The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[DrakeClawfang]

But... this is consistently Sephiroth's biggest problem. He sucks at prioritizing rather badly. He puts "revenge against Cloud" ahead of his other goals. He did it in the OG, he did it in AC/C by coming out to fight Cloud instead of just hanging back and waiting for Geostigma to do its thing, etc.

Agreed, he always suffers from that problem. It's why he's such a boring villain. Also why in my fanfic when he gets the chance to kill Cloud, he takes it, and he succeeds. :p

And while I do not mind talking about Sephiroth being a dumb shit in this regard, how is this really LTD related? Even if you can concretely say "Sephiroth didn't give two shits about Holy and JUST wanted to hurt Cloud" there is no way to support that as being an indicator of romantic feelings for either girl.

Re-read the original post then. I indicate quite clearly the LTD connection.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Agreed, he always suffers from that problem. It's why he's such a boring villain. Also why in my fanfic when he gets the chance to kill Cloud, he takes it, and he succeeds. :p

Awesome, we're agreed on his fatal flaw.

Re-read the original post then. I indicate quite clearly the LTD connection.

Re-read mine, what in the situation, even if we granted you that Holy is not in his motivation at all, lends credence to Clerith? IF Holy is not part of his reason for the murder at all (which needs supporting), then how do we know he wouldn't have attempted to force Cloud to kill/killed Tifa, had she for some reason run off on her own?

In fact, we really don't, since Aerith IS the one who ran off all by herself and such. Even without Holy, she made herself a prime target. So unless you can support the idea that Cloud loved Aerith and Sephy picked her out to hurt him OR somehow show evidence that he would not have done the same thing to Tifa given the opportunity, this is idle speculation that does not support either side.

Edit: Forgot the bit where you'd need to support Sephiroth's view of "Cloud and the Ancient seem to have something going on" is in any way correct, even if you could prove that to be his reason for murdering her.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Re-read mine, what in the situation, even if we granted you that Holy is not in his motivation at all, lends credence to Clerith?

The only thing I could come up with (aside from bad writing, which is also likely ) is that maybe Sephiroth realized Cloud was growing close to Aeris and decided "hey, it'll help me out a bit to kill this chick, and Cloud likes her, so let's troll him with it". Would also tie into (and don't jump on me for mentioning this, it's in a different context) his "tell me what you cherish most" line - it wasn't just enough for Sephiroth to pick a party member and kill them in front of Cloud's eyes, he picked the person whose death he thought would anguish him the most and had fun with it.

EDIT

Edit: Forgot the bit where you'd need to support Sephiroth's view of "Cloud and the Ancient seem to have something going on" is in any way correct, even if you could prove that to be his reason for murdering her.

Exactly. I never presented this as fact though, I presented it as a theory to be discussed, nothing more. I'm gonna dig through my Reunion File scans though, I could swear I heard this mentioned in them somewhere.

EDIT x2 - Hm, guess not.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

But, forgive me if I'm wrong, we're here to discuss facts. Hypothesizing about the characters is fun, and it does have its place here, but if you don't have facts to back them up they don't support anything. I'm asking you to support your theory, and pointing out that without such support it cannot be used in the debate. If it cannot be used in the debate, then it doesn't belong IN the debate thread, and would fit in better in a thread more friendly to such speculation.

I also like how you quoted yourself, as if I didn't read what you wrote the first time, while also glossing over the specific points I raised about it. Classy, that.

 

[Celes Chere]

Aerith went out on her own and was in Sephiroth's way... she's part Cetra and yeah, like mentioned above he probably cared about holy to some degree. He has no regards towards ANYONE. Remember he killed Tifa's Dad and injured Tifa too. The same logic could be applied to Tifa as well. But this time, Aerith went out on her own to a dangerous place where he could sense her. Sephiroth just didn't give a fuck and killed her. I really don't think he was thinking "oh I'm going to hurt Cloud" ---> He is really fucking twisted at this point. All he's thinking about is how everyone's a traitor to 'Mother' and shit like that. I really don't think he could form a logical thought at that point. He's just not smart enough.

It's the same with Tifa - she didn't die (THANK GOD) but he still slashed her for simply being in his way, killed countless people just for the fuck of it. Aerith is no different.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

But, forgive me if I'm wrong, we're here to discuss facts. Hypothesizing about the characters is fun, and it does have its place here, but if you don't have facts to back them up they don't support anything. I'm asking you to support your theory, and pointing out that without such support it cannot be used in the debate. If it cannot be used in the debate, then it doesn't belong IN the debate thread, and would fit in better in a thread more friendly to such speculation.

I also like how you quoted yourself, as if I didn't read what you wrote the first time, while also glossing over the specific points I raised about it. Classy, that.

First off, I am not Anastar, nor am I one of the other Cleriths you've debated with for the last several weeks. Thus I expect you to be polite and civil, as we have no prior bitter incidents to color your treatment of me. I'm not going to stand for a snotty attitude so you can dispose with yours.

I quoted myself because, as I said before, the reason I felt this concept was related to the LTD was in the original post. If you call the theory's relevance into question then yes, I am going to assume you didn't read my post thoroughly or forgot what it said. You corrected yourself, and I acknowledged this.

As for "discussing fact", that is your interest in this thread, but it is not the thread's only purpose. A discussion, in any subject matter, does not and is not confined solely to fact, there is always room for speculation and theorycrafting. I presented an idea to ponder, to stimulate discussion and offer a new perspective on an established event. Totally speculation? Yes. But I felt it was an interesting idea and wished to present it to others for opinions. If you dislike this act, fine, you have the right to think so, but don't assume it is everyone's or that it is a rule I am not allowed to do it.

 

[Theozilla]

Agreed, he always suffers from that problem. It's why he's such a boring villain. Also why in my fanfic when he gets the chance to kill Cloud, he takes it, and he succeeds. :p

Eh, for some people that is what they like about him. He definitely has an obsession for Cloud, heck in CoL he retains his identity by making Cloud his "core".

Hope I am not getting too off topic.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Eh, for some people that is what they like about him

There's a word for people like that - Clephiroth shippers. :p

 

[Dashell]

First off, I am not Anastar, nor am I one of the other Cleriths you've debated with for the last several weeks. Thus I expect you to be polite and civil, as we have no prior bitter incidents to color your treatment of me. I'm not going to stand for a snotty attitude so you can dispose with yours.

Asking you to support your claim is in no way, size, shape or form not being polite or uncivil. In fact, I was just about to come in here and ask if you had any evidence to support your claim. Hypotheticals are okay, but that's all they are and not suited for a topic where we're discussing canon and facts. But I guess that's too darn rude to ask people to back up their claims with evidence these days

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Asking you to support your claim is in no way, size, shape or form not being polite or uncivil.

I was referring to this.

I also like how you quoted yourself, as if I didn't read what you wrote the first time, while also glossing over the specific points I raised about it. Classy, that.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

First off, I am not Anastar, nor am I one of the other Cleriths you've debated with for the last several weeks. Thus I expect you to be polite and civil, as we have no prior bitter incidents to color your treatment of me. I'm not going to stand for a snotty attitude so you can dispose with yours.

So... this wasn't your post 2 weeks ago

I've spent about fifteen minutes here trying to think of a reply. Something to address the last few pages of posts, that won't get me another bitch ban. Part of me wanted to just post another sarcastic jab here and decide "fuck it, ban me".

immediately setting a tone of dislike for the LTD thread (which you've expressed repeatedly before) and then you proceeded to try and tell Big Daddy to lay off Anastar and accused me of not having facts. Play the victim card somewhere else, Drake, you've used it up here.

As for your theory--you'd have to prove Sephy himself knew Aerith could cast Holy and decided to hold off stabbing her until Cloud arrived. Hell, you'd have to somehow prove that Sephiroth even waited for Cloud at all. How long was Sephiroth in the Temple?

From a narrative standpoint it only makes sense for the protagonist to witness the death of his friend. Yes, she dies by Sephiroth's hand after the rest of AVALANCHE stop Cloud from doing it HIMSELF.

Another point you need to address is that Cloud did not want to rush after Aerith. Tifa and Barret had to convince him to go. You'd be giving Sephiroth some serious psychic powers for him to even know Cloud would be showing up at all.

You're attributing a motivation to a character that doesn't care about personal relations. He's genuinely baffled by Cloud's reaction. "Don't tell me you have feelings..."

Aside from all of that, you'd have to in some way show and support reasons that Seph's actions make the love Cloud had for Aerith anything more than platonic which... you can't do.

So, no, it's not LTD related as to be LTD related you'd have to first prove the motivation for her death was somehow romantic and not just throw the theory out there because you like it. That is what fanfic is for. Probably a good fanfic, even, but not a solid argument.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

immediately setting a tone of dislike for the LTD thread (which you've expressed repeatedly before) and then you proceeded to try and tell Big Daddy to lay off Anastar and accused me of not having facts. Play the victim card somewhere else, Drake, you've used it up here.

This is a different matter. As you said, it was two weeks ago, an entirely unrelated issue, I came in with no hostility this time to propose a new idea. I realize of course it's an unwritten rule that rudeness is okay in this thread and is practically expected at this point, but in this particular case I'm not gonna take it.

As that post indicates, I was fresh off a two-week ban, posting in a thread where I genuinely didn't know what I was allowed to post without being punished - concerns that proved to be well founded, by the way. So of course I wasn't in the best of spirits for that particular post. Before my distaste for this thread was just amused exasperation, a sense of "oh, you kids, going at it again", it was the ban that aggrivated my stance to actual dislike, and I've cooled down now. You wanna tell me you've never said anything you didn't mean when you were in a bad mood?

As for your theory--you'd have to prove Sephy himself knew Aerith could cast Holy and decided to hold off stabbing her until Cloud arrived. Hell, you'd have to somehow prove that Sephiroth even waited for Cloud at all. How long was Sephiroth in the Temple?

He definitely knew. He appears in Cloud's vision of Aeris and pretty much says "I won't let her stop me, we'll have to take care of her". And then Cloud senses Sephiroth is at the city that night before he goes down to find Aeris.

From a narrative standpoint it only makes sense for the protagonist to witness the death of his friend. Yes, she dies by Sephiroth's hand after the rest of AVALANCHE stop Cloud from doing it HIMSELF.

Agreed. But my counterpoint is, why target Aeris specifically? As has been pointed out, Sephiroth was okay with letting her summon Holy if he got to troll Cloud with her death. Tormenting Cloud was second priority to stoping Aeris, they just happened to coincide. Hence the concept, maybe Sephiroth thought that killing Aeris in particular would be painful for Cloud to experience.

Another point you need to address is that Cloud did not want to rush after Aerith. Tifa and Barret had to convince him to go. You'd be giving Sephiroth some serious psychic powers for him to even know Cloud would be showing up at all.

You're attributing a motivation to a character that doesn't care about personal relations. He's genuinely baffled by Cloud's reaction. "Don't tell me you have feelings..."

Except that the point of Sephiroth is supposed to be he's focused on tormenting and taunting Cloud. Of course he cares about Cloud's relationships - in so much as to how he can use them to cause him pain and anguish.

I'm actually of the personal opinion that Sephiroth's manipulations and torment of Cloud in FF7 is a load of bull that SE retconned after the fact, and in that sense I agree he doesn't give a shit about Cloud or his friends, but I'm going on the official stance here which says that Cloud was his main focus.

 

[Octo]

I'd like to point out that sephiroth already tried to get cloud to attack aerith at the temple of the ancients. It is only the intervention of the other characters that stops him, otherwise cloud would probably have killed her there. It seems that his physical control over cloud is dependent on proximity?

I'm not completley sure, but I think the temple and the city of the ancients are the only two occasions where cloud and another party member, in both cases aerith, are away from the othrr members to give seph the chance to make cloud attack?


This is just a thought though

 

[Fairheartstrife]

nor am I one of the other Cleriths you've debated with for the last several weeks...

This is a different matter. As you said, it was two weeks ago,

Just sayin'.

I came in with no hostility this time to propose a new idea. I realize of course it's an unwritten rule that rudeness is okay in this thread and is practically expected at this point

Gee, wonder why...

You wanna tell me you've never said anything you didn't mean when you were in a bad mood?

Nope, I've done that. But what you won't see is me bitching about the tones other people use with me--especially when I'm just as guilty as they are for whatever reason (bad mood or not), so again, refuse to 'take it' all you want, but stfu about it if you're also dishing it out. That's all.

He definitely knew. He appears in Cloud's vision of Aeris and pretty much says "I won't let her stop me, we'll have to take care of her". And then Cloud senses Sephiroth is at the city that night before he goes down to find Aeris.

He knew she was going to try and interfere. There is no indication he knew about Holy or that she was able to cast it (A totally ineffective thing, at that).

Agreed. But my counterpoint is, why target Aeris specifically?

You just answered that. She's trying to interfere.

As has been pointed out, Sephiroth was okay with letting her summon Holy if he got to troll Cloud with her death.

Where are you getting that? You have yet to provide any evidence that Sephiroth even KNEW about Holy. Or that he waited for Cloud to arrive, and even if he did wait to stick it to Cloud by sticking it to Aerith, you already gave us his motivation--Cetra interference with Jenova's rebirth... so....

Tormenting Cloud was second priority to stoping Aeris, they just happened to coincide. Hence the concept, maybe Sephiroth thought that killing Aeris in particular would be painful for Cloud to experience.

Then why is he surprised that Cloud is upset?

Except that the point of Sephiroth is supposed to be he's focused on tormenting and taunting Cloud. Of course he cares about Cloud's relationships - in so much as to how he can use them to cause him pain and anguish.

I'm actually of the personal opinion that Sephiroth's manipulations and torment of Cloud in FF7 is a load of bull that SE retconned after the fact, and in that sense I agree he doesn't give a shit about Cloud or his friends, but I'm going on the official stance here which says that Cloud was his main focus.

I disagree. Sephiroth's goals in VII have nothing to do with Cloud. He doesn't go out of his way to target Cloud--Cloud and company chase him, not the other way around. Seph doesn't become Cloud obsessed until AFTER Cloud screws up his planetary take-down.

Also, please provide citation of official stance. Because, again, Sephiroth didn't become obsessed until after VII. CoLB to be specific.


LTD on topic: Sex on grass is nice. Yay, Cloti!!

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Just sayin'.

Saying what? I'm not one of the cleriths you guys have been routinely debating with, I post sporadically.

Gee, wonder why...

Because people here are rude constantly and no one says a word. Same reason there's always been an undercurrent of hostility in the LTD threads, though at times it's been lighter or darker than other times. To be perfectly blunt, you, Vendel, OWD have usually been the most mean and bitter ones in past threads, and in this one now we have GLD. No one cares, in fact judging by the thanks his posts regularly get people approve of his behavior. Though to be perfectly fair while I'm being blunt, you're not as bad as those three, but you can still be very mean when you want to be.

Nope, I've done that. But what you won't see is me bitching about the tones other people use with me--especially when I'm just as guilty as they are for whatever reason (bad mood or not), so again, refuse to 'take it' all you want, but stfu about it if you're also dishing it out. That's all.

Except I'm not dishing it out, as I explained my dislike for the thread is not hatred or spite for the other posters, it's simple amusement and exasperation, there's a big difference. And since "that's all", I accept your apology, let's move on to the actual topic I brought up now.

He knew she was going to try and interfere. There is no indication he knew about Holy or that she was able to cast it (A totally ineffective thing, at that).

It's harder to argue Sephiroth didn't know about Holy. He travels the Lifestream, learns the truth about Jenova and about the Black Materia and Meteor, and knows nothing about Holy? It doesn't make sense. He knows Aerith is going to interfere, he likely knows how and why, what she's planning. And then once Holy is summoned, it doesn't do anything, so Sephiroth was prepared to hold it back.

Then why is he surprised that Cloud is upset?

"Beacause he is...a puppet". It was part of him mocking Cloud by acting like Cloud has no right to feel emotions, because he isn't real.

Sephiroth's goals in VII have nothing to do with Cloud. He doesn't go out of his way to target Cloud--Cloud and company chase him, not the other way around. Seph doesn't become Cloud obsessed until AFTER Cloud screws up his planetary take-down.

I agree entirely, what my rant says exactly!

Also, please provide citation of official stance. Because, again, Sephiroth didn't become obsessed until after VII. CoLB to be specific.

I took that implication from the Reunion Files and some excerpts, though looking over them again they could be taken refer to Sephiroth's hatred for Cloud in FF7 or AC, either way.

After plunging himself into the Lifestream flowing from a mako reactor just outside of Nibelheim, Sephiroth's body was diffused into the flow, but it drifted to the Northern Cave and reunited there due to his strong will. Sephiroth never forgot the agony that Cloud and the others put him through, and continued moving forward with his new plans for them while in the Lifestream.

The only reason we had him appear in this film was for vengeance. To think he was defeated by Cloud, a rookie SOLDIER at the time, made him all the more hell-bent on getting his revenge.

 

[Roger]

Sephiroth influence was stated to be part the reason why the whole fake SOLDIER persona was created, Sephiroth's tour around the world in JENOVA's body didn't start until the exact day that Cloud came in proximity with JENOVA in at Shinra HQ, Sephiroth doesn't just leave a trail behind for Cloud to follow, he turns a Midgar Zolom into a giant sign saying "SEPHIROTH WAS HERE, CLOUD IS A LOSER", he went into Cloud's mind so they could discuss how the two of them were gonna address the flower girl problem.

Now, it's debatable whether he was obsessed, merely taking advantage of best assests he had avialable or actually thought this was the only way he'd succeed but Sephiroth DEFINITELY made sure to make Cloud a big part of his plans.

 

[Theozilla]

It's harder to argue Sephiroth didn't know about Holy. He travels the Lifestream, learns the truth about Jenova and about the Black Materia and Meteor, and knows nothing about Holy? It doesn't make sense. He knows Aerith is going to interfere, he likely knows how and why, what she's planning. And then once Holy is summoned, it doesn't do anything, so Sephiroth was prepared to hold it back.

Except, that is based on speculation, you need some form of textual (game dialogue) evidence to support the argument that Sephiroth was specifically aware that Aerith could cast Holy. Like Fairheartstrife said

He knew she was going to try and interfere. There is no indication he knew about Holy or that she was able to cast it

Sephiroth's dialogue is not specific enough to make that assumption.

 

[Guts]

I like Drake's theory. I'd like to know how it seemed like they retconned Sephiroth's hatred for Cloud and love of trolling in, though, on a separate note.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Sephiroth influence was stated to be part the reason why the whole fake SOLDIER persona was created, Sephiroth's tour around the world in JENOVA's body didn't start until the exact day that Cloud came in proximity with JENOVA in at Shinra HQ, Sephiroth doesn't just leave a trail behind for Cloud to follow, he turns a Midgar Zolom into a giant sign saying "SEPHIROTH WAS HERE, CLOUD IS A LOSER", he went into Cloud's mind so they could discuss how the two of them were gonna address the flower girl problem.

Now, it's debatable whether he was obsessed, merely taking advantage of best assests he had avialable or actually thought this was the only way he'd succeed but Sephiroth DEFINITELY made sure to make Cloud a big part of his plans.

The game is told from Cloud's perspective, so events genuinely coincide with his appearance and involvement--as with any story we follow the protagonist. I'm sure there's a shitload of AVALANCHE stuff that happened before he arrived and the reactor raids that happened after his inclusion are not a result of his inclusion.

There are also a ton of cloaked men with numbers roaming the planet, heading for the reunion. Who knows if Sephy talks to them also. One can speculate that theoretically he can and does, but nothing in the game dialogue or information tells us this is factual or possible, same with determining that Sephy k-bobbed Aerith to torment Cloud. (Or an even larger reach to claim it was done because Cloud harbored feelings for her).

After plunging himself into the Lifestream flowing from a mako reactor just outside of Nibelheim, Sephiroth's body was diffused into the flow, but it drifted to the Northern Cave and reunited there due to his strong will. Sephiroth never forgot the agony that Cloud and the others put him through, and continued moving forward with his new plans for them while in the Lifestream.

The only reason we had him appear in this film was for vengeance. To think he was defeated by Cloud, a rookie SOLDIER at the time, made him all the more hell-bent on getting his revenge.

Cloud flung Sephy into the Lifestream. Cloud and Others

Also the last paragraph directly refers to after the game.

Also, rookie SOLDIER?

I don't remember RF being that off the mark in descriptions.

In any case, none of that provides evidence that Sephiroth targeted Aerith because of any romantic relationship with Cloud. Could he have wanted Cloud to witness her death? Sure. Could he have not given two shits? Also, sure. There's not enough contextual evidence to support the theory.

 

[Roger]

The game is told from Cloud's perspective, so events genuinely coincide with his appearance and involvement--as with any story we follow the protagonist.

JENOVA/Sephiroth opened the door to Cloud and Tifa's cell.

I'm sure there's a shitload of AVALANCHE stuff that happened before he arrived and the reactor raids that happened after his inclusion are not a result of his inclusion.

None of which have to do with Sephiroth.

There are also a ton of cloaked men with numbers roaming the planet, heading for the reunion. Who knows if Sephy talks to them also. One can speculate that theoretically he can and does, but nothing in the game dialogue or information tells us this is factual or possible, same with determining that Sephy k-bobbed Aerith to torment Cloud. (Or an even larger reach to claim it was done because Cloud harbored feelings for her).

I claim neither, but I don't think Sephiroth thinks any of braindead clones are good company.

Cloud flung Sephy into the Lifestream. Cloud and Others

Also the last paragraph directly refers to after the game.

Also, rookie SOLDIER?

I don't remember RF being that off the mark in descriptions.

Oh, it is.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

JENOVA/Sephiroth opened the door to Cloud and Tifa's cell.

Although I agree, it's speculative at best, and not indicative of Sephy wanting revenge on Cloud. Why not cut him down right then? Why not kill Tifa in front of him? Or the others in the adjacent cells? If anything it's indicative of Jenova/Seph wanting Cloud's jenova-cells for the reunion and not Sephy wanting to fuck with the kid.

None of which have to do with Sephiroth.

Point was/is that shit happens with or without Cloud's direct involvement. Sephy still makes his merry plans even when Cloud is a veggie in Mideel, and I'm sure he was doing stuff before Cloud showed up in Midgar or at ShinRa HQ.

I claim neither, but I don't think Sephiroth thinks any of braindead clones are good company.

Speculation neither supported or detracted by compilation.

Oh, it is.

Fair enough, but again, it says nothing of Sephiroth's motivation for ending Aerith. In-game context reveals she was in his way and interfering as his reasons for ending her not because Cloud had a hard-on for her which was what Drake was trying to allude with his theory.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A few quick points since I'm posting on my phone and can't multi-quote:

-The Ultimania Omega does specify that Seph used JENOVA's body to open Cloud's door because he wanted him to follow him. Obviously, he could have killed him then and assimilated his cells if he just wanted him for the Reunion

-Seph does leave several obvious clues for Cloud to find (the Midgar Zolom, letting people in towns see him rather than mask his appearance or fly over, meeting with Dio)

-Seph pretty obviously (to me anyway) waited for Cloud to come to the Ancients' city before killing Aerith. He knew where she was and could have popped in anytime. Now while one might say he couldn't be sure Cloud would follow, he'd been exerting the call of the Reunion over Cloud all along, so he knew

-It's far more simple to assume Seph knew about Holy and what Aerith would do than to assume he didn't, for reasons Drake went over. He had gained knowledge of Meteor and other Ancient matters from the Lifestream, and it was knowledge of the Ancients floating about their city that informed Aerith (and later Bugenhagen) of Holy

-I don't believe Seph was so much unconcerned about Holy as he was confident he could make Cloud kill her when the time came. He didn't expect Cloud to resist him so strongly, and when he realized he couldn't make him do it, he seemed to immediately leap into action to try finishing her -- but she finished her prayer a second too soon. Recall that she looks up and smiles right before Seph descends

-Seph certainly wanted to hurt Cloud with Aerith's death (he uses it to taunt him and raise Cloud's insecurities about himself), but there's nothing verifiably romantic about that

-Drake didn't deserve the harsh welcome his suggestion got. Unverifiable, sure, but not completely absurd

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Tres, you make it REALLY hard for me to make people work for shit. :\ I wanted DRAKE to explain how Seph's killing Aerith was indicative of romance. The whole Sephy obsessing Cloud and wanting him to suuuuufffffer thing isn't really a supporting argument to that because Seph let everyone live in the cells, including Aerith at the time, Tifa, Red and Barret.

Upon first play through I really thought Seph wanted Cloud to join him and was getting more and more pissed off when he didn't. Of course, after being immersed in this shit for way too long, I can see many layers to the arguments and motivations. However, there's a ton of shit that doesn't make sense as far as Sephy/Jenova symbiosis goes and his reasoning (or lack of) but I do agree that eventually Cloud was a major thorn for him. I don't agree that Seph actually gave him as much thought as some think he did, more of a 'if I can fuck with this kid while taking over the world, then yay, if not, whatever, but that's my own take on it and I'm not arguing that as fact.

I also disagree on the Sephy waiting specifically for Cloud at the Ancients Temple. I think he saw Cloud & Co. arrive, waited for Cloud to beat the snot out of Aerith again, but when he didn't he was all "fuck it, I'll do it" and impaled her with his sword like a dirty, dirty boy, but I don't think he killed her specifically to piss off/hurt Cloud as I mentioned above. She was in his way and interfering. The fact that she was important to Cloud, well that's just bonus cakes.

And I greet everyone the same way, so fuck you, you little worm. **kisses**


EDIT:

-The Ultimania Omega does specify that Seph used JENOVA's body to open Cloud's door because he wanted him to follow him. Obviously, he could have killed him then and assimilated his cells if he just wanted him for the Reunion

I didn't mean to sound like I disagreed that Seph opened the cell. I disagreed with the reasons he did. He wants Cloud to join them for the reunion. The Seph we see in game isn't really Seph, iirc. He's still not fully the 6 million dollar man yet, and I don't recall any evidence that he could absorb anything from killing someone with Jenova cells. Didn't the sick ones have to be at the reunion? If not then why not cut down all the cloaked messes? He does need them, after all... If this is answered somewhere, forgive me, as I can't recall.

 

[Anastar]

Quexinos

Those other deviations have a canonical version according to you - not according to SE.

Vincent and Yuffie didn't join the party then and Lucrecia's cave never happened?

What does it matter? Even if you can prove that one optional scene has a canonical version, it doesn't mean that all optional scene have a canonical version. That's like saying that if one scene has Vincent in it, that all scenes have Vincent in it.

Nojima says they will have problems even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, which means they have problems between them personally. Nojima went on in the same interview to say that "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith."

He said MIGHT first of all, and yes, problems between them in the context of love marriage and family... but no that can't be it.

Well, true... he did say MIGHT be true even without Geostigma and Sephiroth. However, he said the whole premise of the story is that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa, which means that's the basis of the story.

And no, Nojima said nothing about the problems between Cloud and Tifa being in the context of love, marriage, and family. What he actually said was, "I don't really intend to go on about my views on love or marriage or family". By that, he only means that he doesn't want to discuss his views on those matters - he isn't talking about how that pertains to Cloud and Tifa.

Yes "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith" as in the things with Aerith NEVER HAPPENED. And please don't tell me that it's just my opinion that the said that. If I said, "The soup upset my stomach, maybe things would have been different with the salad." (which would be a really stupid thing to say BTW but just work with me ) that means I didn't eat the salad.

And where did I say it did happen? Whether or not it did happen has no relevance to the fact that Nojima thought that things may have gone better between Cloud and Aerith than between Cloud and Tifa.

And also please don't try to tell me he means "maybe things would have gone well had Aerith lived" as I've seen it be argued. Then you'd be saying that the statement would be things between Cloud and TIfa went hunkey dorey if Aerith had lived... so Cloud would end up with Tifa even if Aerith had lived.

Or it could mean that Cloud would end up with Aerith instead of Tifa, since Nojima says with Aerith, not with Tifa.

And why are we saying for sure that Cloud and Tifa have separate bedrooms? Did someone prove that Cloud sleeps in his office yet?

I didn't say they had separate bedrooms for sure. If anything, it seems to me that the Cloti's here have been saying that they definitely did NOT have separate bedrooms, which is not proven either.

If anything, however, it seems to me that the evidence lies in favor of Cloud's office also being his bedroom. Think about it - there's no reason for SE to put a single bed in Cloud's office unless they wanted to insinuate that he sleeps there while at the Seventh Heaven. If SE wanted to make it clear that Cloud sleeps with Tifa, they wouldn't go out of their way to show a place where Cloud could sleep on his own.

Here's an HQ pic again:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1853/cloudsroom.png

No chair, no mirror, no dresser, no TV. Look I really don't if you want to say they MIGHT have separate bedrooms because it can't be disproved as well as I can't say they do for sure, but there's no way Cloud sleeps in his office all the time. He has to have an actual room with a dresser at the very least.

Then how come there was no dresser in his room in Nibelheim?
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsHouse.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsHouse2.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsHouse3.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsHouse3b.jpg
How come he has no bed AND no dresser AND no nightstand AND no lamp in Aerith's church while he's sleeping there? Why does he even need a dresser when he wears the same pair of clothing each day?

The "window" on the door could be a window on a door if there was a door showing.

Okay.. really?... come on now Annie... I mean Aly.. I mean Ana... whatever I'm supposed to call you. Look closely now:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1853/cloudsroom.png

You know damned well what my name is. And I already mentioned in an earlier reply that yes, there is a door there and I was wrong about that.

Do you really not see a door? I know your eyes are bad and I'm sorry about that but, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, if you honestly don't see a door I don't think you're in any position to tell us what is and isn't in Cloud's office.

Yes, that was so nice of you to say.

Can we meet you half way? Cloud may or may not have an actual room room, but we don't know for sure?

That's all I've been saying all along.

Easy - the HA HW scene is different from FFX and FFX-2 because Yuna and Tidus's love isn't optional.

Are you trying to say that only scenes with romance can't have canon versions? ... I really really don't get what you're trying to say. Read this carefully:

GLD is asking you if you believe the canon ending of FFX-2 is that Tidus returns. He's not saying ANYTHING about Yuna loving him. He's asking, "Isn't the canon ending of FFX-2 where Tidus returns?" Yes or no?

And you obviously don't get what I'm trying to say.

I'm saying that whether or not FFX-2 has a canon ending is totally irrelevant because it doesn't matter if FFX-2 has a canon ending. Even if FFX-2 does have a canon ending, it doesn't mean that the HA HW scene is canon.

I'm also saying that Yuna and Tidus's love was established on a non-optional basis in FFX. So what the hell does the ending of FFX-2 have to do with whether or not Cloti is canon? News: it has absolutely nothing to do with it.

In the same commercial, SE also talks about Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth, which is saying that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are the exact opposite of his feelings for Sephiroth: who Cloud loves vs. who Cloud hates. In the same commercial, Tifa is only seen with the other members of Avalanche under the title of "Friendship".

It's interesting to note that Cloud continues to hate Sephiroth in Advent Children/Complete despite the fact that Sephiroth is dead. If Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth can continue despite Sephiroth being dead, then Cloud's love for Aerith can continue despite the fact that she's dead. Furthermore, the idea that love can continue beyond death is also proven by Yuna's continuing love for Tidus in FFX-2.

Okay first thing I'll say is I don't disagree with you about the love or hate beyond death. So let's just get that out of the way. No argument here.

Okay.

However, I would like you to respond to three things for me.

1. The quote says "A hate that always was." and shows Sephiroth. You don't see Cloud at all, so I don't think you can really say for sure that it's Cloud's hate for Sephiroth. It COULD be Sephiroth's hate for Cloud, or Sephiorth's hate for mankind or anything like that. So, do you know for sure it's talking about Cloud's hate for Sephiroth or is it possibly Sephiroth doing the hating?

Does it matter? We know that Cloud hates Sephiroth - is there any question that he does? Do you know for sure that it's NOT talking about who Cloud loves and who Cloud hates?

2. The commercial says "A hate that always was." The problem here is... Cloud didn't always hate Sephiroth. And those other things I pointed out, Sephiroth didn't always hate mankind or always hate Cloud either. Thus, this statement isn't accurate. If this statement isn't accurate, how do we know the first statement is accurate?

Well, if this commercial is inaccurate, we have to question everything that SE says or produces. Maybe that means the FTOIL page is inaccurate, too, as well as the 10th AU, the 20th AU, and the FFVII UO. Why trust anything from SE?

3. As others have pointed out, commercials don't always portray the truth. SE commercials in particular seem to stretch the truth quite a bit. I'm aware that you can't watch videos, but to back up my claim I need to point these out. All of these are SE commercials for FF games. I'm also aware that some times it's argued that the FF commercials always show the canon couples so I'll talk about that a bit too:

Then once again - why trust anything from SE? You've said that Nomura lies, and now you're saying that the commercials are inaccurate. So I don't know why you pay attention to anything from SE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RBiZHV5X5M
This commercial shows 4 people who are... cosplaying or something. Does this have any truth to the FF world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4149plFj4
Shows artwork of a man who never appeared in the game along with some clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNgG4RIqaiU
This is the FFIV commercial. It's an ostrich running around.. nothing to do with the game even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uB8gbWAuV4
more ostrich nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5YIUbwB8Q
"Final Fantasy, it ain't over til it's over!"... uh... okay what does that even mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5mEhrj308k
FFV. Shows creatures coming out of a hole to attack a chocobo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72DmCaczYMc
Terra attacking Tokyo, which didn't happen in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBG4TUPxQ0U
Shows Mog having creatures audition for being in the game. But was Mog really responsible for the creatures being in the game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR5fRq2vqyY
There's a canon couple in this game right? I don't see it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGGihZAml4
No Ingus Sarah here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5anPD3yvqMg
Kind of suggests a triangle that's not there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsT1DTtZcNU
Are Rosa and Rydia the couple? That's the only 'pair' I see in this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps6cES5hRKo
No couples shown here. Unless Garn/Eik..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDY7F6EUhVI
Shows people talking on each other on the phone and none of them are in the game as far as I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlLh0yeu1ls
Says the FFIV LT is Kain -> Cecil <- Rosa, not Cecil -> Rosa <- Kain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuUPzmkCBms
This is the Final Fantasy 8 ad which states it's "A quest to win the heart of the woman he loves."

All of these commercials, particularly the last two, portray inaccurate information. So if all these commercials, all commercials of Final Fantasy games, contain inaccurate information about the plot, characters and various other points, why should I believe that the FFVII one is showing the truth? Why is that one commercial the exception?

And have there been any inaccuracies found in the Ultimanias? Or are those all perfect?

Also for reference, the FFVII Japanese ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ8FA0u3-RI

Nothing about a love, hate, or anything else like that. Why would Square not say Cloud loves Aerith in the Japanese commercial, and only let overseas people know about that information? It would seem to me that the Japanese people would be the first people they'd want to know.

Now, let me see - I've only seen the FTOIL page in Japanese. I assume that means the 20th AU was only published in Japanese. At lease, I've only see translations from it available on TLS.

So, if SE said that Cloti is canon on the FTOIL page, why would they only announce it to a JP audience?

There's no reason for SE to put the word "Love" over a picture of Cloud and Aerith if they aren't in love.

Is there any reason then for Square to say that FF8 is about a man trying to win a woman's heart, or that the FFIV LT is Kain -> Cecil <- Rosa, or that Mog is responsible for the monsters in FFIII?

So are you saying that nothing is ever accurate in SE commercials?

 

[Celes Chere]

the fact that Nojima thought that things may have gone better between Cloud and Aerith

When? O_o I believe it was said that Cloud and Aerith still would have had their share of problems if they had been together.

. If anything, it seems to me that the Cloti's here have been saying that they definitely did NOT have separate bedrooms, which is not proven either.

Lol generalizing. Actually, I'm not sure if Cloud and Tifa share a room or not and frankly, I don't really give a fuck. It's really not a big deal if they do or don't.

How come he has no bed AND no dresser AND no nightstand AND no lamp in Aerith's church while he's sleeping there?

Really...? I don't think he could fit all that with him on his trip to Aerith's church... plus he'd have no use for those things there. Notice Cloud's house in Nibelheim doesn't even have a bathroom, and he sleeps next to his Mother....he mustbe the poorest person in town.
Why are we even discussing this lol. I know Anastar won't read what I write unless I PM it which I am far too lazy to do, but still. Why. xD

Well, if this commercial is inaccurate, we have to question everything that SE says or produces. Maybe that means the FTOIL page is inaccurate, too, as well as the 10th AU, the 20th AU, and the FFVII UO. Why trust anything from SE?

There's a difference between marketing and actual official works. Seriously, anyone who has been to any kind of business class, social studies, sociology class, etc would know... hell, it's just common knowledge that marketing has nothing to do with what is 'correct' a lot of the time. And I know I've said this a thousand times already but "A love that could never be" is not POSITIVE. Notice that Zack and Aerith were never called "A love that could never be" while they were also separated by death. "Could never be" implies that they aren't in love, never had time for it to develop, it fell short, it stopped, etc. So even if there WAS something between Cloud and Aerith, it's NEVER happening. So yeah, you can have your commercial, lol.