their death to meet all their loved ones that they have lost. It's literally a new promise to meet again beyond death, all with Tifa's theme playing. I do not see how the OG is vague at all unless you rely on bad translations to keep your hopes up.

As for the way Aerith was pushed, yeah she dies. So SE wanted to soften that blow, but there isn't much CA merch as it is. And Tifa was so popular when they released the JP version that they added the train station scene in the international version. As per the devs' words, that is the reason why they added that scene. There was a lot of CT push that we didn't get to see because it was early internet times and all their promo was basically for JP players only.

But right in 97', you had Nomura saying that Tifa was the story choice, and that Aerith was a player choice. There's nothing much to add to this, really.

The fact that fandom decided that it was vague when it wasn't, that he loved both when he didn't, that he loved Aerith more when ??? How lol, that Cloud and Tifa were just roomates in AC/C (???) is the most WTF moment for me and it's a great thing that both Nojima and Nomura are in to change that.

 

[Skilganon]

@Eerie You might see it as a done deal since 1997 and a lot of people do. But here's the thing, SE could have done a lot more to make it clear as day. You don't see them putting out Tidus x Rikku merch, for example. And there was a lot of merch pushing CA before/around the compilation (I know because I read Clerith blogs and they talk about it ad nauseum, and their reasoning is always that SE sees them as a legitimate couple, so why shouldn't we?)

SE could have just not made the CA merch, stuck to CT, pushed CT in marketing. But they weren't doing this, at least not in early/mid 2000's.

To a general audience, the messaging and marketing is vague. You may not see it that way, because you know the story, but there are a lot of people who know FF7 by name recognition alone and are influenced by these things.

And the biggest reason for this is that Cloud's true love interest is only revealed when the grand mystery of the game, Cloud's identity, is resolved. So talking earnestly about Cloud's love could be a spoiler in itself.

SE decided to make Cloud and Tifa's relationship in AC vague. In interviews, Nomura said this was a deliberate choice to not step on the toes of Clerith shippers (This is my interpretation of when he says, "We wanted to leave things open..."), well, open for what? For people who want to think Cloud is depressed and mourning after Aerith romantically. They admit in interviews they wanted to keep the LT going even after one of the triangle is dead. This was a TERRIBLE choice.

This decision cripples the plot of the movie, because how are you supposed to care about Cloud returning to his family if we don't have proper context for his relationships? AC would have been better if they made it clear Cloud and Tifa were/are an item, but the movie leaves just enough room to think that they aren't.

And Nomura's line about "This is a movie made by Japanese people, we don't spell everything out..." pure bullsh*t. These same writers made FF10 and FF8 and the romances are crystal clear. Laguna and Raine have like two scenes together and we already know what they feel about each other. Nojima and Nomura have no compunction about spelling things out for the audience.

This also extends to the theme songs of Remake and Rebirth. We can talk all we want about the subjects of these songs and how they're more symbolic than we think, yada yada. But at the end of the day, the CA interpretation fits like a glove. Hollow and NPTK even play when Cloud and Aerith are hanging out together. These songs play over the credits, in which the Cloud/Aerith scenes are the default. What are we supposed to take away from this?

This is why I think the LTD is 99% the fault of SE. We can complain about CAs and their weird takes but we have to admit they've been fed for a while.

If any CA shipper feels like they've been led on for 27 years, I can sympathize completely. SE has been leading them on, deliberately. And when there is some kind of meltdown, it will be SE's fault entirely.

Edit: I didn't mean this to turn into an anti-SE rant, but this is something I've been wanting to express for a while.

 

[Eerie]

A lot of CA "merch" is just Cloud and Aerith merchandising sold separately. Ryu can probably infer better than what I can but there were a lot of lies spread by Western CAs to make people believe they absolutely were canon or seen as canon back then. As early as the beginning of the 2000's you had Itadaki street where CAs pretended the game was CA when it's a lot more CT.

If you knew how to analyse medium, the game absolutely told you it was CT that was the canon pairing. I got out of my first playthrough thinking that, and I was taken by the illusion of CA - even if I hated it lol. It's just that people absolutely refused what the game told them for some, have played rather young so didn't understand the game or have played only once and only have vague souvenirs.

When SE puts Cloud and Tifa with the other canon pairs on an Ultimania and people still deny that they are canon, then it's not on SE anymore I'm sorry.

This also extends to the theme songs of Remake and Rebirth. We can talk all we want about the subjects of these songs and how they're more symbolic than we think, yada yada. But at the end of the day, the CA interpretation fits like a glove. Hollow and NPTK even play when Cloud and Aerith are hanging out together. These songs play over the credits, in which the Cloud/Aerith scenes are the default. What are we supposed to take away from this?

I'm sorry but if you want to believe their BS interpretations that actually don't fit it's on you, not on Nojima who wrote the lyrics. To me it's quite clear that Hollow is about Zack (Cloud hasn't lost Aerith yet) AND himself. Aerith's song is MUCH BETTER if you take Nojima's interpretation, it also fits better because what lol if she's confessing to Cloud there it means that when you get Tifa at the GS, she sees Cloud and Tifa holding hands. Then what? Oops, got rejected in front of everyone?

Not everything has to be seen from a shipping eye, but a lot try to force the shipping eye onto those things and you know what? It diminishes the characters. ALWAYS.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Ehh...I tend to dislike that merch/supplemental representation point of view. In totality of it all—this is primarily the effect of fans having different paths of understanding and reaching different conclusions of what stuff means.

Like, for a general fandom example, I have an issue with the VERY overused path of thinking that representing characters outside of their games (epitextually) is somehow a directive for either making their relationship vague, or "proving" they're mutually romantic. And we ain't talking about situations where the nature of the relationship is directly being represented (i.e. SE doing the blogs on Valentine's Day—directly implies or states romanticism)—nah we're talking being on a freaking coffee cup or a McDonalds ad. lol Because, there is the more simple, effective understanding that for merch, artwork, twitter posts, references in other game, etc.—these are all simply extensions of the character's connection via the context of which they come from. Like, it's that simple in the most bare minimum way unless something else present is giving a commentary that is MORE than what their context already gives. And analyzing stuff like this—that's it's own rabbit hole of conclusions drawn and arguments to make. Kingdom Hearts and Tactics being exhausting in this area. Even just two characters STANDING next to each other in an ad is somehow controversial.

Even if you accept CA is vague in-game on what the romantic storytelling ultimately means for both (as in directly giving context), Cloud and Aerith simply existing on a t-shirt doesn't give you "they're canon!" or "they're complicated" on it's own. And yes, some fans WILL think otherwise because that's what they do, but as what also is normal, there can be flawed understandings by fans for a multitude of reasons. And it would be silly to think that this occurrence is something that should deter SE from having any general representation of CA outside of the game. Two character leads heavily connected are going to be represented, flat out. If a random sees CA in merch and concludes "oh, they must be the lead romantic couple of whatever this is"—I mean, that's just going to happen because of a lack of knowledge + personal preconception, and chances are, these same people are ALSO the ones that watched AC without playing the OG and had zero problem seeing Cloud and Tifa's relationship issues through the lens of romance. Coincidentally, this could ALSO include people who only played the 1st KH, watched AC, and saw Cloud as lamenting Aerith as a romantic interest who died and have no idea where Tifa came from. There's options, none of which I would say is a fault of the writers and SE. I think in terms of those interviews, there's arguments to make about wording and takeaways from the things they have said too, but it would also still be specific to CA, not CT too technically.

But in terms of CA just like, EXISTING, and people drawing crazy conclusions—I wish this trajectory of thought would change. And to be fair, this isn't just CA though. Some people who dislike CA will too draw conclusions, and will act a certain way from CA also existing outside of the game and will aggressively, without prompt do everything they can to make sure CAs can't even fawn over it in their own bubbles. Example, people who are underlyingly annoyed that Cloud and Aerith's ENG VAs have nominations for awards and CAs are, of course, happy for it in a shipping way.

 

[Skilganon]

My issue is SE leaves too much room open for the BS interpretations. Whether you agree with it or not is beside the point.

They decided to write a song with the lyrics "This time, I will never let you go." The notion of this being from the POV of a post-AC Cloud ruminating over Aerith's death fits (whether or not you agree with it). I find it very hard to believe Nojima would write such a song without thinking CAs would feel validated here. If he didn't want CAs to feel validated, he would have written something else. Also, if it was about Zack, I don't think Cloud would think about wanting to embrace him.

Also, there are Anniversary Ultimanias out there in which the "For the One I love" page shows both the Highwind Scene and the Cloud/Aerith Gold Saucer date, while each other FF has one canon couple. This is the kind of shit I'm talking about.

SE has equivocated in the past. It's the root of the problem.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Thing is, the actual outlandish interpretations have A LOT of dependency outside of what is presented (as is true for a multitude of fandoms), and I mean that in a way where I don't believe companies shouldn't be able to represent what makes sense character and story-wise because of fandom concern. As much as I think CT should've been more direct in AC as much as ya'll, I have enough experience to believe the dent this would put in incomprehensive takes in that movie wouldn't be as big as some people believe for those this affects.

Simply because the capabilities of fandom interpretation can often be unreliable as ANY miniscule content is "validating" and taken advantage of, let's be honest here. Hollow also has direct meaning AND application contextually that isn't specific to just Cloud dealing with Aerith's death, whether you want to emphasis that or not. I'm pretty sure you're aware of it in general, it's just on the WAY back burner for many people or downright not acknowledged. Cause that's just it, CAs feeling validated (in whatever way of which they can) from writing that gravitates around Cloud and Aerith, two main leads and a relationship that IS an important narrative point, is going to and HAS happened because that's just what interpretations naturally do. And whether this is wrong depends what exactly is being validated and in what way—there's variety here, in which some is totally fine and SHOULD be allowed to be fine. Their relationship involving romanticism storytelling-wise IS true in a definitive sense, so of course there will be things congruent with this. CA fans are gonna go "uwu" from Cloud catching Aerith from falling. So? This shouldn't be a slap in the face if this is part of the story the devs are telling, and organically it isn't a big deal.

Now don't get me wrong—the point that the writers aren't definitive about character relationships is valid as a conversation about the storytelling and their writing ability. But, between appreciating that vs the REAL bs that isn't directly begetted from the writing (shipping shit and even MASSIVE community theories, too)—c'mon, there's too much other shit involved in these circumstances that I'm not going to put on their writing as the "solution". The examples of this not being so exist. I've seen of what people are STILL capable of when dealing with literal, and I mean LITERAL, direct information given in a product. I know you have the "give them an inch" mindset here, which I'm not out of the same thinking completely so I'm not egging you here, but the interpretations that go beyond the reasonable line is reflective of something beyond the writing though in some of the most worst ways that I can't take my criticisms of their writing out on that in particular.

 

[Maidenofwar]

When Nojima statement came out I eventually amended my belief strictly from it's a love song about Cloud like Uematsu, etc is saying to it's a love song about Cloud, Zack, everyone. Of course if you get the CA date with Cloud clutching the petal to his heart it can become more Cloud aligned and even most of the dates where Aerith was in the play you can say is romantic for CA if that is your desire. Nojima did also say it has elements of a love song, and also that there is nothing wrong with a love song. So yeah I'd say they were probably aware some would probably take it more seriously as a love song, and even some of those on staff it looked like they were, and people were free to do so.

Hollow discourse I tried to stay away from but might lean towards that one is multifaceted as well.

When you get things like the Rebirth concerts World tours repeatedly using a specific date over and over and including the Rebirth Aerith flower quest during Hollow of course some CAs are going to feel validated, some more than others, some might even add Kitase saying Aerith dying left a hole behind/Cloud losing someone he loved leaving a hole, buuut even though the concert scenes show stuff like

Spoiler

Cloud and Aerith in the flower field and at the Chocobo ranch with Chloe

you're also heading in the direction of the Midgar Badlands while doing that quest so Zack too maybe, and Aerith's ties with Zack, etc. Cloud having flashes of future Aerith/her fate in Remake could also factor into why some could think of Aerith with Hollow, her healing him in AC, etc. Of course thinking Hollow has nothing to do with Aerith in any way, shape or form whatsoever people can think that too

 

[Eerie]

Hollow starts when they cross Zack’s memory in Remake. This is the reason why its non-lyrical version plays in sector 5, it’s because both Cloud and Aerith miss Zack. A LOT. And I’d even say they bond over it.

You can add that when Zack dies is also when Cloud loses his true self; that’s when Jenova imprints Zack’s memories in his mind. We know the image of the song is Cloud crying in the rain in a barren land and that happens only once in the story: when Zack dies.

Both Zack and Aerith are people Cloud loved - not romantically but they were still his dear friends! But at this point in game, Cloud still hasn’t lost Aerith, and I would argue he still hasn’t gone through a proper mourning / realisation that she died by the end of Rebirth.

I also hope you’re all realising that p3 will probably have Tifa as the game theme song character. You cannot act as if there’s only going to have two songs connecting two characters and oh the third one is going to be about something completely different (when said character is about to save the guy from the first song). The interpretation from Nojima is one that lets those characters shine and light them in ways that are just better than just it’s about CA. The devs do not think of these characters in light of a ship, they leave that for shippers, they see them in terms of roles, characterisation, relationships with the whole cast. And they want everyone to love them, so our interpretations should always take that into account.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Okay, I hope I can express this intelligibly.

The thing is, shipping inherently and in its crudest form romanticises/sexualises every character interaction, emotion and trait. Because shippers see something there according to their own biases, experiences, fantasies and knowledge, and then they kind of start to view everything through confirmation bias. But that still doesn't mean that there's anything there. From two other fandoms, I can say that shippers can 100% create a ship and love triangles out of thin air even if all the creators involved tell them: "Sorry, there's no there there. It's not happening."

As for marketing, as far as I know about another fandom, the canon ship gets practically zero marketing while the non-canon ship gets practically all the marketing. This still doesn't make the non-canon ship canon. So marketing and other auxiliary material just... don't trump the original story? Which doesn't mean that people can't be happy or squee about the crumbs they get. For example, the characters' names being mentioned in another story. Like, that easter egg had zero to do with romance but people hold it up as a ship crumb anyway so. Whatever floats their boats.

As for ACC, Cloud and Tifa are about as explicit as any shounen canon couple after a time skip? Aerith is treated more as a Mother Goddess figure than a lost love interest. Cloud calls her mum when he's floating in the white space. She jokes with Zack -- you know, who was her boyfriend -- that Cloud is too big to adopt and then walks away with the same old boyfriend. The last shot of them, symbolically, is Aerith's flowers on Zack's grave and Zack's sword in Aerith's church.

I mean, it's as straightforward as it gets without having the characters kiss every five seconds or explicitly say, "Hey, my old dead friend and nothing but my old dead friend. Did you know I got together with Tifa"? Not that even explicitly romantic Korean/Japanese fiction is very abundant with stuff like kisses anyway. They're treated more like rewards than something that the characters do all the time. Though, I don't know if this has changed in the new(er) stuff.

* I decided not to name the fandoms so they wouldn't derail the conversation, lol.

 

[Axiom]

Cloud calls her mum when he's floating in the white space. She jokes with Zack -- you know, who was her boyfriend -- that Cloud is too big to adopt and then walks away with the same old boyfriend.

This got a laugh outta me.

 

[Skilganon]

When Nojima statement came out I eventually amended my belief strictly from it's a love song about Cloud like Uematsu, etc is saying to it's a love song about Cloud, Zack, everyone. Of course if you get the CA date with Cloud clutching the petal to his heart it can become more Cloud aligned and even most of the dates where Aerith was in the play you can say is romantic for CA if that is your desire. Nojima did also say it has elements of a love song, and also that there is nothing wrong with a love song. So yeah I'd say they were probably aware some would probably take it more seriously as a love song, and even some of those on staff it looked like they were, and people were free to do so.

Hollow discourse I tried to stay away from but might lean towards that one is multifaceted as well.

When you get things like the Rebirth concerts World tours repeatedly using a specific date over and over and including the Rebirth Aerith flower quest during Hollow of course some CAs are going to feel validated, some more than others, some might even add Kitase saying Aerith dying left a hole behind/Cloud losing someone he loved leaving a hole, buuut even though the concert scenes show stuff like

Spoiler

Cloud and Aerith in the flower field and at the Chocobo ranch with Chloe.

So SE themselves treat Hollow like a CA focused song. They don't seem that concerned about people getting the "right" idea about it, as far as this forum is concerned. And the presentation of the dates seems lop-sided as well... I wonder why that is.

And I understand there is a separation between development and marketing and their goals do not always align. I feel its a mixed message regardless. Development should have more control over the messaging of the brand, but maybe that's too much responsibility.

Whatever "wrong" ideas you think a CA shipper may have, I look at it as a product of SE's messaging first and foremost.

When you tell someone to "Be okay with your fanon", I can't help but feel a little condescension. Every shipper wants validation in the work. Those with validation will always be seen as "more correct". Therefore I see SE's messaging as deliberately setting people up for disappointment.

 

[Eerie]

Like SE does absolutely NOT treat Hollow as CA wtf, this is not what she was saying at all?

 

[MelodicEnigma]

So SE themselves treat Hollow like a CA focused song. They don't seem that concerned about people getting the "right" idea about it, as far as this forum is concerned. And the presentation of the dates seems lop-sided as well... I wonder why that is.

I think that's just a mix up of title—Maiden was talking about NPTK in that first paragraph, not Hollow. With that being said, let's propose this is the message:

"NPTK is a love song for Aerith and Cloud and they'll be together"—this was some people's conclusion after the Theme Song trailer. A fan could lock themselves to this conclusion in all it's blatant, narrow glory, even after Nojima says: "This song represents Aerith's feelings, but I made sure it didn't sound like she was singing about Cloud or Zack, or anyone specific.", is utilized within all dates focusing on other characters, and is featured in the ending that focuses on the group grieving her death. All of these things are thus seen as SE doing "false advertising" because the initial message was "loud and clear".

But that "initial" message—how was this delivered, exactly? If I was questioning this, for example: "Well why would the Theme Song trailer feature Aerith's Date then?!". Is this not answered by the literal title itself with the knowledge Aerith is literally singing it in-game and it's there to thematically represent her as a character? Because what're we doing—a mindset of "they can't present this trailer because people will think they're canon" is just plain silly. This is just LITERALLY the story and didn't present it logically in contrast to that. If a random bloke watched that trailer and went "oh this game must include something romance between the blonde guy and the girl"—so? They're inquiry isn't THAT far off from the product, and could just be seen as true in a sense because of the storytelling. But a CA fan of 20+ years? They're either simply happy they got "fed" with a sneak peak of a scene they already knew would be in the game, or, they're the type of fan who would take the idea of this being shown without a this is one of many dates as implicative proof that SE is saying they're the "canon couple".

This is the problem, though. As it connects to this:

When you tell someone to "Be okay with your fanon", I can't help but feel a little condescension. Every shipper wants validation in the work. Those with validation will always be seen as "more correct". Therefore I see SE's messaging as deliberately setting people up for disappointment.

Cause this is my point—there's a fundamental difference between the two types of fans above and how they interact with content. I don't know about being seen as "more correct", but they themselves will certainly feel like they are no matter what because that's how that level of internalized validation and confirmation bias works. "CA is canon, therefore this is what SE is telling us, why else would they show scenes for the CA date"—how is this not understood as mostly the byproduct of the mental work of a dedicated fan? It is simply TOO FAR for what actually exists and thus what can be counted as wrongdoing by SE. As much as there can be a study on the effect presentation has on interpretation, I feel like there can still be some established lines drawn of what is considered reasonable thought processes.

A fan's disappointment for an expectation they set themselves up for that goes WAY beyond what was presented is not on the writer. Romantic storytelling utilized between Cloud and Aerith exists, is meant to exist, and should be able to be presented without a they won't end up together signal. And to be fair, there has been PLENTY of other things shown that would make someone inquire about both Tifa and Zack respectively for CA, to the point some official social media posts are pretty blunt (especially CT), and these posts' existence wouldn't make sense if SE were trying to make people believe "Cloud and Aerith is the canon couple" with advertising alone.

 

[Skilganon]

Let me ask a question: Why do you think the devs decided to put the Cloud and Aerith moments in the credits?

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Let me ask a question: Why do you think the devs decided to put the Cloud and Aerith moments in the credits?

As in "the CA moments", you mean specifically why did they use Cloud and Aerith's version of the play? Or, literally any scenes featuring the two characters?

Because it's in the game—with the addendum of putting extra weight on Aerith, who just died and was a focal point of the game. An answer of "because SE wants us to believe they're canon" is something that goes beyond what we're talking about. (which no joke, is a whole other conversation about how fans interact with epitext and concepts of canon)

 

[pxl_pushr]

Let me ask a question: Why do you think the devs decided to put the Cloud and Aerith moments in the credits?

Because this game marks the end of Aerith as “the flower girl from Sector 5”. It’s the same reason why she gets a musical number and she’s the last character on screen as the Tiny Bronco flies away: she embodies the more lighthearted segment of the story and her tragic death brings it to an abrupt end.

It’s a goodbye, same as an “in memory” segment for an award show for example

 

[null]

They put the entire game in those credits. There were a gazillion scenes in there covering every part of the game. Anyone who thinks Aerith was given more emphasis than she already had in the game is tunneling on her like crazy.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

They put the entire game in those credits. There were a gazillion scenes in there covering every part of the game. Anyone who thinks Aerith was given more emphasis than she already had in the game is tunneling on her like crazy.

Thus the confirmation bias. Because they chose HER version of the play, but for some people, there is no explanation outside of making both the relationship of Cloud and Aerith and that of the continuity of her Gold Saucer event canonical. There's issues to be discussed with both of these conclusions, even when treated separately.