About "G" from DoC and FFVII... (spoilers)

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
You're not making any sense.

Why would the translation refer to "Flesh" using two different words? One for actual "flesh" and then the term "cells?" There's not only one term to refer to whole pieces of flesh. If both words referred to Jenova's corpus as cells and flesh, then it'd be redundant. Why would there be a distinguishing?
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
I had a quick look at it, they are two different words. 肉体 (nikutai) for the flesh and 細胞 (saibou) for cells. 'The flesh' being key here, as it refers to the body as a whole and not just a bit of meat.

Also, 'cellular unit/level [calling to each other]' might be a better choice than 'called cells'.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
I had a quick look at it, they are two different words. 肉体 (nikutai) for the flesh and 細胞 (saibou) for cells. 'The flesh' being key here, as it refers to the body as a whole and not just a bit of meat.

Also, 'cellular unit/level [calling to each other]' might be a better choice than 'called cells'.
Well that doesn't really change the definition much, does it? The pieces of Jenova's body, which are called its cells, try to reunify. Isn't that what it says?
 
That significantly weakened him. Why would he surrender his own memories when he needs them to be complete, and it resulted in him not even being able to remember what he looked like? If his goal is to come back and be reborn, why would he purposefully hinder himself?
Who knows, maybe he knew he could easily get himself back so it wasn't worth the effort to hold himself completely together.

Again. The passage:

demonstrates that, it is not that simple. He'd have to learn it all over again. Finding his own memories within the lifestream isn't possible.
No, that is not what that passage says, it also proves my point. When he re-learns who he once was, why would he be able to keep that knowledge? Nowhere does it say finding his own memories within the Lifestream is impossible.

Yeah..by evaporating all the water. But you can't really do that with the lifestream can you? :awesome:
Lol. But physical matter can't actually be combined with the Lifestream THAT would be retarded as the Lifestream is knowledge, memories and experience NOT physical matter.

The proof is common sense. You can't regenerate from a single cell. It requires FLESH for the Reunion to occur.
Being honest with you here, I know nothing about other languages except for German, however "separated pieces of flesh" in the very description you have is very vague and could in fact be as small or as big as one interprets.

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/220/final-fantasy-vii-series-terms-and-definitions/

And right next to that definition is a picture of Sephiroth...in the Northern Crater...regenerating in FFVII. It's describing exactly what Sephiroth did. He regenerated from a piece of his flesh...his torso. If he only PARTIALLY dissolved, then the entirety of his body didn't dissolve away. A portion of it survived, meaning it wasn't completely reduced to nothing. Jenova doesn't just start cell by cell in the Reunion. That's ridiculous.
A piece of flesh can also be a flappy one inch of skin...? Look, partially dissolved is NOT what that quote says. :( How do you know? Skin Cells can in fact be a 'piece of flesh'. That picture is how far into Sephiroths reunion?

When did he get Jenova cells out of people?
Well, he called all of Jenova Cells into a reunion, that made all of the Sephiroth Clones go to him, I assumed he used thier Jenova Cells to also regenerate.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
Who knows, maybe he knew he could easily get himself back so it wasn't worth the effort to hold himself completely together.
You make no damn sense. Again, why would he put himself through unnecessary work if he could easily keep his own memories within himself? Why would he toss them away and go digging back for them if he could keep them? You need to use Occam's Razor and get in step with logic.



No, that is not what that passage says, it also proves my point. When he re-learns who he once was, why would he be able to keep that knowledge? Nowhere does it say finding his own memories within the Lifestream is impossible.
How the hell does him having to re-learn who he was from another person on the surface, prove the point he could reach into the entire lifestream and find his own memories? It's not even the same thing.



Lol. But physical matter can't actually be combined with the Lifestream THAT would be retarded as the Lifestream is knowledge, memories and experience NOT physical matter.
10th Anniversary Ultimania said:
A fallen angel who brings despair to Cloud and the world
with his Second Advent.

Although he was defeated in the war surrounding Meteor, and had once fallen into a Mako Reactor, he did not return to the Planet but instead was diffused into the Lifestream.
When he fell into the Lifestream, his physical body, diffused into the Lifestream. Yes, physical matter can get diffused and eroded by the lifestream. As shown by Sephiroth. Wtf are you talking about?




Being honest with you here, I know nothing about other languages except for German, however "separated pieces of flesh" in the very description you have is very vague and could in fact be as small or as big as one interprets.


A piece of flesh can also be a flappy one inch of skin...? Look, partially dissolved is NOT what that quote says. :( How do you know? Skin Cells can in fact be a 'piece of flesh'. That picture is how far into Sephiroths reunion?
They distinguish pieces of flesh, with actual CELLS. Do you not see the distinguishing between an actual piece of flesh being called its cells?



Well, he called all of Jenova Cells into a reunion, that made all of the Sephiroth Clones go to him, I assumed he used thier Jenova Cells to also regenerate.
Perhaps, but he was using the Reunion with the Black Cloak people to make them bring him the Black Materia.
 
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Lioneh

the cake is a lie.
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Well, just Lioneh usually. Or Ly. Whichever. :)
Thread revival! :monster:

Okay, let me throw this out here and actually relate to the original purpose of this topic: Genesis.

Has everyone somehow forgotten that Genesis himself possesses Jenova cells, however poorly integrated, in his body? Obviously, they were not destroyed when he had his degradation healed by the giant globe materia or after meeting with Minerva, as we can clearly see his freakin' huge wing at the end of DoC [a result of having Jenova in the body from before birth]. [And as to why they did not respond to the 'Reunion' was because he was sealed and protected undergroud - perhaps his was partly also why he did it. Maybe Genesis was somehow aware of Hojo's Reunion theory and therefore wanted to protect both himself and the world from becoming a part of it. Who knows, just my little theory there XD.]

However, I really have no idea if this would enable any kind of Reunion anyway, as I kinda skimmed over that huge arguement there that went around in circles, but I just thought I'd mention it. -shrug-

Argue away, friends! |D
 

Loxetta

Pro Adventurer
Neither Genesis or Angeal were ever directly given Jenova cells. Genesis was was injected, as a fetus (or embryo, not sure) with cells from Gillian, who contained Jenova cells. Angeal absorbed Jenova traits when Gillian was pregnant with him.

The only thing that is obvious about Genesis is that he was restored to how he was before he was degrading. This doesn't mean he was stripped of his Jenovan qualities, as like Lioneh pointed out his wing is still present. There are a number of possibilities to how the Planet/Minerva accomplished his restoration, but first the reason Genesis was even degrading in the first place would have to be addressed.

According to Hollander's notes that Seph and Zack find in the Sector 5(?) mako reactor, degradation in G-type SOLDIERs is caused by an outflow of genetic information, which implies that it was the creation of copies that was making Genesis and Angeal degrade.

So, one possible route Minerva could have used to restore Genesis would be returning the pieces of himself from dead G-copies in the Lifestream. Another way would be to 'replace' what Genesis was missing with something new and making it integrate properly. Neither of these would strip Genesis' Jenova characteristics.
 

Lioneh

the cake is a lie.
AKA
Well, just Lioneh usually. Or Ly. Whichever. :)
Neither Genesis or Angeal were ever directly given Jenova cells. Genesis was was injected, as a fetus (or embryo, not sure) with cells from Gillian, who contained Jenova cells. Angeal absorbed Jenova traits when Gillian was pregnant with him.
But he does still possess Jenova's genetic abilities [and therefore at least part of her cellular matter through Gillian], though I'm not sure if her genes are prominent enough in his DNA to cause the 'Reunion instinct' as the others were debating before. But yeah, you're right, he did not directly receive Jenova cells like Sephiroth did before he was born [well I knew that, but yeah..].

So, one possible route Minerva could have used to restore Genesis would be returning the pieces of himself from dead G-copies in the Lifestream. Another way would be to 'replace' what Genesis was missing with something new and making it integrate properly. Neither of these would strip Genesis' Jenova characteristics.
Yeah, those are good theories! I likes them.

This just leaves me to wonder whether or not the Jenova presence in Genesis is strong enough to be a problem or not.
 

Loxetta

Pro Adventurer
But he does still possess Jenova's genetic abilities [and therefore at least part of her cellular matter through Gillian], though I'm not sure if her genes are prominent enough in his DNA to cause the 'Reunion instinct' as the others were debating before. But yeah, you're right, he did not directly receive Jenova cells like Sephiroth did before he was born [well I knew that, but yeah..].
True, he does, but since Jenova's cells were 'filtered' through Gillian he didn't receive everything. Which is why he was a 'failure' and had a smaller range of abilities than even Angeal. It's possible he could have gotten Reunion instinct even with Gillian's filtering, but yea :monster: he was sealed away when Sephiroth called Reunion, so there's really no way to tell if Jenova's traces in Geni would have responded.

Yeah, those are good theories! I likes them.
TY :awesome:

This just leaves me to wonder whether or not the Jenova presence in Genesis is strong enough to be a problem or not.
My interpretation would be no, for a couple of reasons. First was how Jenova's cells weren't pure, like I said above. And even if that wouldn't have a bearing, the Planet probably wouldn't choose a guardian that could be controlled by Jenova/Sephiroth/Bill Nye. :awesomonster: Seems like it would be counter-productive. Cloud has Jenova cells and he protects it, sure, but he chosen by the Planet, he got mixed up because of a vendetta, then chose himself.
 

Lioneh

the cake is a lie.
AKA
Well, just Lioneh usually. Or Ly. Whichever. :)
True, he does, but since Jenova's cells were 'filtered' through Gillian he didn't receive everything. Which is why he was a 'failure' and had a smaller range of abilities than even Angeal. It's possible he could have gotten Reunion instinct even with Gillian's filtering, but yea :monster: he was sealed away when Sephiroth called Reunion, so there's really no way to tell if Jenova's traces in Geni would have responded.
Yupyup, but he could still fly with one wing. Quite cool if you ask me. :awesome:
It would actually be pretty neat if Genesis realised that he himself was a threat or could be and also used that as a reasoning to wait for his time, like I said before. But the point is, as we both agree, is that he was sealed away and we'll never know.

Kind of sucks though XD;


My interpretation would be no, for a couple of reasons. First was how Jenova's cells weren't pure, like I said above. And even if that wouldn't have a bearing, the Planet probably wouldn't choose a guardian that could be controlled by Jenova/Sephiroth/Bill Nye. :awesomonster: Seems like it would be counter-productive. Cloud has Jenova cells and he protects it, sure, but he chosen by the Planet, he got mixed up because of a vendetta, then chose himself.
Very true, very true. Since it was Minerva and all, she wouldn't chose someone who could be a potential threat. -nod-

I think it would be kind of neat if the first experiment involving Jenova, the last remaining one alive, Genesis, was responsible for saving the entire planet. Would be kind of irony to Jenova when you think about it.

Finally, we've made a point that Jenova cells aren't entirely gone as debated before, [they exist in minimal numbers possibly through the population and also filtered/mixed in poorly with Genesis too], but this probably isn't enough to warrant a return.
 

Loxetta

Pro Adventurer
I'm from the "Jenova cells float in the Lifestream still" camp, myself. Also of the "Jenova cells in Geostigma survivors" camp. :monster: The creators haven't stated otherwise to my knowledge, and the narrative makes it hard for me to believe the cells could diffuse that easily into the Lifestream and cease to be unique (there wouldn't have been an issue getting rid of the bitch 2000 years ago then :awesome: ). They might be inert at the moment with no consciousness to direct them, but if a strong enough will came along with the capacity and opportunity to start, they could still be a problem. By themselves though, that's more sketchy. I suppose it would be a question of what the cells are capable of doing when enclosed in a host and not directed directly.

Also went and rewatched that 'Seekret Ending' again and think it's safe to say Genesis isn't waking up on his own. He's pretty unphased by recent events and doesn't react to Weiss' presence until some electrical shit decides to conduct from Weiss' body to the surrounding stalagmites and then to Genesis' water-bubble-thing. So Minerva holds some weight on his I-am-the-last-hero-to-protect-the-Planet thing and must have very limited options. (Which I guess is true, since the heros of the last game killed off all her WEAPON and Omega got HEADSHOT'd by some goth guy.)

Personal opinion: If Jenova or Jenova cells aren't involved with what's going to go down now, I'm going to be sorely disappointed. :monster: ShinRa Company's washed up on the shore (and apparently Rufus pulled out his Evil Stick anyway), Sephiroth would be pretty redundant, and if they 'reveal' another group of super soldier labrats that have been somehow hiding underground/in a cave/on an invisible sky continent since forever I'll scream.

Snarky post is snarky. And I can't believe I typed directed directly and was serious...
 
I like these kind of discussions, but with the habit SE has of retconning the FFVII story, I think its pretty pointless saying "I'm right, you're wrong" etc. Its like listening to religious people defend their interpretation of their holy text. The sequel will probably show you're all wrong =P.
 
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