Whether he forgot about it, or whether he repressed it, or whether it's believable that he could do so such a thing, is secondary to the glaringly obvious issue of why he would have to do so in the first place granted everything else happening in the story ...
Based on my responses up to now, you know how I feel about posing the question of necessity here: The moment you bring reason into Cloud's activities, you've lost the plot and started wasting your time. To me, that is an utterly, utterly irrelevant question.
I wasn't the one to pose it either, though.
When pressed about how reason supposedly brings a strike against this suggestion, I simply pointed out -- and have continued doing -- that there is no reason to be found in the actions -- large or small; what to leave in, what to leave out -- we already know Cloud to have undertaken. Thus, no matter how unreasonable one more small, unreasonable choice comes across, it fits the pattern of his behavior. That's all Nomura needs to justify it, and that is all I've been speaking to. Never did I say "This is why and when he did it" -- I've merely responded to what some of you have said with "Here's why and when he might have done it. Or here's another why and when. Both of which are but two possibilities that would fit the pattern of behavior exhibited by this unstable individual at a time when his subconscious was desperately grasping at any straw within reach to keep his motor functions afloat, all the while building a more inconsistent, less secure cover story for the fragile consciousness underneath it all. What you're asking is a non-issue."
If you want to focus on questions of reason, my request is that you start with Nomura deciding to completely redesign the weapon to incorporate everything from the Compilation redesign, even to the extent of widely expanding a crossguard that was originally no wider than the blade yet which could now reasonably conceal the crossguard of the Compilation redesign.
Work with something where reason matters. Ask the questions where a real person made a conscious, deliberate choice rather than where a fictional mentally unstable character may have done something to suit the whims of Tetsuya "Symbolism is the Story" Nomura of all people.
hian said:
... and whether or not adding this adds anything to the quality of the writing of the story.
We're talking about Mr. Symbolism here. The guy who hid a pink ribbon under an ugly arm curtain of all things.
You think this would be bad writing. Let's take it from there. More than half of the storytelling decisions he makes actively detract from the writing quality of a story. Look at the straightforward stuff he takes from Nojima and turns into some supposed grand tapestry of meaningful ambiguity.
Look at what's been done with "Kingdom Hearts." Did the "Kingdom Hearts" franchise need time travel to become a primary plot point of the entire overarching story? Did time travel improve the writing quality of the franchise's overall narrative? I'm going to answer those for you: No. No, it did not.
The guy who did that is the same guy whose decisions we're discussing now. 'Cause that's who we're really talking about here. Forget Cloud Strife for a second. Don't ask yourself "Would Cloud Strife do this?" You need to be asking "Would Tetsuya Nomura do this?"
Or, as you said:
"... the same people who wrote the mess that is the compilation's storyline, is the same people writing this, so it wouldn't surprise me at all, if this plot-point is made even more complex and contrived than it needs to be, or what we've considered thus far."
My answer to both questions is "yes, absolutely." Even to me, thinking this idea is just wacky enough to be cool, it screams "YOU JUST GOT NOMURA'D."
Couldn't Cloud have like, put the cover on after Tifa finds him at the train station because he thought it would reinforce the hilt or whatever? Something small like that that the new Cloud would maybe do out or practicality?
The plot of the remake is probably going to be an overhaul of the OG. I'm sure much will be the same, but some things may be streamlined, some expanded on, others dropped entirely. Cloud's delusion will almost certainly be presented differently in this game. There's a lot more room in games these days for visual storytelling, as compared to when the OG was made. And with the Compilation, significance was added to the Buster Sword that didn't exist before. It makes sense to me that Sqex would want to do something with it.
Sure, the OG is really the only yardstick we have for analyzing this stuff right now. But the results we get probably should be taken with a grain of salt. Just because something doesn't gel with the OG, doesn't mean it won't make sense in the context of the remake.
Having the gold hilt hidden under this metal one isn't exactly subtle but it could be very effective if done right. Cloud can be totally aware that the gold is covered and it could still work fine, too.
i.e., he altered the sword as a way of personalizing it, like the uniform/armor, and later in the game after getting his memories back, he removes the metal hilt out of respect to Zack. It doesn't even have to be that dramatic, just some good old quiet symbolism -- like how he restored the sword after the events in AC/C, which didn't even happen onscreen, but was clear in meaning.
Good catch. Looking through pictures of the sword on its page at the Final Fantasy wiki, it's been extremely inconsistent even as far back as the original game -- same width as the blade in Nomura's design of Cloud for FFVII and on his battle model, wider in that image you posted and at the New Game screen.
Looking across all its appearances (KH, Dissidia and too many cameos to name), it changes from one to the next.
As interesting an analysis as that is (and it is damn interesting! It's really similar to an analysis of Cloud's psychosis I once wrote myself),
Starling said:
To conclude this section, I'd like to make it clear that I am not a psychologist and even if I was qualified to diagnose disorders, fiction isn't constrained to the limitations of reality and so won't necessarily line up perfectly, especially when things not occurring in real life are involved.
is really the big takeaway. The real-world analysis gives us, at best, an avenue to understanding Cloud's ordeal and why he couldn't simply "snap out of it." It gives us a means of explaining to someone who doesn't immediately get it why all of this was neither a deliberate lie on Cloud's part nor anything he should be blamed for himself -- he was a victim too in all this, after all.
That's pretty much what it was intended to be; A means of explaining Cloud's issues as it related to the way those things work in real life, as well as provide a better understanding of what's involved in that. Psychology is a big subject and it takes a lot of time and study to provide in-depth analysis of the workings of the human mind and how psychological disorders occur that I felt I wouldn't be able to fully encompass in my post. I also don't want anyone to use this information as a substitute for the knowledge of someone who actually studies it as part of their profession, even though I did take a few psychology classes focused on behaviour and coping mechanisms. From what I posted, it's not that hard to compare and contrast real life disorders with what we see of Cloud's issues.
Starling said:
How far this comparison can be taken without even mentioning Jenova and mako poisoning beyond the mako poisoning's role in Cloud's catatonic state and Jenova cells providing the memories Cloud shouldn't have is why I so strongly disagree with the notion that they're the main cause of Cloud's issues ...
In the absence of elaboration on the mechanics of the plot devices involved, such an analysis as you've written above would be our Bible for making sense of what happened to Cloud. Once upon a time, we had no Ultimanias and FFVII encouraged that level of study. As a route to academic exercise, it was probably a better time to be a FFVII fan.
Now, though, we have multiple source texts published by the IP holder in which the writer of the game is credited as providing editorial supervision and collaboration, explaining to us what went down from an in-universe perspective. The official explanation is by far less mentally stimulating, but so long as we're discussing the actual story, it means we have to discuss the one they gave us -- and the one they gave us tells us Cloud's mental collapse was due to mako poisoning, such as on pg. 216 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega:
Mako poisoning
As the Lifestream is where all life returns, it is overflowing with vast knowledge. Consequently, those who fall into the current of the Lifestream experience an abundance of knowledge surging into their mind, and face a high risk of mental collapse. This state of mental collapse is called "mako poisoning," and can occur through exposure to excessive amounts of spirit energy (mako energy) without even falling into the Lifestream. Cloud fell into a state of mako poisoning twice.
----
Though one could probably make a reasonable case for the trauma of Zack's death being mixed up in there somewhere as well, there isn't a reasonable basis to claim that it was the primary cause, or even a major one. That trauma is never even mentioned in the Ultimanias when discussing Cloud's false identity.
I think this is the core reason we disagree so much. Stamp of approval from the developers or not, the Ultimanias are not a substitute for what's said and shown in the games. As Hian said, time and the involvement of multiple people can muddle the interpretations given for in-game events, largely amounting to rationalizations that don't necessarily reflect the original intention of the work. Think about the Star Wars universe and all the changes, reinterpretations and contradictions that resulted from stuff like George Lucas tweaking his movies, all the spinoff material that's gone from not canon to canon to not canon again and how everyone's still mad about the whole midichlorian thing. Like fan assumptions shaped how they went about ACC and their general depiction of Cloud in other media, fan assumptions may also have affected the interpretations given in the Ultimanias as well.
I really don't see why you'd be so willing to throw out better reasoning based on the source material whenever a book meant to enhance rather than replace canon instead adds to the contradictions already present throughout the compilation. You even seem to be describing the arrival of the Ultimanias like a tremendous loss of in-depth, engaging discussions and then just accept that the Ultimanias somehow stop that from happening when that doesn't have to be the case.
Now addressing the mako poisoning, it doesn't actually go against what I said. While the mako poisoning did contribute to the vulnerability of Cloud's mental state, it's the trauma that actually led to the amnesia. In BC, a Turk is out for a few years due to mako poisoning and it's not like they forgot everything about themselves. From what's said and shown of mako poisoning, it seems to be characterized by exhaustion and loss of consciousness to the point of catatonia more than it is to loss of memory. If the mako poisoning Cloud sustained in Hojo's lab and when he was found in Mideel are to be counted as separate cases then that implies that he'd recovered from the first case at some point, meaning the underlying cause of his memory and identity issues would have to be something else.
Additionally, it's not like Cloud forgot everything before Zack died and then forgot about that too. Zack's death is a huge factor in the occurrence and is, again, what Cloud's amnesia and identity issues are centred around rather than just something that happened to get roped into it. If Zack didn't die, then most of Cloud's memory and identity issues as seen in the OG wouldn't really be able to take place even before accounting for the support Zack would likely provide. That his death is so vital for Cloud to have the memory and identity issues he had in the OG is something I'd call reasonable basis for considering it the primary cause regardless of what the Ultimania does or doesn't say about it.
Also, like I said earlier in this discussion, Cloud forgot tons of non-traumatic things and remembered plenty of other stuff that actually was traumatic (his mother being murdered, Nibelheim burning, Tifa being injured). There was nothing traumatic about having been inside the Shin-Ra building, but those memories were buried too -- not because they were traumatic, but because the context would shatter his illusion.
I actually addressed that. Dissociation isn't just about amnesia. What Cloud didn't forget about the Nibelheim incident was made more bearable by using Zack's perspective instead of his own, even if he still remembered it as his hometown being burned down and his mom dying. Thinking he was a SOLDIER first class when it happened instead of a Shinra MP that didn't make it into SOLDIER and had to return home a failure lessened the helplessness and self-doubt tied to his perspective of the events, making the whole thing bearable enough to cope without having to supress memory of the entire thing like he did with the lab and Zack's death. When dissociative amnesia is involved, the entire trauma doesn't necessarily have to be forgotten and it's not always the only thing either. Forgetting aspects of personal identity happens a lot even though those memories wouldn't necessarily be considered traumatic. It's all about the person distancing themselves from the trauma, whether that means just forgetting the traumatic event, repressing memories of themselves, creating a different identity better able to cope with the situation or becoming emotionally numb about it. You'll notice that Shelke coped with her time in Deepground through that last one, for example.
For that same reason, Cloud won't allow himself to access his memories of going into the general store in Nibelheim while recounting his tale of five years ago. The most we get is him walking in, the woman saying "Welcome" and walking up to him -- and then, upon her recognizing him and saying "Hey? Aren't you...," the screen flashes (as it often does when Cloud's memories are involved) and he asks himself "...Have I come here before? ...I don't remember."
It's not like he's saying he doesn't remember ever being there so much as whether or not he went there during his visit back home. What's being repressed in this case is the less positive return home and conflicts with the less negative recollection of how the time before Sephiroth burned down Nibelheim took place.
Just like with the Shin-Ra building, his mind decided he had just never been there.
The Shinra building thing was something of a poorly thought out way of hinting at the inconsistencies, considering Shinra MPs have reason to go to Shinra HQ as well and Cloud would've had to have spent time in Midgar at some point rather than only be in Junon. It was even retconed in CC when they decided that Cloud had been to the Shinra building before. Chances are they'll revise that in the remake and have him say something more to the effect of being less familiar with particular floors than the building itself. Right now that example's a bit up in the air.
You see the kind of gaps his illusion was willing to create to protect his false identity? Holes you could fly the Highwind through! It would not only sooner try to sell the idea that he worked for Shin-Ra as a SOLDIER for years without going into the headquarters, it even had him going so far as to pretend he didn't visit the store of the tiny village he grew up in.
See above about Cloud's memories of visiting the store. From what I found, inconsistencies in false identities resulting from dissociative amnesia seems to be pretty typical, as one of the characteristic symptoms is confusion and lack of certainty over one's identity or lack thereof, as well as discomfort when said identity is challenged. So even real life occurrences of that kind of thing aren't perfect, nor should they be expected to be as it's not like the mind intelligently discriminates what information is repressed based on whether or not it lines up with other information. Memory largely works through associations, some of which aren't readily apparent and may vary depending on an individual's thought processes and what associations they make. For example, there are cases of people who suffered brain damage that prevents them from interacting with people in a language they knew but doesn't harm their ability to use a different one because they don't process the two languages the same way. Likewise, a seemingly innocuous memory could be repressed due to an association the person made with something that's being repressed and so has to be repressed as well. The mind can be tricky like that.
And the Ultimania Omega is explicit on pg. 101 that this is what was happening with these incongruous memories:
The mysterious attitude of the villagers
Several of the villagers show Cloud a contemptuous attitude. This was the reception Cloud actually received, having left the village in a cocky manner only to return as a mere trooper. The reason he has no memory of entering the shop is because his subconscious worked to revise the memory, as the reception he received would substantiate that "Cloud did not become a SOLDIER" and remembering this could cause his psyche to collapse.
----
Again, that doesn't contradict what I'm saying, though I have to say again that I feel that you rely a bit too heavily on the Ultimanias when deciding what's canon and what's not. What can be taken from that quote is that:
In the real version of events, the villagers treated Cloud with contempt.
Cloud told the villagers he'd be a SOLDIER but then had to come back as a Shinra MP.
The memory of how the villagers actually reacted to his return was repressed because it conflicts with his false identity as a SOLDIER first class, which Cloud's mind is relying on to keep from falling apart completely.
This stuff is as cut and dry as it can be. It isn't as interesting, I'll agree, but it is what it is. We can certainly still discuss interpretations that could be drawn from the game without consulting official sources outside the game, but if we want to discuss canon, this is what we're working with.
They really haven't left much of anything to literary interpretation at this point.
If the Ultimanias create contradictions and lessen the enjoyment of canon as it's meant to be, then they aren't really doing their job now are they? I'd hardly call them canon over the OG and to truly discuss canon would be to compare sources and figure out the best way to sort out contradictions than to take the Ultimanias as gospel without second-guessing them.
Starling said:
... along with how I don't see Sephiroth getting involved until he kills President Shinra and even then his psychological manipulation is pretty mundane besides controlling Cloud's body and setting up an illusory recreation of Nibelheim. With how Cloud seemed to be able to throw off Sephiroth's attempt to make him kill Aerith and the lengths he went to break his mind, it seemed like Sephiroth was limited in how he could manipulate Cloud and couldn't really do much after Cloud sorted out his memory and identity issues.
Because of this, I find it most likely that the Jenova cells only copied memories, acting on self-preservation in response to the trauma Cloud sustained and the need to reestablish a functional mental state rather than as an attempt to manipulate Cloud. It certainly wouldn't be the only time Jenova cells behaved symbiotically with their host.
Your previous posts gave the impression you were at least partly attributing Cloud's memory and identity issues to the mako and Jenova cells and even if you aren't, it's something that tends to come up when discussing this, which inevitably brings Sephiroth into the mix. I figured I might as well address it while I'm bringing up the reason I disagree with it, especially since I'd already mentioned it in a previous post.
Whether he forgot about it, or whether he repressed it, or whether it's believable that he could do so such a thing, is secondary to the glaringly obvious issue of why he would have to do so in the first place granted everything else happening in the story, and whether or not adding this adds anything to the quality of the writing of the story.
Based on my responses up to now, you know how I feel about posing the question of necessity here: The moment you bring reason into Cloud's activities, you've lost the plot and started wasting your time. To me, that is an utterly, utterly irrelevant question.
I happen to think it's relevant and worth the time to think about. The point's been pretty well made about all the issues that would arise from having Cloud replace the Buster Sword's guard as part of his identity issues, including the writing contrivances that would be necessary for it to happen in the first place as opposed to simply having it be an aesthetic change akin to Cloud modifying his SOLDIER uniform.
Work with something where reason matters. Ask the questions where a real person made a conscious, deliberate choice rather than where a fictional mentally unstable character may have done something to suit the whims of Tetsuya "Symbolism is the Story" Nomura of all people.
Are we not discussing the in-universe viability of this and whether or not it makes sense from a storytelling perspective? I've also already brought up the issue with using the mental instability of a character as a convenient excuse to ignore any issue pertaining to their actions and reasoning without accounting for underlying factors in their behaviour. Whether or not Nomura decides to fly in the face of everything said here is something to be dealt with when we see for ourselves what direction the remake ends up going and shouldn't render reasoning about whether or not it makes sense in-universe and from a storytelling perspective irrelevant.
My answer to both questions is "yes, absolutely." Even to me, thinking this idea is just wacky enough to be cool, it screams "YOU JUST GOT NOMURA'D."
Based on my responses up to now, you know how I feel about posing the question of necessity here: The moment you bring reason into Cloud's activities, you've lost the plot and started wasting your time. To me, that is an utterly, utterly irrelevant question.
Depends on what is being discussed - namely what is likely to be the case in the remake, and what would make for good writing.
I see this discussion as pertaining to both topics. I know perfectly well that the creators of the remake are free to do whatever they want, and that if we were to limit this discussion to what they're likely to do, then the question of what Cloud would reasonably do based on established conventions and trends in the original narrative is not the definite yardstick for divining the future direction of the series -
However, that's not the point I was trying to make here, and as I stated quite clearly, this is an excellent chance to improve the quality of the writing after the damage it took with the introduction of post-original products, which I hope they do.
I'm under no illusion that they will do this however, nor am I making the argument that it's likely to happen. Don't get that twisted.
When pressed about how reason supposedly brings a strike against this suggestion, I simply pointed out -- and have continued doing -- that there is no reason to be found in the actions -- large or small; what to leave in, what to leave out -- we already know Cloud to have undertaken.
I don't agree. There is a clear pattern of behavior on Cloud's part in trying to maintain his illusion, and there is a clear depiction of Cloud in the original showing us the state he is in when Tifa finds him by the train-station.
Inserting a plot point of Cloud refitting the guard of his sword prior to meeting Tifa would be jarring and inconsistent with what is portrayed in the original plot.
The only way to fix that would be to firmly ret-con that scene and whatever scenes lead up to that point.
I would agree if he did it after coming out of his near catatonic state. However, in the original, he had the sword on him when he met Tifa, and at that point he was in no state to do much of anything except drag himself places, and mutter incoherently.
Putting a new guard on his sword at that point does not "fit his pattern of behavior" because at that point, his pattern of behavior was limited to, as I just said, stumbling around and muttering incoherently.
Nomura needs to justify it, and that is all I've been speaking to. Never did I say "This is why and when he did it" -- I've merely responded to what some of you have said with "Here's why and when he might have done it.
I'm aware of this, which is why my post was not a rebuttal to yours or even a direct reply, but merely a comment in passing on the nature of FFVII's plot in general based on your observation stemming from the Ultimania guide.
Or here's another why and when. Both of which are but two possibilities that would fit the pattern of behavior exhibited by this unstable individual at a time when his subconscious was desperately grasping at any straw within reach to keep his motor functions afloat, all the while building a more inconsistent, less secure cover story for the fragile consciousness underneath it all. What you're asking is a non-issue.
It's an issue from a quality of writing perspective, and personally, I'd want the remake to be as well written as it can be - not suffer the whims of lazy writing from creators who've painted themselves into corners by not keeping track of the various narrative strands they've added over the years.
If you want to focus on questions of reason, my request is that you start with Nomura deciding to completely redesign the weapon to incorporate everything from the Compilation redesign, even to the extent of widely expanding a crossguard that was originally no wider than the blade yet which could now reasonably conceal the crossguard of the Compilation redesign.
Why? Nomura's reasons can be whatever they may be - I'm concerned with the end result - whether it makes sense in the end or not.
Focusing on Nomura only tells us one of two things - whether he's a terrible director, or whether he's a good director.
That might be a topic for another day, but that's not what I was getting at with my post (although it would probably be a natural extension if SE fails to handle this properly).
My post was a "If Nomura goes in this direction without changing up other things, and indeed, changing them in X,Y,Z ways, then the story will suffer as a result. Hopefully, he'll know better than to do that."
Work with something where reason matters. Ask the questions where a real person made a conscious, deliberate choice rather than where a fictional mentally unstable character may have done something to suit the whims of Tetsuya "Symbolism is the Story" Nomura of all people.
Again, depends on what you're talking about. Nomura's reasons are not important to me - the results are.
I don't care why Nomura does what he does - I care that the remake tells a coherent story that is at least believable within the constraints of its own world-building.
This remake, with its new style won't be getting the kind of pass the original was given, at least not by me, and so this stuff matters.
You think this would be bad writing. Let's take it from there. More than half of the storytelling decisions he makes actively detract from the writing quality of a story. Look at the straightforward stuff he takes from Nojima and turns into some supposed grand tapestry of meaningful ambiguity.
Look at what's been done with "Kingdom Hearts." Did the "Kingdom Hearts" franchise need time travel to become a primary plot point of the entire overarching story? Did time travel improve the writing quality of the franchise's overall narrative? I'm going to answer those for you: No. No, it did not.
Exactly, which is why I hope to everything that's good in the world, that he won't screw this game over the same way as he's done everything else he's touched.
Let's make this clear - I don't like Nomura. I never liked Nomura, and my first meeting with him did nothing to improve matters at all.
He's a buffoon. He can make good character designs if upper management curtails his creative freedom to an extent so he doesn't explode all belts and Gackt on everything he draws - but that's about all I can say for the guy.
The guy who did that is the same guy whose decisions we're discussing now. 'Cause that's who we're really talking about here. Forget Cloud Strife for a second. Don't ask yourself "Would Cloud Strife do this?" You need to be asking "Would Tetsuya Nomura do this?"
And again, if the point of my post was to divine with exactitude with the game is going to turn out as, then that's what I would do. That wasn't my point though - my point was, if the developers want to make a game that makes a semblance of sense, these are their options -
A.) Rewrite Cloud coming to Midgar, and his mental state at that time,
B.) Make the change happen as a conscious choice for practical reasons, or
C.) Don't put the CBS guard underneath.
No, it just screams incompetence. It's a problem that's so easy to solve that you'd have to be a D-grade author at a lower level than that of the people who write trite SephirothXCloud Yaoi fan-fiction to fail at it.
Nomura doing it does not magically make that OK. In fact, I'd argue that it makes it worse.
It is however perhaps a natural problem arising from giving a character designer large creative control over a game rather than containing them to what they're good at and supposed to be doing - designing characters.
I'm a little confused as to how something simple like what Tenny or others have suggested for Cloud modifying the sword for purely structural reasons, rather than for hiding evidence of Zack would be considered bad writing. But them simply retconning the Compilation wouldn't be.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not speaking defensively of the Compilation Buster Sword. I don't care if they simply went back to the old style, or put the old style on top of the old one (which I think the evidence points to), but I don't see how the former counts as better writing than the latter.
Because even if that hilt stays on for the entire game, I STILL think that it's fairly clear that it's over top the gold bit and would be, if nothing else, an easter egg to allow fans to connect that particular thread through the various games.
I'm a little confused as to how something simple like what Tenny or others have suggested for Cloud modifying the sword for purely structural reasons, rather than for hiding evidence of Zack would be considered bad writing. But them simply retconning the Compilation wouldn't be.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not speaking defensively of the Compilation Buster Sword. I don't care if they simply went back to the old style, or put the old style on top of the old one (which I think the evidence points to), but I don't see how the former counts as better writing than the latter.
Because even if that hilt stays on for the entire game, I STILL think that it's fairly clear that it's over top the gold bit and would be, if nothing else, an easter egg to allow fans to connect that particular thread through the various games.
The former, them just going back to the old design, the gold bit not existing at all, is not good or bad writing, it's a style choice for the remake. Doesn't effect the narrative of the game.
Needlessly labouring Cloud's character with difficult to explain actions for the sake of a fun easter egg is bad writing.
And yeah, they retconned Cloud's never being in Shinra HQ too, but that was for CC, neccesary. Midgar was the hub of the game, they were giving you a chance to hang out with Aerith and everyone before going to that fateful mission in Nibelheim, putting in an additional scene afterwards of them picking up Cloud at Junon would've been weird.
Aesthetic preference. The details on the CBS are nice but there's something about the OBS guard that's nice in a different way than the design of the CBS one. I don't really mind whether or not the CBS guard is hiding underneath as long as bad writing isn't involved in its presence. It's definitely nice to see the OG guard after so long.
But would Tifa really do that? Her role in Cloud's issues is that she didn't take action when she had the chance, didn't say anything about the discrepancies she noticed rather than actively hiding them. Tifa hiding the guard would only be slightly less flimsy than Cloud doing it.
I kind of figured this would be for the sake of simplicity. Much easier to put a metal box over the guard and change the hilt wrapping only, instead of trying to fit more metal over the actual blade, putting it off-balance (and possibly being cumbersome).
I feel like the original gold is underneath, and that it being covered has to do with Cloud, whether subconsciously or not, trying to erase more of Zack and make it his own, make him the 1st Class. Maybe there's other reasoning involved, who knows? Perhaps the gold hilt is deemed too flashy, and Barret orders the sword hilt to be covered up (not saying it's likely, but perhaps possible).
Either way, I'm very interested to know in what the story behind it will be and why it was done. It could simply be as Tres says, since Cloud is already pretty messed up by that point there might not be one logical reason behind it. He's just getting over Mako poisoning and got his head even more messed up with watching Zack die and then walking across the wasteland and collapsing at the train station. That's going to screw with someone.
I think this is the core reason we disagree so much. Stamp of approval from the developers or not, the Ultimanias are not a substitute for what's said and shown in the games. As Hian said, time and the involvement of multiple people can muddle the interpretations given for in-game events, largely amounting to rationalizations that don't necessarily reflect the original intention of the work. Think about the Star Wars universe and all the changes, reinterpretations and contradictions that resulted from stuff like George Lucas tweaking his movies, all the spinoff material that's gone from not canon to canon to not canon again and how everyone's still mad about the whole midichlorian thing. Like fan assumptions shaped how they went about ACC and their general depiction of Cloud in other media, fan assumptions may also have affected the interpretations given in the Ultimanias as well.
I think the reason we disagree so much is you've been carrying around your headcanon for so long that you use it to make judgments about canon without realizing it or thinking about whether the contradiction at hand is just between canon and fanon when something doesn't line up with your headcanon.
I told you, we can do the literary interpretation thing (i.e. not consult anything outside the games/films) until the cows come home in threads explicitly for that purpose if you'd like, but if we're going to discuss canon then we're going to discuss canon.
There was a lot -- a whole lot -- of fanfiction of FFVII in the years between it and the Compilation. There are things that became ingrained in the fandom that have no place in the setting, and which still rear their head to this day. I saw a post here at TLS from as recently as July in which a forum member -- discussing the possible ages of Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth at the start of the Wutai War -- said they can't swallow the idea that Sephiroth may have been a general at 12.
Nowhere in any official sources -- games, Ultimanias or otherwise -- has it been said that Sephiroth was a general. Yet the idea has been there in the fandom from the beginning, and in the memory of some, it's as canon as Red XIII.
So, don't think I'm taking issue with you personally. It's not just you who does this. We can discuss FFVII as an interpretive work if you'd like (I would enjoy that), but in trying to draw conclusions about the canon, we aren't going to force fanon on the canon.
Starling said:
I really don't see why you'd be so willing to throw out better reasoning based on the source material whenever a book meant to enhance rather than replace canon instead adds to the contradictions already present throughout the compilation.
Because I want to discuss canon right now. If I want to do a literary interpretation, I'll do that in its proper place.
For the record, by and large, the Ultimanias do not make continuity more of a mess. There are occasional issues (in fact, there's a significant one that I will be making a thread for in a little while -- which I very much want you to participate in, by the way), but for the most part, they affirm what we already had enough information to figure out.
And sometimes they tell us we were wrong. That doesn't mean there's a contradiction, though -- it just means we were wrong.
Starling said:
You even seem to be describing the arrival of the Ultimanias like a tremendous loss of in-depth, engaging discussions and then just accept that the Ultimanias somehow stop that from happening when that doesn't have to be the case.
When we're discussing canon, it absolutely has to be the case. I don't know how long you've been part of this fandom, but I've been having discussions about FFVII's plot online since before Advent Children was announced, and I remember well the difference between then and now.
Fan analysis of canon used to be a much different animal. There was a lot more room for ideas that were drastically different but somehow still equally valid, for the simple reason that we didn't know what was canon.
Starling said:
Now addressing the mako poisoning, it doesn't actually go against what I said. While the mako poisoning did contribute to the vulnerability of Cloud's mental state, it's the trauma that actually led to the amnesia. In BC, a Turk is out for a few years due to mako poisoning and it's not like they forgot everything about themselves. From what's said and shown of mako poisoning, it seems to be characterized by exhaustion and loss of consciousness to the point of catatonia more than it is to loss of memory. If the mako poisoning Cloud sustained in Hojo's lab and when he was found in Mideel are to be counted as separate cases then that implies that he'd recovered from the first case at some point, meaning the underlying cause of his memory and identity issues would have to be something else.
His mind collapsed. That was due to the mako poisoning. Inarguably. His subconscious then used the Jenova cells to (imperfectly) rebuild his consciousness.
It's the combination of the mako poisoning shattering his consciousness along with his subconscious being able to use the power of Jenova to cherrypick memories that made him a mess. It picked the ones that allowed him to be his ideal self (
(caption on screenshot of Ifalna saying "He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the virus...")
イファルナの話によると、ヴィルスを与えられた古代種は心を失い、モンスターと化したという。
(caption on screenshot of Sephiroth saying "Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you")
ティファと会ったクラウドが新たな人格を形成したことについては、竜巻の迷宮でセフィロスが語るとおり。
Jenova's mimicry ability
Jenova possesses a mimicry ability to read the memories and thoughts of others, as well as transform to assume their appearance and voice. Jenova once used this ability to make the acquaintance of the Ancients in order to infect them with a virus, leading to their deaths.
This ability is also present in Jenova's physical matter, so those who carry Jenova cells have it as well, albeit in a more limited form. Shortly before the beginning of the game, while Cloud's mind was shattered, Tifa ran into him and he immediately "returned" to a seemingly normal state; this was because the Jenova cells inside Cloud read the image of him Tifa had in her memories along with his own ideal vision of himself, forming a new personality.
(caption on screenshot of Ifalna saying "He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the virus...")
According to Ifalna, the Ancients given the virus lost their minds and turned into monsters.
(caption on screenshot of Sephiroth saying "Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you")
Cloud forming a new personality when he met Tifa is spoken of by Sephiroth in the Whirlwind Maze.
----
).
Now, had he been allowed to lay there in the wasteland long enough to recover without dying from dehydration, exposure to the elements or attack by creatures in the waste, he may have recovered with his memories intact just like that Turk in Before Crisis. His subconscious didn't have three years to wait for him to recover, so it made use of what was available and did what it needed to keep him alive.
The second time he recovered, Tifa was able to help him rebuild his consciousness, and to do so with his memories in their proper place, sorted from what had belonged to Zack. He came back right that time.
Starling said:
Additionally, it's not like Cloud forgot everything before Zack died and then forgot about that too. Zack's death is a huge factor in the occurrence and is, again, what Cloud's amnesia and identity issues are centred around rather than just something that happened to get roped into it. If Zack didn't die, then most of Cloud's memory and identity issues as seen in the OG wouldn't really be able to take place even before accounting for the support Zack would likely provide. That his death is so vital for Cloud to have the memory and identity issues he had in the OG is something I'd call reasonable basis for considering it the primary cause regardless of what the Ultimania does or doesn't say about it.
Leaving the Ultimanias out of things for a moment, if restoring Cloud's proper consciousness had required calling up the memory of Zack's death and coming to terms with it, you might have the beginnings of a reasonable argument. That didn't happen, though, and this idea is definitely not supported in supplementary official materials.
Starling said:
I actually addressed that. Dissociation isn't just about amnesia. What Cloud didn't forget about the Nibelheim incident was made more bearable by using Zack's perspective instead of his own, even if he still remembered it as his hometown being burned down and his mom dying. Thinking he was a SOLDIER first class when it happened instead of a Shinra MP that didn't make it into SOLDIER and had to return home a failure lessened the helplessness and self-doubt tied to his perspective of the events, making the whole thing bearable enough to cope without having to supress memory of the entire thing like he did with the lab and Zack's death. When dissociative amnesia is involved, the entire trauma doesn't necessarily have to be forgotten and it's not always the only thing either. Forgetting aspects of personal identity happens a lot even though those memories wouldn't necessarily be considered traumatic. It's all about the person distancing themselves from the trauma, whether that means just forgetting the traumatic event, repressing memories of themselves, creating a different identity better able to cope with the situation or becoming emotionally numb about it.
The Shinra building thing was something of a poorly thought out way of hinting at the inconsistencies, considering Shinra MPs have reason to go to Shinra HQ as well and Cloud would've had to have spent time in Midgar at some point rather than only be in Junon. It was even retconed in CC when they decided that Cloud had been to the Shinra building before. Chances are they'll revise that in the remake and have him say something more to the effect of being less familiar with particular floors than the building itself. Right now that example's a bit up in the air.
Right now it's the only version of the scene we have. You can't cite something that doesn't exist yet.
Starling said:
See above about Cloud's memories of visiting the store. From what I found, inconsistencies in false identities resulting from dissociative amnesia seems to be pretty typical, as one of the characteristic symptoms is confusion and lack of certainty over one's identity or lack thereof, as well as discomfort when said identity is challenged. So even real life occurrences of that kind of thing aren't perfect, nor should they be expected to be as it's not like the mind intelligently discriminates what information is repressed based on whether or not it lines up with other information. Memory largely works through associations, some of which aren't readily apparent and may vary depending on an individual's thought processes and what associations they make. For example, there are cases of people who suffered brain damage that prevents them from interacting with people in a language they knew but doesn't harm their ability to use a different one because they don't process the two languages the same way. Likewise, a seemingly innocuous memory could be repressed due to an association the person made with something that's being repressed and so has to be repressed as well. The mind can be tricky like that.
Instead of being snarky and saying something like "I've never seen a word of this in an Ultimania, sorry" again, I'm going to reiterate a kinder sentiment I've already expressed: This is truly fascinating stuff. Let's discuss it in a thread that asks for literary analysis, not a discussion that hopes to reach a conclusion about canon.
Starling said:
Again, that doesn't contradict what I'm saying, though I have to say again that I feel that you rely a bit too heavily on the Ultimanias when deciding what's canon and what's not.
I rely too much on official sources in determining official narrative?
If I want to know what time a restaurant closes, I call that restaurant or check their website. I don't call the gas station down the street from them.
Starling said:
If the Ultimanias create contradictions and lessen the enjoyment of canon as it's meant to be, then they aren't really doing their job now are they?
Enjoyment is pretty irrelevant to the matter. The restaurant I mentioned calling doesn't care if it will hamper your enjoyment of the evening that they are closing in 5 minutes. That's when they close. You can't stick to your own reality and make everyone else live there too.
Plenty of people's enjoyment of FFVII was to some degree dependent on the ambiguous fate for humans at the end.
Plenty of fans' enjoyment was to some degree dependent on the idea that Jenova was actually in control of Sephiroth the entire game, making her the real enemy (taking the literary analysis approach back when that was all we had, I was quite the champion of this theory).
Plenty of fans' enjoyment of FFVII involved thinking the Cloud we know through the whole game was a literal clone of Sephiroth.
All these things have been shut down harder than Midgar.
Canon doesn't care about your enjoyment. If it did, Before Crisis, Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus would never have happened.
Starling said:
I'd hardly call them canon over the OG and to truly discuss canon would be to compare sources and figure out the best way to sort out contradictions than to take the Ultimanias as gospel without second-guessing them.
Given that I am probably the only fan to have compiled an extensive list of known continuity conflicts between the Ultimanias and the primary sources -- and given that I have recently shown you that list -- this comment is not only blatantly false and insulting to me, but you embarrass yourself with it. You're better than this.
Starling said:
Your previous posts gave the impression you were at least partly attributing Cloud's memory and identity issues to the mako and Jenova cells ...
Well, you're supposed to be debating with me, not shadow debaters.
Starling said:
I happen to think it's relevant and worth the time to think about. The point's been pretty well made about all the issues that would arise from having Cloud replace the Buster Sword's guard as part of his identity issues, including the writing contrivances that would be necessary for it to happen in the first place as opposed to simply having it be an aesthetic change akin to Cloud modifying his SOLDIER uniform.
The only point that has been made is "It would be bad writing." Which means nothing when Before Crisis, Crisis Core and Dirge were allowed to exist, and made by these same people.
The "he did it before Tifa found him" thing is also a line of reasoning that you have been pushing, not something I proposed:
I simply responded to your claim that it was problematic. I pointed out that it isn't, said it could have been done for the identity reason either before Tifa found him or after, and agreed that it could have simply been done as part of his "cutting out his own path" thing.
I never made a proposal for when or why he did it until after you had already decided when and why. That has been your strawman to tear down, not some pet theory of mine.
Starling said:
Are we not discussing the in-universe viability of this and whether or not it makes sense from a storytelling perspective?
No, we are not. Again, see Before Crisis, Crisis Core or Dirge. Canon doesn't care about enjoyment or whether "it makes sense from a storytelling perspective."
I could include a lot more than that (like FFX-2.5 ~Cost of Eternity~, FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns), but I'm trying to keep this pared down to just the Compilation in making this point.
Starling said:
I've also already brought up the issue with using the mental instability of a character as a convenient excuse to ignore any issue pertaining to their actions and reasoning without accounting for underlying factors in their behaviour.
Whether you like it or think it's good writing is separate from whether it's plausible. It's already been demonstrated that the guy's behavior went beyond instability.
Starling said:
Whether or not Nomura decides to fly in the face of everything said here is something to be dealt with when we see for ourselves what direction the remake ends up going and shouldn't render reasoning about whether or not it makes sense in-universe and from a storytelling perspective irrelevant.
Seriously, you have to leave the question of whether it's good writing at the door. You can call out something as being bad writing without utilizing that as a (flawed) qualification for its viability, like I did when talking about CC's ending here.
Starling said:
You think bad storytelling is cool enough to justify just because Nomura comes up with out of nowhere plotpoints?
Not only is this a non sequitur (seriously, how would "because Nomura comes up with out of nowhere plotpoints" make something cool?), it doesn't sound remotely like what I said.
Aesthetic preference. The details on the CBS are nice but there's something about the OBS guard that's nice in a different way than the design of the CBS one. I don't really mind whether or not the CBS guard is hiding underneath as long as bad writing isn't involved in its presence. It's definitely nice to see the OG guard after so long.
But would Tifa really do that? Her role in Cloud's issues is that she didn't take action when she had the chance, didn't say anything about the discrepancies she noticed rather than actively hiding them. Tifa hiding the guard would only be slightly less flimsy than Cloud doing it.
Almost something we can agree on here too. Whether Cloud doing it is more flimsy or less than Tifa doing it (or whether it's flimsy at all) set aside, Tifa doing it to actively hide Cloud's past from him would be to tarnish her character, perhaps irrevocably.
Regarding good writing, see what I told Starling above. And as you know, our concerns about good writing are not Nomura's concerns. Either he has really bad taste or he just doesn't care.
I think it's mostly that he is a style-over-substance kind of guy, honestly. As long as things look cool and there's some dialogue that he could have copied off a teenager's MySpace that sounds deep (even if it means nothing), he's happy with it.
hian said:
I see this discussion as pertaining to both topics. I know perfectly well that the creators of the remake are free to do whatever they want, and that if we were to limit this discussion to what they're likely to do, then the question of what Cloud would reasonably do based on established conventions and trends in the original narrative is not the definite yardstick for divining the future direction of the series -
However, that's not the point I was trying to make here, and as I stated quite clearly, this is an excellent chance to improve the quality of the writing after the damage it took with the introduction of post-original products, which I hope they do.
I'm under no illusion that they will do this however, nor am I making the argument that it's likely to happen. Don't get that twisted.
Knowing that, I would expect you to be more grounded and realistic about all this. Not making issue of whether something is plausible based on notions of (likely to be) unfounded optimism involving a hack developer's sensibilities.
hian said:
Let's make this clear - I don't like Nomura. I never liked Nomura, and my first meeting with him did nothing to improve matters at all.
He's a buffoon. He can make good character designs if upper management curtails his creative freedom to an extent so he doesn't explode all belts and Gackt on everything he draws - but that's about all I can say for the guy.
And yeah, they retconned Cloud's never being in Shinra HQ too, but that was for CC, neccesary. Midgar was the hub of the game, they were giving you a chance to hang out with Aerith and everyone before going to that fateful mission in Nibelheim, putting in an additional scene afterwards of them picking up Cloud at Junon would've been weird.
It was no more necessary than showing Cloud in the HQ before the Modeoheim mission. To be clear, we don't see him before that mission. The mission begins and he's there.
There are probably a thousand ways they could have made that segue, and none required showing Cloud inside the Shin-Ra building.
In any case, is it really a retcon if it was never a reliable claim to begin with? This is the same guy whose subconscious deleted going into his hometown's store when he returned to Nibelheim after all. Want to count him as reliable?
In any case, is it really a retcon if it was never a reliable claim to begin with? This is the same guy whose subconscious deleted going into his hometown's store when he returned to Nibelheim after all. Want to count him as reliable?
Name like a few hundred ways that are more efficient then just Sephiroth saying they are going to Nibelheim and Cloud reacting the background.
As for Modeoheim, Zack gets picked in a helicopter in front of Aerith's church, yeah that isn't something they keep using.
His mind collapsed. That was due to the mako poisoning. Inarguably. His subconscious then used the Jenova cells to (imperfectly) rebuild his consciousness.
It's the combination of the mako poisoning shattering his consciousness along with his subconscious being able to use the power of Jenova to cherrypick memories that made him a mess. It picked the ones that allowed him to be his ideal self (
(caption on screenshot of Ifalna saying "He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the virus...")
イファルナの話によると、ヴィルスを与えられた古代種は心を失い、モンスターと化したという。
(caption on screenshot of Sephiroth saying "Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you")
ティファと会ったクラウドが新たな人格を形成したことについては、竜巻の迷宮でセフィロスが語るとおり。
Jenova's mimicry ability
Jenova possesses a mimicry ability to read the memories and thoughts of others, as well as transform to assume their appearance and voice. Jenova once used this ability to make the acquaintance of the Ancients in order to infect them with a virus, leading to their deaths.
This ability is also present in Jenova's physical matter, so those who carry Jenova cells have it as well, albeit in a more limited form. Shortly before the beginning of the game, when Cloud's mind had collapsed, Tifa ran into him and he immediately "returned" to a seemingly normal state; this was because the Jenova cells inside Cloud read the image of him Tifa had in her memories along with his own ideal vision of himself, forming a new personality.
(caption on screenshot of Ifalna saying "He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the virus...")
According to Ifalna, the Ancients given the virus lost their minds and turned into monsters.
(caption on screenshot of Sephiroth saying "Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you")
Cloud forming a new personality when he met Tifa is spoken of by Sephiroth in the Whirlwind Maze.
----
It says "shortly before the game". It is canon that Zack had been on the road with mako-poisoned Cloud for about a year before he died. And we have always known that Cloud scratched messages on the glass of his mako testtube to communicate with Zack. Hence the addiction translation, I suppose. The story does not support it all being the mako treatment and nothing else.
In any case, is it really a retcon if it was never a reliable claim to begin with? This is the same guy whose subconscious deleted going into his hometown's store when he returned to Nibelheim after all. Want to count him as reliable?
What exactly are you taking issue with? Tifa ran into him "shortly before the game," just like it says (well, it actually says "shortly before the beginning of the story," but the way I did it sounds more natural in English, I think).
Minato said:
And we have always known that Cloud scratched messages on the glass of his mako testtube to communicate with Zack. Hence the addiction translation, I suppose. The story does not support it all being the mako treatment and nothing else.
And yet the description of mako poisoning fits the state we see Cloud in during that time, as does his condition the second time he got mako poisoning.
Honestly, I probably shouldn't have responded to this last point, as I'm confused as to what you mean.
Just read it now, the Ultimania entry you posted, in fact does give a reason why Cloud choose not to recall that memory, just like the other memories he din't recall (aside from the Midgar HQ thing). That hardly supports the "Cloud's just crazy, he can do anything and it'll make sense." argument.
Cloud didn't have to be there at all. Or it could have been the same scene, only in Junon. Or a lot of other things could have been done.
Again, PSP game, Aerith, Midgar being the hub of the game that are you getting one last chance to do everything you can in before going to Nibelheim. And showing Cloud and Zack being friends rather then just having him join Sephiroth and Zack's party on the way offscreen is preferable. I'd still rather Cloud was stationed in Junon or something like that but I get why they put him in Midgar, it would disrupt the flow of the story just to explain something away. This is not that. Just the opposite.
What exactly are you taking issue with? Tifa ran into him "shortly before the game," just like it says (well, it actually says "shortly before the beginning of the story," but the way I did it sounds more natural in English, I think).
The his mind shattering shortly before the beginning of the story part meaning because of the Mako poisoning he sustained in Nibelheim. In my eyes he was in a comatose state but his mind intact while on the road with Zack. I feel Crisis Core's ending supports that, showing Cloud recovering tragically just as Zack dies. His mind shattered after that. The Jenova cells then grabbed Tifa's memories and Cloud used the story Zack told him, which did not include Zack's visit to the store. Rather then him being shattered all along.
Minato said:
And yet the description of mako poisoning fits the state we see Cloud in during that time, as does his condition the second time he got mako poisoning.
Honestly, I probably shouldn't have responded to this last point, as I'm confused as to what you mean.
Only someone with the strong sense of self of a SOLDIER can withstand Mako treatment. He achieved that artificially through the fake persona he constructed from Zack's story and Tifa's memories, until Sephiroth brought down the truth at the Northern crater. He was able to achieve that naturally with the help of Tifa in Mideel (and came close with Zack's help in Crisis Core). No version of Cloud could have been strutting around Midgar, reviewing his appearance, deciding the gold hilt of Buster Sword would have to go to keep his secrets safe and then making those changes before he met Tifa. After he met Tifa, he wouldn't have been able to pick Zack out of line-up so he doesn't care.
Just read it now, the Ultimania entry you posted, in fact does give a reason why Cloud choose not to recall that memory, just like the other memories he din't recall (aside from the Midgar HQ thing). That hardly supports the "Cloud's just crazy, he can do anything and it'll make sense." argument.
It fully supports it. Anything the subconscious of this hopelessly insecure young man with a massive inferiority complex -- and now with a fragile psyche hanging by a thread -- perceived as a threat to him would be revised.
His subconscious didn't just stop once he was ambulatory again. It was working around the clock until Sephiroth shattered his illusion, revising things as he tried to recall them and even deleting new memories wholesale (e.g. when he passes out in the Honey Bee Inn).
Dude was fucking nuts. I'm not sure what's so unbelievable about him doing things that are fucking nuts based on a flimsy, paranoid justification -- he's doing it from the moment we meet him!
Minato said:
Again, PSP game, Aerith, Midgar being the hub of the game that are you getting one last chance to do everything you can in before going to Nibelheim. And showing Cloud and Zack being friends rather then just having him join Sephiroth and Zack's party on the way offscreen is preferable. I'd still rather Cloud was stationed in Junon or something like that but I get why they put him in Midgar, it would disrupt the flow of the story just to explain something away. This is not that. Just the opposite.
The point I'm making is that the story told could have been one such that there was no interruption. Cloud didn't even have to be seen; Zack could have reacted "Cloud's hometown?" and achieved the same result. It could have been a phone call between he and Zack.
More things than I care to imagine could have been done. There was no necessity here.
And really, if we're going to discuss retcons from Crisis Core, this seems like the least notable potential retcon we could possibly concern ourselves with. =P
Minato said:
The his mind shattering shortly before the beginning of the story part meaning because of the Mako poisoning he sustained in Nibelheim.
"Shortly before the game began" modifies "Tifa ran into him," not "when Cloud's mind had collapsed."
The thing it's saying happened "shortly before the game began" is Tifa running into him, not the moment his mind shattered. The timing of their reunion was while he was in a state of mental collapse. That's being referenced because it's talking about why he recovered.
EDIT: I've adjusted the wording to be more clear. Sorry for the confusion.
Minato said:
No version of Cloud could have been strutting around Midgar, reviewing his appearance, deciding the gold hilt of Buster Sword would have to go to keep his secrets safe and then making those changes before he met Tifa.
It's fortunate then that no one has been championing that, even when discussion of the possibility of it happening before Tifa found him has taken place.
You guys simply randomly decided a while back that if this thing happened, it was done at that time and for the identity reason, and have been strawmanning this discussion to death with it ever since.
Really, go back and read through the thread. The suggestion didn't come from me. As near as I can tell, it started with this post from Starling (I know she references it having been brought up earlier, but, really, read through the thread -- this was the first time it came up). I responded that it wouldn't be hard to believe from this chucklefuck, and the next thing you know, this has been "my" theory all along and you're offering a suggestion that makes it at least plausible to you guys in the form of "Like the modifications he made to his uniform, it's just a thing to to set him apart from Shinra's SOLDIER" -- which I've agreed would be the most simple approach to take.
Again, I never suggested a when or why until you guys decided I had. You've basically been arguing against your own proposal.
Just read it now, the Ultimania entry you posted, in fact does give a reason why Cloud choose not to recall that memory, just like the other memories he din't recall (aside from the Midgar HQ thing). That hardly supports the "Cloud's just crazy, he can do anything and it'll make sense." argument.
It fully supports it. Anything the subconscious of this hopelessly insecure young man with a massive inferiority complex -- and now with a fragile psyche hanging by a thread -- perceived as a threat to him would be revised.
His subconscious didn't just stop once he was ambulatory again. It was working around the clock until Sephiroth shattered his illusion, revising things as he tried to recall them and even deleting new memories wholesale (e.g. when he passes out in the Honey Bee Inn).
If the subconcious was utterly in control of the body, it's not really a subconcious anymore is it. Why did ever release Cloud's concious at all? Surely it's more effective to just keep going.
Tres said:
Dude was fucking nuts. I'm not sure what's so unbelievable about him doing things that are fucking nuts based on a flimsy, paranoid justification -- he's doing it from the moment we meet him!
What? He's a merc/Shinra deserter working a job for an anti-Shinra group. Not nuts at all. Zack and Cloud go to Midgar for Zack's girlfriend, Cloud makes it as far as the trainstation, he meets up with Tifa, he goes to work for AVALANCHE. Crazy things are happening inside his head, but there's no reason to think he's actively doing crazy things.
Tres said:
The point I'm making is that the story told could have been one such that there was no interruption. Cloud didn't even have to be seen; Zack could have reacted "Cloud's hometown?" and achieved the same result. It could have been a phone call between he and Zack.
More things than I care to imagine could have been done. There was no necessity here.
And really, if we're going to discuss retcons from Crisis Core, this seems like the least notable potential retcon we could possibly concern ourselves with. =P
I know it's not neccesity, but it's obvious why it was massively preferable. And yeah, Crisis Core has other retcons, there was no neccesity to creating Genesis, Angeal, Cissnei, Hollander either, but I can admit it really helped flesh out Zack's story. Cloud's story doesn't need more meat to it.
Tres said:
It's fortunate then that no one has been championing that, even when discussion of the possibility of it happening before Tifa found him has taken place.
You guys simply randomly decided a while back that if this thing happened, it was done at that time and for the identity reason, and have been strawmanning this discussion to death with it ever since.
Really, go back and read through the thread. The suggestion didn't come from me. As near as I can tell, it started with this post from Starling (I know she references it having been brought up earlier, but, really, read through the thread -- this was the first time it came up). I responded that it wouldn't be hard to believe from this chucklefuck, and the next thing you know, this has been "my" theory all along and you're offering a suggestion that makes it at least plausible to you guys in the form of "Like the modifications he made to his uniform, it's just a thing to to set him apart from Shinra's SOLDIER" -- which I've agreed would be the most simple approach to take.
Again, I never suggested a when or why until you guys decided I had. You've basically been arguing against your own proposal.
I never said you started the argument. Though you were the one that brought up the "when" part as you put it, that we don't how long it was between the moment and the cliff and meeting with Tifa and also how long between initially meeting Tifa and the Bombing to at least suggest that it was possible during either of those times over here. I don't think it's really possible either before or after. I address before more thoroughly because I feel after he met Tifa he had reached the state of mind we see him during the game, completely unresponsive to the mention of Zack.
If the subconcious was utterly in control of the body, it's not really a subconcious anymore is it. Why did ever release Cloud's concious at all? Surely it's more effective to just keep going.
That's true, and, really, it's a question that could be asked anyway given how things ended up -- but if I had to take a guess, maybe it's due to the conflicting influences at work. Cloud's been described as existing of at least three distinct personalities at that time: the original Cloud; the intermix of the original and Zack that was "born" when Tifa found him; and "Cloud, the Sephiroth copy."
Minato said:
What? He's a merc/Shinra deserter working a job for an anti-Shinra group. Not nuts at all. Zack and Cloud go to Midgar for Zack's girlfriend, Cloud makes it as far as the trainstation, he meets up with Tifa, he goes to work for AVALANCHE. Crazy things are happening inside his head, but there's no reason to think he's actively doing crazy things.
Sure, for the story they were telling, it was a tidy narrative shortcut. I just don't think it necessarily offered more than going the "Hey, that's Cloud's hometown" route would have -- everything would still be the same, including showing the friendship between he and Zack.
What I personally would like to have seen looking back at it is Zack making the suggestion, "Hey, I know someone from there. We should put him on this mission."
What a missed opportunity. It wouldn't ever have to be commented on thereafter (in fact, it would be better if Cloud didn't even know about it), but what an extra layer that would have added to everything that comes after.
I don't know, maybe you'll feel that risks adding more meat to Cloud's story, but I was thinking it would just add to Zack's so long as Cloud didn't know about it.
Minato said:
I never said you started the argument. Though you were the one that brought up the "when" part as you put it, that we don't how long it was between the moment and the cliff and meeting with Tifa and also how long between initially meeting Tifa and the Bombing to at least suggest that it was possible during either of those times over here.
Well, in fairness, that was after Starling's post, so I was only responding to the proposal. I wasn't attached to it or anything, as you noted since I mentioned that other timeframe as well.
Minato said:
I don't think it's really possible either before or after. I address before more thoroughly because I feel after he met Tifa he had reached the state of mind we see him during the game, completely unresponsive to the mention of Zack.
Fair enough. I'm inclined to agree with your assessment of Cloud's state of mind after Tifa found him, honestly. And that is certainly part of why it strikes all of us as more simple that if this modification took place, it be that it was simply part of the "ex-SOLDIER on his own" look he was going for.
For myself, it wouldn't have any impact if it were at one of those other times, though. To actually register on my radar as out of place at this point, Cloud would have had to do something so outlandish and beyond the pale that I honestly can't think of an example. It's hard to get worse than what he did with Zack's memory, especially after the depiction in the ending of Crisis Core.
Maybe I just see him as more screwed up than you do?
I think he's pretty messed up, but it's all for Tifa's sake. To impress her with SOLDIERyness. If she's already seen the Zack's Buster Sword, Cloud's subconcious isn't gonna help him fool anyone else.
