About "G" from DoC and FFVII... (spoilers)

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#26
Again...they'd have to retcon the fact that Sephiroth's been shown defeated and diffused in ACC and that his soul is gone. I mean they could...hell it's their own story...but it'd be out of step with what they've shown us regarding his defeat and what it takes for him to revive in the first place.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#28
Again...they'd have to retcon the fact that Sephiroth's been shown defeated and diffused in ACC and that his soul is gone. I mean they could...hell it's their own story...but it'd be out of step with what they've shown us regarding his defeat and what it takes for him to revive in the first place.
:bigmonster:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#31
Considering how hard it was for Sephiroth to come back post FFVII and the amount of himself he lost just to get a chance to live once more, I highly doubt there'd be anything left of him if he even attempted such a thing.

Let alone there's the fact that there's virtually no Jenova corpus left for him to manipulate. He'd probably not even remember who he was if he tried that shit again.
 

Andalegogo

Rueful Figure
#32
Again, I just don't see where people have gotten the idea that Jenova is "permanently brain dead". It was incapacitated by some unknown Cetra magic, and then sealed by Shinra technology, only to be released and subsequently owned by Sephiroth. There are instances in Ff7 where we can clearly see that Jenova can recite a line or two of its own accord even though it is under Seph's rule. In AC it continues to be domineered by Sephiroth, but then he "dies"/is thwarted.

It seems as though it remains inactive during DoC, but all of a sudden Genesis wakes up because he thinks there's a problem he needs to fix.

I simply don't recall any material that says Jenova is done for and definitively shows that that there is no way it can ever become a threat in the future. The instinct of the creature as a whole exists in each of the individual cells, so as long as there are Jenova cells, Jenova will always be present. As long as it is present it will always be a threat to the planet.

Of course, if anyone's got material saying that Jenova will never rise again, or info to that beat, please provide.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#33
...Are you missing the fact that most of its body is dead, and Aerith's holy water flows through the planet, killing any manner of Jenova's "mimetic legacy" that might try to flow within the planet?

How is that it being a continuing, lingering threat? It's body is *gone.*
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#34
Jenova was complete destroyed, and if her cells were all that were necessary for her survival she wouldn't have completely fell off the map after FF7. She's done. Sephiroth's done.

Her mind doesn't exist in the cells. She's gone. Every bit of her has been decimated, I don't see how someone can say she's still around.
 

Andalegogo

Rueful Figure
#35
Jenova was also supposedly destroyed at the end of FF7, but it turned out her cells had simply dispersed into the Lifestream. Sephiroth was also supposedly destroyed at the end of FF7. Lo, it turned out he had gotten pissed and immediately began frying people's bodies via Geostigma.

AC also implied that Geostigma was done, but it pops up yet again in DoC.

Jenova's demise is vague and totally open for the creators to tinker with, and it wouldn't require any retcons, as I mentioned earlier. At this point it'd be easy to either make Jenova a memory of trials passed, or to revive it to be as big a threat it was a long time ago.

I don't know why you'd think I would just take your word on the matter. You know as little as I do on what plans are for the next threat in FF7, chief. None of us has any say in where Jenova and Seph go from AC, or if they stop dead for eternity.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#36
Jenova never came back after her death. Just a piece of her was left after FF7. Jenova=/=her cells. Jenova's body and mind are both gone after AC.

It's not my word, it's the actual events of the game chief. I'm stating what happened, nothing more. I have no control over what future events conspire, but the games show us that she's gone. Her death isn't vague, she's destroyed at the end of FF7 and what was left of her in AC.

Anything more than that is wishful thinking.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#37
No, FFVII didn't say Jenova was dead forever. You just defeated Jenova SYNTHESIS on the way to Safer Sephiroth. AC states that the final remaining piece of Jenova's "head" was all that was left in the world, and it was used by Sephiroth to construct a body. A body that was summarily defeated and destroyed, leaving behind only a fading remnant that returned, purified, to the Lifestream.

Geostigma does NOT reappear in Dirge of Cerberus. Those are nothing more than Jenova cells inside of people who used to have Geostigma. Geostigma is gone, and no longer a disease, thanks to Sephiroth being dead. As shown in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania and the Revised re-release edition, Geostigma is shown to ONLY APPEAR IN AC. It's not Geostigma in DC, despite them saying so on the DG SOLDIER scanners.

So your premise is faulty right from the start.
 

Andalegogo

Rueful Figure
#38
Mako Eyes said:
No, FFVII didn't say Jenova was dead forever. You just defeated Jenova SYNTHESIS on the way to Safer Sephiroth.
SYNTHESIS, iirc, was supposed to be her final form. The UOG even calls it her most "perfect form". Or at least as perfect as she could hope to get after the course of the game. It was her final form. One would expect that after destroying someone's *final form that might be the end of them in totality.

AC states that the final remaining piece of Jenova's "head" was all that was left in the world, and it was used by Sephiroth to construct a body.
These were cells that he could use to construct a body, but he could still use the other cells scattered throughout the world to perform the other parts of his plan. The "head" wasn't all that was left.

Those are nothing more than Jenova cells inside of people who used to have Geostigma. Geostigma is gone, and no longer a disease, thanks to Sephiroth being dead. As shown in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania and the Revised re-release edition, Geostigma is shown to ONLY APPEAR IN AC. It's not Geostigma in DC, despite them saying so on the DG SOLDIER scanners.
Only goes to show that there are still many J-cells out there just waiting for the command to act.

I don't think it's a long shot to consider Jenova resuscitating itself now that Sephiroth's will is gone. If it were to do so, it could cause some havoc.

There's really no way you can convince me enough to discard an expectation with the bits of information that exist, so maybe we should just drop it.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#39
SYNTHESIS, iirc, was supposed to be her final form. The UOG even calls it her most "perfect form". Or at least as perfect as she could hope to get after the course of the game. It was her final form. One would expect that after destroying someone's *final form that might be the end of them in totality.
Yeah, but there wasn't a plot device in FFVII that eradicated all of her cellular matter that flowed through the lifestream. (Hint...its in AC.)

These were cells that he could use to construct a body, but he could still use the other cells scattered throughout the world to perform the other parts of his plan. The "head" wasn't all that was left.
And how is he going to reach those cells if they are inside actual people and outside of the reach of his will. Not to mention the fact his will is gone, and dead after his defeat in ACC. And also Aerith's Holy Water is INSIDE the planet protecting it from the cellular matter of Jenova? You're not making any sense at all, given the facts.

Only goes to show that there are still many J-cells out there just waiting for the command to act.
Are you...not even reading what's being said? There aren't many Jenova cells out there waiting for a command. And even if there were, WHO'S gonna command them? Did you even read Lifestream Black?

I don't think it's a long shot to consider Jenova resuscitating itself now that Sephiroth's will is gone. If it were to do so, it could cause some havoc.
Then you obviously aren't paying attention or accepting the facts. And way to go at ignoring my proof that your statement of Geostigma existing past AC is false.

There's really no way you can convince me enough to discard an expectation with the bits of information that exist, so maybe we should just drop it.
So..you're just gonna ignore the facts?
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#40
How will Jenova resuscitate itself from nothing? The cells are worthless without the accompanying sentience. The cells are nothing more than tools without their owner.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#41
Here's what we know:

1.) Geostigma is gone now that Sephiroth is dead.

2.) Jenova cells can no longer survive or exist within the Lifestream because of Aerith's holy water. When someone dies, their spirit energy will no longer be tainted and create a "negative lifestream." The negative lifestream is gone.

3.) Sephiroth's will is gone. His spirit was destroyed, as was his physical form made of Jenova cells. Furthermore, his return to life cost him a significant portion of his persona and memories. Given the fact that he lost a good deal of himself in the Lifestream, while he held onto his "core of hatred" for Cloud...how much left would remain if he tried that again? He's diffused.

4.) Jenova's main body and head are gone, leaving behind only a few scattered cells. Her mind does not exist within those cells, meaning it can't miraculously return to life and become whole again. No Reunion instinct is at work instructing the cells.


So I'm failing to see where Sephiroth could easily come back and its within the current realm of possibility.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#42
Why is it being stated as a direct fact that Sephiroth & Jenova are gone for good? I'm sorry, but these conclusions are only being reached due to significant twisting of the evidence. Their deaths weren't significantly different from what they were in VII. Saying shit like, "Sephiroth's will has been destroyed," & "there are no more remnants of Jenova" is just putting words in SE's mouth. These lines aren't supported anywhere.

Furthermore, the sheer fact that people still have Jenova cells is enough reason for either of them to come back.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#43
Saying shit like, "Sephiroth's will has been destroyed," & "there are no more remnants of Jenova" is just putting words in SE's mouth. These lines aren't supported anywhere.
Sure they aren't, if you ignore every presented forth by the compilation.

Furthermore, the sheer fact that people still have Jenova cells is enough reason for either of them to come back.
No it isn't, that's nonsense.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#44
Sure they aren't, if you ignore every presented forth by the compilation.
[citation needed]

Seriously, give me a direct quote that says, no, even IMPLIES that Sephiroth is gone for good, & I'll shut up.

As it stands, the assertion is being made as just "obvious." If you can't explain it, you have no right getting pissy with the dissenters. Frankly.

No it isn't, that's nonsense.
"When Jenova is wounded, its cells come back together. We call this its Reunion."~Hojo, FFVII.

You wanna talk about ignoring shit?
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#45
[citation needed]

Seriously, give me a direct quote that says, no, even IMPLIES that Sephiroth is gone for good, & I'll shut up.
Sephiroth barely held himself together within the lifestream before AC, and he only survived by destroying his memories and making use of the negative lifestream. He stopped himself from being completely diffused by using his remnants, the remains of jenova, and the negative lifestream.

All of these things are gone.

The Holy Water obliterated all that and Sephiroth's influence, and is protecting it from future incursions. Saying "I'm not going to believe it until the creators say so" when we've already seen it and read about is just denial.

As it stands, the assertion is being made as just "obvious." If you can't explain it, you have no right getting pissy with the dissenters. Frankly.
I'm pissy. Lol ok dood.
"When Jenova is wounded, its cells come back together. We call this its Reunion."~Hojo, FFVII.
When Jenova is wounded, NOT when it's dead. Even then, it needs more than cells, it needs a mind to hold it together.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#46
I think, in these arguments, it's important to note when you're stating your opinionated hypothesis, & an official fact.

When submitting a theory, you should say, "I think," not "It is."

You guys' problems is that you refuse to acknowledge that, without official confirmation of your statements, you could just be misreading the evidence.

Do you realize how dickish it is to rant at people about how wrong they are when you don't even know how the plot will go, yourself?
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#47
I think, in these arguments, it's important to note when you're stating your opinionated hypothesis, & an official fact.

When submitting a theory, you should say, "I think," not "It is."
I'll be sure to do that when I submit a theory.
You guys' problems is that you refuse to acknowledge that, without official confirmation of your statements, you could just be misreading the evidence.
No, we're stating facts derived from the material provided.
Do you realize how dickish it is to rant at people about how wrong they are when you don't even know how the plot will go, yourself?
It's dickish to state when something comes into direct conflict with the existing facts as presented by everything so far?

That makes no sense.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#49
Because people are incapable of stating events as they transpire?

That's asinine.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#50
Because people are incapable of stating events as they transpire?
Because you're shouting down people for making inferences that are just as supported as your own.

THAT'S asinine.
 
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