SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

This morning I saw someone still wanting to cancel their Ever Crisis subscription, they still aren't happy with Aerith's current title even though it was changed, because it's not changed in Japan, I think it's the event itself some aren't happy with, that Aerith can't have anything even remotely romantic, even in EC. This worries me that they won't be able to use either of the girls separately for Valentines events without there being some kind of noise.

What you, and all of us must understand, is that the extremely toxic people tend to flock to fandoms, and big fandoms like the FFVII one tend to attract even more of them, because by nature they will flock where the biggest numbers are.

This is why the devs will deliver for those who really care about these characters (hopefully so, and I’m not talking only about Cloud, Aerith or Tifa, but each character of the main cast at least. - looking at Cid). But they can’t prevent the toxic fans to react abnormally. We, as fans, can only hope that part 3 will make those go away. And while to me SE’s policy is clearly aimed at the FFXIV fandom, rest assured that it will be used for the FFVII fandom as well, and if it can calm them, then please be my guest.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It’s so funny to me they released an interview where they said exactly that: we’re giving you the story the best we can so you can understand it, but we can’t prevent people from interpreting it wrong lol. And this is about everyone, not only extreme CAs.

Yeah, there's just nothing that an author or creator of any kind can do about people either unintentionally or intentionally interpreting their work wrong. XD And I'd say that the creators who would be bothered or care about it probably wouldn't be particularly good creators.

I’d like to be wrong, I’d seriously like to hope that I’m wrong about this being what to expect. I don’t want more years of this nonsense.

Unfortunately, ship wars never die. Not truly. Almost any fandom that had any sort of love triangle, whether real or imagined, is still sending links and screenshots of the "other side's" takes. One advantage with a work that's already over, I think, is that once new people see that "oh, so canon ended that way", they'll either casually just ship canon or their non-canon ship of choice. Usually, new or even old people do eventually get sick of the toxic members of their ship so they'll distance themselves from them. But if that's all that that ship's online presence consists of, it might be hard to get or create fan content.

 

[GamerSkull]

The LTD will never die. Not truly.

But yes, I can see a certain percentage of CA shippers claiming that any CT romance in Part 3 is the result of harassment towards the devs.

 

[Skilganon]

This is why I genuinely recommend that you get to know what shipping and ship wars are actually like. (Also, what actual harems are like because Cloud just doesn't encourage any of the other girls or get "swept up in the mood".) To be honest and I mean no offence with this, but you seem to have this strange mindset where the extreme CA shippers are somehow helpless victims who are strung and baited along because of SE's dastardly intentions? Instead of the extreme CAs just interpreting everything through a confirmation bias, regardless of SE's intentions? People can 100% have a wrong perception of something all on their own, particularly if that perception is cultivated in echo chambers. Like, I'm not explaining this well because English isn't my first language. But just the mere existence of perception doesn't mean that anyone did anything to encourage or even create that perception. To give a rather extreme example, it's like stalkers getting a perception of reciprocity even if the victim did nothing except maybe say 'hello'.

I think it's a little bit of both. SE isn't dastardly, more like careless. And I don't think anything can be done to prevent the hardcore shippers from feeling baited in the end.

At this point, FFVII lore is like the Bible. There's enough material there, distributed over multiple decades and creators, for any number of interpretations. I've been gaming for 20+ years. I have never seen a franchise this thoroughly misunderstood, and not just about shipping. It comes up in conversations about basic characterization, the order and consequences of events. You have to acknowledge SE's hand in this confusion.

One example is Nomura's take on Cloud Strife, who is a very different character from the OG and Remake. It inspired the character in AC, but also appeared in KH as a version of Cloud who is was later declared "non-canon" from the version we see in OG. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Other examples include the Maiden Who Travels the Planet novel, which was okayed by SE, then later declared non-canon. Or the schism between AC and ACC. Which one is canon? Do you prefer Clerith or Cloti flavor? We can talk about the general consensus around AC. The thing is, I wouldn't put it past the devs for thinking, "Cloud is pining for Aerith, he is depressed because he loves her" or not, because they let people come to their own conclusions. Remember, Nomura thought the CT relationship in AC looked good, until he recieved letters from female fans.

Why should the fans care more about canonicity than the creators do? Most people on this forum seem to agree "The developers have been clear about the relationships" Have they? Most fans don't read Ultimanias. I would bet if you talked to a sample of FFVII fans, some large percentage (>50%) would probably say "It's up to the player's interpretation."

I wouldn't say the baiting is intentional. The devs try to give "moments" to each ship to placate them. This makes it appear like a dating simulator, which foils our attempts to tell people that FFVII is in fact not a dating simulator. But then here comes EC with more dates and swimsuits and semi-canon shipping moments unlocked through dialogue (in short, a dating simulator). The baiting is the result of ambivalence.

I wouldn't put it past the devs to keep things vague in the end so that FFVII can just go on forever. The creators are good at never resolving shit. If the Remake series does go the way of the OG, all those CA moments are going to seem like mere fan service, the book closing on any further developments.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Other examples include the Maiden Who Travels the Planet novel, which was okayed by SE, then later declared non-canon. Or the schism between AC and ACC. Which one is canon?

The one with "Complete" in the title. And I disagree with the idea that AC is "Clerith flavored." It's not as blatantly anti-CA as ACC is, but that's because Nomura, Nojima etc. gave certain people too much credit.

Also Maiden was a short story, not even a novella, and fully disregarded by SE in the very next games they released which revealed that Hojo never fucking entered the lifestream and by showing us Zack was entirely different than Benny's portrayal.

And even THEN, Maiden is fucking kryptonite for any actual CA reading because it tells us Aerith had no clue what Cloud was like even in death- she summons Zack- that she had no hope in helping Cloud in the lifestream because he would never let her in or listen to her, and that she recognized Cloud would be together with Tifa.

Even as far as the ZA stuff, it's out of character for them but it reads a hell of a lot like sassy flirting I've seen in other works.

 

[Skilganon]

Didn't Hojo enter the mako Internet after he died?

 

[Eerie]

@Skilganon I think you are exactly like us some 20 years ago: so focused on the LT that it's all you're seeing when most things are not about the LT. Like, I hate AC but I remember clearly @LunarTarotGirl telling me how upset she was when she watched it, because it was all CT for her. And to her, Tifa's best scene is unironically the one where she scolds Cloud, like it's literally the scene that made her change her opinion on Tifa.

If you look at scenes without context and everything, for sure it can look LT-powered. But in truth, the devs are telling a story, everything has context - whether they succeed or not in telling that story is a different thing. Very obviously I think they failed to convey what AC was about so they had to make ACC to explain better, but even like this @LunarTarotGirl got their intention the first time around.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Sorry for the format but it's easier to answer like this.

I have never seen a franchise this thoroughly misunderstood, and not just about shipping. It comes up in conversations about basic characterization, the order and consequences of events. You have to acknowledge SE's hand in this confusion.

You also need to keep in mind that many so-called fans in fandoms? Have never actually consumed the source material they are supposedly a fan (or even a critic) of. Or they consumed the source material once ten, twenty, thirty years ago and have never engaged with it since. Memories that old aren't exactly reliable. Even if a person was a hardcore fan who has consumed the source material multiple times, it still doesn't mean that they'll have a "correct" interpretation of it because interpretations are subjective and a person might not be driven by an urge for objective truth.

I would honestly give you examples of other franchises that have been thoroughly misunderstood because people have been casually exposed to them in social media and the loudest in that social media are fanon shippers. But I don't want to derail the FF7 LTD talk.

One example is Nomura's take on Cloud Strife, who is a very different character from the OG and Remake. It inspired the character in AC, but also appeared in KH as a version of Cloud who is was later declared "non-canon" from the version we see in OG.

From what I remember, AC Cloud was a result of executive meddling??

The thing is, I wouldn't put it past the devs for thinking, "Cloud is pining for Aerith, he is depressed because he loves her" or not, because they let people come to their own conclusions.

I'm... not sure what this is actually saying? xD

Also, I'm honestly kind of confused about what you're expecting or want from SE? I mean, SE as a company probably doesn't give two hoots about the LTD. The devs might but there is only so much they can do? Should they hold a very special press conference where they say without a shadow of a doubt that CT is canon and CA was never a thing? Because that just isn't going to happen and it's not going to dissuade the extreme shippers anyway? They'll just go on another conspiracy spiral?

Why should the fans care more about canonicity than the creators do?

It's arguable how much fans should care about canonicity in the first place, especially if they're creating fan content.

However, I think the bare minimum for caring about canonicity is that you (hypothetical you) have consumed it at least once and more recently than ten years ago.

Most people on this forum seem to agree "The developers have been clear about the relationships" Have they? Most fans don't read Ultimanias. I would bet if you talked to a sample of FFVII fans, some large percentage (>50%) would probably say "It's up to the player's interpretation."

OG: Cloud confessed it has always been Tifa in his most secret memories.
OG: Cloud and Tifa spent their last night on the planet together.
OG: Cloud and Tifa were implied to have had sex.

RE: Cloud kisses Tifa.
RE: Zack is back from the dead (whether he is alive or not) and his raison d'être is to reunite with Aerith who, in her own words, confessed she still loves him and saw him in Cloud.

Not exactly up to interpretation, lol.

I wouldn't say the baiting is intentional. The devs try to give "moments" to each ship to placate them. This makes it appear like a dating simulator, which foils our attempts to tell people that FFVII is in fact not a dating simulator.

If anybody has any experience with dating simulators, they would know that FF7 is a terrible dating simulation. Never mind that the player can also date Barret and Yuffie, and the rest of the gang in Re-Trilogy.

But then here comes EC with more dates and swimsuits and semi-canon shipping moments unlocked through dialogue (in short, a dating simulator).

This is second-hand information so you may do with it what you will, but Bleach (manga) also has a gacha mobile game. From what I have heard from people who actually play it, this mobile gacha game centres around Ichigo and Rukia and gives them matching skins all the time whereas Inoue, the girl Ichigo canonically married, barely gets anything.

I wouldn't put it past the devs to keep things vague in the end so that FFVII can just go on forever. The creators are good at never resolving shit. If the Remake series does go the way of the OG, all those CA moments are going to seem like mere fan service, the book closing on any further developments.

Repeat after me: Fan service is not a dirty word, lol. There is nothing wrong with fan service. It is there to make fans happy -- hence, "fan service" -- and it's rarely deeper than that. Fans used to understand this until extreme shippers started thinking these were super secret clues that totally had a bearing on where the story was headed and started demanding canon validation, harassing the creators and actors and other fans, and yelling about baiting.

Like, it honestly doesn't matter what fandom or fanon pairing it is, all the extreme shippers have the exact same behaviours and rhetoric. Which is interesting on its own because I don't think they're all the same people.

@Skilganon I think you are exactly like us some 20 years ago: so focused on the LT that it's all you're seeing when most things are not about the LT. Like, I hate AC but I remember clearly @LunarTarotGirl telling me how upset she was when she watched it, because it was all CT for her. And to her, Tifa's best scene is unironically the one where she scolds Cloud, like it's literally the scene that made her change her opinion on Tifa.

If you look at scenes without context and everything, for sure it can look LT-powered. But in truth, the devs are telling a story, everything has context - whether they succeed or not in telling that story is a different thing. Very obviously I think they failed to convey what AC was about so they had to make ACC to explain better, but even like this @LunarTarotGirl got their intention the first time around.

Yeah, I honestly don't think that viewing everything in a story through the LTD is giving any more of a correct view than interpreting everything through a ship.

EDIT: A few mistakes.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This is second-hand information so you may do with it what you will, but Bleach (manga) also has a gacha mobile game. From what I have heard from people who actually play it, this mobile gacha game centres around Ichigo and Rukia and gives them matching skins all the time whereas Inoue, the girl Ichigo canonically married, barely gets anything.

Also EC is still pushing CT and ZA super hard. Much like the situation with Bleach, shippers are mistaking Cloud and Aerith being friendly with each other for evidence that they love each other, same as folks did with Ichigo and Rukia.

 

[Skilganon]

Repeat after me: Fan service is not a dirty word, lol. There is nothing wrong with fan service. It is there to make fans happy -- hence, "fan service" -- and it's rarely deeper than that. Fans used to understand this until extreme shippers started thinking these were super secret clues that totally had a bearing on where the story was headed and started demanding canon validation, harassing the creators and actors and other fans, and yelling about baiting.

It depends on the context. When hardcore CA shippers say the CT kiss is fan service, they are insinuating that the devs created the scene for the sole purpose of placating shippers. It's lowkey an insult to the devs and the characters involved. Good writing is part of a cohesive vision, no writer wants to create scenes that clash with their vision. Yet this is what CA shippers are accusing the FFVII devs of doing with the CT kiss.

Every shipper wants their ship to be part of the grand narrative, or rather, have a greater impact than the rival in this case. If part 3 ends like the OG, all of that CA "buildup" will be "for nothing". The CA scenes are going to in retrospect become the CT kiss, that is, moments separate from the story, created to placate shippers, and thus harder to enjoy.

 

[eleamaya]

Other examples include the Maiden Who Travels the Planet novel, which was okayed by SE, then later declared non-canon.

Was it ever OK-ed by the devs? Now tell me they if the fans in FFX can't distinguish between Yuna's novella written by the same writer in FFX Ultimania Omega and FFX Will and FFX2-5 written by Nojima although they HATE it and pretend it's not exist.

Tell me if fans in Resident Evil is never confused with this (screenshot from RE Wiki page)

But when I wanna edit Maiden page on FF Wiki, the admin always revert it as if it's still debatable. I hate this LTD that make even bias admin, y'know.

Both SE and Capcom knows and just view it as derivative work that dont influence their canon at all. The fans follows
Except for his novel on FFXIII, perhaps, I heard he's credited in FFXIII Lighnting Returns Credit Roll.

 

[GamerSkull]

Whether or not Maiden was ever considered canon at some point or not doesn’t really matter when later work contradicts it.

I haven’t read Maiden so correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t it state that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers?

That’s already out the window as current canon is that Aerith got the idea to sell flowers from Zack in the first place.

Maiden obviously came out before Crisis Core, at a time when Zack was literally a character who had five minutes of screentime. It’s pretty clear that as they decided to flesh him out further, there were some interpretations of him that no longer worked.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It depends on the context. When hardcore CA shippers say the CT kiss is fan service, they are insinuating that the devs created the scene for the sole purpose of placating shippers. It's lowkey an insult to the devs and the characters involved. Good writing is part of a cohesive vision, no writer wants to create scenes that clash with their vision. Yet this is what CA shippers are accusing the FFVII devs of doing with the CT kiss.

Every shipper wants their ship to be part of the grand narrative, or rather, have a greater impact than the rival in this case. If part 3 ends like the OG, all of that CA "buildup" will be "for nothing". The CA scenes are going to in retrospect become the CT kiss, that is, moments separate from the story, created to placate shippers, and thus harder to enjoy.

Actually, I would say that CT kiss was fan service because all the dates were slightly divergent from the storyline proper (I forget how they were officially described, lol). But basically, they all happened in their own pocket dimensions to reward the player for their love for a character. But guess who still didn't get even a fan service kiss? Also, I suspect CT is going to get their non-optional story-based kiss(es) in P3. And ZA.

Honestly, at some point you're just going to have to ignore what fanon shippers (who insist that their ship is canon) say. To be brutally honest, I don't even understand why it matters if "every shipper wants their ship to be part of the grand narrative"? I mean, LTDs have existed since time immemorial. Harem is an actual genre, usually with wet noodles of protagonists who cross the line with every major girl and yet only one of the girls "wins". Shipping has existed since forever and there is no plausible way for every ship to be part of the grand narrative or endgame. The other option of "no fan service" is that nobody gets anything. Would that be preferable?

Also, from my point of view there is no romantic CA build-up? I would even argue that there was no romantic CA build-up for most casual players. Whenever Aerith tried to make their dates about romance, Cloud shut that down hard. He only kisses one girl on the screen. Why doesn't my point of view matter in this? Why is it only hypothetical CAs' future letdown? And why is no one thinking of Sefikura shippers? They got fan service of Sephiroth('s clone) actually straddling Cloud and constantly whispering sweet nothings in his ear, lol.

Let me ask again, what exactly would you want or expect from the devs? What would be the hypothetical perfect FF7 for you that never gives the wrong impression or interpretation to others?

Tell me if fans in Resident Evil is never confused with this (screenshot from RE Wiki page)

I was actually about to say that Maiden is probably like those Resident Evil books written by an American author (iirc). XD

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Was it ever OK-ed by the devs? Now tell me they if the fans in FFX can't distinguish between Yuna's novella written by the same writer in FFX Ultimania Omega and FFX Will and FFX2-5 written by Nojima although they HATE it and pretend it's not exist.

Tell me if fans in Resident Evil is never confused with this (screenshot from RE Wiki page)
View attachment 17413
But when I wanna edit Maiden page on FF Wiki, the admin always revert it as if it's still debatable. I hate this LTD that make even bias admin, y'know.

Both SE and Capcom knows and just view it as derivative work that dont influence their canon at all. The fans follows
Except for his novel on FFXIII, perhaps, I heard he's credited in FFXIII Lighnting Returns Credit Roll.

Like the Force, if anything Studio BentStuff/Benny Matsuyama is mentioned my radar pings. lol

What's even more funny—you could even say SE and BentStuff themselves don't even view his materials for FF7 as derivative works, beyond the literal sense of just it existing. I remember still, back in the release of Remake when SE created a booklet (the one that came with the bag) that contain the history of FF7 (which was featured in the 10th anniversary too, I believe) AND a list literally listing all the derivative works (down to even the freaking snowboarding game), and the short story? It's nowhere in sight, and very well would have warranted to be. But of course, because it wasn't created or treated like how SE formally does with similar material, and it's by design of how BentStuff (who make the guidebooks) operates. And they're all aware of it too—it's the same when BentStuff did those RE books, of which Matsuyama wrote stories for as well. That situation is hilarious too since it seems like Matsuyama had a hard time making the RE ones based on his staff comments on the BentStuff website. lol

Talking about Matsuyama's works + BentStuff can be loaded, as is other things even like canon—I've written/researched thoroughly on it all to exhaustion. I just know it's very difficult because on all these subjects, everyone stepping to a bunch of different beats in what they know or mean.

 

[eleamaya]

And why is no one thinking of Sefikura shippers? They got fan service of Sephiroth('s clone) actually straddling Cloud and constantly whispering sweet nothings in his ear, lol.

We celebrate Hamaguchi's statement that Sephiroth "like" Cloud. (yes, he uses "suki" here, but the subtitle is different)

I remember still, back in the release of Remake when SE created a booklet (the one that came with the bag) that contain the history of FF7 (which was featured in the 10th anniversary too, I believe) AND a list literally listing all the derivative works (down to even the freaking snowboarding game), and the short story? It's nowhere in sight, and very well would have warranted to be.

On that booklet, I'm actually more drawn into OG's double page of the game description. It just show 5 core characters: Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth, and Zack. The Zack who just appear 5 minutes and not colored! Not Barret, not Rufus, or else. Story can't work without Zack.

That situation is hilarious too since it seems like Matsuyama had a hard time making the RE ones based on his staff comments on the BentStuff website. lol

I think Matsuyama expressed the same thing about Yuna & Aerith's story. It's hilarious when his boss, Yamashita, just came at him and asked "I want you to write Aerith's story in FFVII Utlimania Omega like your Yuna's story (in FFX Ultimania Omega)". But I heard CAs twisted it as if it was Nomura's request. The hell Nomura would ask other than Nojima himself.

AFAIK, his writing in both FFVII Kaitai Shishio (Dismantled)'s section of Characters Mind Story and Maiden is consistent. He wrote Cloti under The Highwind using the high affection in Dismantled, and then show the same sentiment in Maiden that Aerith can't help Cloud. Aerith's monologue in Gongaga is also consistent with her reunion with Zack in Maiden. Sure, CAs embrace the Aerith's "I love Cloud more than Zack" but dismiss Matsuyama writing Cloti too.

 

[Wanderer]

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I think Matsuyama expressed the same thing about Yuna & Aerith's story. It's hilarious when his boss, Yamashita, just came at him and asked "I want you to write Aerith's story in FFVII Utlimania Omega like your Yuna's story (in FFX Ultimania Omega)". But I heard CAs twisted it as if it was Nomura's request. The hell Nomura would ask other than Nojima himself.

Ironically enough, I've seen some Clotis who keep using the phrasing of Matsuyama being "commissioned", which would also be inaccurate and misleading. Lol

I remember having a conversation with a fan—who weirdly now is known for being difficult and as of late has made parody material to mock Clotis—about why the FF7 fandom can't just be in agreement to count Maiden as part of the series, like other fandoms may do. Beside a bunch of factors, like some companies being super lax about establishing official canon or being super direct, there's just A LOT of motivation and interpretation that determines what people want to accept for the sake of whatever. Happens in all fandoms, ain't just FF7. To establish what is what —I do think it's important for the sake of discussion, at the least, if someone's entire point hinges on whether a source is canonical or not, or whatever it is they understand about something. But it gets a bit much and the "plot" above is lost. Sometimes I think this fandoms talks more about canon and paratext than the actual game material, and rely A LOT on it when they don't try to understand those subjects.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Like the Force, if anything Studio BentStuff/Benny Matsuyama is mentioned my radar pings. lol

What's even more funny—you could even say SE and BentStuff themselves don't even view his materials for FF7 as derivative works, beyond the literal sense of just it existing. I remember still, back in the release of Remake when SE created a booklet (the one that came with the bag) that contain the history of FF7 (which was featured in the 10th anniversary too, I believe) AND a list literally listing all the derivative works (down to even the freaking snowboarding game), and the short story? It's nowhere in sight, and very well would have warranted to be. But of course, because it wasn't created or treated like how SE formally does with similar material, and it's by design of how BentStuff (who make the guidebooks) operates. And they're all aware of it too—it's the same when BentStuff did those RE books, of which Matsuyama wrote stories for as well. That situation is hilarious too since it seems like Matsuyama had a hard time making the RE ones based on his staff comments on the BentStuff website. lol

Talking about Matsuyama's works + BentStuff can be loaded, as is other things even like canon—I've written/researched thoroughly on it all to exhaustion. I just know it's very difficult because on all these subjects, everyone stepping to a bunch of different beats in what they know or mean.

Don't forget about G-Bike! G-Bike was on that list too, and the only story it has is "Marlene called to remind Cloud it was Tifa's birthday, but Cloud already knew. He'd never forget Tifa's birthday. Oh no, a monster! Better beat it to get home safe to Tifa" and other shit like that.
That was an actual G-Bike event, for the record.

We celebrate Hamaguchi's statement that Sephiroth "like" Cloud. (yes, he uses "suki" here, but the subtitle is different)



On that booklet, I'm actually more drawn into OG's double page of the game description. It just show 5 core characters: Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth, and Zack. The Zack who just appear 5 minutes and not colored! Not Barret, not Rufus, or else. Story can't work without Zack.


I think Matsuyama expressed the same thing about Yuna & Aerith's story. It's hilarious when his boss, Yamashita, just came at him and asked "I want you to write Aerith's story in FFVII Utlimania Omega like your Yuna's story (in FFX Ultimania Omega)". But I heard CAs twisted it as if it was Nomura's request. The hell Nomura would ask other than Nojima himself.

AFAIK, his writing in both FFVII Kaitai Shishio (Dismantled)'s section of Characters Mind Story and Maiden is consistent. He wrote Cloti under The Highwind using the high affection in Dismantled, and then show the same sentiment in Maiden that Aerith can't help Cloud. Aerith's monologue in Gongaga is also consistent with her reunion with Zack in Maiden. Sure, CAs embrace the Aerith's "I love Cloud more than Zack" but dismiss Matsuyama writing Cloti too.

As I have said many a time, Maiden isn't CA. It's at most Not ZA, and even then I think it's ZA, just a very different ZA than in canon. It's very pro Tifa and CT.

Ironically enough, I've seen some Clotis who keep using the phrasing of Matsuyama being "commissioned", which would also be inaccurate and misleading. Lol

As a shorthand for "Told by his boss to write some page filler" I can see how comissioned got used, but yeah, it's not exactly accurate.

I remember having a conversation with a fan—who weirdly now is known for being difficult and as of late has made parody material to mock Clotis—about why the FF7 fandom can't just be in agreement to count Maiden as part of the series, like other fandoms may do. Beside a bunch of factors, like some companies being super lax about establishing official canon or being super direct, there's just A LOT of motivation and interpretation that determines what people want to accept for the sake of whatever. Happens in all fandoms, ain't just FF7. To establish what is what —I do think it's important for the sake of discussion, at the least, if someone's entire point hinges on whether a source is canonical or not, or whatever it is they understand about something. But it gets a bit much and the "plot" above is lost. Sometimes I think this fandoms talks more about canon and paratext than the actual game material, and rely A LOT on it when they don't try to understand those subjects.

The thing is, waaaay back when, there was an attempt to fit Maiden into the narrative. It just became harder and harder to justify after DoC and Crisis Core and what we understood of the metaphysics from those games, and how both games just completely disregarded big chunks of Maiden, like DoC with Hojo's life energy not going into the lifestream proper, and CC just changing everything Maiden established about Zack and his relationship with Aerith and with other women.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I think

And I'm trying to say this without sounding offensive or putting my own bias but I've been in like 11 fandoms so I think I'm right lol. In every fandom I've been it doesn't seem to MATTER what creator intentions are. It matters more what the fans want and come hell or high water they will see what they want regardless. And that's always bothered me hence the creation of my blog.

But also the design of these ships CA and ZA and CT just inherently appeal to different audiences that want different things. And the author intent can't control that regardless.

For example without being too offensive I have spoken extensively before on why the coupling of ZA and CT didn't appeal to me at first.

I will now go more into why I think CT specifically would have a harder time against fans that don't want to see it. Here goes.
CT is for people who like realistic couples. Couples they can relate to, power couples. Maybe if you self insert as either the partner is loyal and will never love anyone else but you. A couple that keeps promises etc.

It's not that it's unappealing. But I'm going to be real with you how much of that is in idk EVERY SINGLE HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP EVER? In every single love story how much of it is promises? Childhood Friends and loyalty. It's great it's beautiful. But it's been done. It's always been done because it's your typical romance. And it's realistic. I know this story already. The only really big difference to me between Cloud and Tifa and for example my neighbors or my friends that love each other very much is the Lifestream scene which is its own beautiful narrative.

It's however without that not going to catch people's eyes to the point people will dive further to see what they're about unless they're already invested. At least not yet. We don't have HD LS yet it could be amazing and converts everyone. But your general public is going to go oh they love each other cool and you won't need to argue with them OR they're going to look at the other dynamics that interest them more and many are not going to care to go deeper than that and these are who you'll probably encounter in debates.

And it's not the only ship in FF7. It's not the only dynamic we see. There's people who like the realistic childhood friends couples but for those who may not they may seek something else.

Now in comparison for my point of people ship what appeals to them: you have Sephiroth and Cloud which is super unhealthy sure and obviously fanservice (which is fine actually. I'm all for dark ships and fanservice) but if you've been in 11 fandoms like I have you know exactly why it will still be a favorite. It looks super cool and two hot guys together can't go wrong. It has appeal so people will want to see more of it.

My point tho: Not everyone will be a CT because basically something else may just appeal more.

But I think people forget also even if not in canon. CA is still in competition with CT in terms of grabbing attention simply by being the other pairing people are going to see on the screen. And I reiterate it doesn't actually matter what author intent is here. Not for people in the fandom or general public to find something that appeals to them more that isn't CT. And for people unfamiliar with FF7 to see the pretty ness of the magical girl and soldier and to say. Hey, that's pretty I want to see that. And think that's the story because that's what they want it to be. And to hear NPTK and gush because it's so pretty omg look at the flower dress and the way they look at eachother etc. Of course there are people who find it appealing. And like it or not CA is super pretty and sparkly and super appealing to people who like pretty sparkly romance stuff.
And no they're not going to research beyond this. They're not going to look in the Ultimania. They're going to see something they like and go with it. And well, this is generally what happens. In all fandom.

Now I will talk about younger me for a moment as an example the one that didn't like CT and why my attention was on CA like it is for multiple people. If the amount of people you see wishing for CA canon is any indication. But more importantly without trying to be mean about it I'm going to explain why my attention specifically didn't go to CT and why it took a while to accept them too. Because I do think it's important to note that none of this is a lack on part of the story or devs.

For me as I mentioned personally until ACC I didn't give two thoughts about CT. I literally didn't care. Why would I? There's no pretty sparkly magic scenes for me to gush over? There's no pretty field of flowers. Yes there's the Highwind but I said it before Cloud and Tifa to me are like my neighbors. They're everymen. Do I care if my neighbors have sex? A romance since their childhood? I'm sorry but no I don't. And when I an anime fan have watched hundreds of romances will I be impressed by childhood friends find eachother? No I won't.

(Notice how none of my reasoning is about anything besides me and my personal feelings and preferences and biases not because the devs somehow messed up.)

That's why for the longest time it didn't MATTER how romantic looking CT was to me that still wasn't enough to make me care enough to accept them. So what did younger me do? Ignore but accept their relationship and still enjoy CA because it was prettier regardless of canon or whatever changes came or didn't. I decided to me I didn't care if CT was canon and honestly sorry but I actually don't care if it is to this day. Which made me accept the story and enjoy CT more in the end honestly.

But not everyone is okay with ignoring canon when something appeals to them. Especially nowadays many need their preference to be canon too. It's not enough for them if it's pretty they want the screen time, the validation etc. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But in fandoms this want for canon goes too far. Far enough that there's no limit that it doesn't matter what the truth is in the end people will find a way to make themselves to believe whatever they want is how it is.

And that's what happens in fandom people will want what they want. And come hell or high water it won't matter what actually is said by creators. That's why we have to ignore fans and their wants in discussions of canon. And ours too honestly.

Canon is what the creators want. The end.

And it can even be divorced from what fans want. There are several cases of that but eventually we have to accept that and move on.

And I don't think we should blame the creators for that. Because certain things will always appeal to different people differently. People will want different things and it's not possible for them to appease them all. Just tell their story.

We fans also can't be so hyper sensitive all the time to other fans who want the same thing as us basically validation for what we love. Because that just leads to the infighting and toxicity you see.

This also is why debunking anything in a fandom is usually only useful for those who were going to listen to you in the first place.
And again it's unfair to put so much responsibility on creators when all these factors are part of it and beyond their control.

Edit: Gosh my autocorrect was fighting me something fierce but I think I corrected most mistakes

To make it clear for me dark ships unhealthy dynamics etc are all perfectly acceptable ship material and there's nothing wrong with that at all . I'm just pointing out the dynamics and story itself isn't (and should not be) enough to deter people from shipping what appeals to them.

and that's why we should always separate and delineate clearly preferences from canon debates. Yet often the issue is both get mixed together where people believe their preference has to be canon because they're attached. When we should really be asking at all times: What do the creators want and how does xyz serve what they want to say? Even if often I'm at complete odds with creators (and I even think wtf are these creators even doing??? Like with ReTrilogy endings) that has to be the question and focus to get anywhere in these discussions.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

The thing is, waaaay back when, there was an attempt to fit Maiden into the narrative. It just became harder and harder to justify after DoC and Crisis Core and what we understood of the metaphysics from those games, and how both games just completely disregarded big chunks of Maiden, like DoC with Hojo's life energy not going into the lifestream proper, and CC just changing everything Maiden established about Zack and his relationship with Aerith and with other women.

Which is why it behooves me that it's somehow still being used as a dissection. Lol Not that I don't know the reason why, but I had more faith people eventually would just move on to everything else, but they don't for now 20 years. Matsuyama can't stop catching strays as a result. I get not liking his approach, but the disrespect can be a bit much for what otherwise is just frustration that the story exists/used as ammunition by shippers.

If based on the OG alone, I can see how he got where he got in writing ZA (I'm also pretty sure Matsuyama took stuff from the early dev notes too that weren't fleshed out in-game), but I still feel like the approach wasn't the best. He didn't have much to work with. The CC chapter story passages he did are better-ish.