About "G" from DoC and FFVII... (spoilers)

AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#51
Because you're shouting down people for making inferences that are just as supported as your own.

THAT'S asinine.
That's bs. I'm not "shouting down" anyone, I'm stating why what they're saying isn't applicable, BECAUSE it's not supported.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#52
I'd like to point out that this is coming from the guy who claimed G substance was official...

Yes, it's POSSIBLE that Sephy can come back in a sequel, just as it's POSSIBLE that Kefka comes back from the dead in 6-2. Doesn't mean it's gonna happen, though.

Based on all given evidence, the likelihood of Sephiroth coming back as more than a mindless but powerful zombie is pretty much nil.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#53
Shouting down was a bit of a hyperbole, I'll admit that. But the way you're all going, "No, this is true! I don't have any evidence to support it, but MY INFERENCE IS RIGHT!" is sort of obnoxious.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#54
Shouting down was a bit of a hyperbole, I'll admit that. But the way you're all going, "No, this is true! I don't have any evidence to support it, but MY INFERENCE IS RIGHT!" is sort of obnoxious.
The evidence is there already and you're still saying that. You just won't accept it because Nomura or Nojima isn't quoted saying such.
 

Andalegogo

Rueful Figure
#55
Mako Eyes said:
1.) Geostigma is gone now that Sephiroth is dead.
Sephiroth’s will is no longer influencing the cells, but the cells themselves are still there.

2.) Jenova cells can no longer survive or exist within the Lifestream because of Aerith's holy water.
This is a big assumption you’re making even though we haven’t really been given any kind of confirmation on what Aerith’s rain actually does. For now it doesn’t seem to be any different than Great Gospel, which grants subjects full recovery from all ailments. The skill has never been shown to be capable of actually killing J-cells, and I don’t see anything beyond subjective analysis saying that the rain did in fact kill J-cells at the end of ACC and supposedly went on to spread throughout the Lifestream.

Based on what it did in the original game and what we see in ACC, the rain appears to have just healed the damage of Geostigma for people beneath it. Nothing more. We are never shown or told that the Lifestream has suddenly adopted the traits of Great Gospel permanently. Aerith did not suddenly turn the whole of the Lifestream into a pool of miracles.

3.) Sephiroth's will is gone. His spirit was destroyed, as was his physical form made of Jenova cells.
Sephiroth’s status post-AC is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is about the possibility of Jenova’s return, not Sephiroth’s.

4.) Jenova's main body and head are gone, leaving behind only a few scattered cells. Her mind does not exist within those cells, meaning it can't miraculously return to life and become whole again. No Reunion instinct is at work instructing the cells.
You still haven’t provided anything indisputable pertaining to impossibility of Jenova’s return thus far. No description of Jenova has ever said that it needs its head or its main body to perform Reunion. The individual cells themselves call out to one another. It’s an instinct within the very cells. They wouldn’t need a sentience commanding them to perform it. They would simply mass together until all pieces were reunited.

And I don’t know how far you wanna read into this “sentience” thing. Jenova was a creature of pure instinct. Any intelligence it had was dedicated solely to mimicking and manipulating its victims to further its drive to cause destruction. The Reunion instinct is something basic that is present in each and every cell, independent of whatever higher thought processes Jenova might’ve had, and it’s this quality that warrants its description as being practically immortal and abnormally resilient, and what pretty much condemns the planet to having to deal it again sooner or later.

Final Fantasy VII Series Terms and Definitions said:
Reunion

[FONT=&quot]「[/FONT] FFVII – AC [FONT=&quot]」[/FONT]
One of the properties Jenova possesses is that separated pieces of flesh, called cells, will regenerate back to their original form - working toward the phenomenon of reunification. This is shown by instance(s) when both Jenova, who is practically close to immortal, and the son whom should be called Sephiroth, are resurrected sooner or later even after being destroyed.
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega said:
Vicious, extremely aggressive and cunning. Having no thoughts of creating anything following bringing destruction, it only follows its instincts to incite ruin, utilizing its mimic ability (-->P.211) to infect other living organisms with its virus. In addition, due to its abnormal resilience, even if dismembered, its cells will call out to one another, seeking to reunite into their original form (-->Reunion/P.211).
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega said:
**Jenova Relation 2: The Reunion* (005.1B)Due to its amazing regeneration capabilities, Jenova's divided cells reunite to become one again.
I figure there’s enough info to justify the idea that Jenova does have a chance at making a return, with or without a head or body. Though I don’t see enough information that suggests Aerith’s holy water can destroy Jenova cells. Nothing says as much, and the only part that so far as only implies it can be interpreted as being nothing more than a recover from the damage and pain rather than a destruction of the actual cells.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#56
The evidence is there already and you're still saying that. You just won't accept it because Nomura or Nojima isn't quoted saying such.
I'd settle for a character quote! But you have NOTHING direct, so HOW are you making these assertions so confidently?

Sephiroth’s status post-AC is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is about the possibility of Jenova’s return, not Sephiroth’s.
Not entirely correct. I'm stating that there's no definitive conclusion to either entity in AC.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#57
I figure there’s enough info to justify the idea that Jenova does have a chance at making a return, with or without a head or body. Though I don’t see enough information that suggests Aerith’s holy water can destroy Jenova cells. Nothing says as much, and the only part that so far as only implies it can be interpreted as being nothing more than a recover from the damage and pain rather than a destruction of the actual cells.
How can it's "cells"(flesh) regenerate from nothing? If all that's necessary are Jenova cells(the actual cells in people's bodies) don't you think that would have played some sort of part in FF7? When Jenova's mind was incapacitated in Shinra, it did fuck all. Without her mind the cells are worthless.

She can't do anything without a mind or a body. Her consciousness doesn't reside in every small bit of cells, and the reunion process can't happen on it's own without some sort of sentience holding it all together. Instinct is a property of her mind. Her being.

She won't suddenly reform from a few cells scattered among the populace.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
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Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#58
People with Jenova cells. Jenova wouldn't be regenerating from "nothing." All it has to do is make people jump into the Lifestream, as that's been shown to dissolve people, before. And, since we know mako cells can survive in mako, we now know that with SOME form of external willpower, a Reunion could still be achieved.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#59
People with Jenova cells. Jenova wouldn't be regenerating from "nothing." All it has to do is make people jump into the Lifestream, as that's been shown to dissolve people, before. And, since we know mako cells can survive in mako, we now know that with SOME form of external willpower, a Reunion could still be achieved.
What good would that do when the cells have been rendered inert? Sephiroth's will is what made the Jenova Cells inside people harm them, when Cloud killed him, Geostigma died with him.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#60
What good would that do when the cells have been rendered inert? Sephiroth's will is what made the Jenova Cells inside people harm them, when Cloud killed him, Geostigma died with him.
I'm not saying he's right. And there is nothing to support the statement that Sephiroth is dead. His physical reincarnation was killed, yes. But so what? He also "died" at Nibelheim, his body was destroyed when Safer Sephiroth was defeated, & "his will was destroyed" at the end of FFVII.

I've seen nothing demonstrating that the final battle in AC was significantly different than any other of Sephiroth's "deaths." So far, it's been stated as an indisputable fact just because it's an indisputable fact.

Circular reasoning is not valid reasoning.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#61
I've seen nothing demonstrating that the final battle in AC was significantly different than any other of Sephiroth's "deaths."
Did you read Case of Lifestream? Sephiroth struggled to survive in the Lifestream, to keep from being diffused like all the others. He had to start destroying his memories to survive, focusing only on his hate.

The only reason he didn't get dissolved entirely was thanks to the remmnants and what was left of Jenova rescuing him from Oblivion. What's to bring him back now that those avenues have been exausted?

So far, it's been stated as an indisputable fact just because it's an indisputable fact.
No it hasn't.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#62
He made the Remnants from scratch in that novella. Hell, he could just do it again. There's nothing stopping him, besides plot creativity.

And I keep asking you to give me direct confirmation of your claim, yet you keep ignoring that & just stating, "Sephiroth is dead" without any supporting details.

Circular. Reasoning.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#63
He didn't make them from scratch, and he invested a good deal of his resources into making them. Resources from the plan that's been foiled, resources he can't compile again.

He really has no option outside of Shuyin/Hojoesque possesion.
 
#64
Did you read Case of Lifestream? Sephiroth struggled to survive in the Lifestream, to keep from being diffused like all the others. He had to start destroying his memories to survive, focusing only on his hate.

The only reason he didn't get dissolved entirely was thanks to the remmnants and what was left of Jenova rescuing him from Oblivion. What's to bring him back now that those avenues have been exausted?

No it hasn't.
What? From what I understand Sephiroths great Will allows him to keep his identity in tact instead being dispersed like normal people. Nowhere does Case of Lifestream say that he HAD to just that he did. Remember Sephiroth learnt the Knowledge of the Ancients while in The Lifestream the first time, clearly he could - if he wanted to - regain all of his memories and experiences that he allowed The Lifestream to absorb.

I read in the Ultimania Omega that it was his Will.

Jenova has already been re-assembled at the northern crater already. What would stop it doing it a second time? Aeris?

Also, I thought he only used Negative Lifestream to create the remnants? With small parts of himself. He did not use a significant amount of Negative Lifestream.
 
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AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#65
He made the Remnants from scratch in that novella. Hell, he could just do it again. There's nothing stopping him, besides plot creativity.
He didn't make them "from scratch" he used the lifestream and what little he remembered of himself. If he could just keep doing that and doing it, he wouldn't have limited his chances of resurrection so much.

The only reason he was able to come back at all was because a piece of Jenova was left. Even if he could make more remnants, it would serve no purpose because as stated by he himself, he needs a piece of Jenova to do so, and there are no more.
And I keep asking you to give me direct confirmation of your claim, yet you keep ignoring that & just stating, "Sephiroth is dead" without any supporting details.
Oh Christ. Stop ignoring what I'm saying. The man was holding onto what little bit was left of himself in the lifestream. He used the remnants and remains of Jenova to regain himself and his memories and escape the lifestream. But he can't do that anymore without Jenova.

His stigma was rendered inert, the only way that could happen is through the water, and his death. HE was what made the stigma volatile.

Circular. Reasoning
Bull. Shit.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#66
What? From what I understand Sephiroths great Will allows him to keep his identity in tact instead being dispersed like normal people. Nowhere does Case of Lifestream say that he HAD to just that he did. Remember Sephiroth learnt the Knowledge of the Ancients while in The Lifestream the first time, clearly he could - if he wanted to - regain all of his memories and experiences that he allowed The Lifestream to absorb.
Read Case of Lifestream again. Sephiroth Himself says he needs what's left of Jenova to remember who he was. When he was creating the Remnants he couldn't remember what he looked like. If he could regain those memories wouldn't he have done it then?


Jenova has already been re-assembled at the northern crater already. What would stop it doing it a second time?
When Jenova reassembled at the Northern Crater her pieces still existed. She's complete gone now.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#67
He didn't make them from scratch, and he invested a good deal of his resources into making them.
He sifted through the Lifestream for some memories. That's hardly something he couldn't do again.

Oh Christ. Stop ignoring what I'm saying. The man was holding onto what little bit was left of himself in the lifestream. He used the remnants and remains of Jenova to regain himself and his memories and escape the lifestream. But he can't do that anymore without Jenova.
Then post something good! Your statement that "there's nothing left of Jenova" has been disproven a million fucking times with the people-who-still-have-Jenova-cells example. Your statement that "there was nothing left of him to hold on to" is deliberately overexaggerated to say that he can't come back.

Hell, if YOU read it, you'll note that he re-gained his memories when he reformed! If he DID return to the planet, he'd most likely do it COMPLETELY IN TACT. Which means, he wouldn't necessarily even NEED a crazy-ass plot device to reform.
 
#68
Read Case of Lifestream again. Sephiroth Himself says he needs what's left of Jenova to remember who he was. When he was creating the Remnants he couldn't remember what he looked like. If he could regain those memories wouldn't he have done it then?


When Jenova reassembled at the Northern Crater her pieces still existed. She's complete gone now.
"With a fragment of Mother’s body, I too can get a body again"

Doesn't say anything about needing what's left of Jenova to remember who he was.

"So the man found memories of a suitable appearance from the Lifestream"

Means, he can in fact traverse the Lifestream and gain knowledge, experience and memories from it.

" As my servants are looking for Mother, if they come across someone who knows me, then from that spirit I can learn of who I once was."

He is to lazy to actually search for his own memories etc in the Lifestream.

Jenovas head fell into the Lifestream with Sephiroth, and re-assembled at the northern crater with Sephiroth.
 
#69
People rarely to the planet completely intact. The people with Jenova cells are few and far between, anyone hit with Great Gospel no longer has them, for example. There's not enough for him to come back by that route.

All your argument is is that a SE is capable of bringing him back because they write the story, but by all accounts of the current plot, he can't. Besides, even if SE DID bring him back, even they wouldn't have him do it the same way he did before.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#70
He sifted through the Lifestream for some memories. That's hardly something he couldn't do again.
You're oversimplifying what he did.

Then post something good! Your statement that "there's nothing left of Jenova" has been disproven a million fucking times with the people-who-still-have-Jenova-cells example. Your statement that "there was nothing left of him to hold on to" is deliberately overexaggerated to say that he can't come back.
Jenova doesn't exist in her fucking cells. You haven't disproven a goddamn thing. Without Jenova, the damn cells are worthless. Jenova herself is fucking dead. Her body is gone and her mind with it. She's not a part of the lifestream so her mind wouldn't have been preserved like Sephiroth's either.

What the fuck is he going to use to come back?
Hell, if YOU read it, you'll note that he re-gained his memories when he reformed! If he DID return to the planet, he'd most likely do it COMPLETELY IN TACT. Which means, he wouldn't necessarily even NEED a crazy-ass plot device to reform.
Yes he would, HE NEEDS JENOVA'S FLESH TO REFORM. What the hell would he used?
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#71
"With a fragment of Mother’s body, I too can get a body again"

Doesn't say anything about needing what's left of Jenova to remember who he was.
As my servants are looking for Mother, if they come across someone who knows me, then from that spirit I can learn of who I once was. And with Mother’s further assistance, I can become fully real. Even if there’s something lacking, it doesn’t matter. Cloud will make me complete.

you're partially correct, but he makes it clear he lost his memories to the lifestream.

He is to lazy to actually search for his own memories etc in the Lifestream.
He isn't lazy, if he could regain his memories from the lifestream he'd just do it instead of doing it the roundabout way and losing even more time in the process. That makes no sense.

Jenovas head fell into the Lifestream with Sephiroth, and re-assembled at the northern crater with Sephiroth.
Uh, yeah?
 
#72
As my servants are looking for Mother, if they come across someone who knows me, then from that spirit I can learn of who I once was. And with Mother’s further assistance, I can become fully real. Even if there’s something lacking, it doesn’t matter. Cloud will make me complete.

you're partially correct, but he makes it clear he lost his memories to the lifestream.

He isn't lazy, if he could regain his memories from the lifestream he'd just do it instead of doing it the roundabout way and losing even more time in the process. That makes no sense.

Uh, yeah?
That is incredibly inconsistant, I think you are underestimating what Sephiroth is capable of.

He let the Lifestream absorb them.

No, what you are saying makes no sense because he gained the Knowledge of the Ancients and other random memories from the Lifestream. Why couldn't he go and recover his own memories?

Well, Jenovas cells don't get obliterated into nothing? Right?
 

Andalegogo

Rueful Figure
#73
Dacon said:
How can it's "cells"(flesh) regenerate from nothing? If all that's necessary are Jenova cells(the actual cells in people's bodies) don't you think that would have played some sort of part in FF7? When Jenova's mind was incapacitated in Shinra, it did fuck all. Without her mind the cells are worthless.
By the time it was settled into the Shinra building Sephiroth had probably already mindraped it and determined its every action. He was in absolute control of every single aspect of Jenova’s existence. While he is in power it can be surmised that Jenova does not act unless the master commands so, but we have yet to see what Jenova does in a free state, which may be the state it is in post-AC.

Her consciousness doesn't reside in every small bit of cells, and the reunion process can't happen on it's own without some sort of sentience holding it all together. Instinct is a property of her mind. Her being.
Instinct is more a physical/chemical response to one’s environment than it is a property of the mind. The Reunion instinct is not dependent on any sort of intelligence or sentience. As long as a cell is alive it will act based on its instinct.

She won't suddenly reform from a few cells scattered among the populace.
Well the UOG does say that it could certainly happen sooner or later as long as living J-cells exist, and there are still plenty out there.
 

Neo Bahamut

Omnipotent Jackass
AKA
Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
#74
All your argument is is that a SE is capable of bringing him back because they write the story
Umm...no. I'm saying that it's fucking asinine to say, "my inference is right, you're full of shit."

but by all accounts of the current plot, he can't.
Also no. Quotes are being deliberately twisted to make it look that way. From a certain point of view, he can't. But, from another point of view, he's there.

They're. Just. Inferences.

Saying "he can't come back" is bullshit when these "pieces of evidence" can be looked at from 50 billion different angles.

Besides, even if SE DID bring him back, even they wouldn't have him do it the same way he did before.
My point is to show that they CAN bring him back that way. The sheer fact that he can do the same damn thing by all accounts demonstrates that he could easily come back via a few other ways.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#75
[citation needed]

Seriously, give me a direct quote that says, no, even IMPLIES that Sephiroth is gone for good, & I'll shut up.
Do you need a direct quote about everything stated in the story. Where's the evidence that says Sephiroth is NOT gone for good? Where's the evidence that says Sephiroth's will remains anywhere?

As it stands, the assertion is being made as just "obvious." If you can't explain it, you have no right getting pissy with the dissenters. Frankly.
I've already explained like 4 posts ago. Where's your contrary evidence, other than your adamant disbelief?



"When Jenova is wounded, its cells come back together. We call this its Reunion."~Hojo, FFVII.

You wanna talk about ignoring shit?
So where are the cells, after Sephiroth died? And why didn't a Reunion occur before Sephiroth decided to gain control of her remaining body and invoke it?
 
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