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Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I'm not so sure. Some of them seem to be honestly/blindly passionate about it. :monster: I do not understand them. :monster:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Well, there are the misled as well as the misleaders, but...

Would this be in reference to the new faces over at FFF, by any chance? Anyone feel like inviting a few yokels this-a-way, or do we not wish to disturb the peaceful waters just yet?
 
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I don't know if they'd come, after how evil they have convinced themselves we/the rest of the FFVII fandom is.
 
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Well, there are the misled as well as the misleaders, but...

Would this be in reference to the new faces over at FFF, by any chance?

Yes, and it appears they happen to be the 'misled.'

Anyone who doesn't see pink is evil. I doubt they will come. Though it would be amusing to see them try and debate.
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Haha, "them". They're both the same person anyways. :duhard:

I'm sure they'd come along with promises of IchiRuka and cookies.

I wish these new faces... were good ones. T^T
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

^
O rly? They're the same? and o hai thar, i no u :monster:

Lifestream.net is, as far as I know, the only place with Ultimania translations right now. They'll come soon enough, I'm sure.

and just wondering: is there anything really significant regarding this issue in the original Ultimania?

also OT: are there ANY translations of the FF8/FF9 Ultimania anywhere???? Either there aren't, or I really suck at finding shit -___-
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Yep! Though, it's not really surprising. :monster:
Hello thar, dear.

Hmm.. that's true. I don't think they'd actually read it though. Just pretend to. :'D

I've never really looked for an FFVIII/IX Ultimania translations/scans, but I'll keep an eye out for you if no-one else knows.
 
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=looneymoon link=topic=53.msg1192#msg1192 date=1228802716]
^
O rly? They're the same?
[/quote]Cali is infamous for her mule accounts. She did it on ACF, on Gaia, she even does it on CxA to keep up the act. That, or she has a friend who's only online when she is to rant about Tifa being a clingy bitch and to defend her when someone offends her by saying Clerith isn't canon. Oh, and has her IP address. So while the second option is plausible, I highly doubt it. She also used to type the way awful way the second account there does, but now has change styles, I assume because so many people were accusing her of being the same person.
 

Fighter

Pro Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Clerii like FFF because the admins jump in to save them as soon as their bubble starts bursting.
 
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=Fighter link=topic=53.msg1213#msg1213 date=1228826226]
Clerii like FFF because the admins jump in to save them as soon as their bubble starts bursting.
[/quote]Because telling them, "No, you are wrong, this isn't interpretation, here's the quotes to prove such." is starting fights...I hate how there are still a lot of people out there who think that it's "your choice" or they have to be "neutral" on the debate. I say neutral in brackets because we know that being neutral in the debate means that you don't have anything invested in this like a preferred pairing, not that you consider both Tifa and Aerith, or consider neither, because in reality, there are four potential sides to this debate: Tifa is with Cloud, Aerith is "with" Cloud, Cloud loves both, Cloud loves neither.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

FFF?

I'd consider myself 'neutral' (and do), as long as it hasn't morphed into 'has no, and can have no opinion' again.

[quote author=looneymoon link=topic=53.msg1192#msg1192 date=1228802716]and just wondering: is there anything really significant regarding this issue in the original Ultimania?[/quote]
I personally think that the original FFVII Omega and subsequent Ultimanias have some pretty damning stuff in favour of Cloud and Tifa. Particularly the Highwind sex scene :monster:

Just the way they describe it, the phrases they use and how they write it, really seems to point towards Cloud and Tifa having forms a proper relationship at that point.

To go into more detail (because where would threads like these be without walls of text :monster:), the two that stand out most to me are (sure I mentioned them on ACF but here they are again):

- ??????
- ???????

I have a hard time thinking of a good, English way to put them (or remember what I might have put before), so I'll just try to explain them instead :monster:

The first is used in reference to the pair of them after the Highwind scene, and the second in both their profiles in reference to the Highwind scene. The first shows that they have a proper, full understanding of each other and their thoughts and feelings. The second is kind of similar, but just really sounds like a romantic phrase (especially by using the much more emotional '??' instead of still-okay-but-kind-of-plain '??'). Its usage, particually when written the way it is, seems more like a roundabout way to say 'they became a couple', suggesting a deep relationship was formed there. Although it was used on both their profiles, even if it wasn't the phrase implies that a mutual reciprocation of feelings.

Then, of course, koi--bito :monster: (Though in the Reunion Files and not the Ultimania.) I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.

Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, "hey, Billy's my koibito" while Billy might be all "woah, back off woman". However, we aren't talking about what Tifa thinks herself. Because this was Nomura, talking about a fictional character in the third person.

'Languages change' is something that gets brought out when this word comes up, which I don't disagree with. Because I can't understand some of the things kids say in English nowadays. But Nomura isn't some 17 year old school girl. He's a man in his 30s. I think he's more likely to use it in the 'old-fashioned' way from when he was growing up than what the kids are saying nowadays. Which seems to point towards to the tradition meaning.

Going further off topic, I don't think comparing 'koi' and 'ai' really works here either. 'Koi' might not be a 'serious and deep' as 'ai' (you have have 'ai' for your family or country or the world, but you can't 'koi' for those things without being weird). But 'aijin' (??, 'koibito' ?? written with 'ai' instead of 'koi') isn't really a more serious 'koibito'. At least not anymore. Now, it's more used as a euphemistic way to refer to extramarital partners.

Chinese got brought up at ACF, but even that doesn't work because Japanese isn't Chinese. IIRC in Chinese, 'aijin' (or whatever it's called in Chinese, airen?) is 'spouse'. Japanese 'letter' means 'toilet paper', Japanese 'run' means 'walk'. Comparing them doesn't always work.

It's stuff like this (the on topic stuff :monster:) which makes it harder for me to believe that Square intends for any continual Cloud/Aerith romance.

There was also another one, can't remember where, which mentioned how they lived apart for a while, using a word used when married couples live separately :monster:

:monster:
CM to break up my wall of text.

On this note, what does the English guide book for Crisis Core say in Tifa's character profile, specifically where they talk about her role in and beyond FFVII? As I recall, the English book is pretty much (for the character part at least) a translation of the CC Ultimania, so I was wondering what Tifa's profile said since it also used one of those phrases (the second one). I was wondering what they put for it.
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

On this note, what does the English guide book for Crisis Core say in Tifa's character profile, specifically where they talk about her role in and beyond FFVII? As I recall, the English book is pretty much (for the character part at least) a translation of the CC Ultimania, so I was wondering what Tifa's profile said since it also used one of those phrases (the second one). I was wondering what they put for it.

Here's what it says:
Personal data:
Age: 15
Bithplace: Nibelheim

Tifa is a young girl in Nibelheim who is hired as a guide to lead Sephiroth and Zack to the mako excavation facility. She is not a fan of Shinra and, although she admits to desiring a blonde-haired soldier operative for a boyfriend, she does not have a lot of nice things to say about soldier.

Link to FFVII:
Tifa meets Cloud in Nibelheim during the events of CRISIS CORE and their friendship carries over to FINAL FANTASY VII. Tifa has always liked Cloud and enjoys helping him restore his memory when they reunite in FINAL FANTASY VII. She ultimately lets her feelings be known near the end of FINAL FANTASY VII and the two can be seen living together during the evens of Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.

And lovely wall of text. ;)
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

FFF Is FinalFantasyForums.

Also, can I just say thank you for, and I do not say this with an ounce of sarcasm or scorn, saying what I've been telling people for ages now.

With regards to 'languages change', this is patently absurd. Yes, they do, but not in such a way that prior meanings are invalidated by new meanings. Especially not so quickly. Even then, in the right context 'awful' is a positive word.
It's also absurd in that no source for these 'new' meanings outside the claimant's mouth.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

[quote author=CelesChere link=topic=53.msg1230#msg1230 date=1228842592]She ultimately lets her feelings be known near the end of FINAL FANTASY VII and the two can be seen living together during the evens of Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus. [/quote]
[/quote]
I guess that's good enough :monster: Though suitably twistable ("her feelings!", even though as I mentioned, it's mutual).

On the subject of twisting, there's a line in the Reunion Files where Tifa 'let Cloud know her feelings' numerous times, which people have taken to mean her romantic feelings. But it is specifically her anxieties and worried feelings.
 
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

With regards to 'languages change', this is patently absurd. Yes, they do, but not in such a way that prior meanings are invalidated by new meanings. Especially not so quickly. Even then, in the right context 'awful' is a positive word.
It's also absurd in that no source for these 'new' meanings outside the claimant's mouth.
This :monster: [/]
Even IF the word's meaning has changed in culture recently, the Clerii would first have to prove that this new meaning was in effect when the Reunion Files were published, not now. And then after that show that he would be using THAT meaning as opposed to the common one.


They use the word "gay" a lot as an example... but in context the old meaning is far from being gone, and in context you normally would know which one you were using.


I was wondering if anyone could think of one word that has two drastically different meanings and would cause a need for explanation since the context wouldn't define which one you meant. Because (let's pretend the Clerii are right for a moment) if he was trying to say that Tifa is in a one-sided relationship, and used a word that also has the meaning of a mutual relationship, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the word?
 

Isabella

Your Mom
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I've also seen it argued (poorly) that koibito could be referring to the past, when Cloud had a crush on Tifa as a child. Nevermind how little sense it makes for Nomura to make an old crush part of Tifa's defining characteristics in AC. What's your take on that, hitoshura?

Tifa has always liked Cloud and enjoys helping him restore his memory when they reunite in FINAL FANTASY VII.
Enjoys? Yeah, Tifa had a hootin' hollerin' good time in the Lifestream. Interesting translation. :-\
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Looking up FFF, those don't seem to be new faces at all :monster:

The problem with some people is that they seem to ignore what doesn't suit. They'll quote the same person but dismiss what they say when it doesn't fit in with that they want.

Like Japanese teacher on Tifa's 'roles/traits', if she had to say which one:
??????

So she'd think 'role'?
Ignore her, she's old. Listen to some other guy who said what you wanted to hear. She's good enough when she's saying it's vague and doesn't know what Nomura meant. When she's saying words change and young people might use them differently. As soon as she starts saying stuff that isn't pleasing, panic sets in to find someone new who will.

But if you're going to, that person shouldn't be a young person. It should be someone older, late 30s/early 40s. Ideally someone from Kochi prefecture like Nomura. Someone with a similar background, not one from a completely different generation.

Not that I need to bring up examples of the way trust shifts with some, I have myself as an example :monster: I could have said anything before and be believed without question, but from the same people now I butcher the langauage at any oppotunity :monster: I would think years later, I'd be better skilled. But the only thing that changes is what I said (said? I meant read :monster:).

Isabella said:
I've also seen it argued (poorly) that koibito could be referring to the past, when Cloud had a crush on Tifa as a child. Nevermind how little sense it makes for Nomura to make an old crush part of Tifa's defining characteristics in AC. What's your take on that, hitoshura?
I think in the context of the whole thing, it seems stange.

The word itself doesn't suggest when love is happening, that can change depending on the context of its use. But looking at the rest of the items mentions, I think they make sense to be in AC/post-FFVII.

- 'like a mother', given the focus on children and mothers in AC, seems to be the present. It could be FFVII in a way, with Marlene, but this is still a statement in a book about AC.
- 'ally in battle', is a 'comrade in arms who has fought together [with unspecified persons]'. Obviously that isn't pre-FFVII, and the verbs used originally are past tense and suggest an action having lead up to the present. By the end of FFVII, she has fought together with AVALANCHE, but isn't actively fighting past that. But in the present, she'd still be an 'ally in battle' anyway to whoever due to her past acts.

Something like that? :monster:

Edit; Also, the obvious thing I forgot and completely missed :monster:

It's strange to refer to someone's crush on someone as 'koibito' anyway. Because by implication, it means they feel the same about you. You're free to call someone you're koibito if you have a crush on them, but it would make you seem stalkerish to me. Like calling the woman across the street you never speak to your girlfriend. Again, I doubt Nomura would be using it in such a subjective way when talking about a character in a story.

Of course none of that matters when you have your own definition.

Japanese C/A fans didn't like 'koibito', actually (C/T fans did, obviously). But instead of twisting the meaning, they just went back to bashing Nomura for trying to glorify Tifa and push his own wants onto the game.

Sorry, I forgot all Japanese fans get along. I must have imagined the page after page of flaming and trolling.
 

Isabella

Your Mom
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Cloud's childhood crush doesn't even come up in AC, so why would that be one of her defining roles in the movie? Likewise, if her koibito is some guy other than Cloud :monster:, why allude to it in RF if you aren't going to even hint at it in the movie? Where's the logic here?

Also, I can't imagine koibito would be the first word he'd use if he were referring to the object of a childhood crush. I don't read Japanese, but I imagine there'd be another word that would better fit the bill.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

You posted while I was modifying my post :monster:

[quote author=Isabella link=topic=53.msg1245#msg1245 date=1228852791]
Also, I can't imagine koibito would be the first word he'd use if he were referring to the object of a childhood crush. I don't read Japanese, but I imagine there'd be another word that would better fit the bill.
[/quote]
I can think of a couple:
?????????? [koui wo yosete ita aite] - 'person who [Cloud] held affection for' (modified from another comment about Cloud's crush on Tifa)
???? [ichuu no hito] - this one seems perfect for describing Tifa from Cloud's POV. But it's more 'I'd like to marry you', perhaps?
?????? [kataomoi no aite] - simply, the person who [Cloud] has one-sided feelings for.

The first one would work, I think. It's not like the original sentence was afraid of using modified noun phrases like this.
 

Isabella

Your Mom
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Japanese C/A fans didn't like 'koibito', actually (C/T fans did, obviously). But instead of twisting the meaning, they just went back to bashing Nomura for trying to glorify Tifa and push his own wants onto the game.
But ... but ... I thought Nomura was a diehard Cleris and champion of the cause! :monster:
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I'm beginning to think there's some kind of alternate Japan, with an alternate populous and alternate Nomura :monster:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Bizarro Japan. Yes. It am not lovely not at this time of doob.
 

Fighter

Pro Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

Before considering whether Nomura used 'koi___bito' the traditional way or some modern slang way it would be nice to actually see a credible example of the latter even existing.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Re: Love Triangle Discussion

I can't believe this is our biggest topic, I thought we were above this discussion, lol.:-\
 
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