Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Can't believe I'm doing this, but anyway...
Tifa -- Cloud reiterates the promise to come rescue her that he made as a kid
Barret -- Cloud tells him to be careful when he goes to confront Dyne
Red XIII -- goes with him to the Cave of the Gi
Cait Sith -- grieves over him when he dies even if he's a robot
Yuffie -- saves her from Corneo
Vincent -- tells him what happened with Sephiroth and lets him come with them
Cid -- listens to his story
Aerith -- protects her along with everyone else
Cloud showing concern and wanting to protect people is just the way he is.
From what I have seen, this is why most of us are frustrated with your arguments. You aren't using quotes and game scripts that come from when Cloud was really himself, namely, Disk 2 and 3 and ACC, BC, CC, and DoC and the part of the Ultimanias that are about what Cloud feels after he has become himself again.
At some point on Disk 1, Cloud shows concern for everybody in the party.Hawk,
I will happily respond to your quotes, and I'll do so without getting belligerent or personal. BTW, I genuinely wanted to know the full context of your quotes.
Oh, and I spent a great deal of time crafting this response because I do think we can find common ground. But I thoroughly expect the personal attacks to continue and for my motives to be questioned. However, before I respond to your quotes, I would like to present my overall argument in (perhaps) a more articulate fashion.
Is my main goal to show that Cloud didn't care for anyone else? No. My main goal is to show that from the very moment Cloud fell in Aerith's Church, she is the one person Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud, which is why I believe Barret's observation is just as much about his character development as it is about highlighting Cloud's romantic bond with Aerith.
Tifa -- Cloud reiterates the promise to come rescue her that he made as a kid
Barret -- Cloud tells him to be careful when he goes to confront Dyne
Red XIII -- goes with him to the Cave of the Gi
Cait Sith -- grieves over him when he dies even if he's a robot
Yuffie -- saves her from Corneo
Vincent -- tells him what happened with Sephiroth and lets him come with them
Cid -- listens to his story
Aerith -- protects her along with everyone else
Cloud showing concern and wanting to protect people is just the way he is.
Everyone's safety means a lot to Cloud. He's been trying to protect people ever since he was a kid and followed Tifa up Mt. Nibel.As gamers, we were meant to witness Cloud's unique and unexpected care for Aerith so that when Sephiroth murdered her, it was that much more heartbreaking. Sephiroth didn't just murder any character, he murdered the character Cloud showed the most care and concern for. He killed off the character that had a romantic future with Cloud, a future that according to SE would have resulted in a marriage. It's no secret that SE tried to make Cloud and Aerith's relationship special so that when she died, it was that much more painful to us. And how did SE show that Cloud and Aerith's relationship was something special? By showing us time and time again that Aerith's safety meant so much to Cloud:
The Turks are an organization you would want to protect anyone from because they report directly to Shin-Ra. As it is, the degree that Cloud protects Aerith from the Turks is left up to the player.1. Cloud agreed to protect Aerith from the Turks.
Cloud leaves Aerith behind because he said he would escort her home, which he did, and is now returning to AVALANCHE.2. Cloud tried to leave Aerith at home so she wouldn't face danger in the slums.
If it was up to Cloud, Aerith wouldn't even have been there. And it's in the script that going after Tifa is Cloud's idea first.3. Cloud tried to prevent Aerith from going after Tifa's cart.
Cloud was going to go into Corneo's mansion with or without Aerith. It was just more convent to go along with her.4. Cloud agreed to go in Corneo's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.
Okay, you are a hardened warrior who could probably take out everyone in the mansion if you wanted to. You also have a high sense of honor that goes along with your desire to protect people. Exactly why would you want to bring in a non-combatant (or so you think) with you to storm a playboy mansion?5. Cloud didn't want Aerith to partake in Tifa's plan to trap Don Corneo.
From the evil organization who hires creepy mad scientists... this is more of a "decent human being" test then a "do you like this person the most" test. Besides, Tifa is the one to suggest they (AVALANCHE) go rescue her.6. Cloud's top concern after the plate fell was to rescue Aerith.
You are aware that FFVII takes a number of classic tropes and inverts them, right?Aerith is, by far and away, the character Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no other character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud during disc 1. So if you look at it from that standpoint, it makes complete and total sense why SE included Barret's observation. By showing us time and time again that Aerith's safety meant so much to Cloud, it made Aerith's death that much more heartbreaking. To me, it shouldn't be hard to see how Cloud and Aerith fit the classic description of a tragic love story. In fact, it's obvious from the get-go that this was SE's intention.
See above. It's Cloud's idea to go after Tifa, Aerith taggs along with him.I agree with this quote. Cloud agrees to disguise himself as a woman to help Tifa because he didn't want Aerith to help her alone. I don't disagree that Cloud agreed to help Tifa; but it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially caused him to agree to help Tifa. Aerith's safety was Cloud's primary concern, rescuing Tifa was Cloud's secondary concern. To me, this makes the case for Barret's observation that much more compelling.
He said he would rescue Tifa all the way back in Nibelheim before he even went out for SOLDIER. If that's not wanting to fight for someone, I don't know what is.The only reason I'm being such a stickler about this is because I don't believe Cloud rescuing Tifa discredits Barret's observation that Aerith, in particular, seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for.
Might have to do with the fact that Cloud knows Tifa is capable of defending herself, and he isn't aware Aerith is able to do that. Also, Tifa is meant to come across as the tough-as-nails bar girl, while Aerith is meant to come across as an innocent girl who doesn't know what she's getting into. However, the opposite is closer to the truth.In fact, I provided this as further evidence that Cloud put's Aerith's safety as his primary concern:
Tifa: "Corneo is looking for a bride."
"Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then....
...and, well....."
"Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight."
(Aerith turns.)
Aerith: "Sorry... but I overheard..."
"If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?"
Tifa: "I guess so, but..."
Aerith: "We have two here, right?"
Cloud: "No, Aerith! I can't have you get involved."
Aerith: "Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?"
Cloud: "No, I don't want Tifa in...."
During this scene, Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's. In fact, Cloud isn't concerned about Tifa's safety until Aerith points out his double standard. Cloud's double standard suggests that without Aerith's safety being at risk, Cloud may not have been prompted to rescue Tifa in the first place. This entire situation strengthens, not weakens, Barret's observation.
See above. Cloud decides to rescue Tifa first, so that's a given. Including Aerith only complicates things more.This quote simply states the facts: Cloud dresses up as a woman and infiltrates Corneo's mansion. It doesn't tell us *WHY* Cloud did what he did. Do you know what tells us *WHY* Cloud did what he did? The script:
Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look."
"I'll tell Tifa about you."
Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"
…
Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"
I don't disagree that Cloud wanted to rescue Tifa. But Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety cannot be ignored, diminished, or overlooked. It was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that compelled him to follow through and rescue Tifa.
Then, when Tifa presents her plan to be one of Don's brides, Cloud has no reaction. It is only until Aerith wants to partake in Tifa's plan does Cloud react. In fact, Aerith calls Cloud out for this obvious double standard. And although Cloud tries to backtrack, it's obvious what just happened: Cloud showed more protectiveness towards Aerith's safety than Tifa's.
Maybe because that was who Tifa left Marlene with?Then, once the plate falls and crushes Sector 7, Barret and Tifa begin mourning their losses, ranting and raving about Shinra, and discussing the whereabouts of Marlene. But Cloud is distracted. He's not partaking in their conversation and his mind seems to be elsewhere. Then, when Cloud abruptly leaves, Barret asks Tifa where she thinks he went. Tifa says, "Oh! Aerith!".
Erm... I'm pretty sure he was with all of AVALANCHE when those things happened...Cloud's mind was not focused on Shinra, the people that died in Sector 7, or Marlene. After Sector 7 was destroyed, Cloud was solely focused on rescuing Aerith. This continues the pattern that began when Cloud first agreed to protect Aerith from the Turks, and continued throughout the game ("But I'm--we're here for you"; burying Aerith in the lake by himself, deciding that he would meet Aerith in the Promised Land alone; etc.)
The entire theme of Disk 1 is showing that Cloud, as he is presented in Disk 1 is not himself, or rather, there is a little bit of himself, but most of it is something else, namely the memories of his best friend. So, if Cloud has a special bond with Aerith, it's not the real Cloud who does, but his fake persona. In order to prove that Aerith "is the one person Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for. There is no character that evoked such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud," is what is really going on, you have to be able to do it from places other then Disk 1; you have to prove it with the real Cloud without any fake memories.Aerith is, by far and away, the character Cloud consistently and frequently showed concern for during disc 1. There is no other character that evokes such consistent concern and protectiveness from Cloud. SE intentionally showed us Cloud's unique concern and care for Aerith so that when she died, it was that much more heartbreaking. So despite the controversy regarding this quote, they truly are a love that could never be.
From what I have seen, this is why most of us are frustrated with your arguments. You aren't using quotes and game scripts that come from when Cloud was really himself, namely, Disk 2 and 3 and ACC, BC, CC, and DoC and the part of the Ultimanias that are about what Cloud feels after he has become himself again.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it...PS: I will eventually get around to the quote about Cloud staying because of his promise to Tifa. But jst because I'm curious: what book is that scan coming from? And is there any other contextual information that may be relevant?