SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[eleamaya]

@LunarTarotGirl I dont like Cloti too, lol. Slow burn and the childhood friends things aren't my taste, and Tifa? She's cool but not my preference so how could I be invested to that pair. But, LS sequence show me how Cloud is hopeless romantic, like... well, he loves Tifa, period. Nah, I usually love that trope, guy who is hopeless romantic. So, I think it changes my mind... I mean, I'm sucker for tragedy and/or tragic romance, that's why CA is more appealing to me, thus I insist "Well, Cloud loves both", and this is before I swifted to ZA.

If based on the OG alone, I can see how he got where he got in writing ZA (I'm also pretty sure Matsuyama took stuff from the early dev notes too that weren't fleshed out in-game), but I still feel like the approach wasn't the best. He didn't have much to work with. The CC chapter story passages he did are better-ish.

To me, Matsuyama still Anti-ZA lol. In the section you mention, he wrote "They attract to each other by mutual feelings similar to friendship, because they’re both juvenile, if you call it love…" which CA love to use it. This is funny while in the interview section, Nojima mention that "Although I call it romantic love (恋愛, read: ren'ai), the two are still young..." So, I prefer how the official call them, budding romance, blooming relationship.

 

[eleamaya]

Btw, folks

［インタビュー］PC版「FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH」がついに配信開始。北瀬Pと浜口Dが語る，リメイク第2弾の魅力とPC版ならではの特徴

　スクウェア・エニックスは本日23：00，PC版「FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH」の配信を，SteamおよびEpic Games Store にて開始する。今回，2024年2月末にリリースされたPlayStation 5版に対する反響や，PC版の特徴，そして3作めの進捗といった気になる部分を，プロデューサーを務める北瀬佳範氏と，ディレクターの浜口直樹氏に聞いた。

www.4gamer.net

4Gamer:
　Do you ever think, "I didn't mean it that way"?

浜口氏：
　いやぁ……。それはあります。とくに翻訳が入ることによって，ニュアンスが変わったりしますからね。
　例えばクラウドの母親のセリフで，「あんたにはねぇ……ちょっとお姉さんで あんたをグイグイ引っ張っていく そんな女の子が ぴったりだと思うんだけどね」というものがあります。日本語で要約すると，「クラウドは，積極的なガールフレンドのほうが相性がいいと思う」みたいなニュアンスなんですよね。
　ただ，海外版ではそこまで詳しく翻訳されていなかったので，このセリフについて海外のメディアから質問を受けたんです。そのときの私の回答が翻訳されてニュアンスが変わってしまった結果，「クラウドとエアリスの間にあるのは，恋愛感情ではなく姉弟愛である」と解釈する海外のファンがいたんです。

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浜口氏：
　はい……。
　あらためてお伝えしておきたいのですが，我々クリエイターがゲームの外側で「クラウドはティファが好き」「いや，エアリスが好き」みたいなことを公表することはありません。ゲームの中で表現していることがすべてですから，質問されても回答はできません。ご了承ください。浜口氏：
　

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[null]

Yeah I like characters starting indifferent and not liking each other myself. Conflict is a good thing it keeps things interesting. If they start off happy all the time there's less conflict. And good stories need conflict. Hence why I don't think characters to get along all the time or that it's bad that if there's any friction in their dynamic.

I can see that. I think it's a nice dynamic despite my obvious distaste for childhood friends to lovers I understand why people like them. Being there for eachother is nice to see and yes bonding over a shared past. We didn't see that much in OG so it's nice in Rebirth. Seeing them rely on each other and basically meet each other again and overcome obstacles is nice.

I'm all for the Ships In That Night trope CA has. (Meeting someone and only knowing them a short while while never forgetting them and parting). It reminds me of stuff like 5cm Per Second and Your Lie In April and honestly most Jpop songs lol talking about how "we're connected even if we're far apart, I'll never forget you etc" and the characters met for like a few days lol. And that aesthetic of life and meetings being fleeting being (mono no aware) And a Love That Can Never Be as well as the tragedy aspect myself.

I'd also recommend Frieren: Beyond Journey's End for anyone into fleeting, bittersweet ships. It's about a long-lived elf who fails to appreciate her brief time with humans, realizing the most important person to her had already come and gone. Frieren herself is the polar opposite of Aerith (aside from being OP as all hell) but the way her feelings blossom for someone out of reach, and only intensify as time passes, is something I think CA fans would vibe with.

(I was going to watch 5cm/sec but the premise makes me irrationally angry, lol. Maybe someday.)

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I'd also recommend Frieren: Beyond Journey's End for anyone into fleeting, bittersweet ships. It's about a long-lived elf who fails to appreciate her brief time with humans, realizing the most important person to her had already come and gone. Frieren herself is the polar opposite of Aerith (aside from being OP as all hell) but the way her feelings blossom for someone out of reach, and only intensify as time passes, is something I think CA fans would vibe with.

(I was going to watch 5cm/sec but the premise makes me irrationally angry, lol. Maybe someday.)

I 100% agree and I personally really love Frieren. One of the best animes I've seen in a while. I'm in the middle of it currently.

5 sec per Second makes me angry every time too so I get it but I also love it lol. I'm a sucker for that sort of thing. There's several stories by that director and they're all the opposite of happy endings and that one to me is the least tragic.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

To me, Matsuyama still Anti-ZA lol. In the section you mention, he wrote "They attract to each other by mutual feelings similar to friendship, because they’re both juvenile, if you call it love…" which CA love to use it. This is funny while in the interview section, Nojima mention that "Although I call it romantic love (恋愛, read: ren'ai), the two are still young..." So, I prefer how the official call them, budding romance, blooming relationship.

Lol Yeah that and other stuff, which I equate mostly to interpretative outcomes. That example is rough because it translates poorly grammar-wise to english, so if understanding it in japanese, I'd argue the "if you call it love" blurb is meant to have a "is this love?" feel, as opposed to, well whatever negative thing people understand that line as. I've seen many takes. As far as I'm concerned, it's doing the same function as describing their "enjoyment from simply spending time together as akin to a platonic-romantic love [プラトニックな恋]" (incidentally, another quote CAs don't understand because they translate it to "platonic love" and miss the usage of the koi)—it just emphasizes the fact that for Zack and Aerith, their relationship wasn't completely led by like, direct sexual actions. Emotionally it was all romantic, but in an "innocent" way because they're still teenagers, which I'm sure is inspired by the fact that our resident puppy dog is revealed to be more innocent/naive than playboy.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Btw, folks

［インタビュー］PC版「FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH」がついに配信開始。北瀬Pと浜口Dが語る，リメイク第2弾の魅力とPC版ならではの特徴

　スクウェア・エニックスは本日23：00，PC版「FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH」の配信を，SteamおよびEpic Games Store にて開始する。今回，2024年2月末にリリースされたPlayStation 5版に対する反響や，PC版の特徴，そして3作めの進捗といった気になる部分を，プロデューサーを務める北瀬佳範氏と，ディレクターの浜口直樹氏に聞いた。

www.4gamer.net

4Gamer:
　Do you ever think, "I didn't mean it that way"?

浜口氏：
　いやぁ……。それはあります。とくに翻訳が入ることによって，ニュアンスが変わったりしますからね。
　例えばクラウドの母親のセリフで，「あんたにはねぇ……ちょっとお姉さんで あんたをグイグイ引っ張っていく そんな女の子が ぴったりだと思うんだけどね」というものがあります。日本語で要約すると，「クラウドは，積極的なガールフレンドのほうが相性がいいと思う」みたいなニュアンスなんですよね。
　ただ，海外版ではそこまで詳しく翻訳されていなかったので，このセリフについて海外のメディアから質問を受けたんです。そのときの私の回答が翻訳されてニュアンスが変わってしまった結果，「クラウドとエアリスの間にあるのは，恋愛感情ではなく姉弟愛である」と解釈する海外のファンがいたんです。

=====

浜口氏：
　はい……。
　あらためてお伝えしておきたいのですが，我々クリエイターがゲームの外側で「クラウドはティファが好き」「いや，エアリスが好き」みたいなことを公表することはありません。ゲームの中で表現していることがすべてですから，質問されても回答はできません。ご了承ください。浜口氏：

x.com

x.com

So basically...

Well . It's just exactly as I figured. Especially the whole: No one will make comments on Who Cloud likes. Which was what my post in response to this was trying to say basically.

Here he says he was referring to Claudia's line and he did mean chottoneesan as a trait like I said not as a sisterly relationship how we see it in the West. And he was taken out of context and now he's admitting it was taken out of context.

Wow, I never realized he'd actually admit this much though .
And Kitase too.

So basically again nothing new was being said there he was just saying how he views Aerith's personality. Which is just always how she's been described. The kind that leads people around without hesitation in all her profiles.

Thanks for the share.
Kitase also talking about the Aerith surviving trick and saying he's glad talk didn't go in that direction is very telling. Despite the fact that trick actually does exist as a glitch lol I'm also glad that's not the focus of that scene from the devs intentions.

Well.

They're just straight out saying things directly now.

Where did this sudden fortrightness come from lol?

Edit:
I deleted my first post because
Sorry I needed to go confirm the source and..

Whoa. This came straight from him. He posted the English translation himself. What on earth happened to lead him to this point I wonder. It says in the articles he got questions from overseas and overseas but very rarely do devs ever actually respond. Edit: Some people say it's due to the PC version releasing. Maybe.

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So yeah case closed then on if it's a legit source. But wow okay

So my thoughts are just.

Good for him. Good for all the devs speaking on their creative vision.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

So basically. It's exactly as I said. He was referring to Claudia's line and he did mean chottoneesan as a trait like I said not as a sisterly relationship. And he was taken out of context and now he's admitting it.

Wow, I never realized he'd actually admit this much.

So basically again nothing new was being said there he was just saying how he views Aerith's personality. Which is just always how she's been described. The kind that leads people around.

Thanks for the share.

Kitase also talking about the Aerith surviving trick and saying he's glad talk didn't go in that direction is very telling. Despite the fact that trick actually does exist as a glitch lol I'm also glad that's not the focus of that scene.

They're just straight out saying things directly now.

Where did this sudden fortrightness come from lol?
Sorry I needed to go confirm the source and

Whoa. This came straight from him. That's huge. He posted the English translation himself. What on earth happened to lead him to this point??? I hope he wasn't harassed him over his comments??? It says in the articles he got social media references but very rarely do devs ever actually respond.

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To me this is kind of funny. lol Because it's less about the translation and more about people's understanding of JPN and it's typical usage like for what you're talking about. The "sister" aspect comes from the JPN, in which that is what people refer to when pushing the brother-sister angle, as it did with the other latest interview. And to be honest, "assertive/active/forthright/etc.", any number of synonyms + the official of "older", as a total replacement—these still don't capture the natural interpretative layers in that sisterly description, which most people's go-to has been more towards different connotations to make it fit either character, or both for those neutral. That's one of those things that can be hard to capture, but if you understand it from the JPN culture, you know what it's about.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

To me this is kind of funny. lol Because it's less about the translation and more about people's understanding of JPN and it's typical usage like for what you're talking about. The "sister" aspect comes from the JPN, in which that is what people refer to when pushing the brother-sister angle, as it did with the other latest interview. And to be honest, "assertive/active/forthright/etc.", any number of synonyms + the official of "older", as a total replacement—these still don't capture the natural interpretative layers in that sisterly description, which most people's go-to has been more towards different connotations to make it fit either character, or both for those neutral. That's one of those things that can be hard to capture, but if you understand it from the JPN culture, you know what it's about.

That's extremely true. But also I've been a fan of Japanese media for decades and these mistakes happen all the time and this is maybe the second time I have ever seen a creator correct a language misconception like this. It's usually ignored and I guess it's because it might be a hassle to explain nuances or it's considered harmless.

Yeah I always figured it basically just means the gui gui type. A word that doesn't exist in nuance in English.


I'm just honestly in awe he said anything, personally.

Kitase too. But that's good. Because that's what everyone wanted. The devs to be direct and well I don't think it gets more direct than these interviews. Everything else as he said will be shown clearly in the content. And that's always how it should be anyway. Looking for clues in interviews tends to be a dead end anyway, good content always shows not tells.

Again good for them.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'd also recommend Frieren: Beyond Journey's End for anyone into fleeting, bittersweet ships. It's about a long-lived elf who fails to appreciate her brief time with humans, realizing the most important person to her had already come and gone. Frieren herself is the polar opposite of Aerith (aside from being OP as all hell) but the way her feelings blossom for someone out of reach, and only intensify as time passes, is something I think CA fans would vibe with.

I 100% agree and I personally really love Frieren. One of the best animes I've seen in a while. I'm in the middle of it currently.

Frieren is amazing, but especially so if you are familiar with Record of Lodoss War, which it is a sort of spiritual sequel to. Deedlit is not Frieren but the groundwork the former laid for the latter is undeniable.

5 sec per Second makes me angry every time too so I get it but I also love it lol. I'm a sucker for that sort of thing. There's several stories by that director and they're all the opposite of happy endings and that one to me is the least tragic.

Oh, Hoshi no Koe is at least hopeful of a happy reunion. Promised Place is a fucked up dystopia, no argument there.

Jumping back to the pairing preferences talk, I've never gotten the feeling that childhood friends are "owed" in the situations where they turn lovers. It's just a narrative shorthand, like how Mary Jane is basically always Peter's childhood neighbor in every AU.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I think

And I'm trying to say this without sounding offensive or putting my own bias but I've been in like 11 fandoms so I think I'm right lol. In every fandom I've been it doesn't seem to MATTER what creator intentions are. It matters more what the fans want and come hell or high water they will see what they want regardless. And that's always bothered me hence the creation of my blog.

But also the design of these ships CA and ZA and CT just inherently appeal to different audiences that want different things. And the author intent can't control that regardless.

For example without being too offensive I have spoken extensively before on why the coupling of ZA and CT didn't appeal to me at first.

I will now go more into why I think CT specifically would have a harder time against fans that don't want to see it. Here goes.
CT is for people who like realistic couples. Couples they can relate to, power couples. Maybe if you self insert as either the partner is loyal and will never love anyone else but you. A couple that keeps promises etc.

It's not that it's unappealing. But I'm going to be real with you how much of that is in idk EVERY SINGLE HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP EVER? In every single love story how much of it is promises? Childhood Friends and loyalty. It's great it's beautiful. But it's been done. It's always been done because it's your typical romance. And it's realistic. I know this story already. The only really big difference to me between Cloud and Tifa and for example my neighbors or my friends that love each other very much is the Lifestream scene which is its own beautiful narrative.

It's however without that not going to catch people's eyes to the point people will dive further to see what they're about unless they're already invested. At least not yet. We don't have HD LS yet it could be amazing and converts everyone. But your general public is going to go oh they love each other cool and you won't need to argue with them OR they're going to look at the other dynamics that interest them more and many are not going to care to go deeper than that and these are who you'll probably encounter in debates.

And it's not the only ship in FF7. It's not the only dynamic we see. There's people who like the realistic childhood friends couples but for those who may not they may seek something else.

Now in comparison for my point of people ship what appeals to them: you have Sephiroth and Cloud which is super unhealthy sure and obviously fanservice (which is fine actually. I'm all for dark ships and fanservice) but if you've been in 11 fandoms like I have you know exactly why it will still be a favorite. It looks super cool and two hot guys together can't go wrong. It has appeal so people will want to see more of it.

My point tho: Not everyone will be a CT because basically something else may just appeal more.

But I think people forget also even if not in canon. CA is still in competition with CT in terms of grabbing attention simply by being the other pairing people are going to see on the screen. And I reiterate it doesn't actually matter what author intent is here. Not for people in the fandom or general public to find something that appeals to them more that isn't CT. And for people unfamiliar with FF7 to see the pretty ness of the magical girl and soldier and to say. Hey, that's pretty I want to see that. And think that's the story because that's what they want it to be. And to hear NPTK and gush because it's so pretty omg look at the flower dress and the way they look at eachother etc. Of course there are people who find it appealing. And like it or not CA is super pretty and sparkly and super appealing to people who like pretty sparkly romance stuff.
And no they're not going to research beyond this. They're not going to look in the Ultimania. They're going to see something they like and go with it. And well, this is generally what happens. In all fandom.

Now I will talk about younger me for a moment as an example the one that didn't like CT and why my attention was on CA like it is for multiple people. If the amount of people you see wishing for CA canon is any indication. But more importantly without trying to be mean about it I'm going to explain why my attention specifically didn't go to CT and why it took a while to accept them too. Because I do think it's important to note that none of this is a lack on part of the story or devs.

For me as I mentioned personally until ACC I didn't give two thoughts about CT. I literally didn't care. Why would I? There's no pretty sparkly magic scenes for me to gush over? There's no pretty field of flowers. Yes there's the Highwind but I said it before Cloud and Tifa to me are like my neighbors. They're everymen. Do I care if my neighbors have sex? A romance after pining since their childhood? I'm sorry but no I don't. And when I an anime fan have watched hundreds of romances will I be impressed by childhood friends find eachother? No I won't.

(Notice how none of my reasoning is about anything besides me and my personal feelings and preferences and biases not because the devs somehow messed up.)

That's why for the longest time it didn't MATTER how romantic looking CT was to me that still wasn't enough to make me care enough to accept them. So what did younger me do? Ignore but accept their relationship and still enjoy CA because it was prettier regardless of canon or whatever changes came or didn't. I decided to me I didn't care if CT was canon and honestly sorry but I actually don't care if it is to this day. Which made me accept the story and enjoy CT more in the end honestly.

But not everyone is okay with ignoring canon when something appeals to them. Especially nowadays many need their preference to be canon too. It's not enough for them if it's pretty they want the screen time, the validation etc. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But in fandoms this want for canon goes too far. Far enough that there's no limit that it doesn't matter what the truth is in the end people will find a way to make themselves to believe whatever they want is how it is.

And that's what happens in fandom people will want what they want. And come hell or high water it won't matter what actually is said by creators. That's why we have to ignore fans and their wants in discussions of canon. And ours too honestly.

Canon is what the creators want. The end.

And it can even be divorced from what fans want. There are several cases of that but eventually we have to accept that and move on.

And I don't think we should blame the creators for that. Because certain things will always appeal to different people differently. People will want different things and it's not possible for them to appease them all. Just tell their story.

We fans also can't be so hyper sensitive all the time to other fans who want the same thing as us basically validation for what we love. Because that just leads to the infighting and toxicity you see.

This also is why debunking anything in a fandom is usually only useful for those who were going to listen to you in the first place.
And again it's unfair to put so much responsibility on creators when all these factors are part of it and beyond their control.

Edit: Gosh my autocorrect was fighting me something fierce but I think I corrected most mistakes

To make it clear for me dark ships unhealthy dynamics etc are all perfectly acceptable ship material and there's nothing wrong with that at all . I'm just pointing out the dynamics and story itself isn't (and should not be) enough to deter people from shipping what appeals to them.

and that's why we should always separate and delineate clearly preferences from canon debates. Yet often the issue is both get mixed together where people believe their preference has to be canon because they're attached. When we should really be asking at all times: What do the creators want and how does xyz serve what they want to say? Even if often I'm at complete odds with creators (and I even think wtf are these creators even doing??? Like with ReTrilogy endings) that has to be the question and focus to get anywhere in these discussions.

All of this basically was one of the things I was also getting at but I might've forgotten about it or it got lost in translation, lol. Well, LunarTarotGirl put it really well so no big deal.

(I was going to watch 5cm/sec but the premise makes me irrationally angry, lol. Maybe someday.)

5 sec per Second makes me angry every time too so I get it but I also love it lol. I'm a sucker for that sort of thing. There's several stories by that director and they're all the opposite of happy endings and that one to me is the least tragic.

I've seen 5 centimeters per second but I don't get what about it makes people angry, lol? Would either of you mind telling me? xD

Jumping back to the pairing preferences talk, I've never gotten the feeling that childhood friends are "owed" in the situations where they turn lovers. It's just a narrative shorthand, like how Mary Jane is basically always Peter's childhood neighbor in every AU.

Sometimes "childhood friend to lovers" does feel a bit like a cheat sheet in stories where there isn't that much time to develop a romance.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Frieren is amazing, but especially so if you are familiar with Record of Lodoss War, which it is a sort of spiritual sequel to. Deedlit is not Frieren but the groundwork the former laid for the latter is undeniable.


Oh, Hoshi no Koe is at least hopeful of a happy reunion. Promised Place is a fucked up dystopia, no argument there.

Jumping back to the pairing preferences talk, I've never gotten the feeling that childhood friends are "owed" in the situations where they turn lovers. It's just a narrative shorthand, like how Mary Jane is basically always Peter's childhood neighbor in every AU.

I didn't watch Record of Lodoss War but I know of it and see the similarities.

And yeah 5 cm and Hoshi no Koe is definitely the least tragic of the them.

So what I mean by "owed". Is usually there's this sense in manga that the most devoted one should win by default and the new person that comes into the protagonist life is an evil snake trying to steal the protagonist away from said childhood friend. As if childhood friend and protagonists need to be soulmates because they grew up together. Not always but the conflict added to the story is usually the new person ruining things.

Which is done in romance manga in general for drama but with childhood friends there's this sense of "How could you???" Hana chan and you have been together for like ten years when they made a mud ball with you in preschool." Guilt trip Implied. And really all that happened with new character is they fell on eachother in the hallway or something stupid to make Hana chan jealous. And Hana chan and Protagonist are already very obviously the couple so the new character is just there to give them conflict. And is often very unfair about new character who honestly is just living their life and has a crush on the protagonist. Or bonus points: They're cartoony evil trying to ruin said destined love bc we must have drama. This is obviously a romance cliche and I get it. It's for drama but there are any other types of conflicts we can introduce.


I also don't like this in the opposite childhood friend loses scenarios either. Where it's again the childhood friend showing up to make the love interest jealous but I find it happens more often in childhood friend wins stories because that seems to be the go to conflict of choice.

Now there is one Childhood Friends manga couple I love. Edward x Winry in FullmetalAlchemist which didn't go that stupid route probably because it's a shounen and the conflict was the tense relationship with Ed leaving on missions all the time. That was conflict and it was well written.

(Also stuff like Kakao 79% is not bad as the characters are actually aware of their feelings and there is different types of conflicts and LovelyComplex because well, Lovely Complex.)

@Ryeleigh well the train scene for one. Also how the tragedy of it is just so avoidable and all the missed chances because the characters make choices they could have not made. They don't say anything to eachother and it's like argghhhhh XD I love it but it's a frustrating watch lol.

 

[Rin]

Yeah for me personally for OG I was CA all the way without caring about CT at all and this lasted for a while till like 2009 ish. Me liking CT at all is a more recent development. And it's not that AC converted me to ship CT or anything that came later with Dissidia 2012 actually but AC was the first time I saw CT as an actual relationship. And my opinion of Tifa improved greatly because my problem with her before then was I saw her as a doormat who never spoke up. I started liking her character at this point.

Seeing this scene I appreciated her a lot.

And it also made sense to me as a CA even back then because aand I think any Aerith fan would agree Aerith would want Cloud to live his life. And would not be happy knowing that Cloud was abandoning his family and leaving Tifa behind in any scenario. Whether he loved her or not as his reasoning she wouldn't stand for that at all.

That's why even though back then I was still very much still not a fan of CT until later I still loved that scene. And it made me really see Tifa as the strong woman she is. And it made me see CT as a couple going through hard times and it sparked my interest in them for the first time. No they weren't sparkly and magical but that realistic part of having to recover while dealing with trauma together, that is something we don't see in the typical romance story every day. That's why I didn't care about them in OG they seemed too cliche Every Child Hood Friend Trope Ever. Sorry but it's true. But AC changed my view and Rebirth further helped because I actually like when creators don't just show everything as perfect romance with every cliche in the book but with no conflict. Hence I still don't like Remake CT it reminds me too much how I felt about them in OG. Too cookie cutter osannajimi, why should I invest myself?
But I appreciate them in Rebirth because that tension is there and done right.

Ironic because most CTs don't like AC and I understand why but for me that was what made me change my mind about Tifa and started me on the path to changing my mind about CT at all. Without that scene I doubt I'd ever have cared long enough to write essays about them today. Seeing them as something other than the typical cliche done a million times childhood friends and more of a couple trying to grow together despite shared trauma and for a female character to be this anchor and reality check her object of affection like that instead of just being the love interest that quietly supports...to me was a good thing and interesting.

Note: If it isn't clear by this point. I don't like Childhood Friends To Lovers trope. I find it overdone. Too convenient. Too perfect. Too much goes right and never enough conflict unless it's manufactured for drama. The sense that knowing eachother for so long somehow means they are somehow owed eachothers affection and anyone else that comes along is always treated as the obstacle that stands in the way of their destined love (instead you know just having any other type of conflict?)
I'm sorry I hate it. I get people love it. I hate it. That's not anyone's fault and doesn't mean the tropes bad or any childhood friends couples are lacking. It serves it's purpose. It just means that I personally can't stand it. I prefer more conflict and unconventional dynamics way more. That's my bias. If others like that dynamic all power to you. I just want to put into perspective why for me that scene was such a game changer.

I always appreciate reading your thoughts on the LTD bc you kind of sum up how I feel a lot of the time--just in the reverse. I don't tend to talk about it much bc... idk there's no point and very few people would appreciate the nuance I feel about these characters and ships tbh. Still, I do like this forum because I can be honest here. And I can honestly say that there are certain aspects of CT that I do not like whatsoever but there are other aspects of them that I love so, so much and it's those aspects make me support the ship overall.

When it comes to CA, I actually prefer them aesthetically if I'm being honest (I'm a pastel kinda gal, sue me!!) but the bond/relationship between them is very shallow to me and therefore I have zero interest in the romantic side of their relationship. HOWEVER, I'd be lying if I said I don't think CA has one of the most interesting dynamics in the game and that I enjoy watching them interact a lot. It's Aerith who always stands out to me and it's Aerith who I always remember most (I can literally recite the CA interactions in AC/C from memory for example). And even though I don't ship them, I actually think it would be disservice to remove their romantic b-plot from the story--which I know is a blasphemous thing to say in this fandom if you're not a CA shipper.

And I say this as someone who didn't even like Aerith AT ALL in the OG, was iffy on her in CC, and felt weird about her deification in AC/C lmao so it's not an Aerith bias on my part. I was always a Tifa girl and Aerith didn't become one of my favourite characters until Remake / ToTP and revisiting Crisis Core as an adult. But even when I didn't like her, Aerith just took over my brain tbh. There's just something special about her connection with Cloud. Like it's stereotypical on paper but very fresh in its overall execution imo.

 

[Ryeleigh]

So what I mean by "owed". Is usually there's this sense in manga that the most devoted one should win by default and the new person that comes into the protagonist life is an evil snake trying to steal the protagonist away from said childhood friend. As if childhood friend and protagonists need to be soulmates because they grew up together. Not always but the conflict added to the story is usually the new person ruining things.

To be fair, sometimes the character doing this is another childhood friend, lol. Side-eyes Would You Give Your Heart to Me?

Anyway, I don't think FF7 did that with Aerith and Tifa. But to kind of stay on topic, I've noticed that people also do this thing where they force characters and ships into particular (usually their favourite) tropes even if said characters and ships don't fit those tropes. To be honest, it's one of those things that I don't personally get because if people need to erase characters' canon characterizations and dynamics to make them fit specific tropes, it's like, what do they actually like about the ship...? But it might partially explain why people see Tifa as the clingy childhood friend who doesn't take a hint after years of indifference because it is a trope?

(Also stuff like Kakao 79% is not bad as the characters are actually aware of their feelings and there is different types of conflicts and LovelyComplex because well, Lovely Complex.)

Lovely Complex. <3

@Ryeleigh well the train scene for one. Also how the tragedy of it is just so avoidable and all the missed chances because the characters make choices they could have not made. They don't say anything to eachother and it's like argghhhhh XD I love it but it's a frustrating watch lol.

Oh, it's been years since I've seen 5cm, I don't remember the train scene. But from what I remember of it, I always thought the mundane human tragedy was the point, though I guess 'tragedy' is kind of too heavy a word for it. It's like, they were kids. Trying at a long-distance relationship and obviously it wasn't going to work. I considered the ending more bittersweet than tragic since the guy did smile when he saw the girl married (and with a child...?), meaning he could also move on with his life instead of yearning for ifs. But you probably already know all this since you love the movie. xD Unless there's some other 5cm per second and I'm totally confusing the movies, at which point you can just ignore me, lol.

Spoilered just in case someone here wants to see the movie.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

To be fair, sometimes the character doing this is another childhood friend, lol. Side-eyes Would You Give Your Heart to Me?

Anyway, I don't think FF7 did that with Aerith and Tifa.

Oh yeah it definitely didn't do that. As I was pointing out I was being biased back then because that's been my experience with the childhood friend trope. And basically seeing CT as childhood friends with a promise made me originally go "yeah no screw this" and not want to give them a chance. But I appreciate the subversion of the tropes within CT and even with the way the devs treated Tifa and Aerith. They're subversions of the tropes they represent. And that's why I really appreciate FF7. Especially in terms of characterization and dynamics. They're not just cookie cutter tropes 1:1 they're subversions of popular tropes. And that's genius.

I will also add I say I don't like Childhood Friends but one of my favorite ships of all time IS a childhood friends couple Edward xWinry from FMA and I was really active in the Edwin fandom for years. An exception to the rule for me but still. I never had an issue with them It just goes to show what we like and hate isn't ever really logical lol.

 

[abzy1200]

To be honest, it's one of those things that I don't personally get because if people need to erase characters' canon characterizations and dynamics to make them fit specific tropes, it's like, what do they actually like about the ship...?

I get this feeling with so many things. Not just FF7 ships, not just ships either. When you change soooooo much about a character(s) to make something happen...then are they really the same character(s)? Like a ship of Theseus situation.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I get this feeling with so many things. Not just FF7 ships, not just ships either. When you change soooooo much about a character(s) to make something happen...then are they really the same character(s)? Like a ship of Theseus situation.

While that is true I think. In terms of fanon and creating like art, fanfiction like shipping characters with our OCs stuff like that it does serve it's purpose.

I don't think in those cases they're actually meant to be the same character. Just Barbies to borrow. And I don't think that's really wrong even though I personally don't indulge in stuff that's too OOC for me. For others if they like that. All the power to them.

(I say as I gush over my fanfiction drafts of Sephiroth meet cutes in coffee shops because he's a barista at said coffee shops)

 

[abzy1200]

I don't think in those cases they're actually meant to be the same character. Just Barbies to borrow. And I don't think that's really wrong even though I personally don't indulge in stuff that's too OOC for me. For others if they like that. All the power to them.

Oh yeah absolutely, as long as no one is being harmed, let people enjoy things.

 

[Ryushikaze]

To be fair, sometimes the character doing this is another childhood friend, lol. Side-eyes Would You Give Your Heart to Me?

Or closer to home, Kain Highwind.

Anyway, I don't think FF7 did that with Aerith and Tifa. But to kind of stay on topic, I've noticed that people also do this thing where they force characters and ships into particular (usually their favourite) tropes even if said characters and ships don't fit those tropes. To be honest, it's one of those things that I don't personally get because if people need to erase characters' canon characterizations and dynamics to make them fit specific tropes, it's like, what do they actually like about the ship...? But it might partially explain why people see Tifa as the clingy childhood friend who doesn't take a hint after years of indifference because it is a trope?

I mean, it is, but it's sort of like saying that "A villainess with princess curls is a trope, therefore all characters with princess curls must be the villainess"
And yes, lots of people become fixated on an idea they had of a character based on an initial impression and refuse to adjust and try and shoehorn everything into that understanding of the character. Like Sephiroth wives who want to woobify him.
And now I'm thinking about ShinRa High and how everyone got done dirty in that one.

 

[Skilganon]

A trope is just a pattern in story-telling. Cloud and Tifa weren't even close friends as kids, but the childhood friend trope is always applied to them because that's the initial impression you get. But then you get you figure out why they weren't close. The expectations of the trope are part of the plot-twist later on. That's the kind of subversion I like.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I get this feeling with so many things. Not just FF7 ships, not just ships either. When you change soooooo much about a character(s) to make something happen...then are they really the same character(s)? Like a ship of Theseus situation.

While that is true I think. In terms of fanon and creating like art, fanfiction like shipping characters with our OCs stuff like that it does serve it's purpose.

I don't think in those cases they're actually meant to be the same character. Just Barbies to borrow. And I don't think that's really wrong even though I personally don't indulge in stuff that's too OOC for me. For others if they like that. All the power to them.

(I say as I gush over my fanfiction drafts of Sephiroth meet cutes in coffee shops because he's a barista at said coffee shops)

For me it's like... I would think that the fun part is making the characters (in a ship or otherwise) work as themselves instead of just basically borrowing their skins? But anyway, people are different and they're free to do what they want. Just as I'm free not to read that stuff. xD Especially when it goes so far as to depict an ill-timed kiss as rape and the character as a sexual abuser because of it.

Or closer to home, Kain Highwind.

Ah, I haven't yet got to FFIV.

Like Sephiroth wives who want to woobify him.

People do that with all villains, antagonists and bad boys. Though, I think it's more aggravating when the source material does that, lol.

And now I'm thinking about ShinRa High and how everyone got done dirty in that one.

I have no idea what that is and I have a feeling I'm better off not knowing. xD

 

[MelodicEnigma]

For me it's like... I would think that the fun part is making the characters (in a ship or otherwise) work as themselves instead of just basically borrowing their skins? But anyway, people are different and they're free to do what they want. Just as I'm free not to read that stuff. xD

Lol I actually get this, but also the other side as well, which would be surprising for most of my mutuals (@LunarTarotGirl lmao) because I'm typically such a strict person.

Back in the day (2003 lol), I used to roleplay online, which was basically like DnD/Larping but for writers—I guess it's not much of a thing anymore as no one talks about doing it as much. There'd be some "games" where you'd have an OC and do your thing, but the majority of time, it was based on pre-existing worlds/crossovers and playing as those characters. No one cared about being "in-character" for them either, it was for the fun and fascination of playing these characters in these made-up scenarios. It was fun to pretend Goku was going to highschool with Sailor Moon and Inuyasha characters. XD I also think my foundation for being okay with OOC comes from reading fanfiction, as looking back, the majority of my favorite fics have characterization that is varied from the real thing. Some fics were dependent upon it, as young me had to figure out what the hell a "lemon" had to do with a genre, so. lol

But I also understand the other side, because eventually I became a more strict, logical person. The correlation stems from when people made it not about the fun, and more of pushing OOC value onto the actual characters themselves and people in a negative way. Which would be fine in a creative, personal space where no one should care, but when people start being nasty and irrational over it, then it makes it hard to have real discussions or even FOR people to have fun. People become indignant and protective of their headcanons now. I also think it is great to see fan works that depict things closer to the source in creative ways as well, but it isn't a necessity still I'd say.

As long as people are letting things be what they are, it tends to be non-disruptive. But "what is what" gets kind of lost now 20+ years later, and I'm sure it was the same back then too, but I didn't see it as much personally. Though I guess that just makes me sound like an old man talking about the "good ol' days". lol

 

[Ryushikaze]

For me it's like... I would think that the fun part is making the characters (in a ship or otherwise) work as themselves instead of just basically borrowing their skins? But anyway, people are different and they're free to do what they want. Just as I'm free not to read that stuff. xD Especially when it goes so far as to depict an ill-timed kiss as rape and the character as a sexual abuser because of it.

Honestly I don't think any of the people spouting that actually believe that. It's just sour grapes earth salting because the other side got kisses.

Ah, I haven't yet got to FFIV.

What? Go play it! It will take no time at all!

People do that with all villains, antagonists and bad boys. Though, I think it's more aggravating when the source material does that, lol.

I think most of the time the source material is usually going "the villain used to be a good person before the dark turn" as opposed to "the villain can do no wrong" which is what I see the fans doing.

I have no idea what that is and I have a feeling I'm better off not knowing. xD

Hilariously bad Self Insert and High School story that's not meant to be an AU but the "actual" story of Sephiroth as written by an extremely Emo Sephiroth fan who believed he was a real person.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I also think my foundation for being okay with OOC comes from reading fanfiction, as looking back, the majority of my favorite fics have characterization that is varied from the real thing.

For some reason, I'm more lenient with OOCness in doujinshi than fanfiction. XD Maybe the pretty pictures help, lol?

Some fics were dependent upon it, as young me had to figure out what the hell a "lemon" had to do with a genre, so. lol

Lol! xD

The correlation stems from when people made it not about the fun, and more of pushing OOC value onto the actual characters themselves and people in a negative way. Which would be fine in a creative, personal space where no one should care, but when people start being nasty and irrational over it, then it makes it hard to have real discussions or even FOR people to have fun. People become indignant and protective of their headcanons now.

Yeah, I can definitely think of examples of that. To be honest, I get it to an extent because if I had to read about my favourite characters being twisted into something completely different from their original selves, it'd be so psychically painful I can't even tell. xD So to save myself from the pain, I just avoid all online content of my favourite characters, lol.

Honestly I don't think any of the people spouting that actually believe that. It's just sour grapes earth salting because the other side got kisses.

The spoilered part was actually about another fandom but I guess people were saying that about CT too? And yeah, in that other fandom it was also very much about sour grapes earth salting, lol.

What? Go play it! It will take no time at all!

Lol, for some reason I don't quite believe you. xD But I'll get to it eventually! I'm currently sidetracked with another game series.

I think most of the time the source material is usually going "the villain used to be a good person before the dark turn" as opposed to "the villain can do no wrong" which is what I see the fans doing.

I could definitely give an example but that stuff is kind of subjective and people tend to be defensive of characters they like. So I don't want to potentially derail the very important LTD talk with another work of fiction, lol.

Hilariously bad Self Insert and High School story that's not meant to be an AU but the "actual" story of Sephiroth as written by an extremely Emo Sephiroth fan who believed he was a real person.

Ah, I knew I was better off not knowing, lol. Well, I guess it was still better than Dragonball Evolution since that movie actually cost money, lmao.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The spoilered part was actually about another fandom but I guess people were saying that about CT too? And yeah, in that other fandom it was also very much about sour grapes earth salting, lol.

Do tell.

Lol, for some reason I don't quite believe you. xD But I'll get to it eventually! I'm currently sidetracked with another game series.

I completed two different editions of it within the same day once. It goes by quick.

I could definitely give an example but that stuff is kind of subjective and people tend to be defensive of characters they like. So I don't want to potentially derail the very important LTD talk with another work of fiction, lol.

Oh, by all means, derail away. GLD and I have had some extended derails before.

Ah, I knew I was better off not knowing, lol. Well, I guess it was still better than Dragonball Evolution since that movie actually cost money, lmao.

Ironically, if it didn't have the name it does, DB:E would be an okay to mediocre martial arts adventure film, instead of a really shitty adaptation.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I completed two different editions of it within the same day once. It goes by quick.

Really? To be honest, that would be so nice after sinking 50+ hours into this game I'm currently playing and I'm still not at the end.

Ironically, if it didn't have the name it does, DB:E would be an okay to mediocre martial arts adventure film, instead of a really shitty adaptation.

Yeah, it was just a very mediocre martial arts film but a very bad high school AU of Dragon Ball.

Do tell.

Oh, by all means, derail away. GLD and I have had some extended derails before.

I think I would feel more comfortable just DMing you if that's okay? ^^;