SPOILERS Anyone Willing to Admit the Remake Was better then the Original?

looneymoon

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When I went through hard mode I got this impression that normal mode emphasized its mechanics somewhat poorly. Not to say FF7R was particularly bad about this, because I find a lot of games do this (or maybe I'm just dumb and bad at games lol). Mostly it felt a little cheap that normal mode was essentially the grind to progress to hard mode. Especially for a campaign that lasts 30+ hours. It becomes really obvious too that the game was intentionally designed around hard mode, so it seems weird in retrospect that it wasn't an option to choose that route on the onset. It adds significant bloat to a game where it's clear they struggled with the length/pacing.
 

Makoeyes987

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I suppose "unimpactful" was the wrong word, but I wanted to convey that if the absence of items makes the game stronger, then their current implementation should be reevaluated. Instead of crates giving you Potions that only heal a small amount of HP and require a bit of menuing to use, why not just have the crates restore your HP immediately? Instead of having Phoenix Downs, why not implement a mechanic where you can revive allies by going to the spot where they're downed and pressing a prompt? Instead of collecting Antidotes, why not make blocking a status aliment attack reduce its effectiveness? By doing these, newcomers would still have the tools they need to survive and the combat would be more fluid overall.

Removal of items doesn't make the game "stronger," they make the game's subsequent hard mode playthrough and game design shine brighter. That doesn't mean Normal is irrelevant.

Starting from Hard Mode instantly wouldn't work because the Hard Mode is scaled/balanced around the characters being level 50, with multiple materia mastered, and having their weapon skills mastered. If the game started you out with all abilities, materia and stats at max, that'd be an incredibly short and pointless campaign, especially since you'd lack the experience to properly engage with it in the first place. It's why starting KH in Critical Mode or RE8 in Village of Shadows difficulty is extremely painful and tedious if you have absolutely no idea how to handle it and have none of the abilities/currency/items to offset it. It's post-game content for a reason.

Not only that, but what's the point of gil, shops, and any of the RPG functions of a Final Fantasy then? You're making the game play like an entirely different series like Kingdom Hearts. Status effects are cured by items because there are a myriad of statuses that have specific restorative items meant to alleviate them. And if you could just block status effects, then they'd be pointless and the game becomes a full tilt action game where your entire strategy relies on perfect reflexes and timing ala Dark Souls and Kingdom Hearts. Malboros would be worthless lol. That's not what FFVII-R or any FF is. You will get hit (often), and you take the hits and keep going. The only status effect in FFVII-R that's "blockable" is sometimes paralysis. And even then, mostly your only out to paralysis is avoiding it.

Crates aren't everywhere in the level design, and therefore their use as HP restoratives cannot be relied on everywhere, anytime in any situation. A potion is the better portable option because it restores a set value of HP that a person can use, and when someone's HP stat increases, that pittance of recovery will not scale to their HP value. That's why several types of potions exist. I mean, this is why these type of RPG items exist. And infinite amounts of Phoenix Downs used on the spot as a sort of CoD/FPS type revival mechanic would absolutely murder any sort of difficulty in the game. One only needs to look at FFXV to see what type of imbalance that would create.

If the only problem that items in FFVII-R create is using a menu, then that's perfectly fine. This is an action-RPG. You're gonna have menus. This isn't a full-bore action game where everything should be shortcutted and instantly accessible.
 

ph14basicbitch

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The concept of "crates heal you without giving you a potion" is technically already in Remake just with mana, as breaking crates gives you Mako Shards which do automatically restore your MP without you having to go into a menu and use them as a consumable (Ether). But obviously, control is taken away from the player, as you can't Mako Shard on demand versus potting on demand. (Technically, Mako Shards can also be "cheesed" in hard mode because of the save / load system, so if the player really needs MP, you can get it.)

Could the rest of the game work like that? Honestly, yeah. We're only talking about removing items, right? Like there's still benches and heal materia as forms of "heal on demand", and Phoenix Downs were only useable in fights to begin with as party members have to revive with 1 HP after fights they die in since they now are shown walking around with Cloud on the map.

WRT statuses... Ehhh diminishing returns on being hit by the same status effect multiple times in a row is also in Remake, at least for monsters and bosses. I don't actually remember if player characters also have diminishing returns on statuses lol. But like... Malboro status effects, as well as many other status effects, are dodgeable. Malboro casts from it's mouth, so just don't be in front of it when you see the red "Bad Breath" cast, and you can't be hit by its status effects. This makes your AI controlled party members bait for these moves, of course. But do you really want to use ATB cleansing them when you could just attack the Malboro yourself? Again, aggression is definitely rewarded lol.

But there is still inevitable damage and inevitable status effects (I hate the asshole brain pod who sleeps you and Barret in the drum) cause yeah 7R is not a game where you're relying on i-frames and timed dodges, hence why the devs gave you the guard/block button. Like how ATB bar are "turns", guard/block is basically like the "Defend" command from turn based games.

Let's be real here, items that cure individual status effects, Potions, Ethers, Phoenix Feathers are in the game because it's a Final Fantasy game and practically every Final Fantasy game has this stuff lol. They are probably on an internal Square-Enix checklist of "stuff to have in a main numbered FF game". I think what you guys are really trying to get at is not necessarily "should menuable items be in the game", but rather the traditional FF RPG identity versus more fluid action gameplay?

Player skill and how players interface w/the game is another story. It's not uncommon to hear of people who get through Normal mode without understanding Pressure and Stagger. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think I hear this a lot with FF14 too, especially now that there are story and job level potions in the item shop. Realistically, we'd like to think of Normal as a tutorial for Hard where people understand these things. The devs probably intended it that way too. Similarly, the MSQ is also considered a tutorial for FF14. But I don't know - it doesn't always pan out that way. A person who cares about the battle system or how their job works, is gonna care about the battle system regardless of if they start in Normal or Hard.

(Also, "hard mode, the mode where you can't use items, still giving you chests with items" is weird. You can't use items on hard, so why does hard give you items?)
 
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Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
The devs intend for all kinds of players with all kinds of playstyles to be able to get through the game. If you just want to get through the story, fine. If you want the story with some challenge, also fine, if you want a heavy gameplay challenge, also fine. There's no one 'intended' way to play that is better than the others.

If only munchkins can play through it, then that is bad game design.

If item use bothers you, don't use em. If you don't want to smash crates, don't smash crates. If you're not forced to use them, what does it matter that they're an option available?

Edit: The argument is that they reward exploration, but if the reward is immediate healing, then why explore if you have full health and MP?

In terms of groundbreaking, the Souls style certainly is having influence beyond fromsoft itself, and the likes of Jedi Fallen Order, which I'm playing now, but I dunno how long it will last. I played Sekiro and Bloodborne, got as far as the final boss in each and gave up, because progressing further would have required more grinding than I could be bothered with. The combat system ends up being so similar that I get bored, but for all the focus on skills, you can levelgrind your way through if you want usually.
 

Phantom Valentine

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Are you not planning to play the OG at all?
I'm a PC gamer (trying to learn the controller) and the PC version of OG is horrible to control. I got as far as the scorpion boss and had to stop. I plan to play Ever Crisis but I know that isn't the same thing. I'm very dependent on YouTube to know the story unfortunately.
 

LNK

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Nate
"Popped in ff7R for my Grandpa. Had to wait 60 min for it to install. After 10 min the main character started glitching all over the screen and froze. Turned it off then back on and it required an upgrade through the internet. Disconnected the ps4, plugged in his old playstation, and he proceeds to play OG ff7."
 

Wol

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That doesn’t really mean anything. Few games in history have impacted the industry as much as FFVII. Certainly no Final Fantasy since has even come close.
Sure, but a lot of other "recent" games impacted/influenced the industry much more than remake. Remake didn't bring anything new into the table and while it has amazing aspects (combat, presentation, ost, etc) the total result is not an outstanding marvel but a great game with solid foundations imo.

I don't think it sold amazingly well either (for a long-awaited remake of one hell of a popular title), at least last time I checked.
 

Wol

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Rosarian Shield
@Wol Which recent games impacted/influenced the industry more than remake? And does that necessarily translate to better?
The Witcher 3 and Souls games, for example and countless others that had more success and popularity.

Necessary it doesn't translate to better, rather to more memorable.
 
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LNK

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The Witcher 3 and Souls games, for example and countless others that had more success and popularity.

Necessary it doesn't translate to better, rather to more memorable.

In what ways did those impact/influence the industry? I haven't played any of em.
 

Wol

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In what ways did those impact/influence the industry? I haven't played any of em.
TW3 is regarded as one of the best games of all time, it received plenty of awards, and it sold extremely well despite previous ones being relatively unknown. It excelled in almost all aspects (personally I think the combat is kinda meh but everything else is top-notch). Even the dlcs were considered extremely well done. Its overall quality and massive content impacted/impressed the industry.

Souls games are so copied nowadays it speaks for itself. Elden Ring, the latest "entry", now sold more than 12m+ copies.
 

LNK

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Nate
TW3 is regarded as one of the best games of all time, it received plenty of awards, and it sold extremely well despite previous ones being relatively unknown. It excelled in almost all aspects (personally I think the combat is kinda meh but everything else is top-notch). Even the dlcs were considered extremely well done. Its overall quality and massive content impacted the industry I would say.

To be fair, that doesn't explain why it was impactful though. Neither does what you said about the Souls games. It being overall a great game, can be said about a ton of games. I'd say the same of Ghost of Tsushima
 

LNK

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Nate
What impactul means to you?

I'd say something that has an effect on me.
Which I agree, those games had an effect on people. I'm just asking for specifics examples of what was impactful and influential, that games now are trying to replicate?
 

Wol

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I'd say something that has an effect on me.
Which I agree, those games had an effect on people. I'm just asking for specifics examples of what was impactful and influential, that games now are trying to replicate?
Souls games brought back a hardcore fantasy experience formula focused on dark scenarios and enigmatic storytelling (intentionally vague narrative) with high-level of customization... and it worked so well that even the general HUD is copied.

TW3 was simply overall exceptional, especially content-wise. While delivering the usual, its side-quests also had great storytelling and its open world is big but alive (amazing npcs and cities). It simply overdelivered quality-wise, which is why it was a critical success.
 
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Ite

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That doesn’t really mean anything. Few games in history have impacted the industry as much as FFVII. Certainly no Final Fantasy since has even come close.

Honestly think they should retire FF as a brand. They’ve been using chocobos in other franchises since SNES anyway, and I don’t know if there are enough automatic sales for the IP to make up for the pressure and reception. I certainly don’t see “FF” in a title and think “I gotta get it! It’s FF!” anymore, and I’m not alone.

Souls games brought back a hardcore fantasy experience formula focused on dark scenarios and enigmatic storytelling (intentionally vague narrative) with high-level of customization... and it worked so well that even the general HUD is copied.

When the most popular Skyrim mods are Soulslike HUD and combat, that’s a pretty clear broadcast of an “impactful” game to me. Ironically, we’re not talking about Skyrim really, even though it ought to be first on our list of impactful modern games — and before you say that it’s too old, it came out just over 3 years before Witcher 3.
 

Wol

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Rosarian Shield
Btw personally I don't see TW3 as innovative, but its strenght is on its overall quality and volume. That game is big but everything is done really well.
 

Smoothie King

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Pat
Honestly think they should retire FF as a brand. They’ve been using chocobos in other franchises since SNES anyway, and I don’t know if there are enough automatic sales for the IP to make up for the pressure and reception. I certainly don’t see “FF” in a title and think “I gotta get it! It’s FF!” anymore, and I’m not alone.



When the most popular Skyrim mods are Soulslike HUD and combat, that’s a pretty clear broadcast of an “impactful” game to me. Ironically, we’re not talking about Skyrim really, even though it ought to be first on our list of impactful modern games — and before you say that it’s too old, it came out just over 3 years before Witcher 3.

I’m going to get lambasted on here but FF XVI looks… alright? I know we haven’t seen much yet but it hasn’t blown my hair back or anything like that. I’m not a fan of the FF XIV design aesthetic and it’s heavily influenced by that. I’ll still buy it but heaven help me, I’m more looking forward to Forspoken.

FFVII Remake for me is the gold standard, though. If you’re talking about modern day RPG’s you can take your Persona’s and everything else. Remake was a revelation. Maybe it didn’t reinvent the wheel but it’s the only game I’ve ever played that bridged Hollywood-level cinematics with traditional RPG mechanics and AAA action combat. It was incredible. Part II is easily my second most anticipated game ever, behind only the original Remake.
 
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LNK

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Souls games brought back a hardcore fantasy experience formula focused on dark scenarios and enigmatic storytelling (intentionally vague narrative) with high-level of customization... and it worked so well that even the general HUD is copied.

Ok, that make sense. But, didn't the souls series start in 2008 or 2009 though? I'd say Uncharted was more influential than ff7R as well. That timeframe is a huge difference when it comes to capability of being influential. Especially since remake came out 10 years later. Then with ff7R being a remake, that hinders itself even more.
 
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