AC/CC >> Remake Buster Sword Changes

Starling

Pro Adventurer
So suppose the compilation Buster Sword is really hiding under there. Would the reveal have to be that dramatic? I'd rather it was something more subtle like the handle being deliberately removed after Cloud comes back, with the reveal being more for the players than the characters. Executing it might have a different tone but the description of the handle breaking specifically when Cloud's starting to fall apart sounds a bit corny to me, on top of the already mentioned issue that Cloud would've had to covered the handle and then forgotten about doing that before Tifa finds him.

Also:
I'm pretty sure in AC he put it into the ground by Junon - or did he just go an pick it up from and take it back to Midgar?

latest


The cliff is overlooking Midgar, not Junon. I have no idea where you got that idea.
 
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micknutson9

Pro Adventurer
I'm pretty sure in AC he put it into the ground by Junon - or did he just go an pick it up from and take it back to Midgar?

No... The Junon Cannon was moved to Midgar so it could penetrate Sephiroth's magical barrier. When Diamond WEAPON attacked, Rufus already gave the order to fire and not only did it penetrate the WEAPON, but it penetrated the barrier as well. But... As we all know... Diamond's attack also hit home, resulting in a wheelchair bound Rufus Shinra afflicted w/ Geostigma and a different mindset than before. And also... In the beginning of the movie, Cloud was overlooking not only Midgar, but the Midgar Wastelands too.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Executing it might have a different tone but the description of the handle breaking specifically when Cloud's starting to fall apart sounds a bit corny to me, on top of the already mentioned issue that Cloud would've had to covered the handle and then forgotten about doing that before Tifa finds him.
Given everything else Cloud forgot and had to make up stuff to cover for, is this really that odd?
 

Roger

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AKA
Minato
So suppose the compilation Buster Sword is really hiding under there. Would the reveal have to be that dramatic? I'd rather it was something more subtle like the handle being deliberately removed after Cloud comes back, with the reveal being more for the players than the characters. Executing it might have a different tone but the description of the handle breaking specifically when Cloud's starting to fall apart sounds a bit corny to me, on top of the already mentioned issue that Cloud would've had to covered the handle and then forgotten about doing that before Tifa finds him.

I don't think there needs to be "reveal", or that he's actively hiding that it used to belong to Zack from everyone, including himself, that'd really raise unneccesary questions. Like the modifications he made to his uniform, it's just a thing to to set him apart from Shinra's SOLDIER. He'd be wearing a normal SOLDIER uniform as well as wielding the CBS in the Nibelheim flashback.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
Twilight Mexican said:
Given everything else Cloud forgot and had to make up stuff to cover for, is this really that odd?

Well you have to draw the line somewhere. Unless Cloud somehow managed to be ok for a while before going back to near catatonic at the train station where Tifa found him, she'd have to know about it. It's also unnecessary for the guard to have anything to do with Cloud's memories of Zack. I've already gone at length about how Cloud's memory issues are a case of trauma induced amnesia and dissociation from his part in what happened in Nibelheim, the ensuing years of experimentation and mako poisoning as well as Zack's death. What he forgot were the traumatic memories and things that conflicted with what he'd thought happened due to the dissociation. He doesn't just forget random stuff so Sephiroth can better manipulate him and I'd rather the memory issues don't become a convenient excuse for stuff like this to take place.

Poe Dameron said:
I don't think there needs to be "reveal", or that he's actively hiding that it used to belong to Zack from everyone, including himself, that'd really raise unneccesary questions. Like the modifications he made to his uniform, it's just a thing to to set him apart from Shinra's SOLDIER. He'd be wearing a normal SOLDIER uniform as well as wielding the CBS in the Nibelheim flashback.

That's pretty much how I'd rather have it. In the case I brought up, the reveal would be the player finding out that the CBS guard is under the RBS one, even though that detail is nothing important to the characters. Removing the RBS guard would simply be out of respect for Zack or something without being some hidden detail no one knew about. In that case, I guess the player would find out in the flashback rather than later on. Otherwise the remake simply combined the two designs but that's not what my post was about.
 

hian

Purist
The cliff is overlooking Midgar, not Junon. I have no idea where you got that idea.

Forgot the transportation of Sister Ray, misremembered - also added to the fact that this scene is geographically-speaking inconsistent with the original.

final-fantasy-vii-advent-children-20041209065751558.jpg

Why is there a large body of water in front of Midgar?
Sister Ray also seems to be aimed towards a mountain range...
Well, I've never tried to make sense of AC or anything else of the compilation in either case =P
 

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
Twilight Mexican said:
Given everything else Cloud forgot and had to make up stuff to cover for, is this really that odd?

Well you have to draw the line somewhere. Unless Cloud somehow managed to be ok for a while before going back to near catatonic at the train station where Tifa found him, she'd have to know about it.
You've seen the ending of Crisis Core. Cloud was (unwisely from a writing viewpoint, in my opinion) pretty coherent when he first left Zack's body. We also don't know quite how long it was between that moment and when Tifa found him at the train station, nor how long it was between Tifa finding him and the first bombing mission. We only know Zack died at the end of September and the first reactor raid was on 12/9.

Since Cloud didn't get over the mako poisoning until Tifa found him, it was still working him over for however long that was while the Jenova cells within him were working to fill in the gaps the mako poisoning was leaving in his mind.

Again, given everything else his mind did to save itself and form an identity that would allow him to stay alive, is it really that hard to believe it might take steps to cover up Zack's sword so he might avoid being reminded who he was? Especially after the Jenova cells read Tifa's mind?

If the sword hadn't already been altered by the time Cloud's Jenova cells scanned Tifa's mind at the train station, it's not difficult at all to imagine that the self-preservation mission his mind was on would have had the sword altered soon after that in case she brought up Zack.

As for her being aware that the weapon was altered, well, Tifa knew a lot of things were off about Cloud in the original game, but she kept quiet (it was a major plot point). This could be yet one more added to the expanding narrative we have to look forward to.

Besides, knowing he altered the weapon (just like he apparently did with the pauldron on his left shoulder) might he puzzling, but it wouldn't necessarily have clued her in that this was Zack's sword. Even if she recognized it, don't forget that she didn't know Cloud was there in Nibelheim with Zack. She would have no reason to think this was that same sword.

It's also unlikely that she would have even known enough about SOLDIER to know Zack was carrying a one-of-a-kind weapon when she met him rather than a standard-issue SOLDIER sword.

Starling said:
It's also unnecessary for the guard to have anything to do with Cloud's memories of Zack. I've already gone at length about how Cloud's memory issues are a case of trauma induced amnesia and dissociation from his part in what happened in Nibelheim, the ensuing years of experimentation and mako poisoning as well as Zack's death. What he forgot were the traumatic memories and things that conflicted with what he'd thought happened due to the dissociation. He doesn't just forget random stuff so Sephiroth can better manipulate him and I'd rather the memory issues don't become a convenient excuse for stuff like this to take place.
He forgot tons of little, non-traumatic things and remembered plenty of other stuff that actually was traumatic (his mother being murdered, Nibelheim burning, Tifa being injured).

The memories that were buried got buried because his mind was rebuilding itself as Cloud's ideal version of himself. Yes, he faced a lot of trauma, but it was the mako poisoning and the needs of his mind's mission of self-preservation that made the cuts. The memories of Zack had to go because they were a threat to Cloud's new identity, and, therefore, his self-preservation.

The cliff is overlooking Midgar, not Junon. I have no idea where you got that idea.

Forgot the transportation of Sister Ray, misremembered - also added to the fact that this scene is geographically-speaking inconsistent with the original.
Very much so. There's no making sense of the arrangement of mountains between Zack's original death scene and the spot where his grave marker was placed in the Compilation.
 
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Roger

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AKA
Minato
You've seen the ending of Crisis Core. Cloud was (unwisely from a writing viewpoint, in my opinion) pretty coherent when he first left Zack's body.

Coherent and still remembering Zack. That has nothing to do with the brandnew phase in his psychosis that we are adding at the moment.
We also don't know quite how long it was between that moment and when Tifa found him at the train station, nor how long it was between Tifa finding him and the first bombing mission. We only know Zack died at the end of September and the first reactor raid was on 12/9.

Since Cloud didn't get over the mako poisoning until Tifa found him, it was still working him over for however long that was while the Jenova cells within him were working to fill in the gaps the mako poisoning was leaving in his mind.

Again, given everything else his mind did to save itself and form an identity that would allow him to stay alive, is it really that hard to believe it might take steps to cover up Zack's sword so he might avoid being reminded who he was? Especially after the Jenova cells read Tifa's mind?

Identify Zack's sword as the biggest threat to unmasking his idenity, take control of his body, visit a workshop and make modifications and then erase those memories after doing so and then go back to being catatonic? Yes, that is hard to believe and completely on a different level then anything else his mind has done. All he's done so far is misremember stuff.

He forgot tons of little, non-traumatic things and remembered plenty of other stuff that actually was traumatic (his mother being murdered, Nibelheim burning, Tifa being injured).

Like what?

The memories that were buried got buried because his mind was rebuilding itself as Cloud's ideal version of himself. Yes, he faced a lot of trauma, but it was the mako poisoning and the needs of his mind's mission of self-preservation that made the cuts. The memories of Zack had to go because they were a threat to Cloud's new identity, and, therefore, his self-preservation.

He didn't forget Zack, he replaced Zack. What he forgot were his own memories of his various failings. What the Buster Sword looked like in no way fits into that pattern.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
Who knows how much SE is willing to change, but I'd prefer if Cloud's uniform and sword modifications were done inside 7th Heaven, before the Bombing Mission, leaving Cloud's CC-ending and Kalm flashback states as is (with expanding on it, of course).
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
You've seen the ending of Crisis Core. Cloud was (unwisely from a writing viewpoint, in my opinion) pretty coherent when he first left Zack's body.

Coherent and still remembering Zack. That has nothing to do with the brandnew phase in his psychosis that we are adding at the moment.
It may have everything to do with it since some time after that he's incoherent and not remembering Zack.

Minato said:
The Twilight Mexican said:
We also don't know quite how long it was between that moment and when Tifa found him at the train station, nor how long it was between Tifa finding him and the first bombing mission. We only know Zack died at the end of September and the first reactor raid was on 12/9.

Since Cloud didn't get over the mako poisoning until Tifa found him, it was still working him over for however long that was while the Jenova cells within him were working to fill in the gaps the mako poisoning was leaving in his mind.

Again, given everything else his mind did to save itself and form an identity that would allow him to stay alive, is it really that hard to believe it might take steps to cover up Zack's sword so he might avoid being reminded who he was? Especially after the Jenova cells read Tifa's mind?
Identify Zack's sword as the biggest threat to unmasking his idenity, take control of his body, visit a workshop and make modifications and then erase those memories after doing so and then go back to being catatonic? Yes, that is hard to believe and completely on a different level then anything else his mind has done. All he's done so far is misremember stuff.
He readily erased all kinds of memories -- even of things as mundane as walking across the wasteland outside Midgar. Which also wasn't that long before.

We're talking about a guy who replaced his dead best friend with himself in his memories. After that, literally nothing he does should come as hard to believe.

Minato said:
The Twilight Mexican said:
He forgot tons of little, non-traumatic things and remembered plenty of other stuff that actually was traumatic (his mother being murdered, Nibelheim burning, Tifa being injured).

Like what?
Like having ever been inside the Shin-Ra building (in the original game, he claimed that he had never been inside; we've seen him there more than once throughout the Compilation) or having dinner with Zack. These things weren't erased because they were traumatic -- they were erased because the context would challenge his new identity.

Hell, even Zack's very existence had to go. Cloud could have kept it as simple and clean as switching places in his memories; Zack as the grunt, himself as the SOLDIER. Making Zack vanish entirely was more elaborate an illusion than doing a switcheroo would have been.

Minato said:
He didn't forget Zack, he replaced Zack. What he forgot were his own memories of his various failings. What the Buster Sword looked like in no way fits into that pattern.
Ask me, it fits plausibly into the pattern of a guy who was totally in SOLDIER -- but says he can't remember when he joined. Who was totally in SOLDIER -- but has never been on the SOLDIER level inside the Shin-Ra building, or even inside the building at all. Who was totally in SOLDIER -- but knows less about the place than Barret when, in all reality, Cloud would actually know more thanks to having worked there:

Barret: "Hey, you oughta know this building well."

Cloud: "...Not really, now that I think about it. This's the first time I've ever been to the Headquarters."

Barret: "I heard about this place before. Every floor above the 60th is special and not easy to get to even for employees."

I really can't believe we're debating over whether someone as messed up as Cloud doing something insane (and far less insane than a lot of other stuff he said and did) is believable. Like I said, the false identity he created was held up by more elaborate lies than it had to be -- and had far more holes in it as a result than it needed to have.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
It's not unbelievable. It makes sense and I doubt anyone would question it if it was official in the Remake. However, I think the idea is that at the moment, it is somewhat easier to go with Cloud's CC ending state → Cloud's train station state than with Cloud's CC ending state → Cloud well enough to apply sword modifications → Cloud's train station state.

Dat off-topic doe.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I really can't believe we're debating over whether someone as messed up as Cloud doing something insane (and far less insane than a lot of other stuff he said and did) is believable. Like I said, the false identity he created was held up by more elaborate lies than it had to be -- and had far more holes in it as a result than it needed to have.

But we aren't talking about a yet another unexplained hole in the story. We are talking about a new period in his life where travelled around forging evidence to cover up said holes. Why DIDN'T that Cloud just write out a fictional conversation for his mom and him to have had five years ago. Or killed Johnny for being too close to the truth. Or just left Midgar cause he has nothing to do there. He didn't collapse while getting to Aerith or anything and meeting Tifa had nothing to do with the illusion he crafted for himself after all.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Perhaps he would have filled in those holes if he hadn't met Tifa. Perhaps his strong feelings for her were fighting their way to the surface and that's why there are so many holes.

/cracktheory
 

Roger

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AKA
Minato
Perhaps he would have filled in those holes if he hadn't met Tifa. Perhaps his strong feelings for her were fighting their way to the surface and that's why there are so many holes.

/cracktheory

It's possible, but I don't like the story just being completely backwards now. He read Tifa's mind, he wanted to impress Tifa, so he lied. And then arranged things in his head (empathesis on in his head) to support that lie.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
To be fair, Sephiroth did say in the original game that Jenova had read Tifa's mind in constructing Cloud's false identity. I know there was doubt about whether it was one of the half-truths or outright lies he had told, but it was in there long before the Ultimania Omega confirmed it.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
To be fair, Sephiroth did say in the original game that Jenova had read Tifa's mind in constructing Cloud's false identity. I know there was doubt about whether it was one of the half-truths or outright lies he had told, but it was in there long before the Ultimania Omega confirmed it.

Yeah and that's the truth that they should stick too. He has no motive to take on the persona before meeting Tifa. She's the one he wants to impress by becoming a SOLDIER First Class. And if he's okay in the head initially and just lying to her, while thinking in the back of his head he needs to alter the Buster Sword to hide Zack's existence then why would he ever need to actually forget about it all in the first place?

The whole Shinra HQ in Midgar thing is a needless overcomplicating retcon created by Crisis Core but no matter how random his memory alterations are, it still fits the pattern that HE needs to believe this new persona of himself to function. If he was going around Midgar conciously covering up evidence then that proves he doesn't.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
Keep in mind I'm not saying this was done consciously or that anything he did to hide his past was deliberate. There's a part of him that knows the whole truth (the voice that keeps trying to get him to think about the past and ask Tifa questions about things), but that's hidden from the guy on the surface.
 

hian

Purist
I do think that there really is quite a big difference between Cloud being able to walk into Midgar in the state that he is in, and being in a state of clarity necessary to modify his sword.

Comparing it just to something as mundane as being really really drunk - I can walk home at night drunk to the point that I can't walk straight, my head all F'ed up and not being able to recall most of that walk the next morning except in incoherent flashes - however, I would not be able to do much meaningful stuff requiring fine body motor skills - such as, I don't know, refitting the guard on a sword?

Also, as people here pointed out - If Cloud didn't actually commit to his new persona until he bumped into Tifa he wouldn't have any reason to do this anyway prior to that.
In fact, would he have any reason to at all in either case? I mean, if he can replace Zack, and wear a Soldier uniform without the cognitive dissonance growing strong enough to break his illusion, why really should the guard on the sword matter all that much?

A much more reasonable explanation for the change would simply be Cloud making a statement - he's an ex-soldier now, and so he did the modifications to his armor and sword to illustrate the fact that he's no longer with Shinra - end of story.

I could easily accept that. Then perhaps, if they really want to make a point out of the reveal of the old guard, Sephiroth could easily just say or imply that the real reason Cloud went out of his way to do this, was through the influence of Jenova cells to further distance Cloud from the truth of his background.

Just write it so that when Tifa finds Cloud he has the CBS, and then in the period before the attack on the first reactor, Cloud refits it, perhaps after Barret tells him he looks too much like a Shinra Soldier and that he should do something about his gear to "show his new colors" or whatever.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
I completely agree that it's the easier route for Cloud to have had this done after Tifa found him. And like I mentioned in one of my other posts above, I don't think it had to have been done before she found him without compromising everything since there's little reason to think she would know Zack's sword was unique -- especially since she didn't know Cloud was in Nibelheim when she met Zack.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
So does that mean you don't think Cloud forgot about possible changes he's made to the Buster Sword? Because he really wouldn't have a good reason to do it and shoehorning that into the remake wouldn't really do any good. If they go with the CBS getting modified to look like the RBS then it'd make the most sense for it to simply be done with the modifications he made to the SOLDIER uniform rather than have it be something he did to cover up Zack's existence.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
I still wouldn't find it at all odd or out of place for him to have forgotten, but, sure, it's easier if he did it just to "carve out his own path."
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
Like I said, my main objection about Cloud covering up the CBS is that it'd be bad writing and an unnecessary retcon that wouldn't really accomplish anything besides creating inconsistencies, as well as the recurring notion that Cloud's memory issues mean pretty much anything requiring that he forgets or misremembers something is possible without regard for how and why those problems arose and whether or not that fits with the pattern, especially since Cloud's among the more realistic depictions of this kind of thing. I still feel that the topic of Cloud's psychological issues still needs to be addressed so that's mainly what this post is about.

Since mental health is an important element of our well-being, the human brain has a bunch of coping mechanisms to deal with stress and continue functioning through trying circumstances. The problem is that some of those coping mechanisms aim to relieve stress in the short term even if it means causing bigger problems in the long term, such as avoidance or dissociation. When stress reaches a point that overwhelms someone's capacity to cope, it leads to psychological trauma. Traumatic events typically involve helplessness, fear, inability to do anything about the situation you're in and so on. It's why you can see stuff like PTSD not only in people who've lived through war but also natural disasters and even cases of abuse or assault. Of course, things that are perceived as relatively minor causes of stress can also lead to issues over prolonged periods of time such as an overworked person burning out or having a nervous breakdown.
2000px-Maslow's_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png
does a good job illustrating the needs that have to be met to maintain a person's physical and mental well-being, accounting for more than the immediate survival necessities, with the stuff that's not immediately vital often causing the person stress when they are deprived of it for too long.

In terms of maladaptive coping mechanisms pertaining to memory, traumatic memories tend to get repressed, possibly because there's just too much to deal with all at once. When a memory is repressed, it still exists in the person's subconscious even though they can't consciously recall it. A repressed memory can either come back on its own after a while or from encountering something relevant to the memory such as a particular event or even just a smell.

Amnesia that occurs for psychological reasons such as trauma tend to involve repressed memories rather than actual loss of the memory or means of remembering it like with amnesia resulting for physiological or physical reasons such as alcohol temporarily disabling the brain's ability to create new memories or brain damage from physical trauma.

In relation to trauma, dissociation seeks to treat the traumatic experiences as if they didn't really happen to the person who experienced them or in a way that lessens the trauma involved, as seen with someone recounting a traumatic experience as if they were observing it rather than living it. Other aspects of dissociation include compartmentalizing thoughts, emotions etc in order to deal with conflicting thoughts or deal with them separately, as well as emotional numbing.

The type of amnesia relevant to this discussion is psychogenic amnesia, which is also called dissociative amnesia. It's characterized by loss of memory pertaining to traumatic events and/or aspects of someone's personal identity, which can last from hours to years. Along with repressed memories, this form of amnesia can also include what is referred to as a dissociative fugue, which entails reversible amnesia pertaining to personal identity, unplanned travel and at times establishing a new identity for its duration, which often precedes a period of stress that the person may not remember. People who experience a dissociative fugue generally recover their memories just fine, though they usually don't remember their period of amnesia. This kind of thing can be caused by other conditions so it's only diagnosed as a dissociative fugue if those factors are absent.

Another dissociative disorder worth mentioning is dissociative identity disorder, formerly called multiple personality disorder. There's still a lot of controversy around it but it's generally agreed that criteria includes at least 2 distinct personalities that influence behaviour and have differing memories. DID has been linked to trauma and has been observed to be present alongside other disorders such as PTSD and depression. It's not an easy disorder to diagnose, especially since not a lot of in-depth studies seem to have been made and it's among the disorders people try to fake. From what I found on the subject, it seems that DID can result as a form of overcompensation when incapable of coping with a particular situation, seeing as the additional personality states tend to fill a role the main one can't while also compartmentalizing memories and emotions.

PTSD tends to come up whenever trauma is discussed as pertaining to fictional characters so I'll bring it up here too. PTSD is classified as an anxiety disorder and is primarily associated with the kind of trauma sustained in military combat or natural disasters. The symptoms reflect its nature as an anxiety disorder by largely consisting of things like difficulty sleeping, hyper-vigilance, irritability, re-experiencing trauma in the present through flashbacks and nightmares, etc. The symptoms are generally attributed to acute stress disorder unless they persist for over a month.

Something that people may not know is that there is a similar disorder known as complex post-traumatic stress disorder (CPTSD), which accounts for symptoms seen in prolonged periods of trauma involving someone else being in control of the situation and the affected individual having no viable means of escape, such as child abuse, hostage situations, imprisonment and so on that aren't accounted for in typical cases of PTSD. The symptoms for CPTSD are overall more dissociative and include alterations in sense of self, feelings of guilt, shame, helplessness and seeking isolation. Either way, both have a high chance of being accompanied by depression.


To conclude this section, I'd like to make it clear that I am not a psychologist and even if I was qualified to diagnose disorders, fiction isn't constrained to the limitations of reality and so won't necessarily line up perfectly, especially when things not occurring in real life are involved. These are largely abridged explanations of various elements of psychology as pertaining to this discussion and should hopefully give some insight on the subject as well as enough information to research it yourself if you so choose.

When looking at Cloud's behaviour and experiences, it seems that his guilt and self-esteem issues originated from when Tifa got hurt, and he blamed himself for not being strong enough to keep it from happening. From the way it's recounted in the lifestream sequence, his reasoning for blaming himself show's Zack and Aerith's deaths aren't the first time he blamed himself for something he couldn't possibly be at fault for and couldn't be expected to be able to do anything about.

In the CC version of Zack's death, Cloud seemed barely coherent enough to understand what Zack was saying and may have only realized Zack was dying once he was dead. In the OG version of the scene, Cloud seemed to have been coherent enough to remember what the guards said after killing Zack and then have a moment of grief, though this doesn't require him to be in as coherent a state as he was in the later part of the CC scene as he was walking away. Either way, the trip from the cliff to Midgar through the remainder of the wastelands would likely have taken a toll on him, making it reasonable to expect him to have lost some of that coherency when exhaustion caught up to him. I find it more probable that he'd collapsed at the train station shortly after arriving in Midgar and then met Tifa. Otherwise, he'd have to somehow manage to remain in a good enough state to fend for himself in the slums without establishing a new identity until Tifa found him.

Throughout the OG, it can be observed that Cloud doesn't remember Zack and based his identity around him, though not entirely since his OG personality doesn't seem to match up with what's observed of Zack's personality. The voices Cloud hears are a blend of memories and his subconscious attempting to directly communicate with him. From the flashbacks we see, Cloud seems to actually remember things he wasn't present for and can't fully be accounted for through being told about it later, particularly in case of the flashback in reactor 5. Even though he doesn't remember stuff like being a Shinra MP instead of a SOLDIER, he still seems to recall it to some extent as seen with the hints present in the Kalm flashback and his familiarity with the uniform in Junon. He also seems to recall that he hasn't slept in an actual bed since his visit to Nibelheim. When we get to the scene in the whirlwind maze, we see Cloud admit that he's not always sure about who he is but it doesn't matter as long as Tifa believes in him. It's only when Tifa expressed doubt about his identity and he's forced to face all the discrepancies in his memory that he falls apart.

From what's seen of Tifa's flashback of when she found him, Cloud was in a confused state and probably unsure of his identity until he recognized Tifa. We know that his claim to being a mercenary was from something Zack said when figuring out what to do once they got to Midgar. That Cloud was wearing a SOLDIER first class uniform and had the Buster Sword were probably factors in his adopting the persona he did.

When Tifa helps him piece everything together in the Lifestream, he first had to accept that what he remembered wasn't how it actually happened and then confirm to himself that he's the real Cloud by remembering something Tifa didn't before revisiting his memories of the Nibelheim incident to remember how it actually happened. This then allowed him to regain other repressed memories later on such as the flashbacks involving Zack if you revisit the mansion.

Overall, Cloud's issues during the OG boil down to dissociation as a means of distancing himself as much as possible from seeing Sephiroth burn down his hometown, almost dying, spending several years in Hojo's lab and then seeing Zack die, all while maintaining a somewhat functional state of mind. At that point, he had no reason to think he had anything left, probably thinking Tifa was dead until he saw her again. It's rather obvious that Zack's death was the last straw, which is why it was the focus of all the dissociation.

Basically, in order to forget Zack's death, memory of Zack as his friend as well as events surrounding his death had to go too. Replacing Zack with himself left fewer holes in his memory than erasing him completely and was especially viable due to the memory copying. Replacing Zack with himself also made the memory of the Nibelheim incident more bearable as he was remembering it as a SOLDIER first class rather than a Shinra MP that failed to get into SOLDIER and now has to face returning home as a failure, giving him a better self-image to work with and ties into the way he looks and is dressed when Tifa finds him. Even then, Cloud did notice some of the holes in his memory but didn't seem to dare linger on them, such as how his memory of visiting his mom in the Kalm flashback seems to go. Additionally, from the way dissociative amnesia seems to occur in real life, it would seem that the amnesia would occur before the construction of a different identity, even if suppressed memories are partly expressed in said identity.

How far this comparison can be taken without even mentioning Jenova and mako poisoning beyond the mako poisoning's role in Cloud's catatonic state and Jenova cells providing the memories Cloud shouldn't have is why I so strongly disagree with the notion that they're the main cause of Cloud's issues, along with how I don't see Sephiroth getting involved until he kills President Shinra and even then his psychological manipulation is pretty mundane besides controlling Cloud's body and setting up an illusory recreation of Nibelheim. With how Cloud seemed to be able to throw off Sephiroth's attempt to make him kill Aerith and the lengths he went to break his mind, it seemed like Sephiroth was limited in how he could manipulate Cloud and couldn't really do much after Cloud sorted out his memory and identity issues.

Because of this, I find it most likely that the Jenova cells only copied memories, acting on self-preservation in response to the trauma Cloud sustained and the need to reestablish a functional mental state rather than as an attempt to manipulate Cloud. It certainly wouldn't be the only time Jenova cells behaved symbiotically with their host.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
As interesting an analysis as that is (and it is damn interesting! It's really similar to an analysis of Cloud's psychosis I once wrote myself),
Starling said:
To conclude this section, I'd like to make it clear that I am not a psychologist and even if I was qualified to diagnose disorders, fiction isn't constrained to the limitations of reality and so won't necessarily line up perfectly, especially when things not occurring in real life are involved.
is really the big takeaway. The real-world analysis gives us, at best, an avenue to understanding Cloud's ordeal and why he couldn't simply "snap out of it." It gives us a means of explaining to someone who doesn't immediately get it why all of this was neither a deliberate lie on Cloud's part nor anything he should be blamed for himself -- he was a victim too in all this, after all.

Starling said:
How far this comparison can be taken without even mentioning Jenova and mako poisoning beyond the mako poisoning's role in Cloud's catatonic state and Jenova cells providing the memories Cloud shouldn't have is why I so strongly disagree with the notion that they're the main cause of Cloud's issues ...
In the absence of elaboration on the mechanics of the plot devices involved, such an analysis as you've written above would be our Bible for making sense of what happened to Cloud. Once upon a time, we had no Ultimanias and FFVII encouraged that level of study. As a route to academic exercise, it was probably a better time to be a FFVII fan.

Now, though, we have multiple source texts published by the IP holder in which the writer of the game is credited as providing editorial supervision and collaboration, explaining to us what went down from an in-universe perspective. The official explanation is by far less mentally stimulating, but so long as we're discussing the actual story, it means we have to discuss the one they gave us -- and the one they gave us tells us Cloud's mental collapse was due to mako poisoning, such as on pg. 216 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

(page scan)
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魔晄中毒
ライフストリームはすべての生命が還る場所であり、そのなかには膨大な知識があふれている。それゆえ、ライフストリームの流れのなかに人間が落ちると、頭に押し寄せる情報の多さが脳の許容量え超え、精神が崩壊する危険性が高い。この精神が崩壊した状態は「魔晄中毒」と呼ばれ、たとえライフストリームに落下しなくても、過度の精神エネルギー(魔晄エネルギー)にさらされることで起こり得る。クラウドは2度、魔晄中毒の状態におちいった。

Mako poisoning
As the Lifestream is where all life returns, it is overflowing with vast knowledge. Consequently, those who fall into the current of the Lifestream experience an abundance of knowledge surging into their mind, and face a high risk of mental collapse. This state of mental collapse is called "mako poisoning," and can occur through exposure to excessive amounts of spirit energy (mako energy) without even falling into the Lifestream. Cloud fell into a state of mako poisoning twice.
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Though one could probably make a reasonable case for the trauma of Zack's death being mixed up in there somewhere as well, there isn't a reasonable basis to claim that it was the primary cause, or even a major one. That trauma is never even mentioned in the Ultimanias when discussing Cloud's false identity.

Also, like I said earlier in this discussion, Cloud forgot tons of non-traumatic things and remembered plenty of other stuff that actually was traumatic (his mother being murdered, Nibelheim burning, Tifa being injured). There was nothing traumatic about having been inside the Shin-Ra building, but those memories were buried too -- not because they were traumatic, but because the context would shatter his illusion.

For that same reason, Cloud won't allow himself to access his memories of going into the general store in Nibelheim while recounting his tale of five years ago. The most we get is him walking in, the woman saying "Welcome" and walking up to him -- and then, upon her recognizing him and saying "Hey? Aren't you...," the screen flashes (as it often does when Cloud's memories are involved) and he asks himself "...Have I come here before? ...I don't remember."

Just like with the Shin-Ra building, his mind decided he had just never been there.

You see the kind of gaps his illusion was willing to create to protect his false identity? Holes you could fly the Highwind through! It would not only sooner try to sell the idea that he worked for Shin-Ra as a SOLDIER for years without going into the headquarters, it even had him going so far as to pretend he didn't visit the store of the tiny village he grew up in.

And the Ultimania Omega is explicit on pg. 101 that this is what was happening with these incongruous memories:

(page scan
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町の人の意味深な態度
幾人かの村人は、クラウドを小バカにした態度を見せる。これは、大見得を切って村を出たあげく一兵卒として帰郷したクラウドが、実際に受けた対応だ。よるず屋に入った覚えがないのは、そこで受けた対応が「クラウドがソルジャーではなかった」ことを裏づけるものであり、思い出すと自我崩壊につながりかねないため、無意識に記憶の修正作用が働いてのこと。

The mysterious attitude of the villagers
Several of the villagers show Cloud a contemptuous attitude. This was the reception Cloud actually received, having left the village in a cocky manner only to return as a mere trooper. The reason he has no memory of entering the shop is because his subconscious worked to revise the memory, as the reception he received would substantiate that "Cloud did not become a SOLDIER" and remembering this could cause his psyche to collapse.
----

This stuff is as cut and dry as it can be. It isn't as interesting, I'll agree, but it is what it is. We can certainly still discuss interpretations that could be drawn from the game without consulting official sources outside the game, but if we want to discuss canon, this is what we're working with.

They really haven't left much of anything to literary interpretation at this point.
Starling said:
... along with how I don't see Sephiroth getting involved until he kills President Shinra and even then his psychological manipulation is pretty mundane besides controlling Cloud's body and setting up an illusory recreation of Nibelheim. With how Cloud seemed to be able to throw off Sephiroth's attempt to make him kill Aerith and the lengths he went to break his mind, it seemed like Sephiroth was limited in how he could manipulate Cloud and couldn't really do much after Cloud sorted out his memory and identity issues.

Because of this, I find it most likely that the Jenova cells only copied memories, acting on self-preservation in response to the trauma Cloud sustained and the need to reestablish a functional mental state rather than as an attempt to manipulate Cloud. It certainly wouldn't be the only time Jenova cells behaved symbiotically with their host.

Who are you responding to here? Who has said Cloud's false identity had anything to do with Sephiroth manipulating Cloud?
 

hian

Purist
I still think the point that renders the above discussion a bit moot, is the fact that the sword itself, modified or not, does not necessarily present any threat to Cloud's new narrative, so I think it would be a rather contrived point to add to the plot.

If Cloud's soldier uniform does not present meaningful cognitive dissonance, I see no reason why the unmodified Buster Sword should present one either.
I simply don't see why it would be necessary for him to cover up "the true nature" of the sword. If he could eliminate Zack from his conscious memory, then by extension, that would mean that he would have eliminated the heritage of the sword by extension, which essentially means that looking it at should mean nothing more to him than looking upon Nibelheim, or places he's been in Midgar should mean anything to him.

Whether he forgot about it, or whether he repressed it, or whether it's believable that he could do so such a thing, is secondary to the glaringly obvious issue of why he would have to do so in the first place granted everything else happening in the story, and whether or not adding this adds anything to the quality of the writing of the story.

As I've said in many other threads already - FFVII's plot is like a Swiss cheese, filled with holes, logical breaks, and nonsensical narrative points. And if anything, the compilation only made it worse.
In going through this remake, they have an excellent opportunity for brushing up the plot, but the best way to start off doing this is shaving off unnecessary plot contrivances that don't need to be there to begin with, and whose presence threaten the cohesiveness and believability of the plot.

Adding another thing to explain - the sword modification, if indeed that's what this is - is not served by jotting it down to Cloud's mental issues, trauma or Mako poisoning non-withstanding.
It's bad writing plain and simple (unless, as we've all pretty much agreed on, it's presented as a conscious choice to demonstrate Cloud's transition into a mercenary).

That being said - the same people who wrote the mess that is the compilation's storyline, is the same people writing this, so it wouldn't surprise me at all, if this plot-point is made even more complex and contrived than it needs to be, or what we've considered thus far.

RANT :
disclaimer - I'm not jumping on FFVII's story as a whole though. I still love the story, and think it's a great story in general, in its broad strokes. But, it needs to be said that the original game was campy as hell, probably on purpose, where more attention was paid to making it an interesting experience than on making it a high-level coherent narrative.
This has been made worse over time, as devs and writers have gone back to the world several times to add to it and flesh it out with what appears to be a completely different mind-set and conception of the world than what was there when it was first made.

Now, though, we have multiple source texts published by the IP holder in which the writer of the game is credited as providing editorial supervision and collaboration, explaining to us what went down from an in-universe perspective.

Point in case - Essentially, what I think this should say is : telling us what they now, several years later, rationalize should have happened based on what they now think about the game after having been forced to deal with the plot again and again in order to create these guides, novels and compilation titles.

I don't think we should hold any illusions about the game being thought out in the way that many of these later titles "clarify" given the fact that most of these points could easily have been clarified in the original title had they in fact been conceived of at the time they were making it, not years after its original release.

This is not a dismissal however, of the "canon state" of the information provided by these release - rather it's just me pointing out that a lot of this information being canon does not save it from being nonsensical or contradictory with the original narrative.
In fact, the act of adding to canon so much time later after the context of the original development has changed, along with the memories, hearts and minds of its creators, the plot becomes gradually more contrived and nonsensical as fans have to further and further suspend their disbelief and rationalize the changes/additions that have been enforced over the years, making FFVII gradually more and more difficult to actually make meaningful sense of.

The original FFVII's plot is a thing that gained from not being fleshed out - not having everything spelled out - simply because the original plot was messy enough as it was.
The "clarifications" just messed it up even further, because it was written to flesh out or cover issues where really good clarification probably won't be forthcoming to begin with no matter how hard you try.
Keeping things vague, and allowing fans their "head-canon", or simply glossing over it with 90's anime charm, is the saving grace of FFVII's plot, and most of the additions they've made since the release only mess about with this.

That's the biggest reason they should avoid adding more stuff Cloud did unconsciously to cover up his real identity like the plague. It does not help the plot in any way what so ever.
 
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