SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

Oh and just to clarify I wasn't saying the CA art at the MET "confirms" anything. Just it's nice to see CA in the public consciousness and SE putting CA on blast like that.

Also wholesome seeing the museum and their staff getting the awareness of their art projects in general like that. I thought it was a cool thing to do for the museum to run things so their staff could also make arts and them display the staff art.

In the case of the CA art, turns out the artist didn't have a social media presence previously but created an account to thank people (including the SE account) for spreading awareness of their art and the museum project.

Honestly you don't need to worry, being at the MET is a huge honour, there was no way SE would pass that. And I can imagine how thrilled the artist can feel, so good for her!

 

[Eerie]

Well, double post since Hamaguchi seems to be giving various interviews. You can find this one here at IGN JP, and, translation thanks to DeepL:

浜口氏はキスシーンを取り入れた理由について聞かれ、実は特別な意図があったことを明かした。


「1作目『ファイナルファンタジーVII リメイク』にもクラウドがティファを抱きしめるシーンがありました。『ファイナルファンタジーVII リバース』ではクラウドに成長してほしいと思ったので、1作目ですでに抱きしめていれば、2作目ではそれ以上を求めた方がいいということで取り入れました」


キスシーンは単なるファンサービスではなく、クラウドの成長を描くために導入された側面が強いということになるだろう。シーンを見れば、キスはティファからではなくクラウドが先手をとっていることがわかる。


浜口氏自身は1997年に発売された原作『ファイナルファンタジーVII』をいちプレイヤーとして遊び、多大な影響を受けた。開発チームはこのように、『ファイナルファンタジーVII』で育った世代のメンバーが多いという。原作への思い入れと深い理解もあって、このようなシーンが誕生したのだろう。

Which translates to:

When asked about the reason for incorporating the kissing scene, Hamaguchi revealed that he actually had a special intention.

'In the first Final Fantasy VII Remake, there was a scene where Cloud hugs Tifa. In Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, I wanted Cloud to grow up, so I incorporated it because if he had already hugged her in the first film, he should want more in the second film.’

This would mean that the kissing scene was not just fanservice, but a strong aspect introduced to portray Cloud's growth. The scene shows that the kiss is not initiated by Tifa, but by Cloud.

Hamaguchi himself played the original Final Fantasy VII, released in 1997, as a player and was heavily influenced by it. As such, many members of the development team are from the generation that grew up with Final Fantasy VII. It is likely that this scene was created due in part to their deep understanding of and attachment to the original work.

Well today should be funny to watch, he went and just fired all ammos at all the bad faith arguments lol. I quite enjoy that this vision basically says that if we want to see Cloud's growth, we should go the CT path xD

Edit: I found the original interview here at Gamewatch

――作中のゴンドラデートにおいて、ティファとのキスシーンが描かれました。これは初代「FF7」発売から27年間ではじめてのことであり、ファンに大きな衝撃を与えました。どのような意図でこのキスシーンを実装したのでしょうか？

浜口氏：すごいマニアックな質問ですね（笑）。そうですね、実は明確な意図がありまして、1作目（リメイク）でも最後の新羅ビルに向かうところの分岐のイベントのシーンのときに、クラウドがティファを抱きしめるシーンがあったんですね。で、リメイクからリバースへ繋がったときに、クラウドもやっぱり成長していってほしいというのがありまして、1作目で抱きしめたのであれば、2作目ではそれ以上を求めたほうがいいんじゃないかというのがチーム中で話になったので、その中であのような表現になったというのがあります。

-A kissing scene with Tifa was depicted during a gondola date in the film. This was the first time this had happened in the 27 years since the original FF7 was released, and it was a big shock to fans. What was your intention in implementing this kiss scene?

Hamaguchi: That's an incredibly maniacal question (laughs). Yes, actually, we had a clear intention. In the first game (remake), there was a scene in which Cloud hugged Tifa during the branching event scene at the end when they were heading to the Shinra Building. When we connected the Remake to the Rebirth, we wanted Cloud to grow as well, and the team thought that if he hugged her in the first game, we should ask for more than that in the second game. I think that's how we came up with that expression.

Am I the only one who feels that when he asked for a CT hug in Remake, Nojima perfectly knew they had to go up which meant a kiss in the GS date? Because hell, if after seeing it I felt that way, it certainly didn't escape a professional writer.

Which also makes me connect Aerith's resolution and her GS date which are both about the illusion, her falling for Cloud who is playing Zack... And Aerith wishing to not fall for him. I think it may be CoLW Aerith there too, thinking about it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It has been hilarious seeing the react to this interview dropping in real time and the copes adjusting in real time. Apparently the current cope is that the kiss is just a branch event and not the main narrative (Ignore Gongaga please), despite, you know, all the dates existing to show the development of Cloud's relationships, and that they are all true to his character such that which one happened in continuity is actually irrelevant.

EDIT TO ADD: And apparently calling it a branch is based on Hamguchi talking about the resolution scene branches from Remake, which A: are all branch events and B: all happened in continuity.

 

[lyingbanana]

When I still had a twitter accound I heard so many times "well in MY playthrough that didnt happen." Im so glad we are moving away from the ambiguity without dumbing down anything and with statements such as "they had clear intention" to show the progression to his feelings, just reaffirms that no matter each individual playthrough the story is the story.

This also means we can expect more progression in the next installment, under the Highwind will be amazing.

 

[Skilganon]

I find the use of the term 'Fan Service' interesting in the context of the LTD. CAs will often call the CT kiss fan service, followed by "disconnected from the story". Of course, fan service can be very connected to the story.

For example, Cloud and Zack teaming up at the end of Rebirth to fight Sephiroth is undoubtedly fan service, but no one says it's disconnected from the story, because neither of these characters are involved in a bitter love rivalry.

To say that Cloud kissing Tifa, the woman he's had a crush on since childhood, who would eventually help restore his memories, who he spends the night with before the final battle, who he will live with after the events of FFVII, is "disconnected from the story" is willful rejection of the story. I think some cleriths need to say this because the kiss re-contextualizes everything else between Cloud and TIfa that has come before. No one can say their relationship is strictly platonic now.

So the kiss is definitely fan service, AND connected to the story.

 

[Eerie]

The fanservice term is used by IGN's writer, it's not in Hamaguchi's comment; and we know they also wanted to please fans with the kiss they have imagined for a long time so there is definitely both an element of fanservice and story/character development.

The fact is that both Tifa's resolution and her GS date are about Cloud's own personal development, him learning how to console Tifa even while fumbling growing into the desire to kiss her, it is really really nice I feel.

 

[null]

The hug… led up to the kiss? The kiss… is Cloud wanting more of what he got from the hug?

You mean… all those confident sounding randos who spent the last few years explaining how Cloud holding Tifa tightly isn’t romantic were misunderstanding a very straightforward scene? Gasp.

 

[Skilganon]

The way the devs often talk about the CT kiss is telling: "We know fans have been waiting for a long time."

This is not something they would say if Tifa was just a side character or if the romance was optional. This line indicates that the devs themselves have thought about it. They've wanted to show/depict a CT kiss for a long time.

 

[null]

It has been hilarious seeing the react to this interview dropping in real time and the copes adjusting in real time. Apparently the current cope is that the kiss is just a branch event and not the main narrative (Ignore Gongaga please), despite, you know, all the dates existing to show the development of Cloud's relationships, and that they are all true to his character such that which one happened in continuity is actually irrelevant.

EDIT TO ADD: And apparently calling it a branch is based on Hamguchi talking about the resolution scene branches from Remake, which A: are all branch events and B: all happened in continuity.

My favorite cope of the day: since hugs lead to kisses, Hamaguchi is really saying Aerith will get a kiss in part 3.

 

[Hellenic]

My favorite cope of the day: since hugs lead to kisses, Hamaguchi is really saying Aerith will get a kiss in part 3.

Yeah i don't know how they came to the conclusion that Cloud having these growth build ups between the games with Tifa will somehow lead to a kiss with a dead Aerith.

At this point these people are just spouting whatever nonsense couse they can't deal with the truth and i'm just too tired of it at this point. I just want the next game to come out already so the rest of these dumbasses can just leave the fandom.

 

[Ryeleigh]

My favorite cope of the day: since hugs lead to kisses, Hamaguchi is really saying Aerith will get a kiss in part 3.

I'm sure Aerith will get a kiss. With Zack.

But more seriously, I'm really looking forward to their reunion. I want it already, lol.

 

[Nancy]

My favorite cope of the day: since hugs lead to kisses, Hamaguchi is really saying Aerith will get a kiss in part 3.

Like I mention/said before, if Hamaguchi decided to give Cloud and Aerith a kiss in part 3 it will be Aerith kissing Cloud on the cheek goodbye

 

[null]

Yeah i don't know how they came to the conclusion that Cloud having these growth build ups between the games with Tifa will somehow lead to a kiss with a dead Aerith.

At this point these people are just spouting whatever nonsense couse they can't deal with the truth and i'm just too tired of it at this point. I just want the next game to come out already so the rest of these dumbasses can just leave the fandom.

Meanwhile in the My Hero Academia fandom: OH MAH GAAAWD FINAL CHAPTER NOT CANON BECAUSE REASONS!!!! Sorry, anyone who didn’t see that ending coming was too busy swimming in a river in Egypt for the last 10 years.

We need a better word for delusional single-issue voting fans than ”shippers”. Normal people who like Cloud and Aerith together are shippers. They’re not the problem.

I'm sure Aerith will get a kiss. With Zack.

But more seriously, I'm really looking forward to their reunion. I want it already, lol

No joke, I’m really starting to drink the kool aid. They’re not going to leave Aerith fans without a present under the tree.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah as time passed, I also went to "there is probably going to be a ZA kiss", a bit ironically because of a comment made by Maiden who said something along the lines that it was unfair that only Tifa got kissed and she wanted Aerith to get a kiss too. Add that to Toriyama I think commenting on how they knew fans wanted for the longest time a kiss (between Cloud and Tifa), it made me think that yeah, they're not going to leave Aerith in the dust and she'll get her kiss with Zack.

They also hyped up their reunion like woah since Remake and through Rebirth, so I think it HAS to be good and thus we'll get their kiss there. In the church, where Zack was sitting last, finally defeated.

 

[lyingbanana]

Normal people who like Cloud and Aerith together are shippers. They’re not the problem.

Yeah thats why I find it difficult to use the term "cleriths" when talking about some of the stuff the most extreme part of that fandom spew because I ran into the same issue.

 

[Skilganon]

I think a ZA kiss would be more demoralizing to the hardcore CAs than the CT kiss. From what I read, a lot of them are disappointed, but think that SE is trying to "be equal" between the two love interests, that both Aerith and Tifa get their moments. A ZA kiss would blow that concept out of the water.

Also, a lot of CAs seem to view Zack as an inferior copy of Cloud (ironic, I know), and would feel downright insulted by a ZA kiss. Like they were being thrown a bone. I believe there was a Valentine's Day post made by SE a few years back when CC Reunion was released and it was met by widespread scorn by CA shippers. The response was overwhelmingly negative.

I don't think we are prepared for what will happen if Zack and Aerith kiss in some kind of afterlife world. Brianna White is probably going to lose a LOT of subs to her twitch.

 

[eleamaya]

Talking about how Cleriths would response if Zerith was endgame, this is a good thread in Twitter.
x.com
Though, why @Ryushikaze replied here lol, you're not the target of the OP

 

[null]

I can't see Twitter replies anymore. Any highlights?

If SE was really worried about upsetting Aerith fans, they would have given her an optional kiss while she was alive. That was their golden opportunity to shut everyone up. Tifa fans wouldn't complain because they got theirs and they know what's coming next. But Aerith didn't get a kiss at all, even though player choice factored into both her major dates, and that was her own decision as much as Cloud's.

The hardcore fans should already be losing their shit over the unequal treatment in Rebirth, and they would be, except they're somehow convinced a Cloud kiss is absolutely, positively coming to even the score. But they just kicked the riot down the road a few years. Aerith already said goodbye. She's not available for Cloud to kiss anymore. All that awaits in part three is an empty airship and the moonlit field next to it.

And maybe a rendezvous with Zack down in the sparkly stuff. Or: how we all learned to stop worrying and Embrace Our Dreams.

 

[Xannis]

I can't see Twitter replies anymore. Any highlights?

Mostly what you would expect and totally what I expect if they go this route. There are a few (very few) "I'd be fine with it". Bulk of them, however, are basically saying there hasn't been enough build up/narrative support for ZA. Which of course I shake my head at. I can get if you don't like ZA. I can get the "chemistry" arguments around ships. I can get behind being disappointed that the ship you wanted didn't win. I can get behind almost any argument other than "There wasn't any build up or writing for ZA". I think if you take that position accounting for Crisis Core + Re-Trilogy you're not being honest about it. Or you've just got your goggles on.

Romances have started from far less build up than ZA have so claiming there isn't a base there is just wild to me.

I mean heck...the only reason I can come up with that they've added so much Zack to Re-Trilogy in the first place is specifically to make it make sense when they (ZA) re-unite. I suspect most of the scenes they added for Zack were trying to proactively address that very complaint.

Edit: Funny though I did catch one Clerith in that thread that said they'd be ok with ZA but only if Cloud and Tifa didn't end up together. WTF?

 

[Pasuwado]

''There was no buildup or writing for ZA''. Honestly, that's delusional on their part.

Where does Zack end up at the end of Rebirth? The church.
Where does Zack fight Sephiroth? The church.
Who heals Zack? Aerith.
Who is Zack doing all of this for? Aerith.
Who follows the yellow flowers and is being guided through the Lifestream by Aerith? Zack.
Who does Zack promise he'll find a way for? Aerith.
We have Aerith admitting she sees Zack in Cloud.
We have Cloud remembering that Zack loves Aerith.
We have Zack in Nibelheim talking to Cloud about how much he likes Aerith.
We even have Aerith admitting she still has feelings for Zack.

And the question we need to ask for all of this is "Why?"

Why would they include all these scenes if there isn’t going to be a payoff?

If the goal is to show Aerith moving past Zack, you don’t spend your limited screen time on these moments.

All of this works to maximize the connection between Aerith and Zack, when what you’d need to do to sell Clerith is minimize it.

Oh, but why does Marlene say what she says to Zack?
Drama. Tension. To create doubt that gets resolved later in the same chapter by Aerith herself.

Not to mention, it sets up a necessary conversation between Zack and Aerith in Part 3.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Meanwhile in the My Hero Academia fandom: OH MAH GAAAWD FINAL CHAPTER NOT CANON BECAUSE REASONS!!!! Sorry, anyone who didn’t see that ending coming was too busy swimming in a river in Egypt for the last 10 years.

We need a better word for delusional single-issue voting fans than ”shippers”. Normal people who like Cloud and Aerith together are shippers. They’re not the problem.

You know, I barely read Bleach when it was running, definitely wasn't keeping up with Naruto, I only watched the first seasons of both MHA and AOT, and yet I have correctly guessed the endgame ship in every single one of them. At times I have to wonder if I'm just really good at this, or if other people are just really really bad at it.
(I also guessed the twist in Divergent from just a description of the setting, for added context)

Talking about how Cleriths would response if Zerith was endgame, this is a good thread in Twitter.
x.com
Though, why @Ryushikaze replied here lol, you're not the target of the OP

It came up in my feed and I made a prediction. And I got a response that was the perfect example of what I was saying.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Talking about how Cleriths would response if Zerith was endgame, this is a good thread in Twitter.
x.com

- pretty sure they're gonna be in denial mode ~ they are like that for 25 years now~ imagine Cloti kiss and Hamaguichi and the rest of the devs are clarifying this is a growth for Cloud and yet they still believe it was out of Jealousy ~

''There was no buildup or writing for ZA''. Honestly, that's delusional on their part.

- the Last date of Aerith is seems like she's shouting Zack's in his heart but looking at Cloud because he's the person in front of her.. and Zack literally moving to different worlds just to see her..

 

[Skilganon]

I think the mixed media style of SE storytelling has largely been a mistake. You shouldn't have to play spinoff games or read novellas to get the full context for the story. I say this having played CC and read most of the novellas.

If part 3 does have a ZA reunion, I really hope they do a good job selling it, so any romantic resolutions don't feel like they come out of nowhere.

I don't think we can expect people who are deeply invested in CA to just switch and be okay with ZA. The dynamic is different, and we have no idea how SE is going to portray it in part 3.

 

[GamerSkull]

Well, I might agree as far as novels and movies are concerned but I think Crisis Core is too important to really be ignored.

Most CA fans likely ignore it because it promotes Zerith so heavily anyway. A lot of other newcomers seem to have no issue playing Crisis Core as it’s just another entry. And let’s be real… re-releasing it in the middle of Remake and Rebirth seems quite intentional in hindsight.

Anyway, as far as Zerith’s payoff is concerned… well, I would say it’s been set up heavily so anybody who claims it came out of nowhere or there’s no build up for it… well, just hasn’t been paying attention.

 

[null]

Oh totally agree about mixed media. We shouldn’t have to read half the plot of a movie beforehand, in a book that wasn’t included with the movie, on a website that wasn't even officially translated for years. I'd rather go the David Lynch route where everything is self-contained but he refuses to talk about it. Let's just play the game instead of being a bunch of Ultimania lawyers.

Sadly mixed media seems to have been normalized in Japan for ages.