The script tells us that it was Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her that prompted him to think of a way in. Without Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her, would Cloud have thought of a way in? We'll never know. All we know is what the script tells us -- Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her prompted him to think of a way in.
The script tells us it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that made him put aside his reservations about causing a commotion and being a man. Without Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety, would Cloud have pushed aside his reservations about causing a commotion and being a man? We'll never know. All we know is what the script tells us -- Cloud pushed aside his reservations because of Aerith's safety.
The entire reason this is even being debated is because of Barret's observation. A counterargument has been made that "messed up" Cloud *DID* care for others prior to the introduction of Aerith. One of the examples given has been Cloud's rescue of Tifa. But the script tells us Cloud's rescue of Tifa has more to do with Cloud's concern for Aerith rather than Tifa. Therefore, Barret's observation is not counteracted by Cloud's rescue of Tifa when we look at the script.
Who was able to bring out Cloud's caring side and have him put down his cocky front? The undeniable answer to this question is: Aerith. Although Cloud showed care for those in the past, and has always been a caring person, when we met him at the beginning of FFVII, that wasn't the person we saw. Only until Aerith was introduced did we start to see the real, caring side of Cloud. To me, this is a testament to the "special bond" SE says Cloud and Aerith have.
--Cloud agrees to protect Aerith from the Turks.
--Cloud tries to leave Aerith in the middle of the night so she doesn't face danger.
--Cloud decides to go inside Don's mansion because Aerith's safety was at risk.
--Cloud: "I need to get in Shinra building. I need to rescue her……by all means!" ~Dismantled
All of this shows the "special bond" Cloud and Aerith were forming together. And although Cloud showed acts of care before and after Aerith was introduced, I'd say it was Aerith in particular that caused Cloud to drop his, "cocky front" and start showing us that he was, in-fact, the caring person we always knew he was. Therefore, Barret's observation is completely and totally relevant in terms of showing Cloud and Aerith's special, and undeniably romantic bond.
Again, you've avoided the larger picture. If you ever convinced anyone here that there was an undenible romantic bond, he turns out to be a bit of an ass to jump into bed with her best friend in the next act along. So really, you want to keep Cloud being a guy Aeris is attracted to, as I doubt she gives her heart willy nilly, you need to recouncile that before trying to nuance scenes into your favour rather than play them as intended.
Aeris and Cloud saw Tifa rushed to Sector 7. They both wanted to get her out, Aeris came up with the scheme, they risked their lives. Aeris is smart and tenacious, Cloud is confused but eager to protect those he cares for and feels a duty to: Tifa and Aeris. One he wants to stay home where its safe, Aeris, the other he wants out of the hands of the grubby local seedy boss. End of.
It doesn't need any more dissection because that's all there is to really glean there without overanalysis.
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Merging as no one replied as I wrote another tl;dr!
lol
All I'm saying is that the children Cloud and Tifa have are not a result of their romantic relationship. They are simply a result of circumstances that have NOTHING to do with their (possible) romantic relationship. Therefore, this family can't be used to support the idea of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.
I don't think anyone needs to give you anymore proof than is already there. Quite frankly, personally, whether kids are there or not, doesn't really matter because the sequential narrative of the whole shebang makes it clear what Tifa and Cloud feel. Marlene is an example of their extended family, and how Barrett trusts them as a positive influence, rather than a pair of icky people living together dysfunctionally, one yearning for the other and the other mourning for the love of the yearner's best friend.
It isn't an assumption that Cloud is romantically bonded with Aerith. Cloud's own actions and words prove he is romantically bonded with Aerith.
No it doesn't. You've got a room full of people here who have debunked every comment you make, added to the fact, as I've said, by making CLoud romantically involved with Aeris makes no sense to his wider story, and in fact trivialises his "romantic" relationship with Aeris by how fast he moves on.
So you can stop that bandwagon before it leaves the stables. No, there is no logic or evidence. Logic is the thing you need to be focusing on more, in a wider context than simple preferred scenes.
Why is it assumed that confirming feelings without words automatically means sex? It could simply mean a first kiss.
Beyond the fact it's been confirmed in related media, quite jovially as if it wasn't a big revelation but just a scene they did where they had to decide how they slept together, it is indicative within the scene, within the context of what they've just shared, which was very intimate (your thoughts made manifest) and the reaction of the crew. It wasn't a kiss. Deal with it.
Cloud felt romantic feelings for both girls at the same time. Although while they were both alive, I think Cloud felt stronger feelings for Aerith. But after Aerith died, he went with Tifa (at least during the Highwind scene). It makes complete and total sense that Cloud would admit these things to Tifa the night before he thought he was going to die in the North Crater.
No it doesn't. You've yet to prove why Cloud, the man who was under many different pressures, fears, mental anxieties and personality trauma is clearly more romantically involved with a girl he'd only just met, showed little but confusion to her romantic notion and was from the start of his story always focused on Tifa, as being "more romantic".
You're going to have to accept on your own terms that a man who is in the middle of a breakdown, cannot be romantically true, especially when they're missing major parts of their memory, the parts which are all about the investment in his other friend.
The bottomline, and you hate it, but Maiden shows Aeris is AS bad. Her feelings are mixed up with Zack. There's a part of her that cannot get passed the man, and she sees that more in Cloud than she wants to admit. She can't get passed Zack, Cloud is stuck with repressed memories over his true obligations and is mimicing the behaviour of Aeris' ex boyfriend.
Can you not see, how that doesn't tell a romantic story. Romantic stories come from true feelings for each other, Aeris and Cloud have feelings mixed with other people. I think he cares for Aeris, in some ways she's probably a substitute for Tifa in so far as the role he plays with Aeris is the role he'd dreamed of having with Tifa - a tough SOLDIER who will protect the person he cherishes. That isn't to say he doesn't care for Aeris in her own right. I think he does. I think he feels he owes Aeris after her death too - I would suggest he feels she gave him far more than he could give her, in fact all he gave her was death. Those are narratively logical assumptions based on the motivations, backgrounds and futures of all characters - not singular scenes.
You shouldn't have to pick through scenes in any story to this degree to have to "prove" anything - it should be evident - and it is. The way I describe it is the only way it carries resonance with the whole story in content, and theme. Romances are born from pure feelings, not mixed up madness and trauma.
But Cloud's actions after the HAHW scene tell us he didn't get over Aerith's death.
Nor Zack's. I suppose he was romantically involved with him too? Please say yes.
There really isn't anything in this paragraph for me to respond to because it's just a bunch of words meant to diminish my beliefs.
Nope. Not at all. There's a lot to respond to. You need to explain how my approach carries less sense and less narrative consistency to the characters than your approach. If you can't, you may have finally just started to hit the truth.
So...the date mechanism was created because Cloud was ill, not because of the love triangle? ...really?
You act like the two ideas are mutually exclusive. They're not. The love triangle forms the date mechanics, but the actual mechanics are played true to the character of Cloud by having Cloud not himself during this period. Because Cloud isn't Cloud, you can fuck around with his behaviour and it doesn't damage the character - because he's not himself within the context of the story.
My point was simple: some choices have official outcomes. What are you rambling about now?
And my point was simpler: that all choices play true to Cloud in the context of those moments, because Cloud isn't himself. The ramble was there because you missed it the first time. Third time lucky.
Why does SE include Cloud's date on the, "For the One I Love" page if the date isn't meant to show romance?
Why does SE picture the Clerith date (ie: the canon date) if we aren't meant to apply the FTOIL page to their date in particular?
Oh dear, you really shouldn't have gone there.
http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/
We know the Clerith date is canon, and we know SE views this date as an expression of love because they included it on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the Clerith *IS* significant to SE in terms of showing love. Sadly, your opinion about the date isn't what matters. It's SE's opinion that matters.
Oh dear... seems SE agrees with me. Not only is that date described as being simply a point where different people may appear before Cloud dependent on his actions, it goes on to the Highwind sequence:
"The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."
Double ouch! So if Tifa's feelings for Cloud are.... then Cloud's feelings for Tifa are...?
Again again, you didn't need SE to tell you that. It's there.
The obvious answer to Nomura's question is that the ending of Kingdom Hearts was meant to portray Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. Since Nomura says the ending of KH can "ANSWER QUESTIONS," about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII, the point I'm making shouldn't be too hard to comprehend.
The point is hard to comprehend. You have source materials that are focused on FF7 that tell you the answer. And the game itself. And the novellas. And Advent Children. Etc. It's all there, in this post. Above me, if you've forgot. So what you can interpret at the end of a game that... isn't canon and doesn't tell you much, a game incidentally plays the same fun with Tifa in the sequel, isn't really worth focusing on. Focus on canon material, answer is there.
You are still using circumstantial evidence to prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. Where is the evidence of a *ROMANTIC* relationship?
"The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."
Thought I'd use it twice. It's actually got what you're after: mutual feelings.
And the reason the living arrangements of other couples don't need to be debated is because SE tells us, unequivocally, what other couples are canon. Remember, the only love triangle where the protagonist is pictured with both of his love interests on the FTOIL page is FFVII.
Love triangle it is. Aeris thinks she loves Cloud. Tifa thinks she loves Cloud. Unless Aeries loves Cloud, Cloud loves Tifa, and Tifa loves Aeris, screaming love triangle proving anything proves nothing. Both girls are into Cloud during the first disk. That's the LT.
This couple have more than most. We actually get a sex scene in FF7. Case of Tifa is brutally honest, and so is all the localised material too.
Can we stop this now? Isn't it, as Ryu points out, over at this point? You've got your mutual love, its Cloud./Tifa And you've still not explained how if there is mutual love between Cloud and Tifa, how Cloud skipping to Tifa as soon as he can makes a mutual romance with Aeris even the slightest bit inviting to audiences? Makes him a bit of a heel, eh?
Cloud wanting to go see Aerith somewhere she's happy/where he thinks she's happy, I dunno to me kind of harkens back to the Cosmo Canyon scene where Aerith is sad because she thought she was all alone, and the beginning where Aerith was talking about how she would get out of Midgar and find her Promised Land ... seems if Cloud were paying attention there/wanted her to find her happiness/thought she had found her Promised Land ... all in all that seems romantic to me 
So you're saying that theres no way Cloud could have prevented a 5ft 3" woman from going into a whorehouse?
