Tres
Ariadne said:
Chantara said:
Not the point. When did the issues start? IMO, Cloud and Tifa had issues with each other during the game, too. Wouldn't Nojima be aware of that?
The domestic issues in CoT couldn't be issues during FFVII for the simple fact that the two weren't yet in a domestic setting. Things that haven't happened yet can't be an issue before they've happened.
Hmmm... I'm not sure about that, since the same issues often carry over to other settings. For example, my mother tends to get on my nerves with "over-protectiveness" when I'm shopping with her. If I stay overnight at her house, she does the same thing and I have the same reaction.
Anastar said:
Of course they can. Once again, the date mechanism makes the feelings mutual between Cloud and whatever partner you pick. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then the affection of that partner increases for Cloud. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then Cloud's affection for that partner increases, too. Same thing happens in reverse if Cloud doesn't act nicely to the partner. The partner's affection for Cloud decreases, and Cloud's affection for that partner decreases.
Therefore, if you get the Low Affection version, Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud and Cloud has a low affection rating for Tifa. Therefore, their feelings are mutual in the Low Affection scene.
You're still applying a gameplay-only mechanic to the set-in-stone narrative, despite repeated official statements that Tifa loves Cloud romantically. Within the actual narrative, this is how she always will feel.
The player trying to change it with a gameplay mechanic will no more change Tifa's feelings than leaving Vincent in the basement of the Shin-Ra Manor will make him not join AVALANCHE. She loves Cloud, and Vincent joined the team. Those things cannot be changed.
And you're going on the assumption that love can never change. You're acting like there can't be degrees of love or something, but there can. For example, there can be platonic love as well as romantic love as well as parental love as well as sexual attraction as well as playboy crushes. All are quite different in nature and all are experienced at a different intensity in different ways by different individuals.
What you mean by "Tifa loves Cloud" may be very different than what another random Cloti supporter means by "Tifa loves Cloud". You may mean that Tifa has an intense sexual desire for Cloud while loving him romantically as a mutual partner. The random fan may see it as Tifa having no sexual desire for Cloud and loving him more as a mother loves a child, like Nomura described it in the following excerpt from the Reunion Files:
"Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. Yet despite this, she continues working as the manager of Seventh Heaven without a complaint." ~Nomura; Reunion Files
Nomura himself is saying that Tifa loves Cloud there, but he's saying that she loves him from a maternal perspective rather than as a sexual partner.
So, despite what you say, "Tifa loves Cloud" can have many different meanings, and not all meanings convey that he is a romantic partner.
Ariadne said:
Not to mention you're still pointing to a scene that simply does not exist.
And which scene is this? The Low Affection version of the Highwind scene? How can you say it doesn't exist when the script for it is given in the FFVII UO? You told us that the scripts for both versions were given in the FFVII UO when you visited the CxA Forum:
What you just described is the high affection version and the low affection version. That's all there is.
Again, the Ultimania Omega (pg. 201) provides the script for both versions, and the high affection version doesn't have more than one reaction for Tifa. That one reaction is "Were you watching?" followed by crumbling to the floor. ~TresDias, Nov 20, 2009
Source:
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=297495&t=529440
Didn't you say that the script being available means that version is canon?
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
And I understand the 10th AU story summary has a picture of the Clerith date scene next to the summary of the date sequence. Does that mean the Clerith date is canon?
Que already cleared this misunderstanding up, but, no, the 10th AU's story summary does not have a picture of any date.
Hmm... well, I know it was featured somewhere. Maybe the FFVII UO? Sorry, I'd check for myself, but I don't have the books.
Oh, but I did find this from the FFVII UO:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/FFVIIUOimpressivescenes.jpg
It's the
Impressive Scenes pages, and you forgot to mention that Aerith's death scene is there, too. You know, the part where Cloud is holding a dead Aerith in his arms and saying,
"What are we going to do?" I always thought that it would be rather weird for Cloud to say "we" to mean "Avalanche" because Avalanche didn't know about Holy until Disk Two. So it's more likely that Cloud means "me and Aerith" when he says, "we". Then there's the pic of Cloud laying Aerith into the water during the funeral. Ye know, the same pic they used in the commercial with the caption "Love" over it:
The same scene which was re-enacted in AC/ACC, so I'd say it has some significance.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
But anybody who's played the game knows that he's talking about his feelings for her as a kid when he says that line. There's nothing saying that those are his feelings for her now, except on an optional basis.
The quote doesn't say "past feelings" or "his feelings when they were children." Just "his feelings for Tifa." That's straightforward.
But it
can't be Cloud's feelings for her now, except on an optional basis - even SE says so when they specify in the 20th AU that the HW scene has a deviation and when they specify in the FFVII UO that the HW scene has a Low Affection and a High Affection version. Plus, they give the script for both versions in the FFVII UO.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Shall I look it up for you?
PRECEPT II.--Treat different topics in separate paragraphs, and distinct sentiments in separate sentences.
Source:
http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Grammar-of-English-Grammars48.html
Yeah, stop trying it. You're really trying to argue that the two lines are grouped together separate from the rest of the shit on the page, but have no relation to each other? That those two lines are just randomly floating on the page, disconnected from any cogent message? Bull. Shit. You don't believe that.
And you obviously have no way to argue the point since you're resorting to insults as the only possible comeback.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Exactly my point. If it's not shown in the HA version, what makes you think it's shown in the LA version?
If you don't require it to be shown in the HA version, and you're relying on the description which says they communicated mutual feelings without words, then why do you require that it be shown in the LA version? Why isn't it enough that we are told that their conversation is apathetic?
If it's enough for the HA version that SE tells us what they said (or demonstrated without words), then it should be enough for the LA version that SE tells us what they said.
Yeah, except the high affection version does show us what we've been told it contains. We see Cloud looking for the words to convey his feelings, come up short, and then Tifa recommend a physical display instead.
You're inventing a scene that does not exist.
But I've already shown you that SE
does describe the LA version, and we know it exists because the script for the LA version is given on page 201 in the FFVII UO (according to you).
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Then why does SE say it exists?
Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega
If the conversation is apathetic, then the two of them are indifferent to one another.
Don't ask me to show where this happens in the LA version when SE says it happens. If you don't have to show where it happens in the HA version because SE says it happens, then the same standards should apply to the LA version.
SE didn't say what you're claiming they did. Not only is it absurd to claim that Tifa could be disinterested in Cloud, but you keep referring to this concept of a "disinterested conversation scene" as though it makes any kind of sense.
Fuck's sake, the word you've insisted on labeling "apathetic" ("tanpaku"; 淡白) makes more sense as "candid" or "simple." A conversation can be candid/simple and end short.
Which is another problem with your claims about the low affection version of the scene: you keep claiming that a quote that says the scene
ends short somehow indicates that a longer conversation happened after Cloud and Tifa said they were going to sleep.
LMAO... I love the how you randomly accuse me of things.
For your information, it was Quex who kept translating the word "tanpaku" as "apathetic". I always said that "candid" made more sense.
But no matter... fine, let's go with "candid". Candid means honest, does it not?
candid ~adjective
1. frank; outspoken; open and sincere: a candid critic.
2. free from reservation, disguise, or subterfuge; straightforward: a candid opinion.
3. informal; unposed: a candid photo.
4. honest; impartial: a candid mind.
Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/candid
So it means that Cloud was being honest with Tifa about his feelings and vice versa. How is that contradicted by calling "
Low Affection"? Cloud can't honestly say to Tifa something like,
"Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."
It's more than obvious that SE left out the actual conversations
on purpose because they wanted it to be left open to the interpretation of the player. That's also why the characters didn't demonstrate their feelings with actions in the movie, too. SE wanted it left open to the interpretation of the players.
IF SE wanted to canonize a couple, they could easily have had Cloud act it out with one of the girls with a kiss or embrace. Instead, SE tossed out subtle hints for both girls (although I thought it was more obvious with Aerith) in the movies, and left it up to the player to decide.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Well, if you don't have to pay any attention to our quotes, why should I have to pay any attention to your quotes?
I am paying attention to the quote, goddammit. I'm just not examining it in a vacuum like you are, and then applying the vacuum-sealed results of an isolated analysis to everything outside the vacuum.
Once again, let's get personal about each other's approach so that we can avoid actually answering.
Ariadne said:
You're ignoring two other quotes from Nomura that contradict your claim of what he said there.
Know why I'm ignoring them? You're the first person to PM those quotes to me. The only parts of this thread I read are the posts sent to me in PM. If you don't send it to me in PM, then I don't read it.
Ariadne said:
Ariadne said:
The one Que posted several days ago that was said in May 2004:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=369931&postcount=1382
More than a year before Advent Children was released, Nomura was asked what the relationship between Cloud and Tifa was -- and responded that the movie shows it.
Actually, Nomura didn't say that, according to Quex's post:
"What is the relation of Cloud and Tifa."
Nomura: I believe that this volume [the movie] is able to deeply grasp the truth concerning the relationship between the two. It's easy to completely explain using words but..."
Nomura said that the movie
grasps the truth concerning the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. He didn't say the movie
shows the relationship between Cloud and Tifa.
However, I think you're being too hard on Nomura. He obviously knows the relationship between Cloud and Tifa, but he said he didn't know the relationship between them in the Nov interview. I think what he's doing is very obvious. He says he doesn't know
because he doesn't want to reveal it. Parents do that to kids all the time - it's an old tactic. People do that when they're trying to keep a secret.
Ariadne said:
Do you see the problem with your claim that he has no idea what their relationship is? He'd already said he did know.
And I guess I'm too subtle for you, since I was trying to show that SE didn't want to reveal the relationship between Cloud and Tifa - they wanted to leave it open to the interpretation of players/viewers. In saying that he "doesn't know", Nomura obviously means he "doesn't want to tell".
Ariadne said:
Either he was trying to stir shit up in that quote you keep coming back to, or he was saying he didn't personally know what went on in the two years between FFVII and AC/C, but did know what the status of their relationship was after that. In either case, he hasn't said that he doesn't know.
Which most likely means he doesn't want to tell - he wants people to figure it out for themselves.
Ariadne said:
Second
In the Reunion Files, Nomura says that one of Tifa's roles is that of a koibito. Even if you refuse to admit that it's referring to Cloud, given your insistence otherwise that koibito implies mutual feelings, if Tifa's somebody's koibito, Nomura should damn well know what the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is.
FACT: it does not say that she's a koibito to
ANYONE. Therefore, you cannot assign that role to anyone that you want to. SE has to do that.
Ariadne said:
And for the last goddamn time, it's not my quotes and your quotes. They're all SE's quotes.
Yes, dear. It's short for "SE quotes that I use" and "SE quotes that you use".
Anastar said:
And Nomura being one of the writers of the movie isn't important, either:
"When Nomura joined Visual Works on the project, way back in 2003, the CG movie had been originally planned and announced as a 20-minute short. "It consisted of no action sequences and only featured Cloud and Tifa," remembered Nomura. "It was a good piece in itself, but as an entertainment piece or product, 20 minutes is too short and the story wasn't enough." So Nomura came up with a more intricate plot himself, and had scenario writer Kazushige Nojima-- who also worked on FFVII, VIII, and X with Nomura-- flesh out the scenes. "The new story turned out to be approximately an hour and since then we kept adding scenes and episodes. But the 20-minute piece is still the base of what we have now." (Anime Insider's October Issue, 2005)
So Nojima didn't write it by himself. Nomura was involved in the writing, too.
To be accurate, that isn't the same as writing the script (not to mention that Nojima's the one who decided that Cloud and Tifa would be together, and is the one responsible for their characterization), but, yes, I'll grant you that Nomura played a significant role in crafting the plot.
IMO, crafting the plot is actually more important than crafting the script, since you can't have a script without a plot to base it on. Usually, too, the script writer consults with the plot writer before making any changes.
And Nojima didn't say whether "together" meant together romantically or together as friends, did he? I mean, you could say that Cid and Shera were together when Avalanche got to Rocket Town in FFVII, but Cid and Shera weren't romantically involved at that time.
Ariadne said:
By the way: Why are you still referring to interviews when you've already said you only want to go by what's in games, movies and novellas? Apply an even fucking standard.
No, what I said was that I would only go by what's in games, movies, and novella's to
canonize a pairing. I never said we had to ignore interviews. To quote me:
The point is that you are claiming that something is established as canon without it ever being backed up by what happened in the games/movies/novellas. IF something is made canon, it will be established as canon in the games/movie/novella FIRST and then mentioned in the book(s). If something has NOT been established as canon in the games/movies/novellas first, then I will not accept that it is canon because it's mentioned in the book.
Source:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/sho...highlight=games,+movies,+novella's#post370478
Where did I say we had to ignore interviews?
Ariadne said:
Chantara said:
According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.
Yeah, bullshit. Que's already pointed to where hito said "koibito" can be one-sided pre-Case of the Lifestream (Ryu did too).
The meaning was always the same. Your attempt at rewriting history with lies? FUCKING FAILED.
No, it didn't fail at all, since what I quoted showed that Hito was using
both meanings - the meaning of "lover/sweetheart/boyfriend" and the meaning of "beloved". You only acknowledge the one meaning.
The word
"koibito" can be translated both ways. That means a possible meaning for the word's usage in CoLWhite is
"lover/sweetheart/boyfriend", in which case Cloud loves Aerith, too.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Actually, there is. See what I have labeled as "cabinet" in the following picture?
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsRoom1.png
That pic's lightened, but you can find the original here:
http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view¤t=vlcsnap-2555669.png
At any rate, that thing in the corner that I labeled as "CABINET" looks like it has drawers to me. Then there's an open trunk right in front of it where he could put clothes.
Annie, your "cabinet" is a box. One not even as tall as the desk. And that "trunk" isn't even as thick as the motorcycle tire laying beside it.
"Am not!!!" "Are so!!!"
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
When you stop to think that he was living in Aerith's Church without a bed or change of clothes or shower or kitchen for several months IIRC, then why do you think he'd be so fussy about the furnishings in his room?
'Cause he's been demonstrated to enjoy the finer things in life (his motorcycle, his clothes, his jewelry, his weapons, etc.), and it doesn't make any kind of sense for his bedroom to be any exception to the thorough attention he gives everything else in his life.
Or it could indicate that he actually considers his motorcycle his room, since he puts money into what he wears and the motorcycle he rides instead of where he lives. A shrink would most likely say that he's trying to dissociate himself from the Seventh Heaven that way.
Ariadne said:
As for how long he was at the church, I don't think that's ever really been specified.
It's not on the Timeline published at TLS, but I've always heard it's at least a couple of months.
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Also notice the MIRROR - no need for that in an office.
I'm really not seeing a mirror. And, yeah, actually, I've seen mirrors in lots of offices.
Turns out that's the window of the door, as shown in this picture:
http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view¤t=vlcsnap-2555559.png
Ariadne said:
Anastar said:
Then all the boxes, probably for him to store his personal stuff.
Instead of business supplies?
Point is, it could be either one - and we don't know for sure which one it is.
