The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Can't believe I'm doing this, but anyway...
Hawk,

I will happily respond to your quotes, and I'll do so without getting belligerent or personal. BTW, I genuinely wanted to know the full context of your quotes.

Oh, and I spent a great deal of time crafting this response because I do think we can find common ground. But I thoroughly expect the personal attacks to continue and for my motives to be questioned. However, before I respond to your quotes, I would like to present my overall argument in (perhaps) a more articulate fashion.

Is my main goal to show that Cloud didn't care for anyone else? No. My main goal is to show that from the very moment Cloud fell in Aerith's Church, she is the one person Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud, which is why I believe Barret's observation is just as much about his character development as it is about highlighting Cloud's romantic bond with Aerith.
At some point on Disk 1, Cloud shows concern for everybody in the party.

Tifa -- Cloud reiterates the promise to come rescue her that he made as a kid
Barret -- Cloud tells him to be careful when he goes to confront Dyne
Red XIII -- goes with him to the Cave of the Gi
Cait Sith -- grieves over him when he dies even if he's a robot
Yuffie -- saves her from Corneo
Vincent -- tells him what happened with Sephiroth and lets him come with them
Cid -- listens to his story
Aerith -- protects her along with everyone else

Cloud showing concern and wanting to protect people is just the way he is.
As gamers, we were meant to witness Cloud's unique and unexpected care for Aerith so that when Sephiroth murdered her, it was that much more heartbreaking. Sephiroth didn't just murder any character, he murdered the character Cloud showed the most care and concern for. He killed off the character that had a romantic future with Cloud, a future that according to SE would have resulted in a marriage. It's no secret that SE tried to make Cloud and Aerith's relationship special so that when she died, it was that much more painful to us. And how did SE show that Cloud and Aerith's relationship was something special? By showing us time and time again that Aerith's safety meant so much to Cloud:
Everyone's safety means a lot to Cloud. He's been trying to protect people ever since he was a kid and followed Tifa up Mt. Nibel.
1. Cloud agreed to protect Aerith from the Turks.
The Turks are an organization you would want to protect anyone from because they report directly to Shin-Ra. As it is, the degree that Cloud protects Aerith from the Turks is left up to the player.
2. Cloud tried to leave Aerith at home so she wouldn't face danger in the slums.
Cloud leaves Aerith behind because he said he would escort her home, which he did, and is now returning to AVALANCHE.
3. Cloud tried to prevent Aerith from going after Tifa's cart.
If it was up to Cloud, Aerith wouldn't even have been there. And it's in the script that going after Tifa is Cloud's idea first.
4. Cloud agreed to go in Corneo's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.
Cloud was going to go into Corneo's mansion with or without Aerith. It was just more convent to go along with her.
5. Cloud didn't want Aerith to partake in Tifa's plan to trap Don Corneo.
Okay, you are a hardened warrior who could probably take out everyone in the mansion if you wanted to. You also have a high sense of honor that goes along with your desire to protect people. Exactly why would you want to bring in a non-combatant (or so you think) with you to storm a playboy mansion?
6. Cloud's top concern after the plate fell was to rescue Aerith.
From the evil organization who hires creepy mad scientists... this is more of a "decent human being" test then a "do you like this person the most" test. Besides, Tifa is the one to suggest they (AVALANCHE) go rescue her.
Aerith is, by far and away, the character Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no other character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud during disc 1. So if you look at it from that standpoint, it makes complete and total sense why SE included Barret's observation. By showing us time and time again that Aerith's safety meant so much to Cloud, it made Aerith's death that much more heartbreaking. To me, it shouldn't be hard to see how Cloud and Aerith fit the classic description of a tragic love story. In fact, it's obvious from the get-go that this was SE's intention.
You are aware that FFVII takes a number of classic tropes and inverts them, right?
I agree with this quote. Cloud agrees to disguise himself as a woman to help Tifa because he didn't want Aerith to help her alone. I don't disagree that Cloud agreed to help Tifa; but it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially caused him to agree to help Tifa. Aerith's safety was Cloud's primary concern, rescuing Tifa was Cloud's secondary concern. To me, this makes the case for Barret's observation that much more compelling.
See above. It's Cloud's idea to go after Tifa, Aerith taggs along with him.
The only reason I'm being such a stickler about this is because I don't believe Cloud rescuing Tifa discredits Barret's observation that Aerith, in particular, seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for.
He said he would rescue Tifa all the way back in Nibelheim before he even went out for SOLDIER. If that's not wanting to fight for someone, I don't know what is.
In fact, I provided this as further evidence that Cloud put's Aerith's safety as his primary concern:
Tifa: "Corneo is looking for a bride."
"Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then....
...and, well....."
"Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight."

(Aerith turns.)

Aerith: "Sorry... but I overheard..."
"If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?"

Tifa: "I guess so, but..."

Aerith: "We have two here, right?"

Cloud: "No, Aerith! I can't have you get involved."

Aerith: "Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?"

Cloud: "No, I don't want Tifa in...."

During this scene, Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's. In fact, Cloud isn't concerned about Tifa's safety until Aerith points out his double standard. Cloud's double standard suggests that without Aerith's safety being at risk, Cloud may not have been prompted to rescue Tifa in the first place. This entire situation strengthens, not weakens, Barret's observation.
Might have to do with the fact that Cloud knows Tifa is capable of defending herself, and he isn't aware Aerith is able to do that. Also, Tifa is meant to come across as the tough-as-nails bar girl, while Aerith is meant to come across as an innocent girl who doesn't know what she's getting into. However, the opposite is closer to the truth.
This quote simply states the facts: Cloud dresses up as a woman and infiltrates Corneo's mansion. It doesn't tell us *WHY* Cloud did what he did. Do you know what tells us *WHY* Cloud did what he did? The script:

Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look."
"I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"

…

Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"

I don't disagree that Cloud wanted to rescue Tifa. But Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety cannot be ignored, diminished, or overlooked. It was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that compelled him to follow through and rescue Tifa.

Then, when Tifa presents her plan to be one of Don's brides, Cloud has no reaction. It is only until Aerith wants to partake in Tifa's plan does Cloud react. In fact, Aerith calls Cloud out for this obvious double standard. And although Cloud tries to backtrack, it's obvious what just happened: Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's.
See above. Cloud decides to rescue Tifa first, so that's a given. Including Aerith only complicates things more.
Then, once the plate falls and crushes Sector 7, Barret and Tifa begin mourning their losses, ranting and raving about Shinra, and discussing the whereabouts of Marlene. But Cloud is distracted. He's not partaking in their conversation and his mind seems to be elsewhere. Then, when Cloud abruptly leaves, Barret asks Tifa where she thinks he went. Tifa says, "Oh! Aerith!".
Maybe because that was who Tifa left Marlene with?
Cloud's mind was not focused on Shinra, the people that died in Sector 7, or Marlene. After Sector 7 was destroyed, Cloud was solely focused on rescuing Aerith. This continues the pattern that began when Cloud first agreed to protect Aerith from the Turks, and continued throughout the game ("But I'm--we're here for you"; burying Aerith in the lake by himself, deciding that he would meet Aerith in the Promised Land alone; etc.)
Erm... I'm pretty sure he was with all of AVALANCHE when those things happened...
Aerith is, by far and away, the character Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for during disc 1. There is no other character that evokes such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud. SE intentionally showed us Cloud's unique concern and care for Aerith so that when she died, it was that much more heartbreaking. So despite the controversy regarding this quote, they truly are a love that could never be.
The entire theme of Disk 1 is showing that Cloud, as he is presented in Disk 1 is not himself, or rather, there is a little bit of himself, but most of it is something else, namely the memories of his best friend. So, if Cloud has a special bond with Aerith, it's not the real Cloud who does, but his fake persona. In order to prove that Aerith "is the one person Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud," is what is really going on, you have to be able to do it from places other then Disk 1; you have to prove it with the real Cloud without any fake memories.

From what I have seen, this is why most of us are frustrated with your arguments. You aren't using quotes and game scripts that come from when Cloud was really himself, namely, Disk 2 and 3 and ACC, BC, CC, and DoC and the part of the Ultimanias that are about what Cloud feels after he has become himself again.
PS: I will eventually get around to the quote about Cloud staying because of his promise to Tifa. But jst because I'm curious: what book is that scan coming from? And is there any other contextual information that may be relevant?
I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it...
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Aerith's plan to dress Cloud up as a woman in order to help Tifa was only thought of *AFTER* Cloud had already expressed a concern for Aerith's safety and *AFTER* Aerith had invited Cloud to go with her. Therefore, the quote you guys are so vehemently clinging to is talking about the part in the script *AFTER* Cloud had already expressed a concern for Aerith's safety and *AFTER* Aerith had invited Cloud to go with her.

For the third time: I don't disagree that Cloud agreed to help Tifa; but it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially caused him to agree to help Tifa.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Then why did Square lie to us and tell us it was really for Tifa's safety?
 

Lex

Administrator
No one here has ever denied that he showed care towards Aerith during disc one, nor that his implied feelings towards her never existed. It was specifically set up that way as a red herring so that it would be more heartbreaking when she died. Everybody knows this.

Barret's observation is not incorrect from Barret's point of view. "SE's intent" as you put it, was to show the player that Barret is finally seeing a side of Cloud that cares about other people - in other words, he's finally a bit more human in Barret's eyes instead of a cold-hearted mercenary. It's not an indication that he has instantly fallen in love with her and everybody is noticing, which is what I suspect you think.

I've already given my standpoint on this numerous times - I think it's easy to come away with the idea that Cloud and Aerith were going to live happily ever after if you never get to the point where he finds himself. That she would somehow miraculously come back to life and they'd make a life together. But she died, Cloud regained himself (in the words of the game) and Cloud and Aerith were never romantically involved. She died too soon for that to become a thing, if it was ever going to. Even if you completely remove Tifa from the equation, all of those things are true.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Barret's line about Cloud fighting for other people is actually in his timeline in the Ultimania Omega (page 18), which does mention Cloud being concerned for Aerith.

「あんたでも他人のために使うことがあるんだな。見直したぜ」
――クラウドがエアリスを気づかうのを見て

解説
クラウドに反感を抱いていたバレットが、はじめて彼を見直す場面。以後、バレットのクラウドへの態度は軟化していく。

"Even you will fight for other people sometimes. I am impressed."
-- On seeing that Cloud is concerned about Aerith

Explanation:
Barret, who had been antagonistic towards Cloud, changes his view of him for the first time in this scene. After this, Barret's attitude towards Cloud softens.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Tifa -- Cloud reiterates the promise to come rescue her that he made as a kid
Barret -- Cloud tells him to be careful when he goes to confront Dyne
Red XIII -- goes with him to the Cave of the Gi
Cait Sith -- grieves over him when he dies even if he's a robot
Yuffie -- saves her from Corneo
Vincent -- tells him what happened with Sephiroth and lets him come with them
Cid -- listens to his story
Aerith -- protects her along with everyone else
Although some of your examples are a bit of a stretch (ie: Vincent, Cid), I do admit that Cloud eventually shows care for other characters. However, it was Aerith who initially caused Cloud to drop his, "cocky front," and laugh. Which I think is an accomplishment by itself.

But apparently you missed this part of my post:
Is my main goal to show that Cloud didn't care for anyone else? No. My main goal is to show that from the very moment Cloud fell in Aerith's Church, she is the one person Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for.

**There is no character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud**

So although Cloud may have shown concern and care for all the characters at one point or another, I believe it was SE's intention to show Cloud going above and beyond his normal caring behavior for Aerith in particular. I believe this was done to make her death that much more heartbreaking and to show us that Cloud felt a little something special for Aerith (ie: romantic feelings).

The entire theme of Disk 1 is showing that Cloud, as he is presented in Disk 1 is not himself, or rather, there is a little bit of himself, but most of it is something else, namely the memories of his best friend. So, if Cloud has a special bond with Aerith, it's not the real Cloud who does, but his fake persona. In order to prove that Aerith "is the one person Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud," is what is really going on, you have to be able to do it from places other then Disk 1; you have to prove it with the real Cloud without any fake memories.

From what I have seen, this is why most of us are frustrated with your arguments. You aren't using quotes and game scripts that come from when Cloud was really himself, namely, Disk 2 and 3 and ACC, BC, CC, and DoC and the part of the Ultimanias that are about what Cloud feels after he has become himself again.I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it...
Why does Cloud carry so much guilt over Aerith's death and long to meet her in the Promised Land if the feelings he developed for her during disc 1 are null-and-void because Cloud wasn't his complete self?

Ugh. Are we really still on this argument?
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Then why did Square lie to us and tell us it was really for Tifa's safety?
For the fourth time: I don't disagree that Cloud agreed to help Tifa; but it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially caused him to agree to help Tifa. Look at the script.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
BB, Cloud himself wants a word with you about your tendency to twist things around, trying to make everything all about Aerith and no one else evarz.

Cloud: I pity you. You just don't get it at all. There's not a thing I don't cherish!
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
I'm generally curious about what people think of this exchange:

Tifa: "Corneo is looking for a bride."
"Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then....
...and, well....."
"Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight."

(Aerith turns.)

Aerith: "Sorry... but I overheard..."
"If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?"

Tifa: "I guess so, but..."

Aerith: "We have two here, right?"

Cloud: "No, Aerith! I can't have you get involved."

Aerith: "Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?"

Cloud: "No, I don't want Tifa in...."


My opinion:
During this scene, Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's. In fact, Cloud isn't concerned about Tifa's safety until Aerith points out his double standard. Cloud's double standard suggests that without Aerith's safety being at risk, Cloud may not have been prompted to rescue Tifa in the first place. This entire situation strengthens, not weakens, Barret's observation.

--------------------

And I'd like to hear people's opinions on these two quotes in unison with each other.

Nomura, concerning Aerith’s death:

"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both eastern and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?”

Kitase follows that up with this:

"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think ‘If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.’ These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith’s death relatively early in the game.Feelings of reality and not Hollywood.”
 
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BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Barret's line about Cloud fighting for other people is actually in his timeline in the Ultimania Omega (page 18), which does mention Cloud being concerned for Aerith.

「あんたでも他人のために使うことがあるんだな。見直したぜ」
――クラウドがエアリスを気づかうのを見て

解説
クラウドに反感を抱いていたバレットが、はじめて彼を見直す場面。以後、バレットのクラウドへの態度は軟化していく。

"Even you will fight for other people sometimes. I am impressed."
-- On seeing that Cloud is concerned about Aerith

Explanation:
Barret, who had been antagonistic towards Cloud, changes his view of him for the first time in this scene. After this, Barret's attitude towards Cloud softens.
Given the amount of times Cloud expressed concern for Aerith safety, and given how protecting Aerith from the Turks and infiltrating Shinra headquarters are two of the most significant examples of Cloud showing his concern for someone else, it doesn't surprise me in the least that SE would have Barret come to this conclusion through Cloud's unique protectiveness towards Aerith.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Neither of those quotes are specifically about romantic love, just love in general.

And could we please have evidence that is not about things that happened on Disk 1?
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Neither of those quotes are specifically about romantic love, just love in general.
But Cloud states his romantic feelings for Aerith to Marlene. SE also states Cloud "wavers" between two heroines, which means Cloud has more than just platonic feelings for Aerith.

So although the quotes don't specifically talk about romantic love, we know SE wanted to express, through the death of Aerith, the feelings associated with losing someone you love. And this loss is primarily seen through the eyes of a man who had romantic feelings for Aerith.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me -- Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, which is why her death impacted him the most. It was also a way to make Aerith's death more heartbreaking -- they didn't just kill off Cloud's friend, they killed off a person he was romantically involved with, which adds another dimension to the loss.

And could we please have evidence that is not about things that happened on Disk 1?
Why...?
 

OniRaitei

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I think you're trolling at this point. I can no longer take your posts seriously. I am amazed at how, when presented with irrefutable evidence that you are wrong, you pick one weak, ludicrous, incorrect detail and then twist it and make it your new point of contention in order to cling to a battle you have already lost.

And could we please have evidence that is not about things that happened on Disk 1?

BlankBeat likes to focus on disc 1 because of a misguided belief that if he can get people to agree that Cloud loved Aerith on disc 1, it will cancel out everything that happened on disc 2 and 3, On the Way to a Smile, and ACC.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Hawk,

I will happily respond to your quotes, and I'll do so without getting belligerent or personal. BTW, I genuinely wanted to know the full context of your quotes.

Oh, and I spent a great deal of time crafting this response because I do think we can find common ground. But I thoroughly expect the personal attacks to continue and for my motives to be questioned. However, before I respond to your quotes, I would like to present my overall argument in (perhaps) a more articulate fashion.

Is my main goal to show that Cloud didn't care for anyone else? No.

Then why do you discard almost every moment Cloud showed concern for Tifa and turn the remainder (the Wall Market scenario) into actually only being concern for Aerith? You don't even allow anyone else to care about Aerith -- they just go rescue her because Cloud loves her and he's the main character and they aren't proper characters in their own right.

BlankBeat said:
To me, it shouldn't be hard to see how Cloud and Aerith fit the classic description of a tragic love story. In fact, it's obvious from the get-go that this was SE's intention.

You're meant to see elements of that, yes, but taking that as the entire story discards all the revelations about Cloud that follow. The development team built up a lot of expectations that they later turned on their asses -- Sephiroth being the same kind of special snowflake as Aerith, Cloud's status as a cocky and cold badass, Cait Sith's prediction, Tifa having always crushed on Cloud since they were kids while he was oblivious, Cloud wanting to join SOLDIER for glory, the apparent tragic love story. All of these things played on tropes and plot decoys to build expectations that were deliberately misleading.

FFVII included or considered every common manga ploy down to Sephiroth and Aerith either being siblings or former lovers. They were trying to fuck with us and they did a marvelous job at it.

Sephiroth wasn't an Ancient. Cloud was actually an extremely soft-hearted fellow with a massive inferiority complex. Cait Sith's prediction was a cruel inaccuracy. Cloud had actually been the one with the crush on Tifa originally. He wanted to join SOLDIER to impress a girl. The real tragic love story was that Aerith was chasing a ghost until she realized what she was doing, then never got the chance to really know Cloud before she was murdered.

You want to talk about literary intent? Fine, let's do that. Why even reveal near the game's end -- in its greatest moment of revelation, mind you -- that Cloud ever had romantic feelings for Tifa if the intention was simply that there is a tragic love story at work with Cloud and Aerith? Why do that if it's only about them? Why even have the Zack angle? What is the literary intent there? What is being revealed about the real love story with an unresolved romance and a throwaway crush that never had any relevance before this point in the story and wasn't needed to explain any of it?

It wasn't necessary to explain Cloud joining SOLDIER. The game had already shown us that he aspired to be like Sephiroth, just as many other young men his age were. We didn't need Luke Skywalker to have a crush on some girl to understand why he wanted to go off and fight the Empire. We just knew he was a young man who aspired to be like legendary heroes who had made a difference before him.

Like Sephiroth being an Ancient or Tifa having a crush on Cloud since childhood that he didn't know or care about, the tragic love story of Cloud and Aerith was largely a decoy.

It is a testament to how well-written that decoy is that you mistook it for the actual story, but it is still a decoy. The game is remarkably well-written for being in development even as it was written. You still have people playing this game and walking away not understanding what a Sephiroth clone is or believing that Cloud was created by Hojo -- because those people mistook the decoy for the actual story, just like you.

They stopped paying attention to what was happening in the story at a certain point and accepted that what they had been shown up to that point was the story. You did the same.

You're arguing conclusions for the entire story based on only half of it, and when half of that half was designed to deliberately mislead you.

BlankBeat said:
I agree with this quote. Cloud agrees to disguise himself as a woman to help Tifa because he didn't want Aerith to help her alone.

It doesn't fucking say that. It says he does it to help Tifa. End of. Aerith is said to provide the suggestion, not be the cause.

BlankBeat said:
The only reason I'm being such a stickler about this is because I don't believe Cloud rescuing Tifa discredits Barret's observation that Aerith, in particular, seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for.

Yet Barret makes no such observation. He observes that even Cloud will risk himself for other people in the midst of him making an effort to save someone else shortly after he also risked his life to help Barret and the people of Sector 7.

Stop saying Barret said this "first person Cloud is willing to fight for" bullshit. He didn't. It's not the in script and you cannot quote it. It doesn't exist.

BlankBeat said:
In fact, I provided this as further evidence that Cloud put's Aerith's safety as his primary concern:
Tifa: "Corneo is looking for a bride."
"Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then....
...and, well....."
"Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight."

(Aerith turns.)

Aerith: "Sorry... but I overheard..."
"If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?"

Tifa: "I guess so, but..."

Aerith: "We have two here, right?"

Cloud: "No, Aerith! I can't have you get involved."

Aerith: "Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?"

Cloud: "No, I don't want Tifa in...."

During this scene, Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's. In fact, Cloud isn't concerned about Tifa's safety until Aerith points out his double standard.

Where do you see that? When Aerith inserts herself into the situation and Cloud tells her no? Right before he also says he doesn't want Tifa involved either?

How do you constantly overlook what's going on in these scenes while quoting them? There's no double-standard. He responds to Aerith about her involvement at the exact moment Aerith is trying to become involved. When she then questions Tifa's involvement, Cloud says he doesn't want her in the mess either, then gets ignored by both women.

The only double-standards around here are your own. Cloud says he doesn't want to try to go save Aerith at the City of the Ancients? It's because he's afraid of hurting her again (exactly what he says). He doesn't want to risk causing a ruckus while breaking into Corneo's place to rescue Tifa? Well, clearly that's not because he's afraid of Tifa getting hurt while he causes said ruckus.

No, that must have something to do with Aerith too. The chick he could have told to wait in a safe location while he created the ruckus or could have hogtied and carried home if she refused.

Oh, and let's not forget how a line like "Well, if it's to save Tifa... I guess there's no way around" couldn't possibly reflect on Cloud's actual feelings at that time because it occurs during an optional event -- even though one of the game's biggest info dumps (Gast's tapes at Icicle Inn) is optional. That's still canon for some reason, but not Cloud caring about Tifa's well-being. Nope. He just doesn't give a shit about her unless the player has him get in a hot tub full of naked men.

Great fucking story you've got there, BlankBeat.

You say you're not trying to paint a story in which Cloud only cares about Aerith or in which he's the only one who cares about her, but that's exactly what you do at every turn. And you should know: your story fucking sucks.

BlankBeat said:
This quote simply states the facts: Cloud dresses up as a woman and infiltrates Corneo's mansion. It doesn't tell us *WHY* Cloud did what he did.

I didn't say it did. I was giving it to you because you were asking for every goddamn thing under the sun except the line that told you that you were wrong.

BlankBeat said:
Then, when Tifa presents her plan to be one of Don's brides, Cloud has no reaction.

Ya do know Aerith spoke up first there, right?

BlankBeat said:
Then, once the plate falls and crushes Sector 7, Barret and Tifa begin mourning their losses, ranting and raving about Shinra, and discussing the whereabouts of Marlene. But Cloud is distracted. He's not partaking in their conversation and his mind seems to be elsewhere. Then, when Cloud abruptly leaves, Barret asks Tifa where she thinks he went. Tifa says, "Oh! Aerith!".

Cloud's mind was not focused on Shinra, the people that died in Sector 7, or Marlene. After Sector 7 was destroyed, Cloud was solely focused on rescuing Aerith.

After he made a pitstop first to find out how it all may be related to Sephiroth, you mean.

Not saying he didn't care for Aerith. Don't even try to say I'm saying it. But you're claiming that he was "solely focused on rescusing Aerith" when Cloud himself said he wanted to find out more about this Ancient shenanigans first, went to Aerith's house to ask about said Ancient shenanigans, and only then went to the Shin-Ra building.

BlankBeat said:
PS: I will eventually get around to the quote about Cloud staying because of his promise to Tifa. But just because I'm curious: what book is that scan coming from? And is there any other contextual information that may be relevant?

I'm not a fucking moron, BlankBeat. I see you trying to call my honesty into question again. I don't rip things out of context like you do with Wall Market and Barret's observation about Cloud fighting for others. That's the entire sidebar as related to the promise, and it's from the Ultimania Omega.

Which you should already know since I've mentioned that passage to you before.

Do you feel proud of yourself casting away integrity for the sake of a fictional pairing? Does this somehow validate you? Is your dignity intact because none of us know your real name while you hide behind an online moniker when guys like myself and Ryu openly use our real names?

I like to think that you still knowing who you are and what you're doing is enough to make you feel ashamed on some level.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Oh I found a good quote here in the Ultmiania, here you go:

"Blankbeat is wrong."
- Nomura, page 85

can we move on now? :awesome:
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
All the thanks for Tres and Q. Classy burns all around. Also, I may regret it but... Blank, do yourself a favor? Read your own posts, as if they were being said to you by another person... and see if you can grasp why they offend, anger, and sadden the people you direct them at. It just might help you out a bit. On the civility end of things, that is. There is no help for you, shipping wise, until you take off the goggles.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
「いや、違うな。間違っているぞ、ブランクビート。エアリスを殺したのは… この私だ!!」 -野村哲也
[No, that's not right. You're wrong, Blankbeat. The one who killed Aerith... is me!! -- Tetsuya Nomura]

it has to be true, it's all moonrunes and stuff

(if anyone gets where that is from i will give you nothing because you're all internet people to me)
 

Aerobalance

yukkuri shitete ne~
AKA
Rye
「いや、違うな。間違っているぞ、ブランクビート。エアリスを殺したのは… この私だ!!」 -野村哲也
[No, that's not right. You're wrong, Blankbeat. The one who killed Aerith... is me!! -- Tetsuya Nomura]

it has to be true, it's all moonrunes and stuff

(if anyone gets where that is from i will give you nothing because you're all internet people to me)


Fuck, I just tried cheat-- pasting the quote in Google-- but there's nothing. FUCK
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Go back to your OWN GAME and start feeling up Paz and Cecile.
maybe i will

D8d50Rm.jpg
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I realized my entire last post was unnecessary. This is all I really should have addressed:

To be honest, I'm just trying to show why Cloud's rescue of Tifa doesn't invalidate Barret's observation. In fact, Cloud's rescue of Tifa strengthens Barret's observation.

Know how I know this isn't true? Because that's not what you're doing. What you're doing is claiming that Aerith is the first person Cloud cared about and you're using Barret's observation as evidence for it. That is why you're so hellbent on Cloud trying to rescue Tifa at Corneo's not meaning he cared about her.

If all you wanted to do here was argue that Barret's observation is evidence of Cloud caring for Aerith (which no one here disagrees with in the first goddamn place), then you would just say that and leave it at that. It would be a reasonable enough claim.

Hell, even if you wanted to claim that this is the first time Barret realizes Cloud cares about other people, that would be reasonable enough.

He doesn't know Cloud stuck around for the second reactor bombing for Tifa. He doesn't know Cloud went to rescue her from Corneo's. He especially doesn't know that Cloud subjected himself to being dressed up as a girl for Tifa's sake.

He doesn't know a lot of things, because he wasn't there and no one has filled him in.

You could argue that Barret doesn't even realize Cloud trying to save him and Sector 7 at the pillar was out of the goodness of his heart. You could argue that he may have initially believed Tifa was paying him to do it.

But you don't. You just say Cloud was in it for money when it came to sticking around. You say he only wanted to help Tifa because Aerith did. You, oddly enough, don't try to explain why he bothers helping Barret and Sector 7, and just quickly skip on ahead to him trying to rescue Aerith from Shin-Ra headquarters.

And then you try to use Barret's observation as evidence that Cloud hasn't cared about anyone but Aerith up to this point.

You're dishonest. It's insulting to everyone here. You embarass me as a fan of this game, and you embarass yourself.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Hawkeye said:
You, oddly enough, don't try to explain why he bothers helping Barret and Sector 7, and just quickly skip on ahead to him trying to rescue Aerith from Shin-Ra headquarters.
If you want me to admit that Cloud showed care for others during disc 1, I will do so. Cloud showed care for other people besides Aerith during disc 1. But was it to the same level as his care for Aerith? Absolutely not.

My main goal is to show that from the very moment Cloud fell in Aerith's Church, she is the one person Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud. I believe this was done to make Aerith's death that much more heartbreaking and to show us that Cloud felt a little something special for Aerith (ie: romantic feelings).

EDIT: If Barret witnessed Cloud fighting for those in Sector 7, why does he still make his observation?

Hawkeye said:
Yet Barret makes no such observation. He observes that even Cloud will risk himself for other people in the midst of him making an effort to save someone else shortly after he also risked his life to help Barret and the people of Sector 7.

Stop saying Barret said this "first person Cloud is willing to fight for" bullshit. He didn't. It's not the in script and you cannot quote it. It doesn't exist.

Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have known that was impossible though…
Barret: Heh, heh, heh.
Cloud: What is it? You're givin' me the willies.
Barret: So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.
Cloud: Who cares if you're impressed…?


Cloud mentions not wanting to start a ruckus until saving Aerith, to which Barret responds, "So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed."

Barret's statement was in direct response to Cloud's statement about saving Aerith. So when I say Barret observes that Aerith is the first person Cloud is willing to fight for, I'm 100% accureate in my description of his statement.

Didn't Stranglove verify my interpretation with this piece of information?

「あんたでも他人のために使うことがあるんだな。見直したぜ」
――クラウドがエアリスを気づかうのを見て

解説
クラウドに反感を抱いていたバレットが、はじめて彼を見直す場面。以後、バレットのクラウドへの態度は軟化していく。

"Even you will fight for other people sometimes. I am impressed."
-- On seeing that Cloud is concerned about Aerith

Explanation:
Barret, who had been antagonistic towards Cloud, changes his view of him for the first time in this scene. After this, Barret's attitude towards Cloud softens.


Barret makes his observation in direct reference to Aerith. So...why do you have a problem with my description of his observation?

Hawkeye said:
It doesn't fucking say that. It says he does it to help Tifa. End of. Aerith is said to provide the suggestion, not be the cause.
You continually accuse me of downplaying Cloud and Tifa's bond. Yet, here you are downplaying Aerith's role in Cloud's decision to enter Don Corneo's mansion. I don't need a quote to tell me that Aerith's safety was a concern of Cloud's because I have the script:

Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look."
"I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"

…

Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"


For the fifth time: I don't disagree that Cloud agreed to help Tifa; but it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially caused him to agree to help Tifa. Look at the script.

Hawkeye said:
You want to talk about literary intent? Fine, let's do that. Why even reveal near the game's end -- in its greatest moment of revelation, mind you -- that Cloud ever had romantic feelings for Tifa if the intention was simply that there is a tragic love story at work with Cloud and Aerith? Why do that if it's only about them? Why even have the Zack angle? What is the literary intent there? What is being revealed about the real love story with an unresolved romance and a throwaway crush that never had any relevance before this point in the story and wasn't needed to explain any of it?
Because it's a love triangle? Love is a complicated topic, and sometimes falling in love with two people makes love that much more complex. But as I've stated over and over, I don't deny that Cloud loved Tifa. But do I believe they are in an established romantic relationship? Absolutely not.

"And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.” ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

To believe that Cloud has to end up with one of his romantic love interests is a false choice. The answer can be that Cloud didn't end up with either Aerith or Tifa. Aerith, because she's dead; Tifa, because her and Cloud aren't compatible. Until we see unequivocal romantic evidence of Cloud and Tifa being in a relationship after the HAHW scene, there is nothing that makes them an official romantic couple.

Hawkeye said:
It is a testament to how well-written that decoy is that you mistook it for the actual story, but it is still a decoy. The game is remarkably well-written for being in development even as it was written. You still have people playing this game and walking away not understanding what a Sephiroth clone is or believing that Cloud was created by Hojo -- because those people mistook the decoy for the actual story, just like you.
So Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship was a decoy, even though Cloud expresses a desire to meet her in the Promised Land, harbors extreme guilt for letting her die, and expresses a desire to continue connecting with her spiritually? If Cloud and Aerith's relationship was just a decoy, why does Tifa show jealously about it even in AC, after Aerith has died? Obviously Tifa sees the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith had, and she also sees that Cloud hasn't completely gotten over it.

Hawkeye said:
Where do you see that? When Aerith inserts herself into the situation and Cloud tells her no? Right before he also says he doesn't want Tifa involved either?
When Aerith inserts herself in Tifa's plan, Cloud doesn't go, "I don't want *EITHER* of you to go!" -- he specifically focuses on trying to convince *Aerith* not to go. Only until Aerith points out Cloud's double standard, does Cloud express concern for Tifa's safety. This suggests Cloud is more worried about Aerith than Tifa.

Would Cloud have expressed concern for Tifa's safety if Aerith hadn't pointed out Cloud's double standard? We'll never know. But what we know is that Cloud expressed concern for Aerith's safety from his own instincts, but only expressed concern for Tifa's safety when Aerith called him out on his double standard. That's the difference.

Hawkeye said:
I didn't say it did. I was giving it to you because you were asking for every goddamn thing under the sun except the line that told you that you were wrong.
Then why did you include it in your initial post as evidence? You provided this as evidence before I asked for the context of the quotes. So, if you agree it doesn't show *WHY* Cloud went in Don's mansion, what was the point of including it in your initial post?

Hawkeye said:
Ya do know Aerith spoke up first there, right?
So what? Cloud could have interrupted Aerith. Or, when Aerith expressed a desire to go along with Tifa's plan, Cloud could have told BOTH of them at once not to go. Only until Aerith pointed out Cloud's double standard did he express concern for Tifa's safety. This is yet another example of putting Aerith's safety above others, and I think that was SE's intent by making Aerith point out Cloud's double standard.
 
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Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
Im so tired of that retarded wavers quote that really doesnt mean much to either camp.

I want Aaron to write up a DB query that can count how many times "Waver(s)" has been used in this thread ._.
 

Akai Hana

Unknown Creature
AKA
Akai Hana, Komori Yui
BB, seriously I never know Tifa is jealous of Aerith in AC. If you can give me quote of ultimania or script, I'll be grateful enough.
 
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