SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

I'm not one to comment much around here, but I'm always reading your discussions. I love this space because I feel that people debate in a civilized manner, even though they may have different perspectives. That said, I’d like to share some thoughts.

Initially, I was also one of those who thought Cloud and Tifa kissed too soon, but after thinking it over, I believe it was for the best.

If, in 1997, some people were already upset when, midway through the game, the Lifestream twist revealed that Tifa was the true love interest, imagine how much worse it would have been if, in the remakes, we had spent eight years and two games with them seemingly in a platonic relationship.

By the time Part 3 came out and the twist happened, people who had spent years believing that Aerith was the true love interest would have felt deceived, as if the revelation had come out of nowhere.

A large portion of Clotis would have hated the first two games, while a significant number of new players would have become Clerith, further increasing the number of people dissatisfied with the twist.

But now, no one can claim they were misled or anything like that. Anyone who is intellectually honest with themselves already has a sense of where this story is heading.

What I am saying by too early is that even if Tifa brings forth real Cloud, he’s still not himself. So him kissing Tifa is too early in that sense he is not able to confirm who he is and the depth of his feelings for her yet.

Now yes of course CT has been developed differently and way better than in the OG. To me they shine the brightest here. The 4k definitely helps Tifa’s complex character and characterisation. Nojima definitely made me fall in love with that relationship all over again. I say it often but the OG was so busy misguiding the players that CT felt odd: it was either a grand revelation like it was for me, either people tossed it aside because eh? There was Aerith in between those memories and now tho, so must be the past! With the trilogy, CT will feel very earned and way more satisfying.

@LunarTarotGirl the devs never took it like that actually. That’s what I’m saying, none of the dates happen, they are all what ifs situations to show the players the relationships between Cloud and the others, but they did not happen. In reality no one showed up in front of Cloud’s door. We definitely are meant to see them all, but in the story none are there, which is my point.

 

[null]

By the way... when we say "canon", do we all agree on what that means?

To me, "canon" refers to the "reality" of a fictional setting as determined by its author. Both entire works and individual facts can be canon. Author intent is key - I can have choice and interpretation as part of my own experience, and may find common ground with many others, but only what the author considers "real" is canon.

So, a "canon" romance is one the author considers to be real within the fictional setting. But again, I'm not sure we all agree on what "romance" means either.

To me, romance is characters having mutual feelings for each other. They don't have to be in a relationship or have straight-up physical intimacy, though they should be progressing - or at least pulled - in that direction. It doesn't have to be ideal or healthy either, as long as they come running for each other when it matters. Mal and Inara from Firefly are a good example of (my idea of) a canon romance where they're not "together". Same with Jean Grey and Wolverine.

Of course, your definitions of canon and romance may be totally different from mine.

To be fair, sometimes authors aren't always clear about what they consider "real". Sometimes they deflect or run away screaming when asked (or even before they're asked). But if the story itself is clear, that should be enough to convey intent. And as Hamaguchi stated, the FFVII writers speak about romance through the content itself.

 

[Eerie]

Personally, unless told otherwise, I consider everything in game as canon. For the GS dates, the devs clearly said they were not canon, so I do not consider them as events that happened, but events that allow you to dive deeper into what kind of relationship Cloud has with your favourite character.

As such, I consider all side quests as canon. There are however answers from Cloud that are OOC. I do not consider the worst answers as canon, nor necessarily the best answers as canon either (typically, I would say that Cloud would never admit to watching Tifa from the water tower in Nibelheim, as we also are clearly told that his feelings for her are something he hides, even to Zack from who he was the closest). The OOC anwsers are something that was bothering Nojima a lot.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@LunarTarotGirl the devs never took it like that actually. That’s what I’m saying, none of the dates happen, they are all what ifs situations to show the players the relationships between Cloud and the others, but they did not happen. In reality no one showed up in front of Cloud’s door. We definitely are meant to see them all, but in the story none are there, which is my point.

Yes in canon of the story itself "none of the dates happen" in the main scenario because it happens separate from the main scenario.

When we play the dates "happen" in our perspective in our specific playthrough this doesn't mean it actually happens. But that's why people are saying "this or that is canon".
Because they're using a different definition of canon.

It's side content so I think that's a given with all side content is not canon. But side content really does exist in its own bubble separate from the main scenario. And in its own what if scenario you can still see there is intentional choices made.

And either way that intention for each date would still be something they want you to experience in a way that doesn't contradict the main scenario. Things don't need to be canon to still be intentional is my point.

This "debate" people have is based on the wrong questions.
The question should not be: What is canon? Rather: What did they want to show me with this scene?

They want to have CT kiss and people to see that. And they want you to see Aerith's date and Barrett's and Red's and Yuffie's and boys night. And they really want people to see Aerith and connect her with Loveless. And as I pointed out they wanted that independent from getting her as a date.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Death of the Author take: everything that a player experiences and interprets is more canon than what has been or will be clarified in an interview with the author(s).

Therefore, if 50%+ of the playerbase got the Tifa date, it doesn’t matter if that date is not canon from the perspective of the author(s). Cloud kissing Tifa is canon for the people that experienced it.

You can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube. Therefore, you have to give the people what they want. And the people demand the Highwind scene.

 

[eleamaya]

Yeah, cmiiw in that interview, Nojima said that writing those reminded him of Romancing SaGa, and he actually didn't want it. I'm not familiar with the game, so I check Wiki:

Romancing SaGa is a Squaresoft's role-playing video game where the player takes on the role of eight different protagonists, playing through their narratives and an overarching story in a nonlinear style. While each character has their own personal quest, they are drawn into the quest for the Fatestones. In Minstrel Song, the characters are overseen in their quest by the Minstrel, a figure who is secretly an avatar of Elore. Once enough Fatestones are collected, the chosen protagonist faces the reawakened Saruin, defeating him for good. If Minstrel Song is cleared with all eight characters, a final scene shows them talking together, then setting out as a group watched over by the Minstrel.

So, he treats the affection system and the gold saucer date like that. Though, in FF7 Rebirth, if we clear all the dates with all characters, we dont get anything, right? And FF7 story only has one linier story despite the multiple Stamps.

 

[Eerie]

@LunarTarotGirl I will say it, but I definitely agree that they wanted us to watch all the GS dates while at the same time having them not happening in the story and being relegated to what ifs, so fans can point out what kind of relationship Cloud has with the different characters. They knew, however, that they had something big in their bag, aka Cloud's first kiss. Canon or not, it didn't matter. And yes, Aerith has to be tied to Loveless, that's always been the case IIRC so it's not surprising. But whether she is the canon Rosa and thus her date is canon are moot points. And I wish people would stop wasting time on this xD

@Dr Frasier Crane I have two hot takes: the first is that the devs don't think about the death of the author, especially since they know fans are supposed to read about the Ultimanias, at least; my second hot take is that most players aren't ready to engage with their game the way they wish it.

Let me explain. These past days I did something that I usually don't do: I watched a LOTR react. In the title the girl said that she was a GOT fan, so I wondered how she'd take the difference in storytelling: it was probably the best react I've ever seen (I sometimes watch reacts about music, BTW there's a classical musician reacting to Sephiroth' theme, you should all watch it). The way she engaged with the movies, stopping and thinking and managing to understand all the characters, their arcs, the characterisations, it made me really joyful. And I read the comments, all the people commenting were absolutely super happy that she did; one mentioned that it was extremely rare that people accepted to engage with the movies and let themselves be touched emotionally by them.

And somehow, that made me click; the way LOTR is, the way the main characters react and act around each other, you can see it: it's friendship born out of a difficult fight against evil. You see the tenderness between them, the care, the formidable bonds that link them all. Do you see where I'm going with this? Yes. I'm thinking about FFVII, Rebirth especially. To me, this is the kind of bond that Cloud has with Aerith. And the others. But Aerith, specifically. Look at Sam and Frodo, look at Aragorn with everyone, look at Merry and Pippin... it's all there. It's all the same.

And I can't help but think that it's the kind of bonds the devs wanted to portray in Rebirth. Especially with Cloud and Aerith because Cloud knows how lonely she is, he understands that she still loves Zack, and understands her pain. I don't think he ever saw her flirtiness as anything serious, just like with Jessie, to him that's how she was but she wasn't really interested in him (let's see if he's right on this). So he wants to dote on her, and she's fragile, she's not a fighter, she doesn't know life outside Midgar... and he promised to be her bodyguard, to protect her. But his gestures towards her are very alike the ones you can see between the Fellowship, very tender. And people are just not ready for it. Because mainly Aerith is interested in Cloud so it must mean reciprocity (even though look at Aragorn and Eowyn...). And also most players don't spend that much time thinking about what they just saw; when they do, it is that they are ready to engage with the content.

This is why people are confused by the ending: because they had the game telling them this whole time that Cloud is in love with Tifa, they had a great chance of having them kiss, but then, they arrive at the end, and they're confused by the ending. Even though Cody himself said it: not everything is romantic; and he probably knew back then that at that moment, Cloud and Aerith would look really bad. Aerith because of the dream date, and Cloud because of the handhold and his reactions during the date - even though he clearly rejects Aerith at the end, some people don't get it because he's not clear, even though Aerith herself is clear enough so that a big CA fan streamer actually made a really long face at that part: she perfectly understood what Aerith's words meant.

The illusion is to think that those scenes are romantic, because if they are, then what does it mean for LOTR? See people don't want to engage in shipping in FFVII, so that makes it worse because instead of pausing and looking at it, and trying to understand what is going on - which they should be doing as the devs want - they end up frustrated and not liking the ending because it makes Cloud looks like a cheater, Aerith like the worst friend, etc. Most people aren't going to play multiple times and even if they do, they will avoid the ending since they didn't like it the first time around. In the end, the devs created a problem with their ending, and instead of being hyped up and talked about in between Rebirth and p3, the hype is slowly but surely dying as they are still stuck, a year after, on the bad Rebirth PR that people don't like and that just fuels the LTD everyone hates even more than the PR. In fact I don't see much hype for p3 except coming from shippers themselves, the ones who already what's to come and expect and can't wait to play it. And even amongst them, there is most certainly a tiredness coming from the LTD.

 

[Pasuwado]

I will say it, but I definitely agree that they wanted us to watch all the GS dates while at the same time having them not happening in the story and being relegated to what ifs, so fans can point out what kind of relationship Cloud has with the different characters. They knew, however, that they had something big in their bag, aka Cloud's first kiss. Canon or not, it didn't matter. And yes, Aerith has to be tied to Loveless, that's always been the case IIRC so it's not surprising. But whether she is the canon Rosa and thus her date is canon are moot points. And I wish people would stop wasting time on this xD

The discussion about the canonicity of the Gold Saucer dates has been going on for years, and honestly, it’s an exhausting debate with little real purpose. At the end of the day, unless a developer publicly comes out and explicitly states, "X is the canonical date," no one can say anything for certain. And the truth is, that’s never going to happen, because these scenes were never designed to establish a single "official" path.

The dates at the Gold Saucer are structured in a way that none of them contradict the main story. The game never confirms a single version as "canon," and all future content in the series avoids invalidating any of the options. This works because the scene is more about Cloud’s relationship with the group than about a fixed event in the story.

A good example of this can be found in the novel The Kids Are Alright (p. 101), where Evan asks Tifa if she has ever been on a date at the Gold Saucer. Instead of giving a clear answer, she simply says "maybe" and changes the subject. This shows how the story avoids defining a single path as official, leaving room for any of the game’s scenes to have taken place.

On a personal level, I see the dates as something that is canon within each individual playthrough. If, in my game, Cloud went on a date with Tifa, then that was the "real" version of the story. If, in another playthrough, he went out with Aerith, then that’s the valid version in that context. The game constructs the narrative in a way that makes all options plausible, without any of them directly contradicting the main journey.

But, as Lunar pointed out, I think the real question isn’t "Which date is canon?" but rather "What are the developers trying to convey with these scenes?" All of them are important in understanding the story and the characters.

Now, I need to say that for Part 3, I hope they don't try to add any optional scenes that are crucial to understanding the story or the relationships between characters. That would just reignite the endless debate over what is or isn't canonical, something that's been happening for decades and would likely continue until the end of time.

I realize that many people in the fandom want a definitive conclusion to the story, regardless of the outcome. What really matters to many — myself included — is having a clear and finalized version of the events, something that allows us to finally move on without the constant uncertainty about which interpretation is 'correct.'

Fortunately, from here on out, there are no more optional scenes in the OG. Not even the Highwind scene is optional. And considering that in Rebirth, they hammered home the idea that this is not a story where the player shapes the events like a 'choose-your-own-adventure,' it’s clear that the intention is to present a single, cohesive narrative.

This gives me hope that we won't have affection mechanics, optional scenes with major impact, or, worse, multiple endings in Part 3. At this point, it seems like the developers want to tell a single story, not create multiple divergent possibilities.

But maybe that's just my optimistic side speaking...

 

[Skilganon]

Authors usually don't have the same idea of canonicity or cohesion of story that fan communities do. If they did, we wouldn't have so many non-canon crossover events and games like KH, Dissidia, and EC. Canonicity is a way for fan communities to create a hierarchy of importance in the vain attempt to organize all the FFVII-related material.

Fiction has no rules. You can write a character going on multiple dates, each with a different partner, all in the same time-frame. The fans who make claims about a canon date are attempting to make the story whole, to iron out any details they find inconvenient. Meanwhile, the author doesn't feel any compulsion to explain.

The author wants you to enjoy the story. They aren't going to refute claims of canonicity, because they know that would devalue the story to many people. To the author, everything is equally canon, all at the same time. But to the fan, this just means that nothing is. Canonicity in fan communities is a hierarchy. Some events need to be unimportant in order for others to be important.

The longer a story goes on, the more expectations are built in the mind of the reader/player. These expectations can, overtime, seem like a restriction on the freedom of the artist. So I completely understand the urge to do things differently. This is why I don't think they will go with the exact same ending as the OG.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Pasuwado @Skilganon

I think you're both right. Canon is a way for fans to make sense of things. It's not really for the author who already knows their own story.

I have several stories I've written that have different versions and to me they're all canon. I've even changed up characters between versions. One character is now another. Another is now dead. One entire country I wrote as a setting in the first version has been combined with another and the storyline changed.
I retconned a bunch of stuff, things like that because I revised the story over the years. And at some point I decided to just make them parallel worlds of eachother to match with the lore better. So basically all versions are canon.
I just know if I ever publish something as a book or manga or something I would be a fandom community's worst nightmare lol.

As for Death Of The Author I feel almost all of Nomura's comments before and during AC were very much Death Of The Author. He would always say he wanted fans to think about it. If you watch his AC commentary it's very much like that.
He did this for Kingdom Hearts and a little bit during Chain Of Memories as well (though that's because he wanted to hide the mysteries to come). He seemed to change his mind and start giving clear answers and just straight up telling us everything he meant around KingdomHearts II and beyond.

Meanwhile I feel it's Nojima who's always told his story intent up front. Kitase as well has never really been one to tell the player to think about it; rather he just tells you. The ReTrilogy devs especially Hamaguchi and Toriyama are also like this they'll say acknowledge different interpretations but then tell you theirs.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Is this an argument that because there is something that references this moment later in the story, that it proves the canonicity of the event? And if so, does this argument not also suggest that CT's Gongaga near-kiss is referenced by the fulfillment of that kiss in Chapter 12? Because that is also hard coded into the mechanics that you can get the kiss that you missed out on if you specifically date Tifa.

There are no canon dates. The only thing canon is how Cloud acts in them to show how his bond with that character is at that point in the story. They are all written to fit comfortably.

Even if the game nods at this variable at some point, then it’s in service of that simple fact: to help it fit the static story.

Insisting on anything else is willfully ignoring what the devs have plainly said on multiple occasions.

Btw, I’m not aware of any compilation material that confirms Aerith went on a GS Date while Tifa does. Now this could mean Tifa is being cheeky and she hung out with Aerith at GS, so it doesn’t confirm anything… but it’s certainly more than anyone else?

 

[null]

Great points by everyone! I admit, there are really compelling arguments to be made that canon isn't decided by the author.

I think the Gospel of John is universally accepted as canon to the Christian Bible. But why is John's book canon and not Thomas? Who makes that call? It wasn't the authors - we don't know if John the Apostle even wrote the book with his name. It wasn't Christ himself, even though he's the source material and literally the Word of God.

What about John 6:51? "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Wait, so eating Jesus is canon? Everyone agrees this verse is canon, but there's disagreement on what it actually means, at least in terms of what's being ingested during communion.

The modern idea of authoritative "canon" originated with the Church, and to be clear, there were truly great minds and serious scholarship behind the decisions of what material to include. But the point is that canon was decided not by the authors, but by the audience of that material. Being accepted is part of what makes it canon. And that forces me to admit that my own definition is at odds with that observation.

Still, I don't subscribe to Death of the Author. To me, all stories are communication, and all communication is an attempt to convey meaning. Therefore, what the author is trying to say matters. I believe that we should make the effort to understand, even if that meaning is hopelessly lost or something we don't want to hear.

But I do acknowledge that sometimes ambiguity is intended, and we should assume noble intent. David Chase on The Sopranos ending: "No one was trying to be audacious, honest to God," he adds. "We did what we thought we had to do. No one was trying to blow people's minds, or thinking, 'Wow, this'll (tick) them off.' People get the impression that you're trying to (mess) with them and it's not true. You're trying to entertain them."

 

[Skilganon]

Yeah, the original idea of canon was groups of monks making arbitrary decisions about what books of the Bible mattered, mainly for political reasons.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Somewhere within the line of "canon" and it's different applications, is where I agree that the heart of the matter is that this means something different to the creators than it does the audience. That creates a sense of different ideas of who decides what—because fandom decides for fandom, and creators decide for their works, even in indecision. And that is on a definition and application understanding. There's also just the fact that within both perspectives, how the grander concept of canon is implemented can change based on the medium.

I generally don't like the way fans implement the concept when it comes to video games, because they're not working with what the medium is to try and understand how canon would/should work for certain things.

Majority of the time, an author is going to be concerned about "continuity", in the sense of events and timelines where it's applicable. Fans however are often more concerned with what is deemed as "canonical", in the sense of what can be viewed as authentic and "what counts" in representation, hence why even looking in paratextual sources for this very affirmation is a big deal. It's an establishement of value, not even hierachy or devalue, but for total elimination.

To an author, most if not all of what they produce is considered canonical by definition above, but they certainly have the power to decide continuity based on simply what they write and how they implement a sequence of events. But it's not like authors use that word often, or will give a town hall meeting about it, because this usually takes care of itself intuitively. Paratextal sources will also be used to say "here are the official products of this official timeline". Sure. This can also be based on the nature of the medium they write, and it's not a concern to point out.

But, I'd wager fans confuse creators.

If we're talking an optional, one version cutscene based on you say, entering a certain area of the map to unlock it—this would seem petty to argue over for continuity. Doesn't make sense to do for a video game in it's nature, rarely would it be a contention on an established continuity. People do this though, and I'm sure they scratch their heads at this fandom activity.

Now for interchangeable optional cutscenes like the GS Dates, or epilogue endings to game based on who you romanced, good/bad endings, etc.—stuff that can be different but the game continues or ends anyway—when it matters to establish a hard continuity, they will do it naturally because that's how a story works (e.g a sequel confirming an ending), and if they don't, then guess what? It probably doesn't matter to establish a feeling of "this definitely happened" as an event. It doesn't apply because its a gosh darn video game. Video games inherently make any of this easy to happen because of how they work with player experience and creating things to be "found". This is in its nature.

Then what's the problem? Why isn't this understood? It's just like ya'll said—because it ain't about a timeline. While sure, people argue about the GS from a perspective of canonicity as an event, we know this is bull. What REALLY is at the heart of it is wanting one to be considered authentic while the others aren't, i.e. canonical, and that's for all the other nonsense of which fans are concerned with. It's a masquerade of wanting value instead of a concrete timeline. Which just wouldn't matter if you knew it wasn't a continuity issue, but it will be made so if it's nature needs to be authentic or eliminated.

Thus we have all the flip flops of fandom debate and tactics. I mean damn, fans draw blood over whether a cutscene is canonical from whether an image was used in paratext source whose direct purpose is to just show what's in the game. Credits, a tweet, a related book, an unrelated book, etc. But fans use it THAT way, writers don't. Rarely are they in the same atmosphere of concern that this thought process creates.

But you know what? Then that's fine. Then just stay in lanes then, which is what I wish some creators WOULD do. Let fandom concerns be fandom concerns, and let what concerns the product be the creators. It gets messy when lines are crossed over as because everything stated above.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Somewhere within the line of "canon" and it's different applications, is where I agree that the heart of the matter is that this means something different to the creators than it does the audience. That creates a sense of different ideas of who decides what—because fandom decides for fandom, and creators decide for their works, even in indecision. And that is on a definition and application understanding. There's also just the fact that within both perspectives, how the grander concept of canon is implemented can change based on the medium.

I generally don't like the way fans implement the concept when it comes to video games, because they're not working with what the medium is to try and understand how canon would/should work for certain things.

Majority of the time, an author is going to be concerned about "continuity", in the sense of events and timelines where it's applicable. Fans however are often more concerned with what is deemed as "canonical", in the sense of what can be viewed as authentic and "what counts" in representation, hence why even looking in paratextual sources for this very affirmation is a big deal. It's an establishement of value, not even hierachy or devalue, but for total elimination.

To an author, most if not all of what they produce is considered canonical by definition above, but they certainly have the power to decide continuity based on simply what they write and how they implement a sequence of events. But it's not like authors use that word often, or will give a town hall meeting about it, because this usually takes care of itself intuitively. Paratextal sources will also be used to say "here are the official products of this official timeline". Sure. This can also be based on the nature of the medium they write, and it's not a concern to point out.

But, I'd wager fans confuse creators.

If we're talking an optional, one version cutscene based on you say, entering a certain area of the map to unlock it—this would seem petty to argue over for continuity. Doesn't make sense to do for a video game in it's nature, rarely would it be a contention on an established continuity. People do this though, and I'm sure they scratch their heads at this fandom activity.

Now for interchangeable optional cutscenes like the GS Dates, or epilogue endings to game based on who you romanced, good/bad endings, etc.—stuff that can be different but the game continues or ends anyway—when it matters to establish a hard continuity, they will do it naturally because that's how a story works (e.g a sequel confirming an ending), and if they don't, then guess what? It probably doesn't matter to establish a feeling of "this definitely happened" as an event. It doesn't apply because its a gosh darn video game. Video games inherently make any of this easy to happen because of how they work with player experience and creating things to be "found". This is in its nature.

Then what's the problem? Why isn't this understood? It's just like ya'll said—because it ain't about a timeline. While sure, people argue about the GS from a perspective of canonicity as an event, we know this is bull. What REALLY is at the heart of it is wanting one to be considered authentic while the others aren't, i.e. canonical, and that's for all the other nonsense of which fans are concerned with. It's a masquerade of wanting value instead of a concrete timeline. Which just wouldn't matter if you knew it wasn't a continuity issue, but it will be made so if it's nature needs to be authentic or eliminated.

Thus we have all the flip flops of fandom debate and tactics. I mean damn, fans draw blood over whether a cutscene is canonical from whether an image was used in paratext source whose direct purpose is to just show what's in the game. Credits, a tweet, a related book, an unrelated book, etc. But fans use it THAT way, writers don't. Rarely are they in the same atmosphere of concern that this thought process creates.

But you know what? Then that's fine. Then just stay in lanes then, which is what I wish some creators WOULD do. Let fandom concerns be fandom concerns, and let what concerns the product be the creators. It gets messy when lines are crossed over as because everything stated above.

In general, I can see and respect this perspective on canon and fanon, and I think your point about video games introducing a unique angle on it is interesting.

However, when it comes to the GS Date discussion in general I don’t think this how people are arguing it. If we start introducing this thought here, then why aren’t other optional scenes called into question? Why aren’t we arguing over Cloud’s canon responses that impact the affinity system?

Why aren’t we arguing that Barret or Yuffie’s dates are canon? Why is it Aerith’s date that must be more canon? Because there’s really only one date that must be disqualified from interpretation.

It’s because Tifa’s is distinct. All the dates have heartfelt moments between Cloud and the other character ( save for the gag one of course ), but why is it Tifa’s that’s being fought against?

Because if you take the dev’s words into account, then Tifa’s date sends a clear message that’s hard to twist without sounding silly in the process. Under the same circumstances, atmosphere, and point in the story, Cloud would initiate two romantic gestures with little prompting from Tifa.

If we want to factor in the church scene, then the game itself forces you to keep Zack close in mind. It cannot be untethered from the interludes, even if the reason is purely for utility purposes.

Not knocking anyone who wants to put Aerith’s GS Date in that slot as their preferred segment. However, it isn’t any more or less valid than someone who prefers Yuffie, Tifa, Barret, Nanaki, or Cait/Vince/Cid. All of them are consistent with the story you’ve played up until that point.

 

[Pasuwado]

Sorry for going off-topic, but it's great to see Zerith getting some recognition. The latest Crisis Core chapter in Ever Crisis also had several cute scenes of them together. To be honest, their reunion is what I'm most excited about for Part 3. Unlike Cloud and Tifa, whose scenes we can somewhat predict based on the original, Zack and Aerith's reunion will be something completely new and we have no idea how it will unfold.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

However, when it comes to the GS Date discussion in general I don’t think this how people are arguing it. If we start introducing this thought here, then why aren’t other optional scenes called into question? Why aren’t we arguing over Cloud’s canon responses that impact the affinity system?

Don't people, though? I'm pretty sure I've seen many of arguments in retrospect to canonicity surrounding the affinity system/Cloud's responses, not to mention the campaign of "optional = non-canonical" which went beyond the GS date alone—the two points would coexist as the latter would be used as an argument within the affinity system and low/high affection versions of scenes.

But either way, what you're saying illustrates my point—it's an agenda of elimination, in this case it's shipping motivated. And yeah, you'll have different sides who are out to eliminate one in particular, unless you have the ones who argue there's no value to any of them whatsoever as a middle ground. It's silly. So when concepts about canon are brought up, the understanding surrounding it in and of itself gets a bit compromised, especially for what would be a more firm grasp on how canonicity even applies to the medium—in tandem with better discussions on how an audience should perceive this application in a practical manner. Some people will think whatever is necessary to achieve the result they want.

Something I've always advocated, especially in my practical dissertation on canon in fandom years ago, is that honestly, we tend to talk about canon in situations where it possibly shouldn't apply, strictly speaking. Not without muddling things.

 

[AncientGrim]

Sorry for going off-topic, but it's great to see Zerith getting some recognition. The latest Crisis Core chapter in Ever Crisis also had several cute scenes of them together. To be honest, their reunion is what I'm most excited about for Part 3. Unlike Cloud and Tifa, whose scenes we can somewhat predict based on the original, Zack and Aerith's reunion will be something completely new and we have no idea how it will unfold.

View attachment 17462

Yeah it’s great to see Zack and Aerith’s romance being celebrated like this (plus I love that their flower is the yellow flower symbolising reunion…)

Cloud and Tifa also got a Valentine’s Day shoutout in a PlayStation blog post

Share of the Week: Romance

Players feel the love

blog.playstation.com

GameSpot also celebrated them alongside 10 other video game couples and romances in a tweet

x.com

x.com

 

[eleamaya]

Sorry for going off-topic, but it's great to see Zerith getting some recognition. The latest Crisis Core chapter in Ever Crisis also had several cute scenes of them together. To be honest, their reunion is what I'm most excited about for Part 3. Unlike Cloud and Tifa, whose scenes we can somewhat predict based on the original, Zack and Aerith's reunion will be something completely new and we have no idea how it will unfold.

View attachment 17462

As a Zerith, I'm not surprised at all. They've been always official couple in Crisis Core. I repeat, Crisis Core. And this is not the first one Square Enix include them among other FF couples in Valentine's Day post and article. What I know is the company always avoid the main game, I blame the LTD, and that's why we've been here till today.

 

[AncientGrim]

As a Zerith, I'm not surprised at all. They've been always official couple in Crisis Core. I repeat, Crisis Core. And this is not the first one Square Enix include them among other FF couples in Valentine's Day post and article. What I know is the company always avoid the main game, I blame the LTD, and that's why we've been here till today.

I honestly believe this will start to change (if it hasn’t already) after Part 3 comes out and the Retrilogy is concluded.

At the end of the day, even celebrating Zerith from Crisis Core in this way (and it’s worth noting they use a still from the Reunion remaster) is a clear indication and signal.

None of the other couples featured on that Valentine’s Day post end up with somebody else come the end (I can’t comment on the XIV one because I haven’t played it but if it’s the case where the couple featured does in fact separate or anything, by all means correct me)

They are all essentially, endgame relationships from their respective games and series.

And even if it’s not SE, the fact that other publications and official sites celebrate Cloud and Tifa love’s story, among other highly acclaimed video game love stories, is something worth highlighting too, as the developers of Rebirth had to know how their decisions regarding the relationships (in particular the decision to have Cloud kiss Tifa, Cloud Strife’s first onscreen kiss in the near 30+ years of FFVII being around) would be a step forward in respect to the LTD that they can’t walk back from.

The fact Zerith is once more being celebrated by them is a further signal that after Rebirth (though to many what Rebirth did was not necessarily needed, as the relationships have always been clear) a very clear line in the sand has been drawn.

 

[Xombii]

Whether or not each GS date was 'canon' or not, The story afterwards is said to be continued to follow on from ANY of the dates, which means even if he didn't go with Tifa on the date, their relationship is basically on the same level as if they did. Including their wanting to kiss. It's shown through the temple that they're closer and they have Yuffie talking about them as if it's a given that Tifa is there to keep Cloud in line. (Crack the whip) as well as it being Tifa that looks after him whenever he has an episode.

It's not too obvious or explicit because people didn't get the kiss, so it also needs to follow on from any of the others with some ambiguity.

Doesn't matter which GS date you went on, the relationships all grew regardless. The dates are like peeking through a small window to get more understanding.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

On the "validity" of the dates. I'm going to play a little bit of Devil's Advocate here first and talk about how people are projecting their attitude of the OG GS onto Rebirth.

A lot of these people you are arguing with are those that come with their ideas made up after playing OG.

Now let me put on my Devil's Advocate hat:

I personally agree that all dates are valid. But valid doesn't mean all dates are the same in terms of information they convey.
Especially if we looked at OG. The information you got from these dates out of all of them you can say some gave you more important information for the narrative than others.

If we looked at only OG I would have to fight you all on this because only Aerith's and Tifa's date would matter to the narrative at all and the other two dates were treated as mostly jokes with no real story importance. Sad but true. Then I would argue with Aerith's date gives us more information than Tifa's date in OG because again that's the first time she brings up the mystery of Zack and his connection to Cloud which is pretty huge actually. That's just a very important story beat.

Tifa's is her trying to say Cloud's not himself and about not being able to confess. I understand this is a very important scene for CT but in terms of the story telling we could have already figured out from this point that A. She has feelings for him. B. She's not telling him something. It's just not as revealing. Also she doesn't get to say anything anyway she's interrupted.
So in OG when you compare her date with Aerith's it just looks to me like the devs put the most revealing story stuff in Aerith's. No offense but we figure out Tifa's feelings later too so it's not like we miss anything if we don't get her OG date. But if we miss Aerith's date then yeah we completely will miss her talking about Zack's similarities to Cloud here as a huge clue to the mystery of his existence.
And no sorry I don't think OG Tifa hinting that he's not himself is anywhere close to the reveal here. Aerith's date in OG just seems to give the most information. I know many don't like to hear it but a lot of people that are not even shippers just see Aerith's date in OG as just part of the main scenario for that reason.

End Devil's Advocate Mode
--------------
So this is why many think already that Aerith's date is the "most important one" in Rebirth too. Even though this time it's actually not. The others are just as important.

Let me explain:

They're thinking of it in terms of how they thought of OG. Rebirth is not in a vacuum Rebirth is based on OG and so too many people are projecting their feelings about OG onto Rebirth but forgetting that things are very different.

Here's the thing though many of them arguing Aerith's date is still more important don't realize:

And that's that unlike OG the devs introduced Zack already. So Aerith's date is no longer as necessary of a reveal as it was in OG and you're not actually missing too much other than her confession which you will figure out anyway in the church scene that she likes him. She also says again later "The one I'm searching so hard to find" in case you missed her iconic line. So it lines up with the main scenario but the point is you're still not missing information.
They also finally put the mystery of Zack AND Aerith's feelings in both Aerith and Tifa's date so unlike OG if you don't get Aerith's date you are not actually missing anything about this either.

They also completely changed Barrett and Yuffie's date to include just as much important story information as the other dates, they're not longer just jokes.

They also connected Tifa's date to Gongaga where they almost kissed. It is a scene that is a culmination for something that happened in the main scenario so it's just as important as the other dates in terms of story. Tifa actually finishes saying what she was going to say. And as I said before it brings up Zack even if you don't get the Aerith date.
-------------------------------------------------
The devs in Rebirth have managed to to make all the dates relatively basically equal this time in the amount of story information they provide thus any old arguments that could have been made no longer hold true.

And I think it's kind of brilliant how they did it.

But my point is the problem here is people are assigning value to the date they not only want for their ship, but also think it's the most important in terms of story. And many are projecting the attitude they had for OG on to Rebirth. Which makes no sense because things are actually very different this time with how everything is handled.

That's why why you got so much argument against Rebirth Tifa date despite it being as valid as the others besides the obvious "this hurts my ship so I will invalidate it". Though I agree it should be treated as not just valid but equally important storywise.

 

[Eerie]

You know @LunarTarotGirl that while I can somehow agree with your POV for the OG, there are a few points I disagree with, having had Aerith's date in my first run of the OG before having Tifa's.

For Aerith, you can always understand it with both Gongaga and the LS scene. You can totally piece it without having her date. I still think that her date is for her own arc though, to allow it to close. But it's fine if you don't get her either. Because it doesn't prevent you to understand what's to come. Honestly by the time the LSS played, I had already forgotten about her words so... I think a lot of casual players are the same in the OG.

For Tifa, I disagree that she was trying to tell him something was off with him: she was trying to confess. That's what she was trying to do, and the Rebirth date being an extension of her OG date, it shows that indeed her date was 100% the romance one. I will agree with you on that point though, we already know she has feelings for him. In the OG, she voices her concern about him being true Cloud in Cosmo Canyon, so there was no reason for her to say it again - and she voiced it fully: "Cloud, are you really Cloud?", like there was no real hesitation like in her date.

And so. The path leading to the Tifa date is actually very important to understand her decision in Mideel. If you don't take the Tifa route, her decision looks awful, like the worst she could ever take, and I know that a lot of players have resented her for leaving the party for Cloud. Myself I was thinking in my first run "girl, drop that asshole". Tifa's route is really important to build a proper understanding of the NC scene and the Mideel scene, as well as the LSS.

For Rebirth, it's true that a lot thought that Aerith's date was the most important for the lore, but after watching all the dates, Max Dood himself recognised that he was wrong in thinking that way. I love that all the dates show Cloud's bonds with the other party members personally, but in reality there's not one date above the other and at the end of the day the devs still consider they don't happen in the timeline. It's just fanservice for the fans with their favourite character and it's fine, really.

 

[Skilganon]

I agree that Aerith's date is no longer the most narratively important. The Gongaga scene with Cloud and Tifa already introduce's Cloud's identity crisis, and that's non-optional.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

You know @LunarTarotGirl that while I can somehow agree with your POV for the OG, there are a few points I disagree with, having had Aerith's date in my first run of the OG before having Tifa's.

For Aerith, you can always understand it with both Gongaga and the LS scene. You can totally piece it without having her date. I still think that her date is for her own arc though, to allow it to close. But it's fine if you don't get her either. Because it doesn't prevent you to understand what's to come. Honestly by the time the LSS played, I had already forgotten about her words so... I think a lot of casual players are the same in the OG.

For Tifa, I disagree that she was trying to tell him something was off with him: she was trying to confess. That's what she was trying to do, and the Rebirth date being an extension of her OG date, it shows that indeed her date was 100% the romance one. I will agree with you on that point though, we already know she has feelings for him. In the OG, she voices her concern about him being true Cloud in Cosmo Canyon, so there was no reason for her to say it again - and she voiced it fully: "Cloud, are you really Cloud?", like there was no real hesitation like in her date.

And so. The path leading to the Tifa date is actually very important to understand her decision in Mideel. If you don't take the Tifa route, her decision looks awful, like the worst she could ever take, and I know that a lot of players have resented her for leaving the party for Cloud. Myself I was thinking in my first run "girl, drop that asshole". Tifa's route is really important to build a proper understanding of the NC scene and the Mideel scene, as well as the LSS.

For Rebirth, it's true that a lot thought that Aerith's date was the most important for the lore, but after watching all the dates, Max Dood himself recognised that he was wrong in thinking that way. I love that all the dates show Cloud's bonds with the other party members personally, but in reality there's not one date above the other and at the end of the day the devs still consider they don't happen in the timeline. It's just fanservice for the fans with their favourite character and it's fine, really.

If Tifa was trying to confess alone then I argue that it's even less necessary to get her scene. I already had realized by that point she had feelings for Cloud by the time I got to Mideel so I didn't see it as strange she would pick Cloud there. I was pissed she hadn't told him the truth but I understood she loved him and later on it made sense why she had not told him.

Tifa's words before Cloud falls in the reactor, her jealousy in the Shinra building, her waiting for Cloud in the Shinra building by the elevator etc. all those moments made it clear she had feelings for him.

As for Aerith, you say you can figure out the connection between Zack and Cloud from Gongaga. I really don't think it's the same. That's about her feelings for Zack sure and the mystery that he went missing. But not really connected to Cloud himself.
In her date she literally says she's searching for Cloud as a hint that Zack is connected to his identity issues. Something you just don't get from Gongaga. Aerith's date is not just about her feelings. And yes the Lifestream scene reveals it was Zack in Nibelheim but no where is it mentioned that Aerith's attraction to Cloud started from being reminded due to similarities with Zack which is the connection between Cloud Aerith and Zack and clears up the narrative there even more. It does close her arc I agree, but also without it I feel it's a bit of a gaping hole in not just her arc but for the connection with Zack. We get told Cloud heard the story from Zack and made illusionary world but Aerith basically tells us the extent of that: he did that to the point their mannerisms were the same.

Edit: It just also feels a bit anticlimactic and empty without this "I want to meet you" reveal where she admits her feelings on the similarities. Without it if feels like Zack's some random dude she once dated who she thought left her for another girl according to Gongaga....okay but why do we care? Her date is basically the answer on why we care.
It also is important to clarify her motivations. It explains why in the beginning she basically locked Cloud in her house and took the long way to stall him and ask about Zack. Without her date you never really get an answer other than "Oh well I guess she liked Cloud?" But there was clearly more than that there.

I'm not saying Tifa's date is not important in terms of her own feelings but in terms of missing information I definitely think not getting Aerith's date in OG does leave a giant hole in not just her story but part of her story with Zack. Edit: Even if you can figure it out without it's still feels a bit lacking and empty without it also she wouldn't get an arc resolution.

Also Gongaga in OG was completely missable so even more so. Zack in the LS would have come out of nowhere.

I don't see the OG dates as just fanservice. At least not Aerith's and Tifa's. That's just my own thoughts. However as I said they definitely changed it up for Rebirth.

Edit: clarified my point. Disclaimer: Also I'm not arguing Tifa's OG date is completely useless either in case anyone wants to twist my words to put her date down. I'm not doing that.
It's obviously important to her arc and doesn't contradict anything and it fits continuity. I just don't think you're missing out on crucial information if you skip it because her feelings for Cloud are kinda shown throughout. Whereas Aerith's arc feels weird and unresolved without her date.