Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII Spoiler Thread

I don't think they were. The fal'cie were made just as much machine as they were beings. They weren't born from chaos and therefore didn't have souls or free will needed to be reborn. I'm not saying as someone who hates the fal'cie, I also think they were a fascinating part of the story that got shafted after the story no longer called for it. It's probably because when you think about it, they always got the shit end of the stick. Although they weren't completely sympathetic, they could be huge dicks, but that's okay because that grey area is interesting.

A lot of the ambiguity was not done well in the game though, like Alyssa. She had potentially the most compelling story in the game but instead she's just grinning like Snidely Whiplash, you don't even really get that she's dead from the game unless you really dig deep. Same with Orphan, it makes a better try but he's so obviously evil it's hard to bother thinking about him (he's also not as compelling as other villains).

Bhuni was okay, the creepy part about him is how much he really believed in his own cause and that he was doing right by everyone. But then stuff in the mythology pops up like Ereshkigal, which doesn't make a ton of sense because Bhuni was doing this for humanity, just in a completely self centered way. Replacing humanity was such a departure of his "look at how much I love u, I'm going to rob you of bad things like memories and past and we'll chill together so u can all worship me tehee" and now he wants to replace humanity?

But that wasn't the whole point of Bhuni, that wasn't the threat. The game's about what makes people, people- and keeping the integrity of humanity. I dunno.

Caius was really well done as an ambiguous villain though. Actually, thinking back on his story, Cid Raine's was actually really good, especially since he was killed by his own friend and the rebellion he wanted to lead but ended up being forced to betray, and how his turning into primarch- the position he wanted to destroy- ended up being the spark in the breakdown that he fought the party to prevent.

It's just that we didn't get enough time with Cid to really feel that. It's a shame because if they opened up the first game a bit, and allowed the rebellion to be a home base with Cid being more involved, that would end up much more powerful. It'd take a hell of a lot of rewriting but it would be worth it.

i took from the ending of lr that it was the souls that were taken to the new world, which were given to humans by etro. i thought that's what was supposed to be what made humans and fal'cie different

i really liked the set-up of having all these different fal'cie with different tasks around the world. like even door fal'cie. a fal'cie for everything. but then the sequels basically do away with most of them and the ones that do appear don't get much of a role. within the games post-original-game, only demi-fal'cie adam got the attention (if you count the novels then there's fal'cie cactuar too).



mog does appear in the new novel briefly which made me happy though (what is the deal with animals, do they have souls? and creatures from valhalla like eidolons)

It's told that everything comes from the chaos. In that, fal'Cie are from the chaos too.

Also, I think XIII was fine as a stand alone.

XIII-2 and LR were very disappointing in my opinion. (XIII-2 more so than LR, but LR wasn't great either.)

I always took it that most life was made from chaos, but not everything. Bhuni cannot control or understand chaos, and he made Pulse and Lindzei, who in turn made the fal'cie. Lindzei made humanity, but Etros took chaos and placed it into humanity from the invisible realm.

And that's what makes the real big difference. Chaos gives humanity free will, and a potential for power that the fal'cie, who are made with one goal in mind and given a finite amount of power to accomplish them. And without chaos, they cannot gain free will or souls. This is why humanity and the fal'cie/gods cannot understand each other, they were created fundamentally differently.

Cactuar buddy was the only fal'Cie that wasn't an asshole and he was sorta normal minus a crystal sticking outta it's head.

Apparently the actual number of fal'cie is incalculable or something. I've heard it argued that the fal'cie were suppose to resemble greek gods in personality, ones with personalities but extreme vices and flaws, but honestly, in function I thought they sounded like shinto or other multi-diety religions, where there's a god/spirit for multiple places and things.

There's a definite more western approach to fal'cie in Cocoon, where they are worshiped, relied on, manipulated, and have a hand in the politics. They also doubled as a political allegory imo. But in Pulse they acted more like forces of nature rather than gods in Cocoon, they didn't really give a shit about people and cared more about cultivating the land and more or less ignored civilization unless their focus required them to be in contact them or they were branding people.

did they worship anima in oerba? i can't remember now if that was mentioned in one of the side things (did fang and vanille go into a temple to get branded?), or even what anima's purpose was meant to be

I think anima was said to be the protector of oerba, but I don't know if they worshiped it. I'll have to read the first novels I guess. I think some of the fal'cies were patron fal'cies of cities, but I don't know. They didn't do the same thing that the Cocoon fal'cie did for them, ie, coddle civilization and create a huge dependency issue. But they also didn't actively murder them either, it just sounded like they just lived together.

goal to one day look through all reference material and make a list of every named or mentioned fal'cie

projected completion date: 2047

Splintered said:

I always took it that most life was made from chaos, but not everything. Bhuni cannot control or understand chaos, and he made Pulse and Lindzei, who in turn made the fal'cie. Lindzei made humanity, but Etros took chaos and placed it into humanity from the invisible realm.

And that's what makes the real big difference. Chaos gives humanity free will, and a potential for power that the fal'cie, who are made with one goal in mind and given a finite amount of power to accomplish them. And without chaos, they cannot gain free will or souls. This is why humanity and the fal'cie/gods cannot understand each other, they were created fundamentally differently.

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*mumble, mumble*

Then how did Etro have a soul? How did she, a fal'Cie without any power, get to the otherworld when she died?

Either there are major plot holes or ... I don't know.

While my wishing and hoping may be in vain, I still say that the fal'Cie could also be reborn (of course, in other forms.)

I've been rather curious about that as well. Mwynn passed into the Unseen Realm as well, though she was consumed by the chaos for whatever reason. She must have had some power over it that she passed to Etro, though? Or maybe Bhunivelze unknowingly creating Etro in Mwynn's image had something to do with her passing into the Unseen Realm upon death and then being able to influence the chaos?

Or! Perhaps the reason Mwynn lost control of and was consumed by the chaos in the first place -- and perhaps also the reason Bhunivelze accidentally created Etro in Mwynn's image -- is that Mwynn opened the Door to the Unseen Realm and leaked some chaos out into the Mortal World when Etro was created. Mwynn may have intended for Etro to interfere with Bhunivelze's plans. Of course, upon realizing his "mistake," Bhunivelze gave Etro no other powers, and if she had already received Mwynn's powers over the chaos, she wouldn't be able to use them until she got to the Unseen Realm anyway.

Opening that gate one too many times was what led to Etro losing control of things, so it may have been similar for Mwynn, explaining her second demise.

Anyway, if this is true, perhaps Etro did have a soul of her own, even if other fal'Cie and fal'Cie gods didn't. If Mwynn influenced her creation in her own image with the chaos, that may explain why the first human Etro herself gave a soul, Yeul, was fashioned in Etro's image.

Though I still find the whole mythology inconsistent and confusing. The Fragment from XIII-2 entitled "Bhunivelze's Sleep" tells us "In the physical world, it contains within its form endless chaos. By the will of the deities, it gives birth to all living things. I speak of crystal."

If crystals have within them chaos and the true form of the fal'Cie are the crystals inside them (e.g. the obvious crystal seen inside Anima), why shouldn't they have souls too? It's all very needlessly confusing.


Another good question is why we never see or hear about a grave for Serah in LR. What was done with her body?

The Watanabe interview about Reminiscence was not nearly so romantic or shippy as we were led to expect:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/681990-lightning-returns-final-fantasy-xiii/69438054?page=30

lol, I had a feeling that was the case. But I always anti-Hoperai anyway. It's still a nice bone for the shipping fans but the rest of it can ignore it for what it always was, two characters strongly attached to each other in a platonic way. Like Noel and Serah.

Also, I love it when I can recognize people from here on gamefaqs.

imo, she's meeting Serah in the end. Because seriously, her hope and who she was searching for was ALWAYS Serah. That was her end game. If it's not, what the fuck is the point.

As far as mythology goes

Or maybe Bhunivelze unknowingly creating Etro in Mwynn's image had something to do with her passing into the Unseen Realm upon death and then being able to influence the chaos?

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This seems most likely. Bhuni and Mwynn seem to be naturally different, which might have been the reason for their fight, and Etros and is like Mwynn so she gets to go to the other realm.

It just occurred to me that Yuel was created in Etro's image, and all three basically became the guardians of chaos and souls. So as long as nothing is made in Yuel's image, the universe is probably good. No more changes in hand.

Though I still find the whole mythology inconsistent and confusing. The Fragment from XIII-2 entitled "Bhunivelze's Sleep" tells us "In the physical world, it contains within its form endless chaos. By the will of the deities, it gives birth to all living things. I speak of crystal."

If crystals have within them chaos and the true form of the fal'Cie are the crystals inside them (e.g. the obvious crystal seen inside Anima), why shouldn't they have souls too? It's all very needlessly confusing.

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I'm just going to chalk it up to poor writing. I considered crystals and chaos linked but never the same thing, life is crystals, souls are chaos.

That said, odd things seemed to spontaneously gain souls. Like Bhaki, the robot. That could be just a little side story they wanted to write and interesting side story. I've seen a lot of people complain about the random side stories that make no sense, but even though the Bhaki one makes the least amount of sense, everyone loves it.

That's because nobody actually cares about people but everyone loves little, faithful robots. :')

Ahhh ... I'm sorry if you feel let down or led on there Tres, didn't mean to led anybody on, was just going by what others were saying

Not your fault, hon.

Splintered said:

This seems most likely. Bhuni and Mwynn seem to be naturally different, which might have been the reason for their fight, and Etros and is like Mwynn so she gets to go to the other realm.

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I agree that the two gods we know about seem fundamentally different. Bhunivelze can't see or manipulate souls/chaos while Mwynn -- and later Etro, then Caius and Yeul -- could.

Any thoughts on the possibilty of Mwynn opening the Door to the Unseen Realm and influencing Etro's creation/inadvertently setting up her own second death?

How ironic, by the way, that Bhunivelze's goal of ensuring Mwynn's complete destruction was accomplished long ago without him knowing it.

sorry but i literally started to cry and go "no no no" at the robot side quest in lr, it hit me really hard in the honey nut feelios

I'm going to need to start playing this again because it takes time to develop the skill for the timing on blocks and I'm in fear that I've lost it. I'm convinced if I start the game up again I'll die miserably numerous times before getting the hang of it :/

Here's what I don't get:

Why did Lumina lead the Secutors to the Holy Clavis in the first place, if she knew it would ultimate destroy her existence and Serah's Soul (along with the rest of the dead souls trapped in the chaos)? Unless she was gambling on Lightning being the one to save her? Arghhh...

Also I have this crazy picture in my head of Mwinn being eaten alive by an army of crazy Yeuls going munch-munch-munch (unseen Chaos, etc).

I don't know how many people caught on about it, but Yeul is supposed to be an identical "copy" in appearance of Etro, so a bunch of mini-Etros (unseen Chaos) eating away at a giant "real" Etro... it's really creepy to think about.

And then they end up opening up Etro's Gate and dragging Lightning down there... Etro is never seen throughout the entire event, you just see dead Yeuls / living Yeuls wash up on the beach over and over in Valhalla and multiple instances of Caius showing up to bury them.... urgh, my head.

Why did Lumina lead the Secutors to the Holy Clavis in the first place, if she knew it would ultimate destroy her existence and Serah's Soul (along with the rest of the dead souls trapped in the chaos)? Unless she was gambling on Lightning being the one to save her? Arghhh...

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My guess? To force conflict. Besides being a little shit and trying to get Lightning's to accept her feelings, I got the impression she was trying to make the other characters get better, but did it in a way that forced them to sink or swim.

Had Fang found the clavis, she wouldn't have any reason to go the cathedral. She would have sat on the artefact until time ended because the fight was enough to keep her away from Vanille. As long as Vanille wasn't dying, it was good enough for her.

And even if everyone told Vanille what was going on with the clavice, she might have listened, but the inherit problem would still be there, insane amounts of guilt and self depreciation that kept getting her into these situations. Vanille needed to face her issues, listen to the voices, and make the choice herself.

So I guess Lumina was breaking things knowing Lightning would eventually have to fix it all.

On top of that, Lumina even goes so far as to beg Lightning "not to go to the Cathedral" on the Final Day saying she "doesn't want to be left alone".

Why go through starting all that trouble and on top of that get in people's way and try to stop Lightning from doing what she herself started?

It just seems like Lumina is a lot like those conflicted Yeuls who have contradicting feelings for Caius (some want to free him, others want to keep him bound).

My guess is they didn't think about what Lumina's goal or motivation was until the scene revealing her origin.

Okay, having watched that scene again, I "think" I get it.

Lumina was scared of Lightning leaving her all alone at the bottom of the Chaos.

See, Lightning's weak self was purged of her own free will, so it would stand to reason that that "part of her" would probably be floating in the Chaos somewhere.

In a later scene (after beating Bhunivelze the first time), Lightning was just about to accept her new role as the replacement for Etro after sending all the other souls to the new world in an attempt to seal what was left of "crystal/Bhunivelze" away within the Chaos... in fact the Unseen Chaos was practically "binding her" to the Throne.

So what I'm thinking is, the "Role of Etro" means that you cannot exist in the living world no matter what conditions were placed on you prior to making the choice of replacing Etro (or in this case, the 'original role of Mwinn' which was passed on to Etro).

It wasn't just Lightning who was scared of becoming the "New Etro" it was Lumina herself!

Lumina contained all of Lightning's fears and doubts, so it makes sense that she wouldn't want to be abandoned in the Chaos, that's why she told Lightning "Don't take everyone with you!", because she knew that all the dead Souls within the Chaos would be moving to the new world, leaving her alone with the Unseen Chaos as long as Lightning refused to accept her own doubts and fears.

To add to this, Lumina was a "piece of Lightning" so it makes sense that Lumina would have powers comparable to Lightning's.

Basically what you're saying is, Lumina was crying & afraid because Light was just gonna go along with Bhuni's plan in which she would've fished all the dead guys outta the chaos and took them home leaving Lumina all alone?

No, it's more like Lumina would've still been sad if Lightning had abandoned her regardless of whether or not she betrayed Bhunivelze. So long as Lightning was acting as the "fearless Savior" and not relying on anyone... Lumina would be alone.

So even if Lightning saved all those souls and sent them to the new world, so long as she refused to accept her past, she would never truly overcome Bhunivelze and have the strength to beat him down in to the Unseen Realm, because she was incomplete without her past and the help of the other souls.

(Sounds awfully like the "Creator" story from Valkyrie Profile).

I found a funny Easter Egg.

Did anyone else notice that the Oracle Drive you look at just before meeting/clashing with Noel actually "shows" the events of the end of the game (i.e. Lightning using a sword to cut at an exploding Planet).

Hahaha... the Oracle Drive "told the truth" after all... it's just those events were out of order.

The "exploding planet" that Noel sees in the Oracle Drive isn't their home world (besides Nova Chrysalia was a flat plane, more like a segmented floating island... how could Noel confuse it for a planet?). And likely said planet was uninhabited when Bhunivelze destroyed it (this happens as he's trying to escape the Unseen Realm after Lightning knocks him in to it the first time).

The scene where Lightning "cuts downward" is when she lands the killing blow on Bhunivelze with her "soul sword" (when everyone teams up with her to knock Bhunivelze back down in to the Unseen Realm).

So they both happen, just in reverse.