The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Goodbye Charlie]

Then we have a disagreement. I believe that Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death stemmed in part from his romantic feelings for her. By SE saying Cait Sith's wedding prediction becomes more painful after her death, it let's me know that Sephiroth prevented a mutual romance between Cloud and Aerith from turning into a marriage.

The disagreement stems from I'm right and you're wrong because once again you have no sequential sense if we take your logic and place it into the wider whole. So lets assume that Cloud is in pain because he'd been cast a potential future with Aeris, as a marriage, so we assume he is at this point romantically bonded to the notion of him and Aeris.

Aeris dies, he's upset, he breaksdown when he realises he's been a puppet to the man who killed him, Tifa rescues him and his memories from the lifestream and as soon as he's back to being Cloud finally, restored with memories, he sleeps with Tifa. Now that COULD be sequentially fine, man once restored is not the man he thought he was when he was in love with Aeris, but how does that make your pairing one you want to embrace? It either demeans EVERYTHING he had with Aeris as merely a confused event in his life, or paints him as a bit of a superficial berk.

As soon as you're "right" about CloudxAeris, you wreck Cloud for the rest of the complilation. I'm half tempted to say you're right and from hereon ensure everyone knows Cloud isn't a sensitive, honourable man, who was helped by a flower girl when he was lost to his pain, but just some self serving bastard or a guy who loved a girl for a phase, to the point he was keen to marry, but got over it real quick when he got "better".

Like those apples? I doubt it. This is why I'm right and you're wrong. You can cherry pick what you like, you can even take a valid stab at interpreting other media as "Clerith", but FF7 cannot be twisted to make CloudxAeris romantic without destroying Cloud or trying to defy every event clarified by narrative and authors. End of. I don't say this to piss on your party, nor do I say it because it makes me happy to ruin your pairing. It doesn't. I say it because your pairing doesn't make sense, and I hope valiantly you'll stop repeating the same thing over and over and THINK about that.

The choices are there because both Aerith and Tifa are alive, not because Cloud isn't his 'real' self.

Nope, it's because he's not himself the player is allowed is to subvert Cloud's character because he's not well, so technically ANY choice you make can be consistent. Have him go on a date with Barret, he's a mess, it works. It's smart game development.

Furthermore, some choices have official/canon outcomes.

Missing the point. Each event you choose still WORKS for Cloud. None of them defy the story or belittle it. The player cannot subvert the tale because Cloud is unstable that any of the comments can fit with that aspect of the game. Yes the LTD gameplay requires the characters to be alive, but Cloud is a guy fixated on Tifa prior to FF7 and after the Lifestream. To have him dilly dallying, flirting and being silly or off with people's feelings wouldn't work with the character at ANY other time in the game because, well, Cloud's a bit of a straight lace.

Huh? You made the point that the Cloud x Aerith date wasn't romantic. So if you want to go down that road, Cloud and Tifa's relationship isn't romantic in CoT or AC.

It isn't. Seriously. Look at the date. Show me the romance. It's one sided awkwardness. Look at Case of Tifa, its two people talking about their future together. Mutual. I'm not going to pull the quotes out for you dissect if you're that crazy, do it yourself. Case of Tifa is a classic story structure of a couple who start with rosy hopes for the future till the past starts to drive them apart. It's not special, its not unique, I don't actually think its well written, but its narrative is clear. Your "date"? That thing he was pressured to go on, is played for comedy. There's no romance in Tifa or Aeris' dates.

But seriously. Little Red Riding Hood goes to visit her grandmother - you the type to ask for proof she is her grandmother?

You didn't answer the question. What does Nomura mean when he says that the ending of KH might answer questions about Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII?

Good lord, how many questions of mine have you ignored? I don't play Kingdom Hearts, it's Disney with FF bits slipped in. I don't see KH1 or the Tifa focused KH2 as anything related to FF7. If you need a dual license fun game to explain to you another story, you need to look at your own inadequacies there. I get my data from the Compilation and from the comments made by the authors and designers of that Compilation. Normura and Nojima are pretty damn clear in the story structure to the Compilation, you want to try and defy that story logic because YOU want wuv between Aeris and Cloud, so you go to cling onto comments made by a non canon game, go ahead, knock yourself out. Same with KH2. It doesn't inform on FF7, it may mirror aspects of the dynamics, but it ain't canon. Move on.

You can come up with excuses all you want, but until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it only makes sense that Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room. Therefore, it is unlikely that Cloud and Tifa are living like a typical romantic couple.

Rubbish. Again you point to the trivial to defy the overall arc of story. It's insulting. Case of Tifa sets them up as a couple moving forward, putting the pain behind them, it then has their relationship disintergrate as Cloud falls apart, to the point they are living separate lives. That's the whole point of Case of Tifa if you've not read for anything but cherry picking. Advent Children picks that up, where they've living separately.

I don't recall seeing the bedroom for many canon couples, let alone any images of phallus' getting inserted into plum holes, does that mean they don't have sex if we don't see them in bed doing it? You'll ignore the entire point of the authors penmanships to prove your point, even Maiden has Aeris wishing Cloud and Tifa all the best as she angrily recounciles her issues with Zack, its a sad and hard moment where she lets go. Why can't you?

The family formed in Edge was not formed because of Cloud and Tifa's (possible) romantic relationship. It was formed with Barret and Marlene. Therefore, this "family" cannot be used as evidence to support Cloud and Tifa's (possible) romantic relationship.

Absurd. Whether kids, fostered, adopted, child-minded are present, doesn't change the relationship. Malene isn't theirs but as Case of Tifa points out, they're trusted, because the FF7 ARE family, they look out for each other still and remember those they all lost. Again, cherry picking. I'll end this AGAIN with the same point because you so neatly ignore it in every aspect of my points:

My version:

Aeris and Zack have a close relationship, Zack disappears, Aeris never knows why. She feels hurt and lost and angry. Cloud wants Tifa, but Tifa never notices him, he goes off to prove he is a man by joining the army. He works with Zack, they go back to his home town where he's ashamed he's not made the rank he wanted and hides from Tifa feeling shame for his failure to become Soldier. His town is destroyed by his boss, he escapes but Zack is killed protecting Cloud, Cloud breaks down, mentally taking on Zack's dream to become a mercenary. Meets Aeris and Tifa, he's now taken on Zack's position in history. He and Aeris become friends, Aeris makes him her bodyguard. She starts to inadvertently chip away at the faux personality, but not enough. Tifa is confused by Cloud's personality and story history. Aeris is killed by Sephiroth and Cloud starts to break down, feeling the guilt, anger and pain. He discovers he's in part being controlled by the enemy, breaks down again. Tifa revives him, he remembers his history, his desire for Tifa, his want to impress her. He becomes Cloud. Cloud and Tifa have an intimate moment having opened themselves up to each other just before the World is about to end. It doesn't. They carry on into a relationship. Aeris meets ZAck in the lifestream and starts to see the truth about all she went through, she slowly starts to see the things in Cloud she likes are there in Zack but at this point still can't admit to them. Geostigma hits, Cloud is infected, Cloud's guilt and pain that was unresolved for Aeris and Zack starts to dominate. He can't be around those he loves fearing as with Aeris and Zack, he'll fail to protect them, he goes away to die, going back and forth between Zack and Aeris' grave looking for forgiveness. Everyone forgives Cloud, he is cured, he says goodbye to his guilt, to Aeris and Zack and is able to smile and rejoin his family as a person once more.

Here's your version.
Aeris has a relationship with Zack. Zack disappears. Aeris gets over Zack as she tells Cloud, despite writting nearly 100 letters to him, she falls in love with Cloud, a man who left his hometown to prove his worth to Tifa as a man, Cloud falls in love with her, Tifa is jealous. Aeris dies, Cloud forever mourns, but has a sexual encounter with Tifa before moving in with her as a friend, despite knowing how much she cares for him. The enounter means nothing romantic. They live as a commune while he mourns Aeris. He finds himself, thanks to Aeris and Zack who wave goodbye to him together before leaving his life. He is happy now in his commune with the girl who loves him but he just likes, save knowing the love of his life is now hanging around her ex-boyfriend.

Seriously?
Which has narrative consistency as a story? Which is the richer story? Which story deals with all the characters evenly without over focusing on one pair?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The disagreement stems from I'm right and you're wrong because once again you have no sequential sense if we take your logic and place it into the wider whole. So lets assume that Cloud is in pain because he'd been cast a potential future with Aeris, as a marriage, so we assume he is at this point romantically bonded to the notion of him and Aeris.

Aeris dies, he's upset, he breaksdown when he realises he's been a puppet to the man who killed him, Tifa rescues him and his memories from the lifestream and as soon as he's back to being Cloud finally, restored with memories, he sleeps with Tifa. Now that COULD be sequentially fine, man once restored is not the man he thought he was when he was in love with Aeris, but how does that make your pairing one you want to embrace? It either demeans EVERYTHING he had with Aeris as merely a confused event in his life, or paints him as a bit of a superficial berk.

As soon as you're "right" about CloudxAeris, you wreck Cloud for the rest of the complilation. I'm half tempted to say you're right and from hereon ensure everyone knows Cloud isn't a sensitive, honourable man, who was helped by a flower girl when he was lost to his pain, but just some self serving bastard or a guy who loved a girl for a phase, to the point he was keen to marry, but got over it real quick when he got "better".

Like those apples? I doubt it."

Number 1: I'm a staunch Cloti, mostly because she's alive and Aerith is dead and Cloud seems to be living quite happily with her by the end of the Compilation. That doesn't mean I don't think he ever loved Aerith. But she's dead.

Number 2:I have avoided the LTD like the plague because I think it's the fandom equivalent of a dog chasing its tail, but I can't let this go by. You obviously think your argument is watertight and irrefutable, on the grounds that the previous poster "wouldn't like" a Cloud who could be leaning towards a romantic attachment with one girl, maybe even thinking about a long-term relationship with her, and then, when that girl dies (DIES) eventually falls in love with another girl whom he had a crush on in childhood and who has remained devotedly by his side as an ally and friend, and who is instrumental in helping him recover his self. Are you SERIOUS? Are you saying that someone who does this is a bad person and can't be viewed as hero?

I don't care about your other arguments, I didn't read them and they are not relevant here. I know what I think about the LTD and no one will change my mind. I only want to pick you up on this one specific point, which you seem to think is such a clincher: that we cannot admire a Cloud who is in love with one girl and then, when she dies and all hope of any future life with her is lost, finds comfort and love with another (equally lovely) girl with whom he feels he can build a life. Therefore, Cloud can never have loved Aerith, because if he did love Aerith and then loved Tifa after Aerith died, that would make him a bit of a heel.

That seems to be your argument, and all I can say is that it is complete bullshit. The Cloud you describe would be nothing more than a cardboard cut-out action hero with a "one true love that lasts a lifetime" mentality. Being right about CloudxAerith does not 'wreck' Cloud for the rest of the Compilation. It only makes him more of a three dimensional person. My Cloud is a real, living, breathing, messy human being with a need to love and be loved, and who is more than capable of loving two people, or even more, at the same time.

I like my Cloud a lot more than I like yours. Yeah, a LOT more.

 

[Master Bates]

I like your Cloud, too, Lic.

It's BB's Cloud I'm not willing to buy. His Cloud is a pathetic piece of shit. And while I do not agree with Charlie's Cloud, I still find his Cloud better than BB's.

Heck, I don't even think BB totally buys his own version of Cloud anyway.

In summation, flesh > cardboard > shit

 

[Knuxson]

I think Cloud very well could or did love Aerith. The writers at least tried to portray her as the main love interest during disc 1, while putting Tifa more into the old friend category, even though she had feelings for Cloud. You can get around seeing a lot of it with the dialogue choices, but there are a few scenes, such as Cait Sith's compatibility test, that you can't avoid. I think it was the writers' intent that Cloud loved Aerith, or at least was strongly attracted to her (because I am not sure you can say they were hopelessly in love; it doesn't definitively show they were, but it definitely shows they cared about each other).

But, again, Cloud doesn't remember during disc 1 that he was in love with Tifa during his entire life before he was messed up by Hojo. This, coupled with the scenes in the lifestream, the highwind scene, and the compilation all show that, despite how much he cared about Aerith, the real Cloud didn't stop loving Tifa after he rediscovered himself. I don't think this cheapens what he and Aerith had, but his love for Tifa is a core aspect of who he is. It molded his childhood and teenage years (pining after her and attempting to join SOLIDIER because of her). Cloud obviously wanted to be with Tifa for YEARS, so it would be very strange if, when she finally reciprocated, he decided against it.

But Aerith was very important to him too, don't get me wrong. And I don't claim he stopped caring about her when he rediscovered himself. Despite how messed up he was during disc 1, the real Cloud was still in there. Aerith was kind of the shining light of the group and everyone was devastated when she died, especially Cloud. Was he DEEPLY in love with her? Eh, I don't think so. But he most likely was at least in the early stages of attraction/puppy love, which only heightened how much he cared about her (and how devastating her death was). There was a lot of potential there, but Aerith was taken away before it could really develop into something akin to real, deep, love.

My point in all this is to say that I think he did love both women, but to different degrees. One woman, he loved his entire life and desperately desired to be good enough for her, except for a short period when his memory was incomplete. The other, he only knew during the period he couldn't remember how he felt about the first woman. However, he did have a strong bond with her and they got along extremely well and had a kind of fun, flirty, dynamic. But the first woman is the one he expresses deep "tender feelings" for and the one that becomes his companion for the rest of his life.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Thanks, Knuxson. Everything you said is what I think. And you said it really beautifully.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Number 1: I'm a staunch Cloti, mostly because she's alive and Aerith is dead and Cloud seems to be living quite happily with her by the end of the Compilation. That doesn't mean I don't think he ever loved Aerith. But she's dead.

You disagree, that's fine, whether you're a staunch whatever doesn't really matter. You don't need to justify your standpoint to validate it, your opinions do that far better than a label.

Number 2:I have avoided the LTD like the plague because I think it's the fandom equivalent of a dog chasing its tail, but I can't let this go by. You obviously think your argument is watertight and irrefutable, on the grounds that the previous poster "wouldn't like" a Cloud who could be leaning towards a romantic attachment with one girl, maybe even thinking about a long-term relationship with her, and then, when that girl dies (DIES) eventually falls in love with another girl whom he had a crush on in childhood and who has remained devotedly by his side as an ally and friend, and who is instrumental in helping him recover his self. Are you SERIOUS? Are you saying that someone who does this is a bad person and can't be viewed as hero?

I don't mind you disagreeing, I'm all for it, I don't like this angry finger pointing style. I think my argument that there is no romance evidenced in disk one is pretty water tight as far as continuity goes. If you've read my other posts, which you'll have missed as they're every 10 pages, you'll know I'm readily believe that Aeris x Cloud is a happy dynamic. I believe that Cloud was attracted to her. She was attracted to Cloud.

What I don't think there is any evidence of, and what the other poster is constantly putting forward, is there is evidence of mutual romantic notions in disk one - and my point firstly Cloud isn't in a position to love anyone on disk one, as he is the middle of a mental breakdown. To love another truly, as the other poster was alluding, you have to love yourself first. He can't. He doesn't IMO love Tifa or Aeris on Disk One. He can't. I think as soon as you try and label Cloud with genuine passion for Aeris as a romantic prospect with the idea of future marriage and kids on disk one - you find that personality doesn't exist - in any form past disk one - as soon as his memory and personality returns, he's into Tifa. Aeris is a painful image of the failure he's constantly committing in his mind, a cherish friend who looked after him, look out for him and god dammit was probably pretty attractive to boot, who he failed to protect. As soon as you make him romantically into Aeris in the way suggested in the counter arguments here, his motivations post lifestream start to look either very shallow or utterly inconsistent.

Like I said, can someone really love someone, then after their tragic death, fall into sexual and romantic relations with not only his best friend, but the dead girl's best friend? Yes. Does it make them a sympathetic hero? No, not really.

So I submit that Cloud can't be romantically connected on disk one. In another universe, KH or whatever, yeah, their personalities work, but in FF7, there's simply no room for more than deep friendship and attraction - not mutual romance. We're meant to THINK its a possibility, but when the truth is revealed in the Lifestream, we know Cloud's only focus is Tifa.

I don't care about your other arguments, I didn't read them and they are not relevant here. I know what I think about the LTD and no one will change my mind.

You need to TELL me you don't read the rest of my points? - even though they're all interlinked. Sure, don't read em, your choice, to try and make it a point in a rebuttal to someone you've never spoken to is just rude.

I only want to pick you up on this one specific point, which you seem to think is such a clincher: that we cannot admire a Cloud who is in love with one girl and then, when she dies and all hope of any future life with her is lost, finds comfort and love with another (equally lovely) girl with whom he feels he can build a life. Therefore, Cloud can never have loved Aerith, because if he did love Aerith and then loved Tifa after Aerith died, that would make him a bit of a heel.

That seems to be your argument, and all I can say is that it is complete bullshit. The Cloud you describe would be nothing more than a cardboard cut-out action hero with a "one true love that lasts a lifetime" mentality. Being right about CloudxAerith does not 'wreck' Cloud for the rest of the Compilation. It only makes him more of a three dimensional person. My Cloud is a real, living, breathing, messy human being with a need to love and be loved, and who is more than capable of loving two people, or even more, at the same time.

So your Cloud is a guy a who loved Aeris romantically, wailed over her death for the loss of their future. Breaksdown, and then at the nearest moment, falls into the arms of their mutual best friend, and you think this is a valid interpretation because its okay for our heroes to be a bit of a dick?

Well sure, where's your issue? I said that's possible, where we disagree is I don't see:
a) the evidence he was romantically interested in Aeris. I see a special bond. I see a man who cares a lot for him. Romance, I don't see - I see Aeris', even though Maiden's retcon makes that questionable to how much she was inwardly seeking Zack through Cloud, but Cloud? I don't see it. That's my honest stumbling block.
b) I don't think the compilation is looking to make Cloud the heel/three dimensional character you suggest. All the pieces and strands I see is Cloud as a man who was fixated on proving himself to his childhood crush (not friend, barely friend), and then when he finally is forced to open up to her, he falls for her. He's a sympathetic, broken but actually pretty honourable character - its why Aeris and Zack's death hits him so greatly - he's an honourable man, not a heel.
c) We never get any scene which shows any of the characters allude to the weirdness of how Cloud jumps from Aeris to Tifa - even from Tifa. So there's nothing in FF7 or beyond that indicates any guilt on Tifa's part (that I can recall, correct me if I'm wrong), to suggest there was romantic notions.

So all in all, I GENUINELY can't see how you can reconcile that interpretation. From any angle other than personal preference. You can have your personal preference, I can see the attraction, especially if I personally enjoy the notion of Cloud and Aeris as a couple, as it gives you a little slice of both pie. What I don't agree is there's logically room for that interpretation as a rational, official source of data.

If I sound firm on this, I've been doing this debate in and out for a few years now. It is silly, but sometimes silly things are interesting because they matter so little. It's a game, it's a topic, there's not stress either way. But I won't be shouted at into changing my argument lol.

And do remember, this is an ongoing debate with a person who believes beyond anything that Cloud loves Aeris as fact and Tifa is a sidebar. That's who these arguments are working against, so they will seem heavy handed after 20 pages lol. I suspect you're jumping a little to conclusions as to my personality/agenda based on a couple of posts. This isn't an argument as to whether Cloud was flirtatious/attracted to Aeris, it's whether he was romantically invested in her to the same degree - or more - than Tifa.

 

[Knuxson]

@Licorice Thanks! I was reiterating a lot of what I said in a couple posts awhile back (page 394 of this thread) where I really attempted to explain what I think about the whole love triangle dynamic and the writers' intent for the narrative. I think I managed to make those posts in a period of calm in this thread before it erupted into what it is now.

I think all 3 of us think roughly the same thing: that Aerith and Cloud were attracted to each other, but his real love is Tifa. I think Licorice (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) took what you were saying to mean that Cloud didn't "love" Aerith. Which is what you were saying, but you were using love in the deep, romantic, sense, rather than the attraction/caring kind. I think we all agree he didn't love her to that degree. I also think we agree that he cared for her very much. On the whole whether Cloud would be heel thing, I think Goodbye Charlie was saying that if he was in a deep kind of love with Aerith, going to Tifa right after her death would seem kind of shallow. Of course, it would not be totally unbelievable or abhorrent, as it is only natural to seek comfort after one suffers a devastating loss. But, if Cloud only was in an early puppy love kind of stage, it definitely doesn't seem cheap at all for him to turn to Tifa, especially upon his realization of his feelings for her. Sorry for butting in, but it just seems to me that you may not disagree all that much.

 

[Shademp]

A few of us have the book. There's honestly nothing of interest that hasn't already been translated by myself, hito or Quexinos.

Even though the entries might not be interesting and the main FFVII writers have probably forgotten all about those diary entries, I would still like to see them linked to in our Novels & Novellas page. Either have the translated entries published here on TLS or have the content page link to an external site. Whichever you guys think works best.

 

[Farron]

The reason I know Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death is partly related to his romantic feelings for Aerith is because of this quote: “After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith’s replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith’s affinity. Cait Sith’s lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith’s wedding, now makes it more painful.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

Oh you didn't really show or say that. You just showed a animated gif of Cloud grieving over Aerith's dead body and said " If this doesn't prove that Clerith is canon I don't know what is " Which made it look like you believe that grieving equals true love. I'm glad that's not the case BB because to be honest that sort of concerned me.

It was like

The only way a wedding prediction would become "more painful" after Aerith's death is if there was mutual feelings between Cloud and Aerith. If Cloud did not have feelings for Aerith, it wouldn't make sense that this prediction would become "more painful" because there never would have been a possibility of marriage in the first place.

I don't why Cleriths really love and adore this whole prediction thing and use it as proofs for their ship because Cait Sith was really unreliable. In the Gold Saucer it took him about five tries to get a decent prediction. Plus he has a prediction about a wedding but also a prediction that Cloud's summer is going to be a awesome one, judging by what occurs through out Final Fantasy VII i don't think that Cloud had a awesome summer

Again disc 1 Cloud isn't that all together so it might of been extra painful during that certain moment but in the end that grief becomes guilt over failing to loose a close friend and not a close lover as Advent Children shows us. Plus your destiny and fate can be changed. Sephiroth murdering Aerith changed that fate, and Cloud falling into the Lifestream changed that fate as well. Plus disc 1 Cloud being not all together shows that imo Clerith wasn't meant to be and just a disc 1 thing only.

Also sorry for being late to this BB

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

I think all 3 of us think roughly the same thing: that Aerith and Cloud were attracted to each other, but his real love is Tifa. I think Licorice (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) took what you were saying to mean that Cloud didn't "love" Aerith. Which is what you were saying, but you were using love in the deep, romantic, sense, rather than the attraction/caring kind. I think we all agree he didn't love her to that degree. I also think we agree that he cared for her very much. On the whole whether Cloud would be heel thing, I think Goodbye Charlie was saying that if he was in a deep kind of love with Aerith, going to Tifa right after her death would seem kind of shallow. Of course, it would not be totally unbelievable or abhorrent, as it is only natural to seek comfort after one suffers a devastating loss. But, if Cloud only was in an early puppy love kind of stage, it definitely doesn't seem cheap at all for him to turn to Tifa, especially upon his realization of his feelings for her. Sorry for butting in, but it just seems to me that you may not disagree all that much.

Nah, I'm glad you did. That's the crux for me. That's the bitch with a thread that will advance 10 pages over night, while it becomes a tl;dr it some respects ideally you DO need to read it to capture the contexts of the arguments in their fluidity. I've said over and over, I can see pretty much anyone falling for Aeris, she was meant to be that sort of lady, a girl with charm and a certain fragility that encourages protection . I don't doubt in an idea world Cloud would fall for her if Tifa wasn't around. He's human, I can see him being attracted WITH Tifa being around. She's meant to be a charmer.

It's the notion that he was wanting or believing or even becoming her boyfriend that I contest, especially on the grounds if you put Cloud into that situation it causes a whole dearth of problems with the events that follow, all of which do nothing but demean the bond they have - and such a prospect, while one can interpret on its own, doesn't marry to the lack of introspective later on. If he bounced romantically from Aeris to Tifa, you'd expect that to be highlighted by... someone - Tifa especially given she was Aeris best friend too.

So yeah, I think we're on the same page to some degree. There's no character assassination of Aeris going on, nor do I think she wouldn't be a good match. Hell we don't always pick our best match, I think you could make a viable argument that she might be a better match than Tifa ideally. I don't know. But as the facts stand in FF7, yeah I've yet to see anything dovetail that suggests Cloud was romantically responding to her in anything more that affection, protection and maybe some natural attraction. Nothing which seemed to make his leap to Tifa seem unusual or morally dubious.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, yes and no. I'm not engaging in the argument about the extent to which Cloud did or did not love Aerith. What I very specifically wanted to counter was the argument that Cait Sith's marriage prediction could not be taken as a proof that Cloud loved Aerith, because if Cloud loved Aerith enough to marry her, but then after she died he moved on into a relationship with someone else, that "fickleness" would make him someone we could not like or admire.

There may be other good reasons why Caith Sith's prediction is a weak piece of evidence for Clerith. I think Dagger made a good point on that. But I have no interest in arguing the merits of the different pieces of evidence brought to bear on this debate. The whole LTD seems to me to be based on the false premise that a man cannot love two women (or vice versa, for that matter). There are millions of people around the world who have lost beloved lovers, fiancee and wives/husbands, and who have subsequently moved into new loving relationships (without ceasing to love and mourn the lost partner), who would agree with me that that premise is false.

But as far as what I think Cloud's actual feelings were for Aerith, I think they were a confused amalgam of loving her as a person, budding romantic feelings towards her, guilt for having beaten her up at the Temple of the Ancients, and the subliminal memories he absorbed from Zack. I don't think he was wildly and passionately in love with her. Actually I don't think it's his nature to be passionately in love with anyone.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Well, yes and no. I'm not engaging in the argument about the extent to which Cloud did or did not love Aerith. What I very specifically wanted to counter was the argument that Cait Sith's marriage prediction could not be taken as a proof that Cloud loved Aerith, because if Cloud loved Aerith enough to marry her, but then after she died he moved on into a relationship with someone else, that "fickleness" would make him someone we could not like or admire.

I see that logic, and I see the truth in it. The question is the same though as anyone who says I could see Cloud really wanting to marry Aeris or I can see Cloud really deep down knows he loves Tifa throughout disk one and only those interactions are canon - the question is: does the story as a whole support the idea? I don't disagree it makes for a more fallible hero, a questionable one - hell, a more interesting one, but is it actually there in the story?

There may be other good reasons why Caith Sith's prediction is a weak piece of evidence for Clerith. I think Dagger made a good point on that. But I have no interest in arguing the merits of the different pieces of evidence brought to bear on this debate. The whole LTD seems to me to be based on the false premise that a man cannot love two women (or vice versa, for that matter). There are millions of people around the world who have lost beloved lovers, fiancee and wives/husbands, and who have subsequently moved into new loving relationships (without ceasing to love and mourn the lost partner), who would agree with me that that premise is false.

Well that's where I disagree totally. The LTD is masqueraded as a "I can prove my love ship is more true!" or even as you say "A man can't possibly love two women, so which does he love?"

But I would say the true LTD is simpler and more academic: what is the true intention of the authors? What are they actually saying? We can take our personal preferences and enjoy them (I love V: The Mini Series, and I like to choose the following dire season didn't happen, but I know officially it did - well sort of, till he released that new book I guess), but what is academically as close as we can get?

I would still say in the context of FF7, there isn't enough to suggest during and after disk 1 that Cloud was mutually in love with both characters in a romantic sense. I think he loves Aeris, but I think he loves Zack. I don't think he was in a position mentally or historically given his motivations through life, to give himself to Aeris in a romantic sense, and I see no evidence during or after to suggest he did. That's my point. It's not preference, its establishing answers.

 

[Akai Hana]

I agree with Shademp. Dismantling really need to be put into Novella section in TLS.. We arent quite sure what was written in the book. Even though some said the canonity still ambiguous but we have to accept that the book is written by Digicube that was once a company established as a subsidiary of Square.

I'm not saying it canon. Hell no. Idk whether this can be consider true or not. Digicube before this had published a ffxii ultimania book but after DigiCube's bankruptcy, Square Enix has published the books directly.

But why didn't SE republish dismantled and why didn't SE listed Dismantled as part of their guide book if Dismantled was consider a canon?

Some said SE did republish dismantled but it was rewritten by bentstuff studio and thus FFVII ultimania was born.

This is only fan base opinion.

I hope whoever own this book either Ryu, Hito, Que or Tres would be kind to translate this artbook.

 

[Splintered]

I wouldn't mind considering Dismantled canon if it was published by Square, but as long as we recognize that over the past years, the story has changed and things have been retconned. I hate DoC but I recognize it as series canon, and how it interrupts parts of canon that have been in my head.

It happens in universes all the time. It sucks, but it will happen as universes expand. Some things turn irrelevant given new information. In the end, new information from ultimania and games must come before dated info dumps that in some ways contradicts what we know now.

 

[Octo]

@ Charlie/Licorice thing:

Looking at the complilation as a whole here. A version of Cloud who falls for Aerith, is distraught over her death, sleeps with his childhood friend and then continues to live with her and raise kids, all the while being emotionally distant knowing full well her feelings for him IS an asshole. The bolded part is where he crossed the line between flawed human being and asshole.

Blankbeats argument hinges on Cloud getting beyond 'vague crush' and actually being IN LOVE with Aeris. There is no evidence of that happening on disc one. Likewise, if Tifa had died instead of Aeris on disc one, we would be none the wiser about who he loves until later in the game. Jenova cells or not, nothing solidly romantic happens between either girl on the first disc. EDIT: 'romantic' is the wrong word here. There is nothing that proves love beyond attraction on the first disc.

It's not a judgement on polyamourous relationships/the ability of a person to love two people to say that jerking someones feelings around like that is cuntish and out of order.

 

[Strangelove]

Dismantled wasn't published by Square, though neither were other books like the Reunion Files or CC Complete Guide. Dismantled was published by ASCII (original edition) and Enterbrain (revised/International edition).

None of them are safe from being retconned by later releases, even the Ultimanias published by Square. The FFVII Ultimania Omega says that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers, or that Lucrecia disappearing is what caused Vincent to confront Hojo. In CC Aerith starts selling flowers after meeting Zack, and in DC Lucrecia is still around when Vincent confronts Hojo (nonchalantly walking into the room to see him on the ground shot).

 

[Shademp]

Dismantled wasn't published by Square, though neither were other books like the Reunion Files or CC Complete Guide. Dismantled was published by ASCII (original edition) and Enterbrain (revised/International edition).

Holy crap I never noticed this before. It's so easy to assume that Square was the publisher. The books must have been made in collaboration with Square, but they are indeed not the publishers.

None of them are safe from being retconned by later releases, even the Ultimanias published by Square. The FFVII Ultimania Omega says that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers, or that Lucrecia disappearing is what caused Vincent to confront Hojo. In CC Aerith starts selling flowers after meeting Zack, and in DC Lucrecia is still around when Vincent confronts Hojo (nonchalantly walking into the room to see him on the ground shot).

This is excellent material for a possible entry in our Canon of FFVII section.

 

[Akai Hana]

@hito really? I thought the first dismantled was published by digicube? Ultimanias were published by bentstuff right?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

@ Charlie/Licorice thing:

Looking at the complilation as a whole here. A version of Cloud who falls for Aerith, is distraught over her death, sleeps with his childhood friend and then continues to live with her and raise kids, all the while being emotionally distant knowing full well her feelings for him IS an asshole. The bolded part is where he crossed the line between flawed human being and asshole.

Blankbeats argument hinges on Cloud getting beyond 'vague crush' and actually being IN LOVE with Aeris. There is no evidence of that happening on disc one. Likewise, if Tifa had died instead of Aeris on disc one, we would be none the wiser about who he loves until later in the game. Jenova cells or not, nothing solidly romantic happens between either girl on the first disc. EDIT: 'romantic' is the wrong word here. There is nothing that proves love beyond attraction on the first disc.

It's not a judgement on polyamourous relationships/the ability of a person to love two people to say that jerking someones feelings around like that is cuntish and out of order.

Couldn't agree more. And it kinda feels as if that's what he's doing in ACC (I don't want to get into an argument over what his feelings actually are in ACC, I'm just saying that to some observers it could look like that).

All I'm saying is that moving on doesn't automatically make someone a man we can't like or admire, and thus is not per se a justification for dismissing Cait Sith's prediction as evidence of love for Aerith. This doesn't mean the prediction is good evidence, it only means that this particular argument is not a strong argument against it.

I feel as if I've stepped into a bottomless pit of quicksand.

 

[Strangelove]

Bentstuff aren't a publisher, but an editing/production company. Everything they've made has been published by other companies. I don't own the first edition myself, but Bentstuff's website lists the publisher/sales to ASCII and Aspect.

Ultimanias were originally published by Digicube, but after they went under Square Enix began publishing them on their own (having gained access to Enix's publishing department when they merged).

@Shademp: perhaps for any pages on this site detailing the books we could include translations/transcripts of the 'credits' pages (usually at the back, telling you who edited it and production support and stuff like that)?

 

[Shademp]

I feel as if I've stepped into a bottomless pit of quicksand.

Right now, every LTD veteran will represent Arnold Schwarzenegger in the following clip and you will be the woman.

@Shademp: perhaps for any pages on this site detailing the books we could include translations/transcripts of the 'credits' pages (usually at the back, telling you who edited it and production support and stuff like that)?

That's a great plan. This will fit the Franchise Guide section most properly, as I doubt most people will be excited to see credits translations in the Guide Book Translations section.

There are many who like to criticize these books for not being "written by the official FFVII writers", but I've already seen in one or two cases how primary contributors such as Tetsuya Nomura and Yoshinori Kitase are credited as being involved with the book(s). I think the critics are few enough though to warrant a credits section in the Franchise Guide instead of any other location on the website.

EDIT: Although now I find myself conflicted between placing credits translations in the Franchise Guide or in the Guide Book Translations... Hmm. =/

 

[Akai Hana]

@hito unfortunately either am I. I don't own any other ultimanias except ffvii omega and the 25th anniversary vol 2.. The front page cover of first edition of dismantled was blue right? I remember seeing it before. If you want the first edition I could ask my cousin if she could find that book at any local secondhand bookstore.

 

[Octo]

I feel as if I've stepped into a bottomless pit of quicksand.

WE ALL FLOAT DOWN HERE, AND WHEN YOU'RE DOWN HERE WITH US YOU'LL FLOAT TOO!

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

@ Charlie/Licorice thing:
Looking at the complilation as a whole here. A version of Cloud who falls for Aerith, is distraught over her death, sleeps with his childhood friend and then continues to live with her and raise kids, all the while being emotionally distant knowing full well her feelings for him IS an asshole. The bolded part is where he crossed the line between flawed human being and asshole.

Blankbeats argument hinges on Cloud getting beyond 'vague crush' and actually being IN LOVE with Aeris. There is no evidence of that happening on disc one. Likewise, if Tifa had died instead of Aeris on disc one, we would be none the wiser about who he loves until later in the game. Jenova cells or not, nothing solidly romantic happens between either girl on the first disc. EDIT: 'romantic' is the wrong word here. There is nothing that proves love beyond attraction on the first disc.

It's not a judgement on polyamourous relationships/the ability of a person to love two people to say that jerking someones feelings around like that is cuntish and out of order.

I agree. That's why I feel the actual damning issue for the whole CloudxAerith thing isn't quotes, isn't evidence from the creators... it's simple logic. Cause and effect. Disk one is a full of vagueness in part because its intentionally fluid for the player, but your answers come from what bookends that cloudy (pun) period, and that gives you the answer. There's too many narrative demands on Cloud having a romance with Aeris that are never recounciled or even considered in the rest of the game. Their absense makes other character's motivations questionable if you try to keep to that line of thinking. As soon as you get characters that don't seem fluid in their interaction you've either got an amateur story, or you're not reading motivations correctly.

It's a vital point because ultimately, stuff can be retconned, you'll even get writers who will reassess their viewpoint, even change it intentionally late. Sometimes to enlarge the story (we see that with the expansion of Zack's role, that while doesn't imo change FF7, it does suddenly at new light that I doubt was so heavily considered prior).

An interesting case is Donnie Darko, where the creator's opinion on what Donnie Darko is meant to be about actually changes between the original DVD and the special edition. On the original commentary he talks about messages from God, in the sequel commentary he says it was always about voices from the future; that Donnie is an allegory for the comic book superhero. A definitive change in opinion. His right, but the point is sometimes you are better to rely on what you see than even what you're told. At least, best to keep an opinion mind that statements after the event can be told differently. You take Ashes to Ashes, the BBC show, the writers both tell a slightly different voice as to what the whole thing means.

 

[Dashell]

I don't understand why I was the only one outraged by the "Cloud never shows concern for Tifa" thing...

I mean I usually don't get upset at all in this thread... and then I freak out and no one else does... what's with you people?