Naruto Anime/Manga (Manga Spoilers Not Tagged) [WSJ]

Naruto is such a badass. I like how he just chats to Kyubi, and Kyubi's furious threats doen't even phase him anymore. You know that's gonna be spinning in Kyubi's head for a while. I honestly believe that now, Naruto could take out the hatred of a "living mass of malevolence." Absolutely badass way to start the chapter.

SO FUCKING GLAD to see Nagato and Itachi together talking. But most of all,


Holy. Shit.

How did I never put together how Madara 'helped' Itachi before?

The Full Moon is visible on the night of Itachi's massacre of the Uchiha, and also on the night he attacked Konoha with Kyuubi, just like it's up now. He's probably using a variant of Tsukuyomi, (which means Moon reader) that doesn't need eye contact, but reflects his vision off of the full moon. This technique is likely the final one of the Sage's secrets on the monument that you need Rinnegan to read, which would make sense, especially since the Moon is supposed to be the body of the Juubi.

This would make it the normal version, or the precursor technique to the Infinite Tsukuyomi, because he can only affect one person at a time, rather than the entire world. With Sage, Uchiha, & Juubi Jinchuriki powers would allow Madara to amplify the standard technique to cover the whole world. That means that the normal justu that we're seeing now functions the same way, but on a smaller scale- by manipulation through illusion. When Neji looked at the full moon, Madara trapped him within an illusion. He's the best pawn, because he's one of the few people who might be able to identify the technique, and the medical team is going to rely on that.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out...

I can only hope that Kiba lets Hinata know that Neji's been injured, and she comes to check on him. If they can get another byakugan user there, she can probably identify that he's being controlled, and help to save them. Sakura might be able to cancel the genjutsu once it's identified.


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I'm just glad Sakura has finally made a significant appearance. 'Bout time.

Really liked the convo between Naruto and Kyuubi, shows just how far Naruto has come.

Wait, X-SOLDIER, I'm confused. What the hell are you saying? How did Madara help Itachi?

Are you saying Neji's being mind controlled because he looked up at the fucking moon?

Jesus. But why is no one else controlled? Why Neji? Why not Naruto or...anyone else?

...Now that you mentioned that, I notice that Neji fell over right after..looking up at the moon. What the fuck @_@

Smooth Criminal said:

Wait, X-SOLDIER, I'm confused. What the hell are you saying? How did Madara help Itachi?

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Madara help Itachi = make it easier for Itachi to kill his entire clan off, either by controlling Itachi or by controlling other people in the Uchiha clan when Itachi is fighting them

There are very few scenes in Naruto where we see a full moon and all of them are related to Madara in some way. Good catch X-SOLDIER. Do the people Madara controls know they are being controlled? It doesn't seem like Neji does.

Something weird about Itachi and Nagato: Everybody else under Edo Tensai has the whites of their eyes greyed or blacked out. However, neither Itachi or Nagato do. It's also worth noting that Madara isn't the one controlling them, instead Kabuto is.

Wow, that's some heavy, surprising shit. The full moon is a bad omen.

Smooth Criminal said:

Wait, X-SOLDIER, I'm confused. What the hell are you saying? How did Madara help Itachi?

Are you saying Neji's being mind controlled because he looked up at the fucking moon?

Jesus. But why is no one else controlled? Why Neji? Why not Naruto or...anyone else?

...Now that you mentioned that, I notice that Neji fell over right after..looking up at the moon. What the fuck @_@

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It could be like Obsidian Fire said, or Madara may have even helped Itachi by giving him an illusion, so he wouldn't have to see himself murdering his own friends and family, and would see them as enemies instead. I'm not sure how aware they are of the illusion or if it was Itachi's Sharingan that let him cancel it, but he still refused to kill Sasuke, and from what I've stated earlier, Madara needs any Uchiha who would oppose him dead.

The technique seems to be a variant of the version of Tsukuyomi that Itachi uses. Itachi's Tsukuyomi puts you in an illusion that lasts for ~72 hours in your mind, but only seconds in reality. As we know, everyone's Mangekyo is a little bit different, as are the techniques they possess. Sasuke can trick ANYONE, but only for a split second. Madara's seems to be able to alter what you actively perceive for a longer period of time, to allow him to manipulate you into attacking what he wants, but it's probably a less direct degree of control. Unlike Itachi and Sasuke's that require direct eye contact, he seems to be able to bounce the technique off of a clear full moon, and affect someone who makes eye contact with it. Hell, that might be the only way he can activate it.

The common part among all the techniques is that it only works on one person at a time. Madara's Moon's Eye plan would amp up his power enough to be able to use it against everyone at once. We initially assumed that this was some crazy technique that he would acquire once he got the Jubi and the Sage powers, but that's never defined. He's merely overpowering one of his own techniques.

And the reason for targeting Neji is taht his Byakugan might've been able to spot someone else under the influence of the Genjutsu because of their chakra disruption.

Obsidian Fire said:

Something weird about Itachi and Nagato: Everybody else under Edo Tensai has the whites of their eyes greyed or blacked out. However, neither Itachi or Nagato do. It's also worth noting that Madara isn't the one controlling them, instead Kabuto is.

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They're also the only ones with Doujutsu, so their eye color was probably easiest to leave unmodified.

Smooth Criminal said:

Wow, that's some heavy, surprising shit. The full moon is a bad omen.

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The fact that Kishimoto manages to pull this sort of thing off through hundreds of chapters, and subtly leave these little clues that he then comes back to is one of my favorite things about this manga. When you figure them out, it changes your perspective on everything that was happening, and lets you feel that these larger events were always in motion, even when we didn't know about them or have enough information to percieve them.


(Between Naruto & Doctor Who, I'm doing wwwaaayyy too much tripping out about the moon).


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Another scene that has the full moon is the Madara-Hashirama fight at the Valley of the End. Maybe that's how Madara controlled the Kyuubi?

Obsidian Fire said:

Another scene that has the full moon is the Madara-Hashirama fight at the Valley of the End. Maybe that's how Madara controlled the Kyuubi?

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I'd actually assume that's what enabled him to fool Hashirama that he was dead, and allowed him to escape with some of his DNA. I'd always assume that some type of Genjutsu was at work with the end of their battle. Do you know what chapter that's in?


EDIT: I just remembered that Shisui's Sharingan worked in a similiar way that didn't require direct eye contact, which is why Danzou could keep that eye covered. The fact that it worked with out direct visual contact might explain why Madara was disappointed that Danzou managed to destroy it. Plus, Shisui was known for his body flicker technique, which sounds vaguely similiar to how Tobi's space/time ninjutsu functions.


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Ch. 399 pg. 11 man that was a while ago...

On the page after that, Madara says everyone including Hashirama assumed Madara died at the Valley of the End and that everybody forgot about him. There's also a picture of the statues at the Valley of the End.

So, there's something else that I just noticed, that throws this into question, and brings up my previous Tobi/Madara theories: Madara's hair changes length at really interesting times, specifically ANY time that involves direct combat after he gets 'killed'.

He has long hair when he battles Hashirama Senju. We know that this is the true Madara. Then, a number of years later, during the attack on Konoha, his hair is short, and his left arm is made of Senju DNA, and is very unstable, and falls apart without being directly hit. This might be the first time we see Tobi, because his Senju body is at its weakest, barely withstanding a normal hit. While he alsohints at Madara being alive, note that he doesn't confirm that he is Madara.

Later, Itachi confirms that Madara is still alive, and he's the one in control. This should be certain, because he has long hair again when meeting with Itachi. This would allow him to confirm that the person he met is Madara. Since we now highly suspect that Madara was using his Moon-based Tsukuyomi genjutsu to help Itachi kill off the clan, it makes sense that he's not physically involved, especially because Itachi refers to him as being, "a pathetic shell of his former self." What's most interesting is that this description doesn't match with the current capabilities of Tobi in combat.

We should also note that we KNOW Madara posesses the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan in both eyes, whereas Tobi doesn't ever show having more than the normal 3-tomoe Sharingan. Now I'd come up with some interesting theories before, but now I think this makes much more sense. Madara can't risk dying, and if he's as much of a shell of his former self as Itachi says he is from meeting him in person, there's no way he'd risk direct combat. He also wants to control the world through illusion to avoid any risks. Now, we notice that Tobi's attitude undergoes a full change as soon as Naruto becomes a threat, and those plans need to be accellerated. Also, I doubt even Madara would be willing to stand directly in front of all of the Kage's in person, no matter how badass he thinks he is.

Now, for anyone assuming that they're the same person, it's important to note that Madara has long hair when he's controlling the Mizukage from the shadows, and fully reveals himself to Kisame. Kisame, having met him in the past, doesn't initially recognize "Tobi" as Madara, despite being "closest to him" until he reveals himself again. This, to me is pretty much proof that they're different individuals.

What I'm assuming is that Madara's Eternal Mangekyo allows him to target someone looking at the full moon, and take control of them with an "Eternal Tsukuyomi." As we see, it isn't until the 4th Hokage breaks the seal that his control over Kyubi is released. As far as we know, that would have been all it took for him to puppet the Mizukage. If this is how Madara is controlling Tobi, it would allow him to manipulate his perception to his own goals, while never risking any real harm to himself. The depth of the illusion could be simple, like what seems to be done with Tobi at first, and what I'd assume was done with Itachi to allow him to murder his clan. That would let them act normally, but allow him to influence their actions how he sees fit, and would help in infiltration. It also looks like he can fully take over, like he does with Tobi after things get more serious, and thus Madara's own persona takes over that of his host.

If Madara is manipulating things from the shadows, this will explain a few things: What's being done with the other Rinnegan eye, why his plan is to control the world through illusion, Tobi's persona differences, and why his hair changes length "at random."

While the White Zetsu clones look somewhat like Black Zetsu, it can be assumed that the Tobi clone from the Senju DNA would bear resemblance to Madara, thus Kisame being able to recognize his face, and it setting off Sasuke's implanted Amaterasu. Despite this, Tobi mentions that he had a "fail safe" otherwise he'd have died. Tobi is that fail safe that keeps Madara himself from ever being killed. He's a super versatile body of Senju DNA (that can be replaced fairly easily), and possesses a technique that makes it hard to hit. He's the perfect, high durability pawn for Marada to run things through. It's a perfect puppet justu in the form of a highly advanced Genjutsu.


Now comes the bigger question: he's looking to complete his Moon's Eye Plan one day from now. If that's the case, what is he doing by taking time to create chaos in the Ninja's medical team by taking control of Neji? Also, does that mean that he's temporarily dropped control of Tobi, or is he performing the jutsu through Tobi's Sharingan, like he did when he captured Kyubi from Kushina?

(This is also an important reason for Naruto's Sage Mode chakra sensing. It's likely the only way they'll be able to find the real Madara to confront him).


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If what you wrote just now, X-Soldier, is indeed the case, this means Kishimoto thought all that during more than half the whole series. Seriously, this man is way more amazing than what he's been given credit for. I am absolutely stunned.

Itachi and Nagato have a better grip on the situation then the ninja alliance has. It looks like Kabuto has the least amount of control over them compared to the rest of the people he resurrected as they still have all of their personality intact and are actually thinking about the "orders" they've received.

"Piglets don't have hands!" Tonton is finally useful for something.

I'd like to know how Ao of all people knows that Itachi can control people from a distance as well has far away that distance has to be. Personal experience maybe? He did fight Shisui at one point.

Naruto and Bee vs. Tsudane and E! Could Madara have planned the timing of this any better?

I just realized something. It hasn't been shown yet that Naruto, Kakashi or Tenzou have told Tsudane about the truth behind the Uchiha Massacre. If she doesn't know yet, that is going to be a crazy reveal for her, especially since she has no proof that Madara isn't lying. If she does, it's going to make it that much harder for her to stop Naruto.

All I can say about this chapter is,

LOL ZETSU

That was fucked up. I hate that fucking freak.

And I do hope the Kage's don't try too hard to stop Naruto and Killer Bee.

EDIT: Oh, and it's great to know Sakura's still the dumb bitch who's carrying the torch for Sasuke! She's more screwed up in the head than I thought

I'm really curious about what Shikaku is gonna do to remedy this situation. The Zetsu clones' greatest weakness is using social engineering to uncover their fradulent nature, but that's not a very reliable tactic to distinguish them efficiently, especially within a recently unified group like the Allied forces, where they don't all know each other very well.

Naruto vs. Raikage will be interesting because, depending on how seriously they both take it, it should give us an indication of how close he is in power to Sasuke (at least pre-eye transplant). Also - woot for seeing it in a color chapter!

Also, Sakura x Sasuke and Hinata x Naruto all in one chapter! *gasp*


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Apparently a near stab to the face and choke hold wasn't enough to extinguish Sakura's school girl crush.

I'm fucking shocked. That's some serious stupid, even for her, like...I can't even wrap my mind around it. Even Karin fucking wised up and said "screw you" to Sasuke.

Sakura apparently won't be satisfied until she gets penetrated by Sasuke.

With a chidori blade.

I thought the whole Sakura/Sasuke thing was more in response to the "he must be a really great guy" part than indicative of her still being in love with him - as in she's just remembering how the guy she was in love with turned out to be a total prick.

Or maybe that's just my inner NaruSaku shipper speaking. ;_;

Anyways, I'm excited for potential Naruto/Bee vs Tsunade/Raikage. Should be epic.

Seriously, just compare the expressions:



It's obvious she misses who Sasule was, but she's still bothered by the fact that she can't let go of it, hence the, "Thank you, but there's someone else I..." response when she declined his love letter, and then thinks of Sasuke directly afterwards when he mentions the person she loves.


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I'm such a NaruHina shipper, it's even painful.

Alright, now on to business! That Zetsu thing was... sort of unexpected, to me, to be honest. I thought Neji was being manipulated; oh wells. It's going to be VERY interesting. I love how Kishi just transformed the night into a crucial moment. Hopefully Hinata's appearing more, soon, and we're obviously going to see some Itachi and Nagato vs Someone, soon.

I know Sasuke was bashed quite a lot, back in the day, for appearing often and develiping "God-like" powers, but am I the only one who REALLY wants to see him around?

Alex Strife said:

I'm such a NaruHina shipper, it's even painful.

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*highfives*

Alex Strife said:

Alright, now on to business! That Zetsu thing was... sort of unexpected, to me, to be honest. I thought Neji was being manipulated; oh wells. It's going to be VERY interesting. I love how Kishi just transformed the night into a crucial moment. Hopefully Hinata's appearing more, soon, and we're obviously going to see some Itachi and Nagato vs Someone, soon.

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It's a pretty damn good tactic to wear down and eliminate an army over a very short period of time. I always wondered how he'd have attempted this without Kabuto's help. I'm more suspecting that Nagato/Itachi will encounter and chat with someone, before they're used in direct combat.

Alex Strife said:

I know Sasuke was bashed quite a lot, back in the day, for appearing often and develiping "God-like" powers, but am I the only one who REALLY wants to see him around?

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No, I'm itching to see him come back. That'll work towards his & Naruto's real (and hopefully final) confrontation. I think it would be particularly interesting for Nagato & Itachi to encounter Sasuke, though I think that's doubtful, as Madara's determined not to reveal where he is, unless Kabuto attempts to take him for his own purposes.


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Awesome Chapter.

I love his look in his current form, and the little horn spikes are just awesome.

I was a little sad we didn't see Naruto's planned move against the Raikage (Kage Bunshin hand seal?), but I've no doubt that they're on close to equal footing, which is good news for him going against Sasuke in the future. He's fucking fast, especially if Raikage was second only to Minato in speed. It's nice to know that speed still plays a very real role against the Sharingan, even if it's been downplayed a bit in recent times. If your eyes can't keep up, you can't follow it. I've no doubt that Sasuke can see him, but it's like that it's got justification in being a challenge.

I really liked that you see that this was a moment where, before his new seal, he would have gotten wrapped up in a Biju Cloak and flipping out for a comment like that towards his father. Instead, still really angry, but it's a cold and collected anger and not unbridled rage. This is a whole new Naruto, folks and he means business.

I've no doubt that B (Bee) is just protecting the new A (Naruto), which gives them a really awesome level to their relationship as the last two Jinchuriki. I've never really felt a strong connection to how they view each other until this chapter. It's also interesting that he & Raikage are not actually brothers. Backstory for the win. I'm also waiting for the moment that Naruto and Sasuke meet fists again, because that will be one of, if not the most important moment in all of the story.


Also: Bath House Full Color Spread was awesome.
(no Sai though for any fans, but their side was crowded as is).


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Jesus.... A is fucking scary. And he's full of black man rage if I ever saw it. He doesn't play around, sucka.

But I'm glad he finally woke the hell up and Killer Bee calmed his angry ass down. He was going nuts. I mean wanting to murder Naruto? Talk about overkill...

...You know what gets me is that this man is one handed. I totally forgot Sasuke burned up one of his hands with Amaterasu. So even with that handicap he's still terrifying.

I was awfully shocked him and Bee weren't actual brothers by blood. What an interesting twist.

B is a partner who not only brings out A's full power, but defends him as well.

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I like the idea that without Bee around, the Raikage doesn't have anyone else capable of keeping him in check. I think that's a lot of what Bee did before he started wandering off. The description of his title is interesting, because it makes him into a much more teacher-like figure that I didn't really pick him up as until now.

After Jiraiya died, I guess I had a hard time ascertaining how he'd deal with another mentor, because even while Bee is the superior Jinchuriki, they always felt more like equals, rather than a teacher & student. Now it seem a little more like Bee is Naruto's Senpai, and is just guiding him towards his full potential.

This chapter did tons to flesh out the Raikage & Bee as well as Naruto & Bee's relationships, because when you look at them, they act(ed) very similiarly. It still amazes how Kishimoto manages to change / refine your view of characters so strongly with such small, yet always very human interactions that defines how they came to be who they are now.


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Quite good, I must say. And I was always telling my friends "See? Bee (B!) and the Raikage look alike, they're brothers!! Fail on me, in the end.

I love it how Kishimoto's basically changing our perception on the whole series during this war. It's as if he already had a wonderful gift for us and was wrapping it in the nicest envelop there is. I am impressed.

Naruto is freaking "scary" now, he really is powerful, and he's starting to be the deserving son (if anyone still doubted it) of the 4th Hokage.

I knew that there was a point I wanted to bring up about the new chapter,

"I can't sit around while everyone's out there sacrificing themselves for me! If we win the war, but they all end up dead. It's all meaningless, I won't stand for it... If I just hid and kept myself safe I wouldn't even consider myself a human being. Plus-"

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While at first, this seems like the old stubborn-headed Naruto, I'm really curious what else he had more to say before the Raikage cut him off.

His quote later on, "The Fourth Hokage didn't fail at all!" is essentially proof that he's got confidence in himself, but moreso than that, he's got confidence in what his father expected of him - saving everyone from Madara. This is something that really defines Naruto as being different than before, because he doesn't have just a blind sense of self-confidence, and the backing of brute force rage anymore. It's funny that he's grown so much, even since his battle with Pain. The old moments of Kyubi grabbing a hold of his hatred and using him to wreck everything in his path used to be absolute moments of unbridled badass, but looking at what Naruto is now, those moments were the last that he had where, despite being more experienced, I'd really still have viewed any part of himself as vulnerable.

Iruka's letter was the proof that his 'older brother', the one living person who truly knows him believes in him enough to know that if he can't stop him, told him that he's confident in him. Naruto not only believes that he's capable of doing the things that other's have always hoped that he could do, he knows that others believe in him too. At the peak of that, with his new seal, for the very first time, he's in control of that now. This moment against the Raikage, although interrupted proves that Naruto really has what it takes to save everyone.


The other aspect is better covered by Bee's quote:

"I'm still an individual with things I won't give up,
Without those, I'm just another weapon for you to fire up."

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He says this after being told that the Jinchuriki can't just live for themselves, because they're part of the balance of power. He does acknowledge that the Raikage may be right, but this is still how he feels. It harkens back to the same thing that was brought up the very first time Team 7 met Zabuza and Haku. There's always a huge point being made about individuals being used as weapons. With Sai, we learned that even someone stripped of emotions still has boundaries. Jinchuriki have it even harder, because there's a stigma attached to them that circumscribes everything about their existence even beyond that of the other Shinobi. Like Naruto & Gaara, regardless of Country, Jinchuriki stick up for each other because they're the only people who see the world the same way.

While there's destiny involved with Naruto, it feels like one of the times that a prophesy is done right, where it simply tells what's going to happen, rather than mystically manipulating the individual into the position. This is all wicked exciting, because all of these core themes are finally starting to condense themselves towards a unified direction. Of all the years of storytelling, this is one of the times when it feels very strongly like it's moving towards a destination; one that might even be the end of the story.



There's one large thing still remaining that I wanted to start a discussion about: This is all going to lead up to the end of the war. I'm pretty certain Madara will be taken down in one way or another, but after that, we'll still have Sasuke around. My question is how much more of an arc do you think there will be / want to see before Naruto & Sasuke's final confrontation?



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This week, we got an interesting bit of back story about A & Bee. Having not had a proper bit of backstory in a while, it's nice to have one that's going for a little bit, and detailing characters who haven't been entirely fleshed out before.

Bee's evolution from a kid into a Jinchuriki was really interesting, especially seeing how it's different from Naruto & Gaara's lives, since they both begin as Jinchuriki, rather than being converted later in life. His and A's big/little brother relationship is hilarious, and really not like any of the other ones we've seen so far, which makes me really enjoy it.

Seeing A and Minato meeting in combat, albeit briefly was interesting. The technique of tossing his Kunai all around, and just warping constantly was pretty damn cool. I was actually surprised how quickly Bee's partial transformation was able to knock his brother clear from harm. It'll be interesting to see how impactful Minato's words will be. Naruto's father seems a lot like him, in that he fights against people he's enemies with, but still makes a point of sharing his insights.


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