The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
So why the hell did Cloud even bother going to the Dons Mansion then? Sounds like a huge waste of time. He could have just hauled Aerith out of there and taken her home.

Cloud didn't have his 'lifestream revelations' of Tifa no, but he still cared about her.
 

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
Cloud seems pretty horrified to see Tifa being lead into the sector. He's only acting out the role of Zack's dream, a mercenary, and he's not even a skilled member of SOLDIER. So, yes, I'm pretty sure he'd have gone anyway, but not being a skilled warrior and without support, with Aeris' plan he'd probably been caught very quickly.

In the end Cloud is an honourable man. And keen on guardianship and protecting those he loves. His messed up mercenary persona doesn't really convince anyone bar Barret lol and even he sees chinks in it. His mercernary persona only goes so far, I doubt it goes so far to ignore childhood friends because he can't think of a way in.
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
So your going to lead us to believe that a young man whom is capable of literally jumping over sky scrapers to slay a dragon whilst being shot by that same dragons energy attack is incapable of you know.. convincing a women not to go into a mansion to save a girl he allegedly doesnt give two shits about? lol

As if he couldnt just pick her up and walk in the opposite direction and say "no". I mean the cloud you paint in FF7 is a huge shithead anyway why wouldnt he do that instead?


Your really reaching hard on this one lol.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Cloud saw Tifa being carried away, he had no idea that she was in Don's mansion until he got there.

The script tells us that it was Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her that prompted him to think of a way in. Without Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her, would Cloud have thought of a way in? We'll never know. All we know is what the script tells us -- Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her prompted him to think of a way in.

The script tells us it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that made him put aside his reservations about causing a commotion and being a man. Without Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety, would Cloud have pushed aside his reservations about causing a commotion and being a man? We'll never know. All we know is what the script tells us -- Cloud pushed aside his reservations because of Aerith's safety.

The entire reason this is even being debated is because of Barret's observation. A counterargument has been made that "messed up" Cloud *DID* care for others prior to the introduction of Aerith. One of the examples given has been Cloud's rescue of Tifa. But the script tells us Cloud's rescue of Tifa has more to do with Cloud's concern for Aerith rather than Tifa. Therefore, Barret's observation is not counteracted by Cloud's rescue of Tifa when we look at the script.

Who was able to bring out Cloud's caring side and have him put down his cocky front? The undeniable answer to this question is: Aerith. Although Cloud showed care for those in the past, and has always been a caring person, when we met him at the beginning of FFVII, that wasn't the person we saw. Only until Aerith was introduced did we start to see the real, caring side of Cloud. To me, this is a testament to the "special bond" SE says Cloud and Aerith have.

--Cloud agrees to protect Aerith from the Turks.
--Cloud tries to leave Aerith in the middle of the night so she doesn't face danger.
--Cloud decides to go inside Don's mansion because Aerith's safety was at risk.
--Cloud: "I need to get in Shinra building. I need to rescue her……by all means!" ~Dismantled

All of this shows the "special bond" Cloud and Aerith were forming together. And although Cloud showed acts of care before and after Aerith was introduced, I'd say it was Aerith in particular that caused Cloud to drop his, "cocky front" and start showing us that he was, in-fact, the caring person we always knew he was. Therefore, Barret's observation is completely and totally relevant in terms of showing Cloud and Aerith's special, and undeniably romantic bond.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
:facepalm:

Aerith did not have to go in there AT ALL. Her safety was not comprimised. She could have gone home, or gone and ripped off those idiots outside the Honeybee. Cloud conceeded to crossdressing because it was the quickest viable option presented to him at the time.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
:facepalm:

Aerith did not have to go in there AT ALL.
But she decided she was going to. And we all know, based on what Elmyra said, that once Aerith makes up her mind, there is no point in convincing her otherwise. So because Aerith had made up her mind, Cloud wanted to protect her.

Her safety was not comprimised. She could have gone home, or gone and ripped off those idiots outside the Honeybee.
Her safety would have been compromised if she had went in alone -- which is what she said she was going to do in the first place.

And I agree. Aerith could have gone home, or done multiple other things. But she didn't. And because she didn't, Cloud wanted to make sure she was safe. And if that meant cross-dressing, so be it.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
:sigh: So you're saying that theres no way Cloud could have prevented a 5ft 3" woman from going into a whorehouse?

I give up. I am never going to accept what you are saying here. It makes no sense.
 
Elmyra said (in-front of Cloud) that once Aerith has made up her mind, there is no point in trying to convince her otherwise.


After Cloud agreed to go in Don's mansion because Aerith asked him to and because he was worried for her safety, he agrees that the next course of action is to see if Tifa is alright.

And the panties quote is optional. But if you want to use it as evidence, I'd simply say, the plan to save Tifa was already agreed upon by Cloud and Aerith. So of course he's going to say, "...well, if it's to save Tifa..." -- that's the plan he agreed to because of his desire to keep Aerith safe.

By this evidence Aerith is clearly more concerned for Tifa's safety than Cloud is. It seems as if Aerith is also more concerned about Tifa than she is about Cloud; Aerith is determined to get into Corneo's mansion to rescue Tifa no matter what, and is the driving force behind everything that happens in Wall Market. What is driving her to risk everything in an attempt to rescue a girl she hardly knows, you ask? I'll tell you: Her passionate love for Tifa, a love which filled Aerith's heart to overflowing the very moment she glimpsed Tifa passing by in the chocobo cart freshening up her lipstick.

Aerith's actions make it clear that her feelings for Tifa are much more concerned and loving than her feelings for Cloud. Aerith is determined to stop at nothing to rescue Tifa from rape and sexual humilation at the hands of Don Corneo - and yet she is willing to let Cloud risk this very same fate, if it improves their chances of saving Tifa. In fact, Aerith forcefully pushes Cloud into a number of very dicey situations from which he may or may not have escaped with his virginity intact, which is clear proof that she sets a higher romantic value on Tifa's body than on Cloud's. Aerith's willingness to sacrifice Cloud's well-being and safety in order to rescue Tifa is irrefutable evidence that Aerith's affection for Tifa is strong, whereas she sees Cloud as little more than a useful and necessary tool.

Am I doing this LTD thing right yet?
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I somewhat wonder if BlankBeat knows what "to waver" means. Cause I kinda don't think he does. Wavering goes both ways. If you demand recognition of Cloud wavering toward Aerith at some point, you must in turn recognize he wavers towards Tifa as well.

It'd be a nice first step on the road to admitting that the wavering eventually STOPS cold, and Cloud settles on Tifa.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
The disagreement stems from I'm right and you're wrong because once again you have no sequential sense if we take your logic and place it into the wider whole.
lol

Absurd. Whether kids, fostered, adopted, child-minded are present, doesn't change the relationship. Malene isn't theirs but as Case of Tifa points out, they're trusted, because the FF7 ARE family, they look out for each other still and remember those they all lost. Again, cherry picking. I'll end this AGAIN with the same point because you so neatly ignore it in every aspect of my points:
All I'm saying is that the children Cloud and Tifa have are not a result of their romantic relationship. The children Cloud and Tifa have are a result of circumstances that have NOTHING to do with their (possible) romantic relationship. Therefore, this family can't be used to support the idea of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

So lets assume that Cloud is in pain because he'd been cast a potential future with Aeris, as a marriage, so we assume he is at this point romantically bonded to the notion of him and Aeris.
It isn't an assumption that Cloud is romantically bonded with Aerith. Cloud's own actions and words prove he is romantically bonded with Aerith.

Aeris dies, he's upset, he breaksdown when he realises he's been a puppet to the man who killed him, Tifa rescues him and his memories from the lifestream and as soon as he's back to being Cloud finally, restored with memories, he sleeps with Tifa. Now that COULD be sequentially fine, man once restored is not the man he thought he was when he was in love with Aeris, but how does that make your pairing one you want to embrace? It either demeans EVERYTHING he had with Aeris as merely a confused event in his life, or paints him as a bit of a superficial berk.
Why is it assumed that confirming feelings without words automatically means sex? It could simply mean a first kiss.

Cloud felt romantic feelings for both girls at the same time. Although while they were both alive, I think Cloud felt stronger feelings for Aerith. But after Aerith died, he went with Tifa (at least during the Highwind scene). It makes complete and total sense that Cloud would admit these things to Tifa the night before he thought he was going to die in the North Crater.

As soon as you're "right" about CloudxAeris, you wreck Cloud for the rest of the complilation. I'm half tempted to say you're right and from hereon ensure everyone knows Cloud isn't a sensitive, honourable man, who was helped by a flower girl when he was lost to his pain, but just some self serving bastard or a guy who loved a girl for a phase, to the point he was keen to marry, but got over it real quick when he got "better".
But Cloud's actions after the HAHW scene tell us he didn't get over Aerith's death.

Like those apples? I doubt it. This is why I'm right and you're wrong. You can cherry pick what you like, you can even take a valid stab at interpreting other media as "Clerith", but FF7 cannot be twisted to make CloudxAeris romantic without destroying Cloud or trying to defy every event clarified by narrative and authors. End of. I don't say this to piss on your party, nor do I say it because it makes me happy to ruin your pairing. It doesn't. I say it because your pairing doesn't make sense, and I hope valiantly you'll stop repeating the same thing over and over and THINK about that.
There really isn't anything in this paragraph for me to respond to because it's just a bunch of words meant to diminish my beliefs.

Nope, it's because he's not himself the player is allowed is to subvert Cloud's character because he's not well, so technically ANY choice you make can be consistent. Have him go on a date with Barret, he's a mess, it works. It's smart game development.
So...the date mechanism was created because Cloud was ill, not because of the love triangle? ...really?

Missing the point. Each event you choose still WORKS for Cloud. None of them defy the story or belittle it. The player cannot subvert the tale because Cloud is unstable that any of the comments can fit with that aspect of the game. Yes the LTD gameplay requires the characters to be alive, but Cloud is a guy fixated on Tifa prior to FF7 and after the Lifestream. To have him dilly dallying, flirting and being silly or off with people's feelings wouldn't work with the character at ANY other time in the game because, well, Cloud's a bit of a straight lace.
My point was simple: some choices have official outcomes. What are you rambling about now?

It isn't. Seriously. Look at the date. Show me the romance. It's one sided awkwardness. Look at Case of Tifa, its two people talking about their future together. Mutual. I'm not going to pull the quotes out for you dissect if you're that crazy, do it yourself. Case of Tifa is a classic story structure of a couple who start with rosy hopes for the future till the past starts to drive them apart. It's not special, its not unique, I don't actually think its well written, but its narrative is clear. Your "date"? That thing he was pressured to go on, is played for comedy. There's no romance in Tifa or Aeris' dates.
Why does SE include Cloud's date on the, "For the One I Love" page if the date isn't meant to show romance?

Why does SE picture the Clerith date (ie: the canon date) if we aren't meant to apply the FTOIL page to their date in particular?

We know the Clerith date is canon, and we know SE views this date as an expression of love because they included it on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the Clerith *IS* significant to SE in terms of showing love. Sadly, your opinion about the date isn't what matters. It's SE's opinion that matters.

Furthermore, by Cloud simply agreeing to go on the date shows his romantic interest in Aerith -- which is what my point is when talking about the date. Nothing more, nothing less.

Good lord, how many questions of mine have you ignored? I don't play Kingdom Hearts, it's Disney with FF bits slipped in. I don't see KH1 or the Tifa focused KH2 as anything related to FF7. If you need a dual license fun game to explain to you another story, you need to look at your own inadequacies there. I get my data from the Compilation and from the comments made by the authors and designers of that Compilation. Normura and Nojima are pretty damn clear in the story structure to the Compilation, you want to try and defy that story logic because YOU want wuv between Aeris and Cloud, so you go to cling onto comments made by a non canon game, go ahead, knock yourself out. Same with KH2. It doesn't inform on FF7, it may mirror aspects of the dynamics, but it ain't canon. Move on.
The obvious answer to Nomura's question is that the ending of Kingdom Hearts was meant to portray Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. Since Nomura says the ending of KH can "ANSWER QUESTIONS," about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII, the point I'm making shouldn't be too hard to comprehend.

Rubbish. Again you point to the trivial to defy the overall arc of story. It's insulting. Case of Tifa sets them up as a couple moving forward, putting the pain behind them, it then has their relationship disintergrate as Cloud falls apart, to the point they are living separate lives. That's the whole point of Case of Tifa if you've not read for anything but cherry picking. Advent Children picks that up, where they've living separately.

I don't recall seeing the bedroom for many canon couples, let alone any images of phallus' getting inserted into plum holes, does that mean they don't have sex if we don't see them in bed doing it? You'll ignore the entire point of the authors penmanships to prove your point, even Maiden has Aeris wishing Cloud and Tifa all the best as she angrily recounciles her issues with Zack, its a sad and hard moment where she lets go. Why can't you?
You are still using circumstantial evidence to prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. Where is the evidence of a *ROMANTIC* relationship?

And the reason the living arrangements of other couples don't need to be debated is because SE tells us, unequivocally, what other couples are canon. Remember, the only love triangle where the protagonist is pictured with both of his love interests on the FTOIL page is FFVII.
 
Last edited:

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
The script tells us that it was Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her that prompted him to think of a way in. Without Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her, would Cloud have thought of a way in? We'll never know. All we know is what the script tells us -- Aerith inviting Cloud to go with her prompted him to think of a way in.

The script tells us it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that made him put aside his reservations about causing a commotion and being a man. Without Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety, would Cloud have pushed aside his reservations about causing a commotion and being a man? We'll never know. All we know is what the script tells us -- Cloud pushed aside his reservations because of Aerith's safety.

The entire reason this is even being debated is because of Barret's observation. A counterargument has been made that "messed up" Cloud *DID* care for others prior to the introduction of Aerith. One of the examples given has been Cloud's rescue of Tifa. But the script tells us Cloud's rescue of Tifa has more to do with Cloud's concern for Aerith rather than Tifa. Therefore, Barret's observation is not counteracted by Cloud's rescue of Tifa when we look at the script.

Who was able to bring out Cloud's caring side and have him put down his cocky front? The undeniable answer to this question is: Aerith. Although Cloud showed care for those in the past, and has always been a caring person, when we met him at the beginning of FFVII, that wasn't the person we saw. Only until Aerith was introduced did we start to see the real, caring side of Cloud. To me, this is a testament to the "special bond" SE says Cloud and Aerith have.

--Cloud agrees to protect Aerith from the Turks.
--Cloud tries to leave Aerith in the middle of the night so she doesn't face danger.
--Cloud decides to go inside Don's mansion because Aerith's safety was at risk.
--Cloud: "I need to get in Shinra building. I need to rescue her……by all means!" ~Dismantled

All of this shows the "special bond" Cloud and Aerith were forming together. And although Cloud showed acts of care before and after Aerith was introduced, I'd say it was Aerith in particular that caused Cloud to drop his, "cocky front" and start showing us that he was, in-fact, the caring person we always knew he was. Therefore, Barret's observation is completely and totally relevant in terms of showing Cloud and Aerith's special, and undeniably romantic bond.


Again, you've avoided the larger picture. If you ever convinced anyone here that there was an undenible romantic bond, he turns out to be a bit of an ass to jump into bed with her best friend in the next act along. So really, you want to keep Cloud being a guy Aeris is attracted to, as I doubt she gives her heart willy nilly, you need to recouncile that before trying to nuance scenes into your favour rather than play them as intended.

Aeris and Cloud saw Tifa rushed to Sector 7. They both wanted to get her out, Aeris came up with the scheme, they risked their lives. Aeris is smart and tenacious, Cloud is confused but eager to protect those he cares for and feels a duty to: Tifa and Aeris. One he wants to stay home where its safe, Aeris, the other he wants out of the hands of the grubby local seedy boss. End of.

It doesn't need any more dissection because that's all there is to really glean there without overanalysis.

____________________________________________________________

Merging as no one replied as I wrote another tl;dr!

lol
All I'm saying is that the children Cloud and Tifa have are not a result of their romantic relationship. They are simply a result of circumstances that have NOTHING to do with their (possible) romantic relationship. Therefore, this family can't be used to support the idea of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

I don't think anyone needs to give you anymore proof than is already there. Quite frankly, personally, whether kids are there or not, doesn't really matter because the sequential narrative of the whole shebang makes it clear what Tifa and Cloud feel. Marlene is an example of their extended family, and how Barrett trusts them as a positive influence, rather than a pair of icky people living together dysfunctionally, one yearning for the other and the other mourning for the love of the yearner's best friend.

It isn't an assumption that Cloud is romantically bonded with Aerith. Cloud's own actions and words prove he is romantically bonded with Aerith.

No it doesn't. You've got a room full of people here who have debunked every comment you make, added to the fact, as I've said, by making CLoud romantically involved with Aeris makes no sense to his wider story, and in fact trivialises his "romantic" relationship with Aeris by how fast he moves on.

So you can stop that bandwagon before it leaves the stables. No, there is no logic or evidence. Logic is the thing you need to be focusing on more, in a wider context than simple preferred scenes.

Why is it assumed that confirming feelings without words automatically means sex? It could simply mean a first kiss.

Beyond the fact it's been confirmed in related media, quite jovially as if it wasn't a big revelation but just a scene they did where they had to decide how they slept together, it is indicative within the scene, within the context of what they've just shared, which was very intimate (your thoughts made manifest) and the reaction of the crew. It wasn't a kiss. Deal with it.

Cloud felt romantic feelings for both girls at the same time. Although while they were both alive, I think Cloud felt stronger feelings for Aerith. But after Aerith died, he went with Tifa (at least during the Highwind scene). It makes complete and total sense that Cloud would admit these things to Tifa the night before he thought he was going to die in the North Crater.

No it doesn't. You've yet to prove why Cloud, the man who was under many different pressures, fears, mental anxieties and personality trauma is clearly more romantically involved with a girl he'd only just met, showed little but confusion to her romantic notion and was from the start of his story always focused on Tifa, as being "more romantic".

You're going to have to accept on your own terms that a man who is in the middle of a breakdown, cannot be romantically true, especially when they're missing major parts of their memory, the parts which are all about the investment in his other friend.

The bottomline, and you hate it, but Maiden shows Aeris is AS bad. Her feelings are mixed up with Zack. There's a part of her that cannot get passed the man, and she sees that more in Cloud than she wants to admit. She can't get passed Zack, Cloud is stuck with repressed memories over his true obligations and is mimicing the behaviour of Aeris' ex boyfriend.

Can you not see, how that doesn't tell a romantic story. Romantic stories come from true feelings for each other, Aeris and Cloud have feelings mixed with other people. I think he cares for Aeris, in some ways she's probably a substitute for Tifa in so far as the role he plays with Aeris is the role he'd dreamed of having with Tifa - a tough SOLDIER who will protect the person he cherishes. That isn't to say he doesn't care for Aeris in her own right. I think he does. I think he feels he owes Aeris after her death too - I would suggest he feels she gave him far more than he could give her, in fact all he gave her was death. Those are narratively logical assumptions based on the motivations, backgrounds and futures of all characters - not singular scenes.

You shouldn't have to pick through scenes in any story to this degree to have to "prove" anything - it should be evident - and it is. The way I describe it is the only way it carries resonance with the whole story in content, and theme. Romances are born from pure feelings, not mixed up madness and trauma.

But Cloud's actions after the HAHW scene tell us he didn't get over Aerith's death.

Nor Zack's. I suppose he was romantically involved with him too? Please say yes.

There really isn't anything in this paragraph for me to respond to because it's just a bunch of words meant to diminish my beliefs.

Nope. Not at all. There's a lot to respond to. You need to explain how my approach carries less sense and less narrative consistency to the characters than your approach. If you can't, you may have finally just started to hit the truth.

So...the date mechanism was created because Cloud was ill, not because of the love triangle? ...really?

You act like the two ideas are mutually exclusive. They're not. The love triangle forms the date mechanics, but the actual mechanics are played true to the character of Cloud by having Cloud not himself during this period. Because Cloud isn't Cloud, you can fuck around with his behaviour and it doesn't damage the character - because he's not himself within the context of the story.

My point was simple: some choices have official outcomes. What are you rambling about now?

And my point was simpler: that all choices play true to Cloud in the context of those moments, because Cloud isn't himself. The ramble was there because you missed it the first time. Third time lucky.

Why does SE include Cloud's date on the, "For the One I Love" page if the date isn't meant to show romance?
Why does SE picture the Clerith date (ie: the canon date) if we aren't meant to apply the FTOIL page to their date in particular?

Oh dear, you really shouldn't have gone there.
http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

We know the Clerith date is canon, and we know SE views this date as an expression of love because they included it on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the Clerith *IS* significant to SE in terms of showing love. Sadly, your opinion about the date isn't what matters. It's SE's opinion that matters.

Oh dear... seems SE agrees with me. Not only is that date described as being simply a point where different people may appear before Cloud dependent on his actions, it goes on to the Highwind sequence:

"The night before the final battle

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

Double ouch! So if Tifa's feelings for Cloud are.... then Cloud's feelings for Tifa are...?

Again again, you didn't need SE to tell you that. It's there.

The obvious answer to Nomura's question is that the ending of Kingdom Hearts was meant to portray Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. Since Nomura says the ending of KH can "ANSWER QUESTIONS," about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII, the point I'm making shouldn't be too hard to comprehend.

The point is hard to comprehend. You have source materials that are focused on FF7 that tell you the answer. And the game itself. And the novellas. And Advent Children. Etc. It's all there, in this post. Above me, if you've forgot. So what you can interpret at the end of a game that... isn't canon and doesn't tell you much, a game incidentally plays the same fun with Tifa in the sequel, isn't really worth focusing on. Focus on canon material, answer is there.

You are still using circumstantial evidence to prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. Where is the evidence of a *ROMANTIC* relationship?

"The night before the final battle

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

Thought I'd use it twice. It's actually got what you're after: mutual feelings.

And the reason the living arrangements of other couples don't need to be debated is because SE tells us, unequivocally, what other couples are canon. Remember, the only love triangle where the protagonist is pictured with both of his love interests on the FTOIL page is FFVII.

Love triangle it is. Aeris thinks she loves Cloud. Tifa thinks she loves Cloud. Unless Aeries loves Cloud, Cloud loves Tifa, and Tifa loves Aeris, screaming love triangle proving anything proves nothing. Both girls are into Cloud during the first disk. That's the LT.

This couple have more than most. We actually get a sex scene in FF7. Case of Tifa is brutally honest, and so is all the localised material too.

Can we stop this now? Isn't it, as Ryu points out, over at this point? You've got your mutual love, its Cloud./Tifa And you've still not explained how if there is mutual love between Cloud and Tifa, how Cloud skipping to Tifa as soon as he can makes a mutual romance with Aeris even the slightest bit inviting to audiences? Makes him a bit of a heel, eh?
 
Last edited:

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Goodbye Charlie said:
Aeris and Cloud saw Tifa rushed to Sector 7. They both wanted to get her out, Aeris came up with the scheme, they risked their lives. Aeris is smart and tenacious, Cloud is confused but eager to protect those he cares for and feels a duty to: Tifa and Aeris. One he wants to stay home where its safe, Aeris, the other he wants out of the hands of the grubby local seedy boss. End of.

It doesn't need any more dissection because that's all there is to really glean there without overanalysis.
Would Cloud have rescued Tifa if Aerith had not asked him to go with her? Maybe. But the script tells us that Aerith asking Cloud to go with her is what prompted him to think of a way in.

Would Cloud have rescued Tifa if he wasn't worried about Aerith's safety? Maybe. But the script tells us that it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that caused him to put aside his reservations about causing too much of a commotion and being a man.

This entire argument began because people wanted to show Cloud also cared for Tifa during disc 1, therefore rendering Barret's observation incorrect. However, once one examines the script, Tifa's rescue tells us that Aerith's safety was Cloud's top priority. If you want to argue that Cloud also cared for Tifa's safety, fine. But the script tells us that Aerith's safety was Cloud's top priority. Tifa's rescue strengthens (not weakens) Barret's observation.

Goodbye Charlie said:
I don't think anyone needs to give you anymore proof than is already there. Quite frankly, personally, whether kids are there or not, doesn't really matter because the sequential narrative of the whole shebang makes it clear what Tifa and Cloud feel. Marlene is an example of their extended family, and how Barrett trusts them as a positive influence, rather than a pair of icky people living together dysfunctionally, one yearning for the other and the other mourning for the love of the yearner's best friend.
The narrative is that four people who were displaced after Metero formed a family, rebuilt Seventh Heaven, and decided to call that home. Just because Barret is away on missions doesn't remove him from the family. Does a Father who travels for work cease to be a member of his family?

The creation of this family had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's (possible) romantic relationship.

Goodbye Charlie said:
No it doesn't. You've got a room full of people here who have debunked every comment you make, added to the fact, as I've said, by making CLoud romantically involved with Aeris makes no sense to his wider story, and in fact trivialises his "romantic" relationship with Aeris by how fast he moves on.
In THIS post, Hawkeye agrees that Cloud's own actions show he had romantic feelings for Aerith. So when you say people have "debunked" every argument I've made -- well, that's simply not true. Furthermore, someone disagreeing with my opinion doesn't mean my opinion is "debunked" -- it simply means we have a difference of opinion.

Goodbye Charlie said:
Beyond the fact it's been confirmed in related media, quite jovially as if it wasn't a big revelation but just a scene they did where they had to decide how they slept together, it is indicative within the scene, within the context of what they've just shared, which was very intimate (your thoughts made manifest) and the reaction of the crew. It wasn't a kiss. Deal with it.
Huh? Where is it proven that Cloud and Tifa had sex and not a romantic kiss? Is there a deleted scene I'm missing? Didn't the creators decide to tone down this scene and make it less risqué?

Goodbye Charlie said:
No it doesn't. You've yet to prove why Cloud, the man who was under many different pressures, fears, mental anxieties and personality trauma is clearly more romantically involved with a girl he'd only just met, showed little but confusion to her romantic notion and was from the start of his story always focused on Tifa, as being "more romantic".
Well, for one, Cloud continues to long for Aerith's presence after her death and after he recovers from his breakdown. Cloud's guilt is tied to his romantic feelings for Aerith, IMO.

Kitase:
"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

Kitase wanted to express, through Aerith's death, what it feels like when you lose someone that you, "LOVED VERY MUCH". Then, he releates it directly to Cloud by saying sometimes people think, "If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently". It is obvious that Cloud's love for Aerith and her death was meant to highlight exactly what Kitase wanted to convey.

Goodbye Charlie said:
The bottomline, and you hate it, but Maiden shows Aeris is AS bad. Her feelings are mixed up with Zack. There's a part of her that cannot get passed the man, and she sees that more in Cloud than she wants to admit. She can't get passed Zack, Cloud is stuck with repressed memories over his true obligations and is mimicing the behaviour of Aeris' ex boyfriend.
It is stated that Aerith's interest in Cloud initially began because he reminded her of Zack, but that her interest in Cloud grows and she begins to like Cloud for who he was, not for who he reminded her of.

Goodbye Charlie said:
Can you not see, how that doesn't tell a romantic story. Romantic stories come from true feelings for each other, Aeris and Cloud have feelings mixed with other people. I think he cares for Aeris, in some ways she's probably a substitute for Tifa in so far as the role he plays with Aeris is the role he'd dreamed of having with Tifa - a tough SOLDIER who will protect the person he cherishes. That isn't to say he doesn't care for Aeris in her own right. I think he does. I think he feels he owes Aeris after her death too - I would suggest he feels she gave him far more than he could give her, in fact all he gave her was death. Those are narratively logical assumptions based on the motivations, backgrounds and futures of all characters - not singular scenes.
Cloud and Aerith's story is of a tragic love -- sort of like Jack and Rose in Titanic.

Nomura, concerning Aerith's death:
"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both eastern and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?"

Nomura talks about *AVOIDING* the cliche' where the, "protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love." So how did they avoid the cliche'? Instead of having the protagonist die, they had the person the protagonist was in love with die.

Goodbye Charlie said:
You act like the two ideas are mutually exclusive. They're not. The love triangle forms the date mechanics, but the actual mechanics are played true to the character of Cloud by having Cloud not himself during this period. Because Cloud isn't Cloud, you can fuck around with his behaviour and it doesn't damage the character - because he's not himself within the context of the story.
This is what you said originally, "Nope, it's because he's not himself the player is allowed is to subvert Cloud's character because he's not well..."

Now you're saying the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive after saying the only reason players are allowed to subvert Cloud's character is because he's not well? Nice backtrack!

Goodbye Charlie said:
And my point was simpler: that all choices play true to Cloud in the context of those moments, because Cloud isn't himself. The ramble was there because you missed it the first time. Third time lucky.
But some choices have canon/official outcomes.

Goodbye Charlie said:
Why are you linking me to an article I've already read?

It is irrelevant that Cloud and Aerith's date isn't mentioned by name because...

SE views Cloud's date romantic enough to include it on the FTOIL page.
+
SE has made the Clerith date canon, plus it makes the most sense narratively ("promised date").
=
It is irrelevant that the FTOIL page doesn't mention the Clerith date by name because not only is it pictured on the FTOIL page, but we know it is the canon date from other sources.

SE views Cloud's date as romantic enough to include on the FTOIL page. The Clerith date is not only canon for multiple reasons, but it is also pictured on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the Clerith date is equivalent to other romantic moments in the Final Fantasy series according to SE.

Goodbye Charlie said:
Oh dear... seems SE agrees with me. Not only is that date described as being simply a point where different people may appear before Cloud dependent on his actions, it goes on to the Highwind sequence:

"The night before the final battle

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

Double ouch! So if Tifa's feelings for Cloud are.... then Cloud's feelings for Tifa are...?
Part of the tragedy of Cloud and Aerith's story is that they were never able to express these mutual feelings -- mutual feelings that would have led to a marriage, according to SE.

Just because Cloud and Aerith didn't express mutual feelings doesn't mean they didn't have mutual feelings.

Evidence also tells us Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings did not create a romantic relationship between them. Just ask Nomura :P
 

Akai Hana

Unknown Creature
AKA
Akai Hana, Komori Yui
First, sorry for the long post.


BlankBeat said:
1. Cloud did not have all of his memories associated with Tifa yet.
Cloud did remember his promise to Tifa to always save her whenever she in a pinch. And he remembers that before meeting with Aerith.
2. Look at the script.
After Cloud tells Aerith it would be too dangerous by herself, Aerith says, "Do you want to go with me?" Only after Aerith asks Cloud to go with her does he start to ponder another way in. It was Aerith asking Cloud to go with her that prompted him to think of different ways to go in.
Then, after Cloud couldn't think of a way to get in, he says, "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." This tells us that although Cloud didn't think there would be a way to get in, the overriding factor in Cloud's mind was Aerith's safety.
If Cloud had been alone, Aerith's safety wouldn't have been there to worry about and thus, Cloud would have had no reason to put aside his reservations about being a guy and causing too much of a commotion.
So, you expect us to believe that Cloud won’t save Tifa because it will cause too much commotions if he infiltrate Don’s Mansion? You expect us to accept that Cloud only agree to cross dressing himself because he didn’t want anything happen to Aerith and because he didn’t want Aerith to go alone into Don’s Mansion?
Do you even register how ABSURD it sounds?
So you said Cloud going into the trouble finding all sorts of things for him to cross dressing because of Aerith? Wow, brazo! I didn’t know Clerith!Cloud is far more idiot bastard, selfish prick than he originally is.
Look at the script.
And yes, I honestly believe that without Aerith, Cloud would have decided he wouldn't be able to rescue Tifa because he's a guy and because barraging in would have caused too much of a ruckus (he admits to this).
What caused Cloud to go in Don's mansion?
1. Aerith asked Cloud if he wanted to go with her.
2. Cloud didn't want Aerith to to, "alone".
3. Aerith came up with a plan to dress Cloud up like a woman.
If Cloud had not been concerned for Aerith's safety, and if Aerith had not thought of dressing Cloud of like a woman, I honestly believe Cloud would have determined that he wouldn't be able to rescue Tifa (this is based on his own conclusion that he's a man and that barging in would cause too much of a commotion).
O God.
Cloud admits he didn’t want to start a commotion. He never said he wouldn’t be able to save Tifa! If Aerith wasn’t come up with the cross-dressing idea, he might as well barge in into the mansion and Aerith only provided with the less-harmed idea.
You know what, BB. You’re really good with twisting narrative point. Congratulations.
...but Cloud only thought of "busting in" when Aerith asked him to go with her.
Octo already provide with the script.
As I've stated before...
You can *ASSUME* Cloud would have rescued Tifa without Aerith. And although I don't completely disagree with that assumption, THE SCRIPT TELLS US AERITH IS THE REASON CLOUD DID IT. That's the part you are overlooking. The script tells us, point blank, that Aerith is the reason Cloud decided to go in Don's mansion. Your hypothetical are pointless because the script gives us the answer.
No, it’s YOUR hypothetical are absurd and pointless because the script said Cloud wants to save Tifa not because he didn’t want Aerith go alone!
You have to put down your Clerith glasses BB. Your arguments are sound stupid and you know that.
...because he said he didn't want Aerith to go alone?
Aerith asked Cloud to go with her, which is what prompted him to think of ways in. Cloud did *NOT* think of ways to get in until Aerith asked him to go with her. Then, when Cloud couldn't think of a way in, he said it didn't matter because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.
Without Aerith asking Cloud to go with her, and without Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety, there is no evidence that Cloud would have gone in or figured out an alternative way in.
I had a heart attack while reading this. This is so effingly crazy.
Elmyra said (in-front of Cloud) that once Aerith has made up her mind, there is no point in trying to convince her otherwise.
Yes, and?
After Cloud agreed to go in Don's mansion because Aerith asked him to and because he was worried for her safety, he agrees that the next course of action is to see if Tifa is alright.
And the panties quote is optional. But if you want to use it as evidence, I'd simply say, the plan to save Tifa was already agreed upon by Cloud and Aerith. So of course he's going to say, "...well, if it's to save Tifa..." -- that's the plan he agreed to because of his desire to keep Aerith safe.
I died.
Cloud did the Mako reactors for money.
Remember, Cloud didn't have all of his memories associated with Tifa while she was captured by Don.
He did remember his promise.
Tifa: "So! You're really leaving!? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!?"
Cloud: -optional dialogue- "How can you say that!"/ "...Sorry"
Tifa: "You forgot the promise, too."
Cloud: "Promise?"
(Tifa looks down.)
Tifa: "So you DID forget. Remember.... Cloud. It was seven years ago..."
(Cloud looks up. The scene fades to black. It fades in again; Cloud and Tifa are standing by a well. The sky is full of stars.)
Tifa: "Look, the well. Do you remember?"
(Cloud nods.)
Cloud: "Yeah.... back then."
Cloud: "I thought you would never come, and I was getting a little cold."
Mako Reactor 1 yes, he did that because of money but Mako Reactor 5 no. After remembering his promise to Tifa, he agrees to help. If he really did that because of money, when he met Barret again after Don Corneo scene, he would ask for his money straight away like how he did before that.
All I'm saying is that the children Cloud and Tifa have are not a result of their romantic relationship. The children Cloud and Tifa have are a result of circumstances that have NOTHING to do with their (possible) romantic relationship. Therefore, this family can't be used to support the idea of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.
Same as well as your statement that Barret’s observation had something to do with CloudxAerith relation. That idea cannot be accepted.
Huh? Where is it proven that Cloud and Tifa had sex and not a romantic kiss? Is there a deleted scene I'm missing? Didn't the creators decide to tone down this scene and make it less risqué?
They had tone down the scene not deleting the idea of them having sex.
Part of the tragedy of Cloud and Aerith's story is that they were never able to express these mutual feelings -- mutual feelings that would have led to a marriage, according to SE.
Just because Cloud and Aerith didn't express mutual feelings doesn't mean they didn't have mutual feelings.
Evidence also tells us Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings did not create a romantic relationship between them. Just ask Nomura
Here read this.
The main thing to keep in mind is that the base of FF7's story is Tetsuya Nomura's creation. Cloud was and is in fact an idealistic version of the creator; Cloud carries many of Nomura's personality traits and tastes (even the way Nomura speaks/writes is similar to Cloud's dialogue). Moreover he also created the heroines which they would be attracted to. It's not rare to see writers and artists using self-insertion and wish fulfilment in their work, so the truth about the 'Love Triangle' could only come from him.
So what is the truth? When an interview was made public with FF7 Dismantling, Japanese fans revolted at his honest and blunt statement, "Let's kill Aerith and bring out Tifa". Many players were unhappy with Aerith's death being based on his decision to include a new character who would take the spotlight, and not some deep, metaphorical reason. He has since retracted and downplayed any statements regarding who Cloud "loves" and Aerith's death. Later interviews with him on the subject have left readers with vague answers, or Nomura saying "it's up to the player" to avoid losing more of his own fans.
After all, self-insertion is about making a character based on yourself, whom everyone is supposed to like and admire unaccountably. Nomura himself said that he wants Cloud to be liked and popular. Cloud was meant to be the character in FF7 which players place themselves in, but because Cloud mostly fulfils Nomura's wishes and not the player's, it wasn't the case. In the end, the truth is what Nomura wishes.
If you compare FF7 & FF8, there are glaring and undeniable similarities between Cloud & Squall and Tifa & Rinoa. As Nomura created Cloud to be an idealistic version of himself, so did he create Squall. Squall at the start was far too similar to Cloud, and Yoshinori Kitase (director) had Squall changed further. Nomura created Tifa to be his ideal woman for Cloud, much in the same way he created Rinoa's design and dialogue to be ideal for Squall. Both Tifa and Rinoa were designed based on Nomura's personal preferences, as a result of his self-insertion.
 
I thought Nomura was in love with Gackt.

I don't know, maybe I'm just bored or procrastinating or something, but I find myself taking an interest in this. I'm kind of mesmerised by all the details in BB's posts, but I just don't get what she's trying to prove. What's your point, BB? Are you trying to prove that Aerith is Cloud's canon love interest and that at no point in the Compilation does he feel any romantic love for Tifa? I'm really curious because despite the length and complexity of your posts, I just don't understand what you're driving at. Can you put it in a nutshell?
 

Lex

Administrator
Why do you keep going in circles, I don't understand it. If you're going to continue repeating the same stuff over and over I just don't understand what you're getting out of it. You're never going to change anyone's mind, and at this point it's not even discussion or debate.

*throws hands in air*
 

Carlie

CltrAltDelicious
AKA
Chloe Frazer
I'm just came in here to say that BlankBeat is clearly an AerithxTifa shipper deceiving you all into believing he's a Clerith shipper, to BlankBeat I say, your deceit is unnecessary basically everyone here would approve of Aerith and Tifa getting hot and steamy with each other.

That is all. *rides into the sunset to spread more AerTi love*
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Not that I expect a pesky little thing like the truth to make much of a difference in this embarrassment of a discussion, but the timeline from Cloud's profile in the Ultimania Omega (pg. 14) says this:

ティファを助けるため、エアリスの提案でしぶしぶ女装。

"For the sake of helping Tifa, he reluctantly disguises himself as a woman at Aerith's suggestion."

http://i.imgur.com/WAEJ4V3.jpg

Also, this on pg. 80:

エアリスとともにセブンスヘブンを目指すクラウドの目の前を、チョコボ車に乗ったティファが通り過ぎていった。行き先は、女好きで有名なコルネオという男の住む館。ティファの身にいったい何が?真相を突き止めるため、クラウドは女装して館へ潜入することに……。

"While heading for Seventh Heaven with Aerith, Tifa passes right by Cloud in a chocobo cart. Her destination is the mansion belonging to Corneo, a man well-known for lechery. What the hell is Tifa doing? In order to discover the truth, Cloud disguises himself as a woman and infiltrates the mansion ..."

http://i.imgur.com/5ir2GbP.jpg

Can't wait to hear why it has nothing to do with Cloud being concerned about Tifa next. :monster:
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
While waiting for Blankbeat's response, here's a short meta on why I think in the context of FFVII, Cloud's line "I can meet her there" is not romantic.

This is what the elder in Cosmo Canyon says:
…The Promised Land. So you want to know…? There is no one place called the Promised Land. That’s what I believe. No no, it does exist. Hmmm…… you can say that too. In other words, it doesn’t exist for us, but it did for the Ancients. The Promised Land is the resting place of the Ancients. The life of the Ancients is one continuous journey. A journey to grow trees and plants, produce animals, and to raise Mako energy. Their harsh journeys continued throughout their lives… The place they returned to after their long journey… Their burial land is the Promised Land. Huh? Supreme Happiness? I believe that, for the Ancients, it was the moment that they were able to return to their Planet. At that moment they were released from their fate, and gained their supreme happiness… At least that’s what I believe. I really don’t know whether or not it’s the truth now.
I think Cloud’s line about seeing her there in a meta sense is meeting Aerith where she is happy. She has fulfilled her journey as a Cetra and now one with the planet. It’s about Aerith’s happiness.
Cloud: I think I’m beginning to understand… An answer from the Planet…the Promised Land…I think I can meet her… there.

When Cloud defeated Sephiroth, they knew that Aerith’s Holy will now activate. Aerith has now completed her journey, she’s released from her burden. The Planet answered her prayer.

The Promised Land being dependent on the person is first mentioned on MWTTP such as Sephiroth’s land being the Northern Crater, then it it’s the Advent Children guidebooks where Cloud’s place is with his family and friend. In FFVII, this “personal” promised land is out of context, so it wouldn’t make sense that Cloud is speaking about his happiness since nothing refers to it in this game.

How about Tifa’s line “let’s go meet her?”

I think this is Tifa reassuring Cloud they will definitely meet her again. This is may be her expressing that they might die at that moment so they will see her again, or this could be Tifa thinking that one day they’ll rejoin her anyway.

/meta
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
In FFVII, this “personal” promised land is out of context, so it wouldn’t make sense that Cloud is speaking about his happiness since nothing refers to it in this game.

I'm actually inclined to disagree. Based on what Elder Bugah said ("There is no one place called the Promised Land" and "Supreme Happiness? I believe that, for the Ancients, it was the moment that they were able to return to their Planet. At that moment they were released from their fate, and gained their supreme happiness…"), I always argued in debates that the Promised Land was different for each person, well before Maiden Who Travels the Planet and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania's Story Playback for Advent Children came along. :monster:

For me, those sources just confirmed what I already knew. I really think that was always written into the mythology.
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
I'm actually inclined to disagree. Based on what Elder Bugah said ("There is no one place called the Promised Land" and "Supreme Happiness? I believe that, for the Ancients, it was the moment that they were able to return to their Planet. At that moment they were released from their fate, and gained their supreme happiness…"), I always argued in debates that the Promised Land was different for each person, well before Maiden Who Travels the Planet and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania's Story Playback for Advent Children came along. :monster:

For me, those sources just confirmed what I already knew. I really think that was always written into the mythology.

The way I see it, Elder emphasized it's not a real place to go to, but rather a state.

Yeah that can be true, but I still don't see how Cloud is talking about his own supreme happiness in that line. I still hold he's talking about Aerith's happiness.

/meta
 

Selphie Tilmitt

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Maidenofwar
Ehhh I don't know I still find that romantic :puppy: Cloud wanting to go see Aerith somewhere she's happy/where he thinks she's happy, I dunno to me kind of harkens back to the Cosmo Canyon scene where Aerith is sad because she thought she was all alone, and the beginning where Aerith was talking about how she would get out of Midgar and find her Promised Land ... seems if Cloud were paying attention there/wanted her to find her happiness/thought she had found her Promised Land ... all in all that seems romantic to me :puppy: Am I weird? :P I don't know that's just what I think about it
:kittyhug:
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
In order to refresh my memory, I recently played FFVII until the Shinra headquarters.

Observation #1:
Tifa: "Corneo is looking for a bride."
"Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then....
...and, well....."
"Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight."

(Aerith turns.)

Aerith: "Sorry... but I overheard..."
"If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?"

Tifa: "I guess so, but..."

Aerith: "We have two here, right?"

Cloud: "No, Aerith! I can't have you get involved."

Aerith: "Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?"

Cloud: "No, I don't want Tifa in...."


When Tifa presents her plan to be one of Don's brides, Cloud has no reaction. It is only until Aerith wants to partake in Tifa's plan does Cloud react. In fact, Aerith calls Cloud out for this obvious double standard. And although Cloud tries to backtrack, it's obvious what just happened: Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's.

From the moment Cloud met Aerith, his top priority was to protect her -- from the Turks, from the slums, from Don Corneo, and from Shinra. At every turn, Aerith's safety was Cloud's #1 concern. This is why I believe SE decided to have Barret make his observation that Aerith seemed to be the first person messedup!Cloud was willing to fight for besides himself.

Observation #2:
In a somewhat optional piece of dialogue, Elmyra says this to Cloud after telling him to leave in the middle of the night:

"The last thing Aerith needs is to get her feelings hurt again..."

This is an obvious reference to Aerith's past relationship with Zack. Not only is Elmyra beginning to view Cloud and Aerith as a possible romantic couple, but SE is hinting that Cloud could be Aerith's new boyfriend through Elmyra's words. In fact, shortly after Elmyra makes her statement, Zack is referenced when Cloud and Aerith share a date in the park. Coincidence? I think not!

It seems obvious that Elmyra's comment, Cloud's flashback regarding his Mother's desire that he have an 'older' girlfriend, and Cloud and Aerith's date in the park, were all meant to highlight the romantic bond beginning to form between Cloud and Aerith. In fact, the entire sequence of events from when Cloud falls in Aerith's Church to when they rescue Tifa, was meant to set up their romantic relationship.

Observation #3:
Tifa's jealousy begins immediately.

Tifa: "...And you are?"
"Hey you're the one with Cloud in the park..."

Aerith: "Right, with Cloud."

Tifa: "Oh....."

Aerith: "Don't worry. We just met. It's nothing."

Tifa: "What do you mean, 'Don't worry'... about what?"
"No, don't misunderstand."
"Cloud and I grew up together. Nothing more."

.............

Cloud: "Hey, give me a chance to explain."
"I'm dressed like this... because there was no other way to get in here."
"I'm all right. Aerith helped me out."

Tifa: "Oh, Aerith did..."


This is why Tifa let's her, "peevish feelings" slip in the Shinra jail cell -- she begins to see (very early in the game) that Cloud and Aerith started forming their own world together. In fact, the entire sequence of events from when Cloud falls in Aerith's Church to when they rescue Tifa, was meant to show the "world" Cloud and Aerith started forming together.

Observation #4:
Barret says this to Cloud,

"Havin' everyone worried like that you don't give a damn 'bout no one but yourself!"

This is why I believe when Barret says Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for besides himself, it is essentially saying Aerith seems to be the first person messedup!Cloud cares for besides himself. Given Cloud's protectiveness over Aerith from the very moment he met her, Barret's observation is very accurate.

Observation #5:
It is unclear why Cloud decided to stay and help AVALANCHE.

Tifa: "You remember now? ...Our promise?"

Cloud: "I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep.... the promise."


Cloud says he's not a hero nor famous, so he can't keep the promise. Then, Barret interrupts and eventually agrees to pay Cloud more for the next mission.

It is simply up to one's interpretation why Cloud decided to stay. But if you think it was his promise to Tifa that made him stay, why does Cloud say he can't keep his promise to Tifa because he's not a hero and not famous?

Observation #6:
Barret: "Marlene!!"
"MAR---LE---NE!!"

(He runs to one side.)

Barret: "Biggs!"

(He runs to the other side.)

Barret: "Wedge!!"

(He runs back to the center.)

Barret: "Jessie!"

(He punches the debris repeatedly.)

Barret: "GOD DAMN IT!!"
"DAMMIT!!"
"DAMMIT ALL TO HELL!!"

(He stops; his shoulders are hitching.)

Barret: "What the hell's it all for!?"
"ARGGHHHH!!!"

Cloud: "Hey, Barret!"

Tifa: "Barret!"

Barret: "ARGGHHHH!!!"

(Cloud and Tifa run up to him.)

Cloud: "Hey!"

Tifa: "Barret, stop... Please stop, Barret."

Barret: "URGHHHH!!!"

(He fires on the pile of debris, sweeping it with bullets... then stops,
and falls to his knees.)

Barret: "God damn..."

(He punches the ground. The scene fades.)

(The scene fades back in. Barret is sitting on the end of the slide. Cloud
and Tifa stand nearby.)

Barret: "Marlene..."

Tifa: "....... Barret......?"
"Marlene is.... I think Marlene is safe."

(Barret looks up.)

Barret: "....huh?"

Tifa: "Right before they took Aerith, she said, 'Don't worry, she's all
right.' She was probably talking about Marlene."

(Barret stands.)

Barret: "R, really!?"

Tifa: "But..."

Barret: "Biggs...... Wedge.... Jessie......"

Cloud: "All three of them were in the pillar."

Barret: "Think I don't know that?"

(He turns, not facing either of them.)

Barret: "But... we, all of us fought together."

(He sits on the slide again.)

Barret: "I don't wanna think of them as dead!"

Tifa: "And the other people in Sector 7."

Barret: "This is all screwed up!"
"They destroyed an entire village just to get to us! They killed
so many people...."

Tifa: "...are you saying it's our fault? Because AVALANCHE was here? I
innocent people lost their lives because of us?"

(He stands up and shakes his head.)

Barret: "No, Tifa!"
"That ain't it! Hell no!!"
"It ain't us! It's the damn Shinra! It's never been nobody but
the Shinra!"

(Cloud steps back, facing away from Barret and Tifa. Barret faces away
and raises his arms.)

Barret: "They're evil and destroyin' our planet just to..."
"build their power and line their own damn pockets with gold!"
"If we don't get rid of them, they're gonna kill this planet!"

(He turns around.)

Barret: "Our fight ain't never gonna be over until we get rid of them!"

(Tifa shakes her head.)

Tifa: "............I don't know."

Barret: "What don't you know!? You don't believe me?"

Tifa: "It's not that. I'm not sure about ... me. My feelings."

(Barret faces Cloud, whose back is still turned.)

Barret: "An' what about you?"

(Cloud looks up, still not turning.)

Cloud: "..........."

(He leaves the playground.)

Barret: "Yo!"
"Where's he think he's goin'?"

Tifa: "Oh! Aerith!"


For most of this conversation, Cloud remains deep in thought. Then, once Cloud abruptly leaves, Tifa realizes what Cloud was thinking about -- Aerith. This lends even more evidence in support of Barret's observation.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom