SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Or that you’re somehow owed the story they fooled you into thinking it was: a sequel retelling where a certain character WILL live and alter the whole course of the story you wanted remade.
Before Remake, on this very same forum, people said "be careful, Aerith's going to die again but they're going to make you hope you can save her this time" and right after Remake people were arguing we would save Aerith.

I argued again and again that she would die. I want to explain it but from a writing perspective, her fate lies in the Lifestream, always has. She literally has nothing to do in the living world past her death; because then we focus on getting back real Cloud (and that's Tifa's job, you can't give it to Aerith) and getting rid of Weapons, Sephiroth, Wutai plot (which is Yuffie's).

Thematically, they'd also need someone to die to encompass the death theme and... her death was written all over Remake - no I'm not talking about the visions, I'm saying by how they treated her and how you look at her Remake themes, her being linked to death was quite obvious.

The fact that people fell for it is well done from the devs, but it was easy to analyse what you had as information and deduce that she was still going to die nonetheless. I loved Aerith in Remake, I wished she was going to live, but I knew it wasn't a possibility.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I mean, I personally like the idea that they recreated similar attempts for the game to manipulate and misdirect your expectations in ways completely unique to itself ( though the full execution has yet to be seen ).

Not everyone will appreciate it, and I can already see the angry posts and YT videos about how SE lied because the game about misinformation, mistaken identity, and subtle manipulation… manipulated them.

The look back on all this is definitely going to be entertaining, that’s for sure.

In hindsight, I don't feel like I was manipulated or misled by OG. The plot twists were walking around in broad daylight. Like Aerith going alone to an abandoned city to stop Sephiroth and "I'll come back when it's all over." Holy death flags Batman. And then Sephiroth was just chilling in the trees in Cloud's brain and he's like, yeah I heard all that. Let's go do something about her. So of course she got killed. She did something really dangerous and made it worse by telling someone she knew was compromised. Why was I ever surprised?

Because... drum roll... I was 100% sure that a mainstream game would not kill the special, last-of-her-kind, white mage, love interest, vibrantly colored flower girl. It was that simple. My own goddamn brain was doing the Jenova static when told otherwise.

I guess tropes are implicitly based on trust, because they're usually shorthand so the audience can digest the main story without getting distracted. And when they get subverted, it can feel like that trust was violated. But at the same time, whose fault is it if I'm ignoring what I'm shown, and only seeing what I expect to see? If I ended up emotionally invested, should I be angry with the writers? Or applaud them for creating characters that made me care enough to get angry? (Or in my case, applaud FFVII and then be annoyed at Advent Children for subverting my expectations of what death means?)

Anyway, yeah, I think what FFVII and Fight Club and Bioshock and (early) Game of Thrones do is generally the good kind of "manipulation", where the twist feels shocking but in reality it's just the plot chickens coming home to roost. And as you mentioned before, ReTrilogy might be setting us up for the exact same thing, in a way that will catch even wily veterans like us by surprise.

Do I think it's ok to be manipulated from outside the story itself... I don't know. Maybe in my mind there's a difference between the two. The game suggesting one thing and Kitase assuring us that it's something else rubs me the wrong way. But maybe he just said something I didn't want to hear. So yeah, there's some hypocrisy on my part there. Subvert my expectations, but only when I'm expecting it.
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
In hindsight, I don't feel like I was manipulated or misled by OG. The plot twists were walking around in broad daylight. Like Aerith going alone to an abandoned city to stop Sephiroth and "I'll come back when it's all over." Holy death flags Batman. And then Sephiroth was just chilling in the trees in Cloud's brain and he's like, yeah I heard all that. Let's go do something about her. So of course she got killed. She did something really dangerous and made it worse by telling someone she knew was compromised. Why was I ever surprised?

Because... drum roll... I was 100% sure that a mainstream game would not kill the special, last-of-her-kind, white mage, love interest, vibrantly colored flower girl. It was that simple. My own goddamn brain was doing the Jenova static when told otherwise.

I guess tropes are implicitly based on trust, because they're usually shorthand so the audience can digest the main story without getting distracted. And when they get subverted, it can feel like that trust was violated. But at the same time, whose fault is it if I'm ignoring what I'm shown, and only seeing what I expect to see? If I ended up emotionally invested, should I be angry with the writers? Or applaud them for creating characters that made me care enough to get angry? (Or in my case, applaud FFVII and then be annoyed at Advent Children for subverting my expectations of what death means?)

Anyway, yeah, I think what FFVII and Fight Club and Bioshock and (early) Game of Thrones do is generally the good kind of "manipulation", where the twist feels shocking but in reality it's just the plot chickens coming home to roost. And as you mentioned before, ReTrilogy might be setting us up for the exact same thing, in a way that will catch even wily veterans like us by surprise.

Do I think it's ok to be manipulated from outside the story itself... I don't know. Maybe in my mind there's a difference between the two. The game suggesting one thing and Kitase assuring us that it's something else rubs me the wrong way. But maybe he just said something I didn't want to hear. So yeah, there's some hypocrisy on my part there. Subvert my expectations, but only when I'm expecting it.
By the time you’re hitting up Temple of the Ancients in OG, I think the game banks on you suspecting something is going to happen to Aerith, and then the death flags go off repeatedly.

Similarly though, in ReTrilogy I do think they’re also banking on fans hyper-focusing on Aerith’s death and sneaking lore and plot points right under people’s noses because they know that’s what people will do.

Then I hesitate to give SE that much credit. Certainly people aren’t that predictable… but then I see the cycles people loop through on Twitter and think maybe people are that predictable?
 

Skilganon

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Tim
Think of it from a logical perspective. If I was the leader of a massive game company currently remaking one of my most popular titles, would I:

1. Change the protagonists end-game ship, or

2. Portray the end-game ship in a more positive light. (<-----)

I think it's clear which one makes more sense. We can see this in the Remake series. The idea of Remaking FFVII just so that C and A can be together at the end is just such a bizarre expectation. Millions of fans would immediately lose trust in SE. To say nothing of the concrete story details.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think Aerith surviving the story not only changes the themes that are pretty much the core of what FFVII is but it also derails basically everything that happens in the second half of the story.

At that point, it would just be an entirely new/different game. But I suppose that's what some people wanted.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Think of it from a logical perspective. If I was the leader of a massive game company currently remaking one of my most popular titles, would I:

1. Change the protagonists end-game ship, or

2. Portray the end-game ship in a more positive light. (<-----)

I think it's clear which one makes more sense. We can see this in the Remake series. The idea of Remaking FFVII just so that C and A can be together at the end is just such a bizarre expectation. Millions of fans would immediately lose trust in SE. To say nothing of the concrete story details.
This is not a logical perspective.

They're just redoing the OG with new tropes. It's not about pushing CT in a "more positive light" because CT has always been great, to such an extent even with just the OG they made it to my very short OTP list. But they changed how they storytelled FFVII, and decided to not rely on the surprise of finding the truth but rather make a cohesive story where you can finally understand better everyone's motivations. As I always said, in the OG, the only way to understand why Tifa would choose to stay by Cloud's side in Mideel is to follow the Tifa route, except the game kind of tricks you into following the Aerith route, which makes Tifa's choice rather out of there - and that's without getting into the mistranslation that happens at this point.

So how come after all these years, with everything that SE said to support CT, are we still stuck here, with CT being the most controversial canon FF ship? Well, there are several things that led us to where we are:
1. Translations in the OG:

No matter what, it all starts here with a lot of Tifa or CT lines being mistranslated and giving infamously the bad idea to people. It didn't prevent Tifa from becoming super popular, but it took a while I think in the West, compared to Japan where she took off immediately (proof is they added the train station scene because of this according to the devs... scene that was mistranslated BTW).

2. AC + early CoT:

AC was a botch from the devs; they were young and learning a lot but story-wise and character-wise and writing-wise it was a terrible idea. So bad that they had to make ACC a few years later to dispel bad ideas, but it was too late: a lot of people had seen AC, but weren't aware of ACC because they weren't in fandom. It left their perception shafted. As for OtWtaS, including and especially CoT, those were the first novellas Nojima ever wrote, and it shows. CoT missed by a mile showing CT as a couple, seriously, and even its updated version still is poor, compared to TKaA's ending, where they show up for like, a page.

3. Misperceptions and misconceptions:

That one has been talked about recently by one of the devs, and it's really interesting because I had the same conclusion: a lot of fans did not understand FFVII, its story, characters or themes at all. Some of them played once when young, so of course they weren't able to grasp what the game was telling them. Then you have adults who also only played once more than two decades ago and rely on bad memories. The game surely made an impact, but at what price?

It doesn't help that the game sells the player a sweet honey trap, aka Aerith and CA. It was so strong that it did lead people to believe that Cloud loved her and not Tifa, or that he would be with her if she hadn't died, etc. CA is part of the illusion, and personally until the LS scene, I was thinking we'd get Cloud talking about her past his speech... but no. Many actually missed that Cloud, if in love with Aerith, should've voiced it somehow, but instead he went to Tifa to tell her that only her opinions, which was the breaking of the illusion.

4. CAs:

Of course, but I would say they are mostly "in their role", aka they're the ones who don't/can't let go of the idea of being canon (because that's what we're talking about; I don't care if people ship CA, I care if they pretend it's canon). The problem I have of course is the lies, the mistranslations, the perpetual moving goals that really make me raise an eyebrow.

5. Non-shippers:

Basically, this is probably one of the worst part: they perpetuate two myths:
  • Cloud loved both girls
  • Cloud would have chosen Aerith had she lived
I already talked about the latter, but the ones who say Cloud loved both girls clearly haven't thought this through, what it truly means for Tifa; if Cloud loved both girls, there would be no need for a Tifa. If he loved both girls, it would be very insulting for Tifa, and I don't think that's the devs' plan.

6. Theorybros:

It is especially annoying because those guys are supposed to understand Tifa's role and to some extent, they DO. But they don't think of her as an heroine at all, Aerith is their favourite and they do not understand the Lifestream scene nor what it truly means. They do get that Tifa is the lover, but to them that's all she is; they can't fathom that her role is what it is, as they try to give it to Aerith at every turn - which shows that Aerith is the only one they consider as the only heroine, and by that, why is it that such an important role isn't tied to her? So they only look at Aerith and ignore Tifa, because the former is the Cetra, the last of her kind, so much wasted potential while the latter is just a normal human. It's sad but it's the truth, and they propagate these kind of ideas through their videos, by saying how Aerith is totally going to be in the LS, her death will be shown there etc. Like dudes, you are just showing me how inept you are at theorycrafting, but a good chunk of the fandom eats their words as if that was the truth.

So a mix of all these things really sent bad signals from SE and the fandom both. Because of Aerith's importance to FFVII, people thought that surely she was the lover and it stayed that way. The fact that SE has dispelled this notion but people still hang onto it though? It's MADNESS. And as Ryu said, it's not on SE anymore, as they have pushed CT as the canon pairing for over 15 years now.
 
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Skilganon

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Tim
@Eerie I mean, they decided to completely change C and T's relationship at he beginning of Remake. These two didn't flirt like that in the OG. They also kiss on the skywheel. And also a lot of other moments where Tifa falls down and Cloud catches her and they look into each other's eyes. So yeah, I would say the writers are making the CT relationship more clear. They are setting up for a relationship that looks more mutually fulfilling, and they are doing it in the games, not in novels or spinoffs or movies. It just wonder why it took them such a long time to do this.

It also annoys me when people claim "Cloud loves both". It sounds diplomatic but really undermines Cloud and Tifa's character arcs. Ditto for people saying "SE picking a ship would be too divisive". They already did.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Having seen a certain dev post CA date then like a post of comments including great couple, best pair, the hashtag clerith etc, about how iconic and great Cloud and Aerith were together, then post the CT date, I'm convinced in some ways the devs just don't want people to feel left out.
 
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Skilganon

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Tim
It'll be more difficult for the devs to "not leave everyone out" if part 3 follows the OG story. It's going to make a lot of those tweets look strange in retrospect.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Having seen a certain dev post CA date then like a post of comments including great couple, best pair, the hashtag clerith etc, about how iconic and great Cloud and Aerith were together, then post the CT date, I'm convinced in some ways the devs just don't want people to feel left out.
Hamaguchi is doing a lot of PR. I personally think he’s the one they sent to try to understand what fans thought lol. He’s an Aerith fan but also an FFVII fan, and understands really well the story as a developer. As for Nojima, I think he’s only liked CT tweets, but his likes feel very full of intent.

I do think they wanted CAs to be happy with this part, because it was Aerith’s game so to speak; but CAs don’t seem to realise that despite that they still told a CT love story and p3 is still going to be Tifa’s game. And ZA is still brewing too: p3 is going to be the CT and ZA resolutions, CA has already had it in Rebirth.
 

Reaper3Delta

Pro Adventurer
Business is business. Video games are business. Business=Money. They are engaging all sides as a whole for business purposes. FF7 is very good business.
 
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Skilganon

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Tim
I find it morbidly ironic that SE has this ad campaign, "Seize the awkward" about raising awareness of mental illness, yet if you look at FF7 related material on Twitter or the like, you'll find the LTD leeches into many conversations and doesn't bring out the best in people.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
@Eerie to your Ever Crisis point - I think Tifa would make a great Celes. Not quite as straightforward as Aerith->Terra, but they both have that "good person caught up in bad things because plot" vibe. I don't mind if Tifa uses a sword, but I think the yellow Amano outfit is a must (as opposed to the green leotard).

Posting here for the obvious: given that Celes is such an obvious omission, I wonder if they thought it would be controversial to have Tifa play her.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Eh they could have went with gender swapped Cloud for Celes and left Locke out idk.

If the intention was to avoid controversy I think that kind of backfired given the uproar to the extent someone was telling the official Ever Crisis account to kill themselves.

I wouldn't have minded Terra, Celes, or Relm for Aerith. Never used to be big on Celes but now I'm like ice and opera count me in. Would have adored Mog fit for anyone too.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Sephiroth should have been Celes.
Terra and Aerith is obvious.
Tifa lining up with VI's monk also makes perfect sense to me. They even both have "suplexing way oversized things" moves. And I think she looks great.
VI doesn't have a clear corrollary to Cloud, Celes is probably the closest, but I think she fits Sephiroth better.

Edgar-Sephiroth doesn't really make any sense. While Cid is of course the first thought with the machinist angle, I think Barret would have gone with Edgar well, too. With the gun and "leading resistance faction" elements. Of course they never do anything for Barret despite him being the best character in the remake project so far. (He should have had a Steiner outfit, too).

As I said in the other thread, Shadow-Yuffie with Interceptor-Sonon would have been glorious.

Also we could have had a nightmare-fuel shaved Red-Gau :monster:
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Only Tifa was given a role that sticks to their classes, ONLY HER. Think about the disrespect there. I thought for sure they chose FFVI because they can show off BOTH Aerith (who as Terra was evident for me) AND Tifa. To me, this is NOT a ship question, I think to every Tifa fan this is not a ship question, it's a respect question. I will never see Tifa as Jill, this role will be given to Aerith if there is ever an FFXVI crossover. Garnet was an hommage to Tifa and was given to Aerith. Yuna? Lol it's Aerith, etc etc. It was the only instance where I could have had Tifa as an FF heroine, everyone knows this.

But no they gave a half arsed outfit to Tifa. That doesn't even LOOK LIKE A MONK OUTFIT. And they gave it clownish colours instead of blue and white from the main game (when everyone has main game 1:1 outfits).

You know what it's an average outfit. It's not a "bad outfit". What makes it BAD is that it's supposed to be for an FF crossover. It doesn't have an FFVI style, it's just a normal every day outfit. You could buy this online on Amazon, a blue top, a yellow cargo and green baskets. That's HOW BAD IT IS.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
It is extremely clearly based on Sabin's concept art. So Sabin doesn't wear a monk's outfit?
1730138406164.png
Only Tifa was given a role that sticks to their classes, ONLY HER. Think about the disrespect there.

I fail to see any way in which this constitutes disrespect. She is FF7's resident monk class. And indeed is one of only a few characters in VII whose job class is abundantly clear, along with Yuffie and Cid.
Aside from being a woman, I don't see what similarities she even has with Celes. As I say, Celes has much more in common with Sephiroth and Cloud than Tifa.

I agree that a Yuna crossover would probably go to Aerith, but I don't think you're right about Jill. Tifa has way more in common with her with being a childhood friend and more of a fighter rather than a mage.

You don't have to like the outfit, obviously, but I don't understand the reading of disrespect. If anyone was 'disrespected,' it was Celes for being left out. (Oh, and Barret, for being ignored again.)
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
It is extremely clearly based on Sabin's concept art. So Sabin doesn't wear a monk's outfit?
She. Is. Not. Wearing. Those. Pants. I don't know how to explain it to you but she is wearing CARGO PANTS. She does have a skin with monk-style pants, these have been shown in the Zangan style outfit for her that her fans actually love and want to get. Instead they give us CARGO PANTS. THIS IS NOT A MONK OUTFIT, I REPEAT MYSELF, and certainly NOT FFVI-styled. Amano would never have dared.
Aside from being a woman, I don't see what similarities she even has with Celes. As I say, Celes has much more in common with Sephiroth and Cloud than Tifa.
IDK stuff like, being the second heroine of a game, IDK. Promoting Tifa as an ACTUAL FFVII HEROINE you know, the kind of stuff they do not do.
I agree that a Yuna crossover would probably go to Aerith, but I don't think you're right about Jill. Tifa has way more in common with her with being a childhood friend and a fighter rather than a mage.
Nah. They don't consider Tifa as a heroine, I think it's rather clear that 100% of the heroines outfits are going to Aerith. The fact that Tifa is the only one who has to stick to her class is very infuriating AND disrespectful to her role in FFVII.

I am exhausted to have to fight so that fans consider her as a heroine, but when SE does things like that, it's even more infuriating. And lol I see that the marketing FFVII team is trying to extinguish the fire, but the day they'll consider Tifa as anything else than cashcow, we'll talk.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
So to add onto this why would they chose concept ART???? the actual skin looks nothing like that or any sabin skin except for a trading card, and even then they didn't add the details of sabin. If you honestly didn't know that there was an FF6 collab and you got shown Tifa's skin. Would you think Sabin? or do you not see the cargo pants that are more orangey tbh with a black pouch and light blue tank top? They didn't even give her Sabins pointed shoes????? no green parts either

Why is it every other character got a skin that actually represents the FF6 character while Tifa got a weird fusion of modern and fantasy monk thats half assed to put it politely. She looks like a construction worker Lara croft not a monk? and the only character who must be in their class so for every single collab no need to guess who tifa will be and how uncreative the costume will be. Zell she will have blue jeans and a tank top. When she should have Rinoa but can't wait to see them attempt to make Aerith look like Rinoa

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null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
My bad, I was trying not to derail the EC thread with my comment. I didn’t mean to throw an off-topic grenade in the LTD’s toilet instead.

The crossover is fun, I like Tifa as Sabin but yeah it would have been nice if Celes and Barret were involved. Love the idea of Red as a well-spoken Gau :awesome:
 

Skilganon

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Tim
I'm more upset that Cloud doesn't have a Celes outfit. Locke doesn't suit him at all, he's a thief and very outgoing. Cloud and Celes have very similar backstories. If they keep giving men's outfits to women, why not the reverse? The cowards. He would have looked great in Celes' OG outfit with the weird shoulder plates and cape.

People said Lightning was a "female Cloud". Wrong. Cloud was a male Celes.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Sephiroth should have been Celes.
I say he should have been Kefka, but they're using Kefka in the event. Cloud works for Celes in terms of role more than Locke, but in terms of attitude, he's Shadow.

Terra and Aerith is obvious.
Tifa lining up with VI's monk also makes perfect sense to me. They even both have "suplexing way oversized things" moves. And I think she looks great.
VI doesn't have a clear corrollary to Cloud, Celes is probably the closest, but I think she fits Sephiroth better.

I think they phoned the outfit in, personally. It's extremely basic and lacks a lot of his additional touches.

Edgar-Sephiroth doesn't really make any sense. While Cid is of course the first thought with the machinist angle, I think Barret would have gone with Edgar well, too. With the gun and "leading resistance faction" elements. Of course they never do anything for Barret despite him being the best character in the remake project so far. (He should have had a Steiner outfit, too).

More love for Barret, agreed.

As I said in the other thread, Shadow-Yuffie with Interceptor-Sonon would have been glorious.
Nah, make her Relm. Maybe still with interceptor Sonon.

And make Vincent Strago.

Cait Sith can be Setzer with his moogle getting an Umaro look.

Red can be Gogo. Zack is Gau.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think you are overestimating just how much the EC team is ready to work on their events. Barret will never get a limited banner either, he's already got like 2 outfits? It's a real shame IMHO. He's one of the most beloved characters and he's the one with the less outfits, I'm really miffed personally.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I think you are overestimating just how much the EC team is ready to work on their events. Barret will never get a limited banner either, he's already got like 2 outfits? It's a real shame IMHO. He's one of the most beloved characters and he's the one with the less outfits, I'm really miffed personally.
I have zero expectation that any of my suggestions would be implemented, I just know they're good ones.
 
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