Aerith or Tifa?

[Vendel]

Tifa has the opposite problem - she's a walking contradiction, a strong character utilized in an illogical and utterly fucking retarded manner. An astoundingly beautiful, self-made martial arts master, one-time ecoterrorist, and surrogate mother - by definition, an independent woman - should not even remotely depend on a man for happiness. And yet they make her entire story involve waiting by the phone for Cloud, literally and figuratively wringing her hands. It's even less plausible than Megan Fox getting stood up for an internet date by Shia LeDouche. Kyrie from DMC4 is the childhood friend they needed for this part. She can whimper and smile and wait patiently for the kiss from her angsty, facial-hairless sweetheart that never arrives. Instead they created the ultimate emancipated woman, and then decided to shoehorn her into the polar opposite role.

This sounds like some straw feminist argument. "Tifa don't need no man".

I also find it rather odd that you consider Tifa worrying about where Cloud is as some sort of defect. The man who she had been with for the better part of 2 years. They were raising two children together. Of course she is going to be fucking worried. But as the creators stated. Tifa is a strong woman. She would have soldiered on and raised those kids herself if she had to.

What exactly did you want Tifa to be doing?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm glad I didn't respond to that, Vendel did it way better than I could have. And I agree with him, if Cloud had never come home or even disappeared completely, Tifa would have gone on with life and taken care of the kids alone.

Would she be unhappy that Cloud was gone? Yes, strong women love too. But she wouldn't have let it kill her or anything.

 

[Super Mario]

Game Over. Tifa wins.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Now let it be known that, since this is not an LTD thread, I voted for Yuffie. Cause I like Yuffie, almost all the time. She's like the female equivalent of a sterotypical Shonen type lead character stuck in a supporting role, and I also like the underdog.

 

[null]

But she couldn't have made herself a master if she didn't have foundation in the first place, right? So she's not entirely self-made. o.o

Yo, she owned her own bar.

And self-made doesn't mean self-taught. Bill Gates went to Harvard, after all.

This sounds like some straw feminist argument. "Tifa don't need no man".

I also find it rather odd that you consider Tifa worrying about where Cloud is as some sort of defect. The man who she had been with for the better part of 2 years. They were raising two children together. Of course she is going to be fucking worried. But as the creators stated. Tifa is a strong woman. She would have soldiered on and raised those kids herself if she had to.

What exactly did you want Tifa to be doing?

A straw man is a misrepresentation of another argument to make it easier to attack.

For example, my post criticizes the use of Tifa solely as a prop for Cloud. You're taking a narrow facet of my argument - her getting upset over Cloud disappearing - and addressing that instead. That's a straw man.

 

[Vendel]

A straw man is a misrepresentation of another argument to make it easier to attack.

For example, my post criticizes the use of Tifa solely as a prop for Cloud. You're taking a narrow facet of my argument - her getting upset over Cloud disappearing - and addressing that instead. That's a straw man.

Really now? Maybe I read the wrong post. But it seems the entire point was that Tifa was unhappy without Cloud and I quote.

they make her entire story involve waiting by the phone for Cloud, literally and figuratively wringing her hands

Where exactly was your deeper meaning? Again I ask. What would you have had Tifa do? Call Yuffie for a girls night out to celebrate her new-found independence from Cloud?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I didn't see a straw man in anything Vendel said. But I agreed with him fully, so it's possible I am biased

 

[Fairheartstrife]

For example, my post criticizes the use of Tifa solely as a prop for Cloud. You're taking a narrow facet of my argument - her getting upset over Cloud disappearing - and addressing that instead. That's a straw man.

But your post doesn't criticize Tifa for solely being a prop for Cloud. In fact, you never mention once that she's used as a "prop" for Cloud. In fact, had you made that argument using FFVII as a reference and all the things Tifa endured to help piece Cloud back together, I maybe could have seen something like that. But your post says this:

Tifa has the opposite problem - she's a walking contradiction, a strong character utilized in an illogical and utterly fucking retarded manner. An astoundingly beautiful, self-made martial arts master, one-time ecoterrorist, and surrogate mother - by definition, an independent woman - should not even remotely depend on a man for happiness.

To which you add:

And yet they make her entire story involve waiting by the phone for Cloud, literally and figuratively wringing her hands.

Which is a bullshit theory based solely on the bolded section in your own post. Her entire story doesn't involve waiting for a man. She does a TREMENDOUS amount of other things and overcomes a whole shitfield of obstacles. Does PART of her life story involve waiting for Cloud, worrying for Cloud, caring for Cloud? Of course it does. She loves him. That doesn't detract from the strength of her character, it only enhances it.

Because even while worried--and she sure as shit isn't waiting by the phone (it took several rings for her to even decide to go answer the thing)--she is moving forward. She is taking care of HER bar, and HER kids and HER life. She is not out searching for Cloud, she is not weeping in a bedroom waiting for her man, she is not afraid to put on her gloves and fight for what's hers.

Just because she isn't shitting rainbows or washing her hands of the man shes loved for almost her entire life doesn't make her a weak woman. Or less independent. Or less emancipated. Or whatever little role you feel like trying to cast her in.

 

[Loxetta]

How is Tifa being a 'supporting prop' for Cloud demeaning to her character? Yes, she's a strong woman, can take care of herself in a fight or just from day to day, is raising children by herself, but she's not too proud to say "I miss you, please come home." And that is the biggest thing that makes Cloud pull his head out of his ass. She's supportive because Cloud needs the support, without her the entire story would fall apart. There wouldn't even be an Advent Children, because Cloud would still be a veggie down in Mideel.

Aerith, if only because she's a product of over-ambition. SE tried to create that super special snowflake/one-in-a-million/rainbow in a colorless world, to make the players fall in love with for the express purpose of breaking their hearts. And to be fair, they got her mostly right. They gave her the perfect leitmotif, and did a great job using subtlety to make the lack of her presence felt.

I'll admit that at first glance Aerith appears to fit the Staff Chick/Innocent Princess role to a tee, but I see you're not looking very far past that. She's every bit as strong a woman as Tifa is. Aerith refuses to be thought of as something fragile or incapable, she keeps an active role in the plan to stop Sephiroth, to the point where she takes matters into her own hands when she sees it's necessary. She's not all candy and hearts though either, she's had selfish, ulterior motives along the way, and she carries pain and dark memories in herself like everyone else in the party, she's just different because she made the choice to look towards the sky instead of the ground.

But she definitely benefits from the Kurt Cobain effect. Is she awesome because she's well written, or because she's dead? Take away Cloud, Zack, and all the eye-batting self insertion. What's left that really makes me give a shit that she's gone?

I highly disagree. I think that's a dumb thing to say. More casual players of the game or people that didn't pay much attention might only remember her because of how she died, but to say that's the only redeeming trait of her character? Seriously?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Does PART of her life story involve waiting for Cloud, worrying for Cloud, caring for Cloud? Of course it does. She loves him. That doesn't detract from the strength of her character, it only enhances it.

Because even while worried--and she sure as shit isn't waiting by the phone (it took several rings for her to even decide to go answer the thing)--she is moving forward. She is taking care of HER bar, and HER kids and HER life. She is not out searching for Cloud, she is not weeping in a bedroom waiting for her man, she is not afraid to put on her gloves and fight for what's hers.

In support of this, let me point out that Tifa seemingly knows exactly where to find Cloud. When she does go looking for him she arrives in short order at the Sector 5 Church. Seems to me she is worrying, but letting Cloud take care of Cloud while she takes care of business back at home.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Bill Gates went to Harvard, after all.

Didn't he drop out?

But she definitely benefits from the Kurt Cobain effect. Is she awesome because she's well written, or because she's dead? Take away Cloud, Zack, and all the eye-batting self insertion. What's left that really makes me give a shit that she's gone?

Clearly she didn't have an undercurrent of spunky, last-of-her-kind. She was clearly just there to be the self insertion for little girls who happened to be playing. There was nothing more interesting or dramatic about her character other than the fact that she died tragically.

You know, except for the fact she was experimented on for most of her life, managed to escape, can sense the death of people half the world away (Creepy Little Girl factor go!), hasn't grown close to very many people by her own admission, and seems to be generally a bit lonely. But she still manages to be spunky and a cheerleader to everyone. Really, though, her death was the only thing that made her interesting.

Tifa has the opposite problem - she's a walking contradiction, a strong character utilized in an illogical and utterly fucking retarded manner. An astoundingly beautiful, self-made martial arts master, one-time ecoterrorist, and surrogate mother - by definition, an independent woman - should not even remotely depend on a man for happiness. And yet they make her entire story involve waiting by the phone for Cloud, literally and figuratively wringing her hands. It's even less plausible than Megan Fox getting stood up for an internet date by Shia LeDouche. Kyrie from DMC4 is the childhood friend they needed for this part. She can whimper and smile and wait patiently for the kiss from her angsty, facial-hairless sweetheart that never arrives. Instead they created the ultimate emancipated woman, and then decided to shoehorn her into the polar opposite role.

tl;dr: "Tifa should have never cared about Cloud because it makes her character dumb."

 

[null]

Really now? Maybe I read the wrong post. But it seems the entire point was that Tifa was unhappy without Cloud and I quote.

Where exactly was your deeper meaning? Again I ask. What would you have had Tifa do? Call Yuffie for a girls night out to celebrate her new-found independence from Cloud?

Read it carefully. You want me to justify why she shouldn't be sad or depressed in a particular instance over Cloud. But why? I'm saying there's several instances where she's depressed over Cloud, or dwelling on Cloud, or looking for Cloud, in nearly every game she appears in. I'm not criticizing any one instance, it's that SE has her doing it all the time that irritates me. I don't like it.

Look at it this way: I'm saying she's miscast. Like I said, I'd prefer a Kyrie type to that role, and leave the smoking hot, bad-ass martial artist to threads that make better more sensical of her.

tl;dr: "Tifa should have never cared about Cloud because it makes her character dumb."

If you didn't read it, why mention it? Or bother to grossly mischaracterize it?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Sorry J, it still sounds to me like you're saying that there is something wrong with the "smoking hot, bad-ass martial artist" loving Cloud.

Yes, she is shown doing similar stuff supporting Cloud in FFVII, and in AC/C. Why is this wrong? Cloud is still falling back on his "I'm so dark" behavior, why shouldn't Tifa be *gasp* the same person she was in the original game? OMG C0ntInuityz! How dare they?

 

[null]

Sorry J, it still sounds to me like you're saying that there is something wrong with the "smoking hot, bad-ass martial artist" loving Cloud.

Did I really say there's something wrong with Tifa loving Cloud? Is that what all the fuss is about?

Yes, she is shown doing similar stuff supporting Cloud in FFVII, and in AC/C. Why is this wrong? Cloud is still falling back on his "I'm so dark" behavior, why shouldn't Tifa be *gasp* the same person she was in the original game? OMG C0ntInuityz! How dare they?

Oh god, please don't get me started on Cloud.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Read it carefully. You want me to justify why she shouldn't be sad or depressed in a particular instance over Cloud. But why? I'm saying there's several instances where she's depressed over Cloud, or dwelling on Cloud, or looking for Cloud, in nearly every game she appears in. I'm not criticizing any one instance, it's that SE has her doing it all the time that irritates me. I don't like it.

Look at it this way: I'm saying she's miscast. Like I said, I'd prefer a Kyrie type to that role, and leave the smoking hot, bad-ass martial artist to threads that make better more sensical of her.

So...in other words, she's not fulfilling your wet-dream expectations? Is that it? Because again, in your own post, you completely contradict any point you are trying to make. She can't be shown doing something (such as looking for/mooning over Cloud) consistently and then have you claim she's miscast. I mean, that's bullshit. If it's a constant and consistent character trait and performance, then it's INTENTIONAL and not miscast.

Just because drop-dead gorgeous ass-kicking Tifa isn't shredding bad guys and jiggling her goods with a wink and "hurrah" without a care doesn't make her a weak or miscast character. AT ALL.

Your entire post in unsupported, unsubstantiated opinion--and that's absolutely fine. It's an opinion poll.

 

[null]

So...in other words, she's not fulfilling your wet-dream expectations? Is that it?

No.

Because again, in your own post, you completely contradict any point you are trying to make.

Where? In what way?

She can't be shown doing something (such as looking for/mooning over Cloud) consistently and then have you claim she's miscast. I mean, that's bullshit.

Why can't you be consistently miscast?

If it's a constant and consistent character trait and performance, then it's INTENTIONAL and not miscast.

Explain why INTENTIONAL and miscast are mutually exclusive.

Just because drop-dead gorgeous ass-kicking Tifa isn't shredding bad guys and jiggling her goods with a wink and "hurrah" without a care doesn't make her a weak or miscast character. AT ALL.

Speaking of contradiction.

Your entire post in unsupported, unsubstantiated opinion--and that's absolutely fine. It's an opinion poll.

Likewise.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Where? In what way?

It's bolded. For your viewing pleasure. I can only hand-hold for so much.

Why can't you be consistently miscast?

I could be. I'm real. A fictional character created with a set personality--one that you've already claimed as a consistent one--was obviously MEANT TO BE that way. It's kind of how the process works. **headdesk**

Tifa is designed as she is designed. Period. Whether or not you like the design is up to you, but you can't claim the character as miscast or even misrepresented, because obviously she isn't. Are you following ANY of this, kiddo?

Explain why INTENTIONAL and miscast are mutually exclusive.

see above for hand-holding explanation.

Speaking of contradiction.

Speaking of sarcasm...

Likewise.

I didn't state an opinion. I referenced fact. Had I said: "OMG, Teefa is so awesome because she can high-kick in a mini-skirt!" is opinion. Correcting you on your erroneous logic is NOT.

 

[null]

It's bolded. For your viewing pleasure. I can only hand-hold for so much.

Lol, bolding is your answer to the question "in what way?" And you say I'm the one who needs hand-holding?

I could be. I'm real. A fictional character created with a set personality--one that you've already claimed as a consistent one--was obviously MEANT TO BE that way. It's kind of how the process works. **headdesk**

Tifa is designed as she is designed. Period. Whether or not you like the design is up to you, but you can't claim the character as miscast or even misrepresented, because obviously she isn't. Are you following ANY of this, kiddo?

Well, I could argue that "miscast" is itself inherently opinion, but I'll stick to the definition "unsuitably or inappropriately assigned to a role". A character being made to behave inconsistently with the traits they're given fits that definition. The fact that it's a fictional character written for that very role is just unintentional comedy at its finest. (At first. Then it's really irritating.)

I didn't state an opinion. I referenced fact. Had I said: "OMG, Teefa is so awesome because she can high-kick in a mini-skirt!" is opinion. Correcting you on your erroneous logic is NOT.

No, you rambled incoherently about wet dreams, phantom self-contradicting sentences you won't explain, said bullshit again, stated your own opinion, and in the grand finale, magnificently failed to explain why miscast and intentional are mutually exclusive. Your logic is bad and you should FEEL bad.

Actually, I take it back. You did figure out this is an opinion poll. Maybe I'm just holding the bar too high for you.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Lol, bolding is your answer to the question "in what way?" And you say I'm the one who needs hand-holding?



Well, I could argue that "miscast" is itself inherently opinion, but I'll stick to the definition "unsuitably or inappropriately assigned to a role". A character being made to behave inconsistently with the traits they're given fits that definition. The fact that it's a fictional character written for that very role is just unintentional comedy at its finest. (At first. Then it's really irritating.)



No, you rambled incoherently about wet dreams, phantom self-contradicting sentences you won't explain, said bullshit again, stated your own opinion, and in the grand finale, magnificently failed to explain why miscast and intentional are mutually exclusive. Your logic is bad and you should FEEL bad.

Actually, I take it back. You did figure out this is an opinion poll. Maybe I'm just holding the bar too high for you.

Look, kiddo, if you can't follow linear logic than there really is no help for you. The bolded portion of your own text answers your question. It's right there. Look at it.

Are you even reading what you're writing?

"unsuitably or inappropriately assigned to a role". A character being made to behave inconsistently with the traits they're given...

Her personality IS ONE OF THE TRAITS SHE WAS GIVEN. If you'd lose the fixation on her bust size and ass-kicking ability you'd have figured this out by now. Your basing how a character BEHAVES solely on how they look, and that's where your argument not only fails, it fails spectacularly. You sound like a petulant child that can't understand why the hot chick isn't doing what you want her to. It's either sad or funny. I'm not sure which.

And, muffin, I can step over your bar without even stretching.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'd like to say, I once knew a beautiful, busty woman who, while constrained by reality in ways Tifa is not, could undoubtedly kick my ass. I know this, because we used to train together, me with a bokuto, her with a bo-staff. And I lost every time.

If I had disappeared suddenly from our home without explaining the problem, I am sure she'd have worried, tried to get in touch by phone, and such. It seems to me that you're taking a facet of a larger character and trying to make it conflict with the rest of Tifa's personality. Reality, in my experience, does not seem to agree. This is just my personal opinion based on my views of both fiction (Tifa) and reality (this ex I referenced) and might not in any way match up with other people's life experience though, so the point may be moot.

 

[null]

And, muffin, I can step over your bar without even stretching.

No, this is limbo damnit! You're supposed to sink to my petulant level!

*tips hat* Well darlin', thanks for playing. I was hoping OWD or Ryu would drop in, but those fuckers seem to have sprouted lives at the most inopportune moment.

Y'all have a good night (it's night in the US, and that's all that matters).

 

[Fairheartstrife]

No, this is limbo damnit! You're supposed to sink to my petulant level!

*tips hat* Well darlin', thanks for playing. I was hoping OWD or Ryu would drop in, but those fuckers seem to have sprouted lives at the most inopportune moment.

Y'all have a good night (it's night in the US, and that's all that matters).

I don't sink. I'm far too glorious for that. (or full of hot air, but that depends on who you ask, and since I say I'm glorious, I'm fucking glorious, damn it!)

Ryu and OWD don't waste a lot of time on the trivial...or they found lives. Which I doubt.

G'night.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Enjoy the darkness while it lasts Darth Caedus, morning with its sickening light comes around all too soon.

And FHS, on the glorious vs. hot air thing: Why can't it be both?

Damn people who find real lives.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Null, is that you? I was having a Trivia night at a bar in town.

In a way, yes, you are correct, but in another, you are oversimplifying the situation a lot.

There are a lot of otherwise extremely strong willed, independent women who get hung up over and worry about those they love, especially when said people go off on their own and do not call. Doubly so when those people are not entirely the healthiest of people mentally. In a way, yes, Tifa is a prop for Cloud, but he desperately needs the propping up, and that is not the only thing she is, many of her other roles you mention herself, one of which explains, in a lot of ways, why she is such a worrywort.

In all cases, I would describe it as a mischaracterization to say she is 'waiting by the phone' for Cloud because she needs him like a teenager. In a way, she is 'waiting by the phone', but not because she desperately emotionally needs him, but because she cares so much, because she worries over his well being.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

In a way, yes, you are correct, but in another, you are oversimplifying the situation a lot.

There are a lot of otherwise extremely strong willed, independent women who get hung up over and worry about those they love, especially when said people go off on their own and do not call. Doubly so when those people are not entirely the healthiest of people mentally. In a way, yes, Tifa is a prop for Cloud, but he desperately needs the propping up, and that is not the only thing she is, many of her other roles you mention herself, one of which explains, in a lot of ways, why she is such a worrywort.

In all cases, I would describe it as a mischaracterization to say she is 'waiting by the phone' for Cloud because she needs him like a teenager. In a way, she is 'waiting by the phone', but not because she desperately emotionally needs him, but because she cares so much, because she worries over his well being.

^This. All of this.