Before Crisis is canon but shoddy.

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"Vacationing in the heartland of a subjugated enemy."

There are flyers all over the world inviting people to come and vacation in Turtle's Paradise! Gil is gil. And it's not as if they were there to make trouble, quite the opposite.

 

[Roger]

Rufus, Reno or Rude could have picked up a phone and told Cloud that Sephiroth Clones had appeared as soon as Tseng and Elena were captured.
Instead they waited while Tseng and Elena got information tortured out of them, then when Kadaj found them sicced them on Cloud, still without warning him, then lied about the trio's nature or what they are after to Cloud's face resulting in Materia falling in the wrong hands and the return of Sephiroth and the near destrunction of the Planet. Even Tseng and Elena had to be rescued with zero help from them. When Cloud expected them to help save the kids they turned him down flat. Yeah, they're real heroes, screw Cloud and his mopeyness.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You're right - they should have handed everything over to Cloud and let him take charge. It's not as if giving Jenova's head to Cloud might trigger his Jenova cells. It's not as if the cells he shares with Sephiroth might prompt him to do Sephiroth's - or the Remnant's - bidding. Like that could ever happen! I mean, it's not as if Rufus ever actually saw Cloud give the Black Materia to Sephiroth, or that this was associated with the unleashing of the Planet's Weapons, one of which almost succeeded in killing Rufus. It's not as if Aerith died while travelling the world in Cloud's so-called protection. It's not as if Cloud has never been known to lie or pretend to be something he isn't. And it's certainly not as if Cloud is quite obviously depressed. Rufus has no more reason to mistrust Cloud than we, the audience, do.

Obviously from our point of view Rufus is acting like a bit of a dick, but why is it so hard to see the situation from his POV?

 

[Clement Rage]

You're also forgetting that Rufus did contact Cloud (through Reno). That's the reason Cloud goes to Healen to begin with.

No, I'm not. There is a huge difference between 'I've got work for you' and 'three superpowered killers are gunning for you, watch your back' If Rufus has benevolent intentions, what is your in universe explanation for deliberately playing down the threat at stake? He even dismisses them as 'kids who miss their mothers' in person intentionally trying to lower Cloud's guard. That's the only reason to say that.

Speaking of which, why do you think it would have turned out so much better if he had given the box to Cloud at that point? The dude was despondent and uncooperative with the people closest to him at that time, to say nothing of what trying to work with a former enemy would have been like. Tifa had to bless him out just to get him to try rescuing the kids in their care. Oh, and that dragon you mentioned was wrecking Edge? From another box, this time of materia that had been left in Cloud's care -- which he just left laying in plain sight for anyone who might be watching him (like, I don't know, the three guys who had just attacked him) to find.

Because Cloud has already proven he can defend himself against them, and the Turks have already proven that they can't. Rufus is relying on blind luck that they don't search or interrogate him.

As for that dragon, when he left the Church he had no idea the remnants existed (something a warning might have helped with, by the way) By the time he gets back, they've already been and gone. And why do they go to the church? Because Rufus sends them after Cloud.

Maybe Rufus should have at least told him he had the remains. But maybe he would have if their meeting had gone better and he felt like he knew he could count on Cloud. As it was, the location was ultimately kept a secret even from Reno and Rude.

Doubtful, he'd already lied multiple times and said they found nothing. Cloud correctly deduces they're being insincere and walks out.

How do you figure this would have been the result? Without Aerith, the result would have probably been Cloud dead, Sephiroth revived, and the rest of the world following right behind Cloud. It was thoroughly demonstrated that the Turks didn't have any means of actually killing the SHM, much less Sephiroth himself.
----

Meh, maybe. By her first intervention in the church, Loz and Yazoo have already been knocked out of contention for the moment and Kadaj is on the run. But the second one keeps Cloud alive after he's shot in the back and blown up.

Was that a gamble? Absolutely. You'll have to explain how it was for power, though.

Playing his enemies against each other is likely to get one of them killed. If Cloud loses, then when Kadaj comes back he says 'Oh, did I say Cloud had JENOVA's head? I meant Vincent!'

I guess you can spin anything to look bad if you try. "He says he's not sorry he kept Jenova's remains away from Kadaj, guys. What a villain!" =P

You omitted the part about not minding because he's having so much fun.

There are flyers all over the world inviting people to come and vacation in Turtle's Paradise! Gil is gil. And it's not as if they were there to make trouble, quite the opposite.

Godo mentions that he's very uncomfortable with the Shinra presence in town, but can do nothing about it. The last time the Turks were in town they blew it up, it's like SS Officers deliberately going drinking in uniform in Occupied France.

You're right - they should have handed everything over to Cloud and let him take charge. It's not as if giving Jenova's head to Cloud might trigger his Jenova cells. It's not as if the cells he shares with Sephiroth might prompt him to do Sephiroth's - or the Remnant's - bidding. Like that could ever happen! I mean, it's not as if Rufus ever actually saw Cloud give the Black Materia to Sephiroth, or that this was associated with the unleashing of the Planet's Weapons, one of which almost succeeded in killing Rufus. It's not as if Aerith died while travelling the world in Cloud's so-called protection. It's not as if Cloud has never been known to lie or pretend to be something he isn't. And it's certainly not as if Cloud is quite obviously depressed. Rufus has no more reason to mistrust Cloud than we, the audience, do.

Because sending superpowered killers after someone with no warning whatsoever is a major dick move, especially a former enemy that it might be useful to you to get rid of. If merely being in the presence of JENOVA was enough, Kadaj would know as soon as he was in the same room and that's game over. He could even just have had Cloud deliver the damn thing somewhere, anywhere, safer than his lap. Have Reeve put it in a vault. Almost anywhere in the world is safer than in his lap. The safest thing to do if he was actually altruistic would be to put into some else's care.

 

[Roger]

You're right - they should have handed everything over to Cloud and let him take charge. It's not as if giving Jenova's head to Cloud might trigger his Jenova cells. It's not as if the cells he shares with Sephiroth might prompt him to do Sephiroth's - or the Remnant's - bidding. Like that could ever happen! I mean, it's not as if Rufus ever actually saw Cloud give the Black Materia to Sephiroth, or that this was associated with the unleashing of the Planet's Weapons, one of which almost succeeded in killing Rufus. It's not as if Aerith died while travelling the world in Cloud's so-called protection. It's not as if Cloud has never been known to lie or pretend to be something he isn't. And it's certainly not as if Cloud is quite obviously depressed. Rufus has no more reason to mistrust Cloud than we, the audience, do.

Obviously from our point of view Rufus is acting like a bit of a dick, but why is it so hard to see the situation from his POV?

They could have told AVALANCHE what was what, instead of keeping them in the dark. OR handled the situation themselves since they felt capable of doing so. They did neither.
They did involve this depressed, untrustworthy Cloud into the situation, against his will. Counted on him doing everything for them but didn't tell him anything useful because they preferred manipulation over trust and wanted to hold on the chance of making it out of this situation with the Jenova head in possession even if it meant Tseng and Elena's lives were forfeit. Does this sound like they've changed all that much?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

1. Are you suggesting the Remnants would never have tracked Cloud if.... what? As far as I can remember, there is no reason to suppose that Rufus said "Cloud has Jenova" or that he "sicced" the Remnants on Cloud. Kadaj and Co could quite easily have found him for themselves.
2. It is not unreasonable or inaccurate of Rufus to point out that if Sephiroth is coming back, then Cloud will be involved whether he wants to be or not. Rufus doesn't choose to involve Cloud so much as acknowledge its inevitability.
3. Rufus tells Cloud everything he knows. It would be stupid not to. He just doesn't actually know all that much. Cloud already knows before he even arrives in Healen that the Remnants are looking for "mother" and Rufus admits that he and his people have been looking for Jenova and that their investigations may have disturbed the Remnants or Sephiroth's slumbering will or whatever... How is it even possible to share useful information when the information makes no sense?! The only thing he keeps secret from him is the fact that he has Jenova on his lap. Under the circumstances, I would probably have done the same thing. Hell, Barret would probably have done the same thing.
4. The thing I've never been able to understand is why Rufus throws Jenova's head off the balcony and then flings himself after it, shooting all the way down. How could this have struck him as the smart thing to do?
5. They wanted Jenova's head to try to find a cure for Geostigma and also to stop chancers and evil scientists (some of whom appear in Case of Shinra) from getting their hands on it.

I don't think Rufus and his Turks are angels or even very clever all the time, but they're not unmitigated evil either.

 

[Roger]

1. Are you suggesting the Remnants would never have tracked Cloud if.... what? As far as I can remember, there is no reason to suppose that Rufus said "Cloud has Jenova" or that he "sicced" the Remnants on Cloud. Kadaj and Co could quite easily have found him for themselves.
2. It is not unreasonable or inaccurate of Rufus to point out that if Sephiroth is coming back, then Cloud will be involved whether he wants to be or not. Rufus doesn't choose to involve Cloud so much as acknowledge its inevitability.
3. Rufus tells Cloud everything he knows. It would be stupid not to. He just doesn't actually know all that much. Cloud already knows before he even arrives in Healen that the Remnants are looking for "mother" and Rufus admits that he and his people have been looking for Jenova and that their investigations may have disturbed the Remnants or Sephiroth's slumbering will or whatever... How is it even possible to share useful information when the information makes no sense?! The only thing he keeps secret from him is the fact that he has Jenova on his lap. Under the circumstances, I would probably have done the same thing. Hell, Barret would probably have done the same thing.
4. The thing I've never been able to understand is why Rufus throws Jenova's head off the balcony and then flings himself after it, shooting all the way down. How could this have struck him as the smart thing to do?
5. They wanted Jenova's head to try to find a cure for Geostigma and also to stop chancers and evil scientists (some of whom appear in Case of Shinra) from getting their hands on it.

I don't think Rufus and his Turks are angels or even very clever all the time, but they're not unmitigated evil either.

Kadaj confronts Rufus about lying concerning Jenova's whereabouts, this is after they first were under the impression Cloud had it. Yes, I'm pretty sure the takeaway is Rufus told them Cloud was hiding Jenova.

Reno or Rude, recorded the forming of the Silver haired men at the Northern Crater. They know what they are and where they came from. Cloud had to hear about it from Vincent.

As for those "evil scientists", there was only one scientist interested in Jenova, he had this interest because he could use it to create a vaccine for Geostigma. He's mysteriously ended up dead though, after he told Rufus that unfortunately there was no cure for him.

Rufus had the guy that pointed them in this direction killed and gambled the creation of the vaccine to Geostigma on the hopes that this person was right about the necessity for Jenova but wrong about there being hope for a cure. Then when the stakes got heightened and Sephiroth got involved, Rufus, happily in might add, by his own words, gambled some more with the fate of Planet. All for the cure to the illness he had. Rufus is in this for completely selfish reasons. That doesn't make him unmitigated evil but it is hardly a good form of atonement.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They did involve this depressed, untrustworthy Cloud into the situation, against his will. Counted on him doing everything for them but didn't tell him anything useful because they preferred manipulation over trust and wanted to hold on the chance of making it out of this situation with the Jenova head in possession even if it meant Tseng and Elena's lives were forfeit. Does this sound like they've changed all that much?

I see we really are just going to ignore the proof they weren't planning to use Jenova's remains ...

No, I'm not. There is a huge difference between 'I've got work for you' and 'three superpowered killers are gunning for you, watch your back' If Rufus has benevolent intentions, what is your in universe explanation for deliberately playing down the threat at stake?

Lic already went over it better than I could have. Cloud was necessary because of his strength, but they had very little reason to think they could count on him.

Because Cloud has already proven he can defend himself against them, and the Turks have already proven that they can't.

Which proves that he's useful, not necessarily trustworthy.

As for that dragon, when he left the Church he had no idea the remnants existed (something a warning might have helped with, by the way) By the time he gets back, they've already been and gone.

He had plenty of idea after they attacked him. He didn't go back to the church, though, or even to check on Tifa and the kids. Dude was not handling things well.

Doubtful, he'd already lied multiple times and said they found nothing.

What's doubtful? That Reno and Rude didn't know? They didn't.

You omitted the part about not minding because he's having so much fun.

You omitted the part where the question he's responding to is if he regrets interfering in Sephiroth's resurrection ... and that the guy asking is the guy trying to revive Seph ... What are you looking for there? For Rufus not to have a dickish reply?

If merely being in the presence of JENOVA was enough, Kadaj would know as soon as he was in the same room and that's game over.

Kadaj didn't have Jenova cells, so he couldn't sense Jenova cells.

He could even just have had Cloud deliver the damn thing somewhere, anywhere, safer than his lap. Have Reeve put it in a vault. Almost anywhere in the world is safer than in his lap. The safest thing to do if he was actually altruistic would be to put into some else's care.

Yet it remained hidden until he revealed it. Imagine that.

 

[Roger]

I see we really are just going to ignore the proof they weren't planning to use Jenova's remains ...

I'm sorry, what proof is that?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I posted it on the previous page. Meanwhile, you're claiming that Rufus had Kilmister killed because he wanted Jenova's remains to create a cure for geostigma, when Kilmister never said anything of the sort. What he did say is that he wanted Jenova because he could use it to create something even more powerful than Sephiroth.

Rufus is explicit that he won't let Jenova fall into the hands of either mad scientists or Jenova's own remnants, and that he's going to end the nightmare his father started. These are his words.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Kadaj confronts Rufus about lying concerning Jenova's whereabouts, this is after they first were under the impression Cloud had it. Yes, I'm pretty sure the takeaway is Rufus told them Cloud was hiding Jenova.

I, however, am not sure. What purpose would he gain from telling them Cloud had it? Possibly he was hoping they would attack Cloud and Cloud would kill them, but a moment's thought would have made it clear to him that:
- there's no reason to suppose the three they see are all there is
- there's no reason to assume all three would have gone after Cloud
- there's no reason to suppose that they are killable.

Reno or Rude, recorded the forming of the Silver haired men at the Northern Crater. They know what they are and where they came from. Cloud had to hear about it from Vincent.

I thought it was a recording made and transmitted by Tseng or Elena, and interrupted by the Remnants. The first time you watched ACC, did you know instantly and beyond all shadow of a doubt who the Remnants were and where they came from? And you know more about this story than Rufus does. Rufus is making some educated guesses that they're connected with Sephiroth, but they're only guesses.

As for those "evil scientists", there was only one scientist interested in Jenova, he had this interest because he could use it to create a vaccine for Geostigma. He's mysteriously ended up dead though, after he told Rufus that unfortunately there was no cure for him.

I am pretty sure there were others. Kilmister was not a moral man. Maybe Rufus doesn't have a good track in that department either, but also, his encounter with Kilmister was part of what inspired him to try to change.

Rufus had the guy that pointed them in this direction killed and gambled the creation of the vaccine to Geostigma on the hopes that this person was right about the necessity for Jenova but wrong about there being hope for a cure. Then when the stakes got heightened and Sephiroth got involved, Rufus, happily in might add, by his own words, gambled some more with the fate of Planet. All for the cure to the illness he had. Rufus is in this for completely selfish reasons. That doesn't make him unmitigated evil but it is hardly a good form of atonement.

You're picking and choosing your information here - spinning it, one might say, in the manner of one of Trump's press officers. The Compilation is pretty clear about what Rufus is and what he isn't. He's not a hero like Cloud, but on the other hand he is willing to take responsbility for the mistakes of the company and he wants to help the world heal. Saying he "only" wants to cure himself is a bit dishonest. Of course he wants to cure himself! He wants to live! Wouldn't you? He's only, what, twenty-six years old? But he is also making sure that the medicine reaches as many people as possible. In the short time he's been in charge of ShinRa he has actually done quite a lot of good for quite a lot of people. That seems like a much better kind of atonement than shutting oneself up in a coffin or crystal for thirty years muttering, "I'm sorry" over and over.

 

[Roger]

I posted it on the previous page. Meanwhile, you're claiming that Rufus had Kilmister killed because he wanted Jenova's remains to create a cure for geostigma, when Kilmister never said anything of the sort. What he did say is that he wanted Jenova because he could use it to create something even more powerful than Sephiroth.

Rufus is explicit that he won't let Jenova fall into the hands of either mad scientists or Jenova's own remnants, and that he's going to end the nightmare his father started. These are his words.

Sorry, I guess I forgot that his conversation with Kilmister doved off in that direction at the end. But if Kilmister didn't imply that research of Jenova's remains will yield answers, while he did definitely state those already with symtomps can't be sabed, why is Rufus hanging onto them at all?

I, however, am not sure. What purpose would he gain from telling them Cloud had it? Possibly he was hoping they would attack Cloud and Cloud would kill them, but a moment's thought would have made it clear to him that:
- there's no reason to suppose the three they see are all there is
- there's no reason to assume all three would have gone after Cloud
- there's no reason to suppose that they are killable.

I think they wanted Cloud to start fighting Kadaj without giving Cloud to much reason to be angry at them.

I thought it was a recording made and transmitted by Tseng or Elena, and interrupted by the Remnants. The first time you watched ACC, did you know instantly and beyond all shadow of a doubt who the Remnants were and where they came from? And you know more about this story than Rufus does. Rufus is making some educated guesses that they're connected with Sephiroth, but they're only guesses.

Reno and Rude didn't leave Tseng and Elena behind for no reason, they saw what happened, or at least some of what happened. They know their new enemies kinda came into existence at the Northern Crater. Based on that Reno decided that Mother equals Jenova's friggin' head. Cloud ASKED them what they meant by Mother and they intentionally kept him in the dark, while trying to hire him to fight for them. How is that helpful?

I am pretty sure there were others. Kilmister was not a moral man. Maybe Rufus doesn't have a good track in that department either, but also, his encounter with Kilmister was part of what inspired him to try to change.

The supply of old business associates of Hojo's with their own personal project in mind for Jenova has to be fairly sparse at this point.

You're picking and choosing your information here - spinning it, one might say, in the manner of one of Trump's press officers. The Compilation is pretty clear about what Rufus is and what he isn't. He's not a hero like Cloud, but on the other hand he is willing to take responsbility for the mistakes of the company and he wants to help the world heal. Saying he "only" wants to cure himself is a bit dishonest. Of course he wants to cure himself! He wants to live! Wouldn't you? He's only, what, twenty-six years old? But he is also making sure that the medicine reaches as many people as possible. In the short time he's been in charge of ShinRa he has actually done quite a lot of good for quite a lot of people. That seems like a much better kind of atonement than shutting oneself up in a coffin or crystal for thirty years muttering, "I'm sorry" over and over.

He's holding the instrument of the Planet's doom in his hands while telling the guy that saved the world from Sephiroth that he doesn't know what is going on. Vincent is the reason Tseng and Elena survived Rufus' orders, Vincent is the reason Cloud knows this was about Jenova before he found himself staring Sephiroth in the face again, Vincent is one of the people that convinced the Cloud you mentioned was depressed and on the brink of giving up to keep fighting. Yeah I think Vincent had a better idea of how to turn a new page in life after his employment as a Turk was terminated, even with those thirty years in the coffin.

 

[Clement Rage]

1. Are you suggesting the Remnants would never have tracked Cloud if.... what? As far as I can remember, there is no reason to suppose that Rufus said "Cloud has Jenova" or that he "sicced" the Remnants on Cloud. Kadaj and Co could quite easily have found him for themselves.

The remnants go after Cloud, search his home and discover JENOVA's not there. Kadaj's immediate response is to go to Rufus and call him out on giving them a fake location, which Rufus acknowledges with 'this time you get the truth' What other interpretation is there? He told them Cloud had it, triggering them to attack him and search his home.

3. Rufus tells Cloud everything he knows.

"We found nothing." Lie.

"There are plenty of kids that miss their mothers." Not technically a lie, but implies that the SHM are just random kids when he knows otherwise. So functionally a lie.

"I'd never lie to a comrade." Lie. And that's not even including things that are possibly lies.

Lic already went over it better than I could have. Cloud was necessary because of his strength, but they had very little reason to think they could count on him.

All they needed to tell him was that he might be danger from superpowered killers. Over the phone. Not 'I've got work for you' 'you are in danger, watch yourself'. Not doing so amounts to deliberately endangering him. If they were simply hoping he'd win with no ulterior motives, then they would have done it, because they'd want to give him the best chance they could of victory.

Which proves that he's useful, not necessarily trustworthy.

He's already fought and defeated JENOVA, if she could puppeteer him, it would have come up then. Also, if Rufus thought Cloud could be controlled by JENOVA on proximity to her, the absolute last thing he would do is invite him to Healen.

He had plenty of idea after they attacked him. He didn't go back to the church, though, or even to check on Tifa and the kids. Dude was not handling things well.

He was attacked by two random dudes in the wilderness. He has no idea what just happened, and no reason to automatically conclude that they know where he lives. Rufus has this information, but fails to tell him any of it.

What's doubtful? That Reno and Rude didn't know? They didn't.

Doubtful that Rufus would suddenly start telling the truth after telling so many lies. What, Cloud was too hostile? It might have helped with that if he hadn't had his guards just attack him.

You omitted the part where the question he's responding to is if he regrets interfering in Sephiroth's resurrection ... and that the guy asking is the guy trying to revive Seph ... What are you looking for there? For Rufus not to have a dickish reply?

Not talking about how much fun he's having while watching Edge be levelled would be a start.Also, I read the conversation as

Kadaj: You know, you're the cause of all these problems in the first place, right?

Rufus: History is cyclical. We'll defeat the problems as they arise.

Kadaj: The problems you cause? You don't seem all that regretful.

Rufus: Why should I be? It's fun.

Kadaj didn't have Jenova cells, so he couldn't sense Jenova cells.

If Cloud could, he would've sensed it in Healen, so that's a loss too.

Yet it remained hidden until he revealed it. Imagine that.

And? Unless you're implying Rufus somehow had some special knowledge that Kadaj was physically incapable of searching him, that doesn't make it a good idea.

To convince me of Rufus' good intentions, you have to come up with a way to spin deliberately endangering an someone while withholding vital information from him as to the nature of the threat as a benevolent act, which I'm not buying so far. Even assuming he does want Cloud kept clear of JENOVA, he could still tell him about the remnants, before they've already attacked him. And no, 'I've got work for you' doesn't count. That's malevolence.

Wow, this debate is nostalgic.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Kadaj: You don't seem all that sorry.

Sorry? Why, I've never had this much fun.

Taking a sarcastic, off hand exchange literally is a pretty poor defense of any argument, man.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Seriously. Especially if you're going to ignore everything he said right before, as well as this look on his face right after (when Kadaj starts to summon Bahamut):

Spoiler: Look how much fun he's having!

I guess Reno meant it too when he told Yazoo he was having the time of his life after almost just getting blown up by Bahamut.

All they needed to tell him was that he might be danger from superpowered killers.

I think he'd figured it out by then ...

He's already fought and defeated JENOVA, if she could puppeteer him, it would have come up then.

It did. Temple of the Ancients? City of the Ancients? Reunion? Black Materia? Meteor?

Also, if Rufus thought Cloud could be controlled by JENOVA on proximity to her, the absolute last thing he would do is invite him to Healen.

I agree that looks like a tactical blunder, but do you really think Rufus didn't have that hidden gun of his trained on Cloud from under the sheet the entire time? Contacting him was still necessary (an act of desperation, no doubt) because he had the best chance of being a physical match for the threat at hand.

In any case, you at least need to concede that Rufus would be an absolute idiot to be giving Cloud everything he's got when this is the same guy who willingly handed over the Black Materia and let Meteor be cast. Call that less than altruistic if you want, but being that trusting would just be dumb in that situation.

He was attacked by two random dudes in the wilderness. He has no idea what just happened, and no reason to automatically conclude that they know where he lives.

More importantly, he has no reason not to. They ambush him in the wilderness and address him like they know who he is. He doesn't know who they are, except that they're hostile toward him. What would you think?

Also, I read the conversation as

Kadaj: You know, you're the cause of all these problems in the first place, right?

Rufus: History is cyclical. We'll defeat the problems as they arise.

Kadaj: The problems you cause? You don't seem all that regretful.

Rufus: Why should I be? It's fun.

Well, if you completely change the things that were said to misrepresent them, sure, you can make anything into anything.

This is an extremely straightforward conversation:

1) Kadaj said humanity (not Rufus specifically) was the cause of the nightmares, that Jenova had come to make things better, and that the nightmares would never end until the humans were gone

2) Rufus replied that, yes, mistakes will be repeated just as life is a repeating cycle, but that they (humanity) would never let the Jenovas and Sephiroths of the universe win

3) The question Kadaj then asked: "Is that your excuse for going after Mother? You don't seem all that sorry."

4) Rufus makes a snide reply about having fun
---

Rufus said he isn't sorry for interfering with Kadaj's intentions/Jenova's will/Sephiroth's resurrection. Anything else you read into it is something you're putting there, but not what was said.

Kadaj didn't have Jenova cells, so he couldn't sense Jenova cells.

If Cloud could, he would've sensed it in Healen, so that's a loss too.

I'm not sure what your point even is, but Cloud was inarguably still feeling Sephiroth's influence in the movie. He collapses twice while having visions of him. His eyes even change to look like Seph's.

Yet it remained hidden until he revealed it. Imagine that.

And? Unless you're implying Rufus somehow had some special knowledge that Kadaj was physically incapable of searching him, that doesn't make it a good idea.

And my point is that things ended up working out pretty well, so I'm not sure why you're so hung up on what you think should or shouldn't have been done prior. Cloud should have done a lot of crap differently too, but things still worked out.

To convince me of Rufus' good intentions, you have to come up with a way to spin deliberately endangering an someone while withholding vital information from him as to the nature of the threat as a benevolent act, which I'm not buying so far.

Okay, maybe you would trust someone who -- on the last occasion you saw them, no less -- you watched hand over the fuse to a bomb that would blow up the whole world. Maybe you would trust them with the fuse to the next bomb. If I'm in that room, though, I'm voting you don't get to make the decisions.

Wow, this debate is nostalgic.

 

[Roger]

There is a middle ground between giving Cloud everything and outright refusing to let the person you are counting on to save this situation out of the fire who they are and what they are after. And refusing to participate in initiatives to save children when asked. And things only worked out thanks to Aerith an x-factor they were not counting on. Cloud could have helped and I do mean help not take it himself, keep Jenova out of their hands if Rufus had been willing to tell him this was a factor.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Minato, you know Cloud could have helped and you know Cloud would not have given in to the promptings of his Jenova cells, but Rufus doesn't know this. He doesn't know Cloud as we do. He made the decision based on the information available to him. As Tres has pointed out, Rufus was absolutely determined that the biological material known as Jenova should never again fall into the wrong hands or be misused, and as far as he was concerned the best way to ensure this was to keep it on his own person and not let anyone know he had it.

I'm not convinced Rufus was counting on Cloud to solve the situation. I rather think Rufus thinks the only person clever enough to solve the situation is Rufus! I think he was counting on Cloud to keep the Remnants busy and buy time. His plan did not succeed!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not sure why you keep bringing Aerith up? Her intervention would have been needed regardless of how anything else was done. Cooperation, no cooperation; Cloud knows everything, Cloud knows nothing.

Also, I'm confused as to why you're giving the Turks crap for refusing to go after the kids when the dude asking them to do it was himself refusing to go? None of them were refusing because they didn't care, though. Cloud was worried he would make things worse; the Turks were backing Tifa's effort to push Cloud into action.

For that matter, all of them end up saving kids -- Reno and Rude included. They grab some as they run away from Bahamut.

Anyway, I already agreed that maybe Rufus should have shared more. I think a lot of people in the movie and the original game could have made better decisions. Most of them were just doing the best they could, though.

 

[Ite]

He even dismisses them as 'kids who miss their mothers' in person intentionally trying to lower Cloud's guard. That's the only reason to say that.

Just popping in to say that the script is obtuse and cryptic because the writer-programmers wanted it to be, not because any of the characters actually had motivations. Every scene with two or more men in the film boils down to checking the corners of the room and smirking at each other.

Have Reeve put it in a vault. Almost anywhere in the world is safer than in his lap. The safest thing to do if he was actually altruistic would be to put into some else's care.

Agree here too. I chalk it up to sloppy storytelling, working backwards from the EPIC REVEAL rather than starting with plausible motives and arriving at conflict and drama.

Calling Cloud at all is another totally baffling thing. There are obvious reasons why people outside of Cloud's inner circle would be reticent to trust him, so why call him to Healin at all? If he was afraid of Cloud's mind snapping, why invite him into this mess at all? Why not let him be a delivery boy in blissful ignorance, far away from the trouble in your lap? Or better yet, tell the SHM that Cloud has it while Cloud is relaxing at home and not driving around with a motorcycle full of swords?

 

[Octo]

sloppy storytelling

/thread

 

[Roger]

Minato, you know Cloud could have helped and you know Cloud would not have given in to the promptings of his Jenova cells, but Rufus doesn't know this. He doesn't know Cloud as we do. He made the decision based on the information available to him. As Tres has pointed out, Rufus was absolutely determined that the biological material known as Jenova should never again fall into the wrong hands or be misused, and as far as he was concerned the best way to ensure this was to keep it on his own person and not let anyone know he had it.

I'm not convinced Rufus was counting on Cloud to solve the situation. I rather think Rufus thinks the only person clever enough to solve the situation is Rufus! I think he was counting on Cloud to keep the Remnants busy and buy time. His plan did not succeed!

Rufus' behaviour: Telling them Cloud had it, calling a meeting with Cloud, deciding to risk showing Kadaj he had Jenova in order to destroy it the moment he sees Cloud fighting Bahamut SIN, are even more baffling to me if he had no faith in Cloud. To me his actions tell us he had faith that Cloud was the key but nevertheless wanted to hold on to his secrets.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing Aerith up? Her intervention would have been needed regardless of how anything else was done. Cooperation, no cooperation; Cloud knows everything, Cloud knows nothing.

Also, I'm confused as to why you're giving the Turks crap for refusing to go after the kids when the dude asking them to do it was himself refusing to go? None of them were refusing because they didn't care, though. Cloud was worried he would make things worse; the Turks were backing Tifa's effort to push Cloud into action.

For that matter, all of them end up saving kids -- Reno and Rude included. They grab some as they run away from Bahamut.

Anyway, I already agreed that maybe Rufus should have shared more. I think a lot of people in the movie and the original game could have made better decisions. Most of them were just doing the best they could, though.

I've brought up Aerith in response to the idea that things worked out fine. The whole affair with the SHM could not have gone worse; Tseng and Elena were kidnapped and rescued without any attempt at rescue from their compatriots, the kids were taken manipulated into working for them, Rufus was taken, Jenova fell into the wrong hands and Sephiroth was resurrected. Complete outside interference was what saved the Planet.
Rufus, Reno and Rude were involved in the from the very beginning and their only positive contribution is involving Cloud. Which is fine, given that Cloud saved the world from Sephiroth twice already. But if that's the plan, utter refusal to clue in Cloud to what's going on looks really really bad to me. And Cloud did go save the kids. After Reno told him to go instead of them. And Cloud is dying of Geostigma unlike them. Which resulted in a failure of said solo rescue effort.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I already said Cloud went to save them ...

It's starting to feel like you're deliberately not responding to what I'm actually saying. Also annoying how you just whizzed right on by the point about what happened when Bahamut showed up.

And again: Reno was only asked to go to the Ancient's city because Cloud asked him. And Cloud only asked because he was being too much of a bitch to do it himself -- which Reno and Rude clued into, and tried to give Tifa a hand. You seriously can't put what was Cloud's responsibility (Marlene and Denzel) off on the Turks

Fork's sake, who do you think got them the intel to begin with? They're the ones who found out where the kids had been taken. What sinister motive would you like to read into that?

And you want to talk about things working out: How would that have gone down if they had gone? Cloud himself just barely survived, and only that with Vincent's intervention.

As for Aerith, once again: She would have had to step in no matter what. You can bring her up in response to my observation that things worked out all you want, but that really just backs up what I'm saying. Better decisions maybe could have been made here and there by multiple people, but the effects of those different decisions would have been no better in the end. Overall, they got a really good outcome.

 

[Clement Rage]

I think he'd figured it out by then ...

He hadn't met them by the time of the first phone message. So no.

It did. Temple of the Ancients? City of the Ancients? Reunion? Black Materia? Meteor?

North Cave? Does Rufus think Sephiroth threw the fight? That the world was saved by coincidence?

I agree that looks like a tactical blunder, but do you really think Rufus didn't have that hidden gun of his trained on Cloud from under the sheet the entire time?

Which would have done exactly nothing to help. He's extremely unlikely to even hit Cloud, and even if he does it won't stop him quickly enough to matter, he'll be dead and JENOVA will be taken. If he believes proximity to JENOVA to be dangerous, that's another reason to explain everything over the phone.

But regardless, even if we believe that's a valid fear, Rufus still has no reason not to warn him about the superpowered killers as soon as possible. As in, instead of 'I've got work for you.' And then in Healen he downplays the threat. Let's say he doesn't say 'I have JENOVA'. If he has good intentions, he'd just say 'I don't know' rather than try to pass them off as random nuts. He deliberately tries to lower Cloud's guard.

More importantly, he has no reason not to. They ambush him in the wilderness and address him like they know who he is. He doesn't know who they are, except that they're hostile toward him. What would you think?

I'd assume it had something to do with that mysterious job Shinra has just tried to hire me for, and go looking for answers from them, and then walk out in disgust when it becomes clear they have vital information that they aren't telling me. Which is what he does.

I'm not sure what your point even is, but Cloud was inarguably still feeling Sephiroth's influence in the movie. He collapses twice while having visions of him. His eyes even change to look like Seph's.

My point is, if Rufus thought proximity to JENOVA was a risk for Cloud, he wouldn't ask him to come to Healen, because that would be a world ending mistake and his gun would make no difference to that outcome.

And my point is that things ended up working out pretty well, so I'm not sure why you're so hung up on what you think should or shouldn't have been done prior. Cloud should have done a lot of crap differently too, but things still worked out.

Because any way you slice it, it's a crazy risk to carry on your person a world dooming item when you know that a superpowered killer knows you know where it is and is coming directly after you.

Okay, maybe you would trust someone who -- on the last occasion you saw them, no less -- you watched hand over the fuse to a bomb that would blow up the whole world. Maybe you would trust them with the fuse to the next bomb. If I'm in that room, though, I'm voting you don't get to make the decisions.

If he subsequently had a breakdown over it, defused the bomb when no one else could, and you subsequently need him to do the same thing, do you tell him it's only a hand grenade, there's nothing to worry about?

For that matter, all of them end up saving kids -- Reno and Rude included. They grab some as they run away from Bahamut.

And if they were willing to brave the SHM that time, why not in the Forgotten City?

How would that have gone down if they had gone?

Maybe they could grab some kids and escape while the SHM are focused on Cloud? Or if the SHM actually pay attention to them, then that's one less for Cloud to worry about.

Just popping in to say that the script is obtuse and cryptic because the writer-programmers wanted it to be, not because any of the characters actually had motivations. Every scene with two or more men in the film boils down to checking the corners of the room and smirking at each other.

Heh. I was about to comment that AC was actually surprisingly consistent and well written underneath the flashiness.

Fork's sake, who do you think got them the intel to begin with? They're the ones who found out where the kids had been taken. What sinister motive would you like to read into that?

Easy. The plan is still to get Cloud to fight the remnants, so they need him to have a reason to hunt them down.

If he was afraid of Cloud's mind snapping, why invite him into this mess at all?

Yes. So either he wasn't, or it's a bad plan.

1) Kadaj said humanity (not Rufus specifically) was the cause of the nightmares, that Jenova had come to make things better, and that the nightmares would never end until the humans were gone

2) Rufus replied that, yes, mistakes will be repeated just as life is a repeating cycle, but that they (humanity) would never let the Jenovas and Sephiroths of the universe win

3) The question Kadaj then asked: "Is that your excuse for going after Mother? You don't seem all that sorry."

4) Rufus makes a snide reply about having fun

If that's the conversation, why does Kadaj expect him to regret it? Unless he's calling Rufus an example of humanity meddling with JENOVA and causing problems.

Let's take JENOVA out of the equation for a moment. Rufus doesn't have to give it to Cloud or say he has it, or even say 'it's in a secure location that shall remain nameless.'

What is your in universe explanation for Rufus withholding the rest of the information he has from Cloud, to the point of deliberately playing down the threat level? I keep asking this question and y'all keep ducking it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

North Cave? Does Rufus think Sephiroth threw the fight? That the world was saved by coincidence?

That doesn't prove much to someone who wasn't there, though. Rufus doesn't know anything about how the fight went down, whether Cloud broke Seph's control over him, how vulnerable Cloud may or may not still be to manipulation, etc.. He only knows what he's seen, and it isn't good.

We're talking about telepathic mind control here. You can't even compare it to addiction, though that seems the obvious place to go for a comparison in some ways (e.g. someone doesn't stop having an addiction because they resist the impulse one time). Rufus doesn't have a lot of data to draw on here.

And the part that doesn't involve mind control actually looks worse. Cloud wasn't being controlled at the moment he handed over the Black Materia.

Which would have done exactly nothing to help. He's extremely unlikely to even hit Cloud, and even if he does it won't stop him quickly enough to matter, he'll be dead and JENOVA will be taken. If he believes proximity to JENOVA to be dangerous, that's another reason to explain everything over the phone.

...

My point is, if Rufus thought proximity to JENOVA was a risk for Cloud, he wouldn't ask him to come to Healen, because that would be a world ending mistake and his gun would make no difference to that outcome.

You were the one to bring up proximity to Jenova. You and I both know -- as does Rufus -- that proximity was pretty much irrelevant the last time around. Sephiroth could exert his influence from anywhere in the world. He's doing it right that moment with geostigma.

And besides: Cloud already has Jenova inside him, so he's always in close proximity to it.

If Rufus is concerned that Cloud could be controlled, but he's still desperate enough to contact him for help, it's better to have him show up on Rufus's terms, find out what he knows, see how he reacts to bringing up sensitive topics, etc.

But regardless, even if we believe that's a valid fear, Rufus still has no reason not to warn him about the superpowered killers as soon as possible.

He was probably hoping Cloud would kill them the first time they went after him. Then he'd have nothing to explain to the guy who might still be susceptible to Sephiroth's puppetry.

Is that unethical? Well, it's not squeaky clean, but I'd call it more a calculated risk. It's not like he's trying to get Cloud killed. He's left him alone in the year and a half since they last parted ways -- he's just trying to deal with a world-ending crisis, he has few people he can count on, and he's desperate.

And then in Healen he downplays the threat. Let's say he doesn't say 'I have JENOVA'. If he has good intentions, he'd just say 'I don't know' rather than try to pass them off as random nuts. He deliberately tries to lower Cloud's guard.

You really need to decide on one argument here. Is he trying to get Cloud to deal with this world-ending threat he can't deal with himself or is he trying to set Cloud up to get killed by the threat, putting himself back in the position of being unable to deal with the world-ending threat? You're meandering.

He's not trying to lower Cloud's guard. He's just keeping his cards close to the vest because he doesn't know how much he can trust Cloud -- but he finds himself nonetheless in the uncomfortable position of needing to reach out to him for help. He tells him "You're all we have." He's not misleading him when he says that.

For that matter, he only downplays two notions: 1) whether they found anything; 2) the precise nature of the SHM.

As far as the first goes, it would have been dumb to tell him that right off the bat for reasons I've already gone over; plus, he needs to gauge Cloud's reaction to talking about that and Sephiroth. As for the second, Cloud's already going out the door at this point, so this alliance idea seems to be a bust.

Should he have gone ahead and said "Those guys kind of are Sephiroth in a way"? Yeah, probably. Like I said, a lot of things should have been done differently. Maybe he thought telling him that would lead to Cloud insisting on knowing why the SHM were after him, though -- in which case he'd have to reveal what he's holding. Which he probably didn't want to do if he couldn't get Cloud to agree to an alliance. For God's sake, if Cloud decided he didn't trust Rufus to hang onto something that dangerous, then Rufus has to deal with trying to keep this thing out of Cloud's hands too after he's already failed to defeat the SHM once.

It's really not hard to explain any of this if you think about it in practical terms of what you'd do in that position rather than with vague "he's being naughty" explanations that leave all kinds of holes in logic.

For that matter, though, it's not like Rufus didn't bring up that these guys were interfering in their effort to deal with Sephiroth -- whose mind he said he suspected was still alive within the Lifestream and causing geostigma. So, at this point, Cloud knows Sephiroth's spirit may still be alive, and that the superhuman assailants who just kicked his ass and could summon monsters also attacked the Turks while they were trying to counter Sephiroth. And on top of that, he knows that these guys attacked the Turks at the Northern Crater of all places, which is not exactly somewhere you'd expect to find some "random kids," as you called them.

If Cloud doesn't himself have some idea after all this that these guys aren't ordinary humans, and that they may in fact be connected to Sephiroth (who they look nothing at all like, right? ) ... and he's going to lower his guard after he already fought and lost to them ...? Then he's an even bigger moron than I thought and Rufus didn't need that kind of liability on board anyway. =P

I'd assume it had something to do with that mysterious job Shinra has just tried to hire me for, and go looking for answers from them, and then walk out in disgust when it becomes clear they have vital information that they aren't telling me. Which is what he does.

So you'd drive all the way to the mountains instead of hop back over to check on your place(s) nearby? After these obviously superhuman wackos kicked your ass? That doesn't strike you as questionable decision making?

Because any way you slice it, it's a crazy risk to carry on your person a world dooming item when you know that a superpowered killer knows you know where it is and is coming directly after you.

Any way you slice it, every option carried great risk. There were no easy options.

If he subsequently had a breakdown over it, defused the bomb when no one else could, and you subsequently need him to do the same thing, do you tell him it's only a hand grenade, there's nothing to worry about?

Clever though that is, Cloud didn't exactly defuse the bomb. He killed the guy who lit the fuse, which he had, in the first place, given to the guy who did the lighting. Someone else wrapped the bomb in a really thick blanket that somehow worked.

Also, I think you've got your steps out of order there a little. The breakdown is why he handed the fuse over in the first place.

And if they were willing to brave the SHM that time, why not in the Forgotten City?

Because Cloud needed to get his ass in gear. Though actually watching the two Turks in that scene again, it kind of looks like Reno does want to go, but Rude stops him and convinces him to tell Cloud to do it.

Maybe they could grab some kids and escape while the SHM are focused on Cloud?

Unlikely. Moving them a few dozen feet out of the range of an explosion after Kadaj has released his control over them is one thing; trying to grab while they're under Kadaj's control and exhibiting superhuman strength themselves? Probably wouldn't have gone well.

Or if the SHM actually pay attention to them, then that's one less for Cloud to worry about.

I suppose that's a reasonable point.

Easy. The plan is still to get Cloud to fight the remnants, so they need him to have a reason to hunt them down.

Wow. That is all.

If that's the conversation, why does Kadaj expect him to regret it?

Because he's been taken captive and will be killed?

Unless he's calling Rufus an example of humanity meddling with JENOVA and causing problems.

He never said anything about humanity causing problems by meddling with Jenova. He said they needed to be exterminated before Jenova ever got there, and that this is why she came. Go back and see for yourself.

What is your in universe explanation for Rufus withholding the rest of the information he has from Cloud, to the point of deliberately playing down the threat level? I keep asking this question and y'all keep ducking it.

It's been answered thoroughly. He has very little reason to trust Cloud, but he's in the desperate position of reaching out to him and maybe even relying on him in order to prevent a world-ending crisis. He genuinely believes the Maguffin of Doom is safest right where it is, and he has neither the time nor the means to quarrel with Cloud if he should disagree about that.

 

[Clement Rage]

That doesn't prove much to someone who wasn't there, though. Rufus doesn't know anything about how the fight went down, whether Cloud broke Seph's control over him, how vulnerable Cloud may or may not still be to manipulation, etc.. He only knows what he's seen, and it isn't good.

We're talking about telepathic mind control here. You can't even compare it to addiction, though that seems the obvious place to go for a comparison in some ways (e.g. someone doesn't stop having an addiction because they resist the impulse one time). Rufus doesn't have a lot of data to draw on here.

And the part that doesn't involve mind control actually looks worse. Cloud wasn't being controlled at the moment he handed over the Black Materia.

I find it unlikely that Rufus hasn't done everything he can to find out what happened there, but even so, he has to know that Cloud went in, survived, and stopped Sephiroth... he knows that "Sephiroth is dead". If manipulation would have helped, it would have been used then. So he knows that Cloud has managed to resist it in circumstances where it absolutely would have been brought to bear if the opposition could turn him. And knowing that JENOVA's in play and might be using mind control might actually help him resist it more than not knowing!

You were the one to bring up proximity to Jenova. You and I both know -- as does Rufus -- that proximity was pretty much irrelevant the last time around. Sephiroth could exert his influence from anywhere in the world. He's doing it right that moment with geostigma.

And besides: Cloud already has Jenova inside him, so he's always in close proximity to it.

If Rufus is concerned that Cloud could be controlled, but he's still desperate enough to contact him for help, it's better to have him show up on Rufus's terms, find out what he knows, see how he reacts to bringing up sensitive topics, etc.

I brought up proximity to JENOVA because you were using it as a reason not to give JENOVA to Cloud. If that's irrelevant, then there's no reason not to mention that it's in play.

He was probably hoping Cloud would kill them the first time they went after him. Then he'd have nothing to explain to the guy who might still be susceptible to Sephiroth's puppetry.

Is that unethical? Well, it's not squeaky clean, but I'd call it more a calculated risk. It's not like he's trying to get Cloud killed. He's left him alone in the year and a half since they last parted ways -- he's just trying to deal with a world-ending crisis, he has few people he can count on, and he's desperate.

If that was true, he would want Cloud to have have the best chance possible, which would entail explaining more of what he knows immediately. There is no excuse, at all, for not doing that if he had benevolent intentions.

You really need to decide on one argument here. Is he trying to get Cloud to deal with this world-ending threat he can't deal with himself or is he trying to set Cloud up to get killed by the threat, putting himself back in the position of being unable to deal with the world-ending threat? You're meandering.

Setting up a win win situation by setting two powerful people that don't like him against each other. If they kill Cloud, he's hoping that he takes one or two of them with him, and then turns them against Vincent, or whoever's next in line.

Maybe he thought telling him that would lead to Cloud insisting on knowing why the SHM were after him, though -- in which case he'd have to reveal what he's holding.

So Rufus isn't afraid at all of being interrogated by Kadaj, but would be unable to hide anything from Cloud?

For that matter, though, it's not like Rufus didn't bring up that these guys were interfering in their effort to deal with Sephiroth -- whose mind he said he suspected was still alive within the Lifestream and causing geostigma. So, at this point, Cloud knows Sephiroth's spirit may still be alive, and that the superhuman assailants who just kicked his ass and could summon monsters also attacked the Turks while they were trying to counter Sephiroth. And on top of that, he knows that these guys attacked the Turks at the Northern Crater of all places, which is not exactly somewhere you'd expect to find some "random kids," as you called them.

If Cloud doesn't himself have some idea after all this that these guys aren't ordinary humans, and that they may in fact be connected to Sephiroth (who they look nothing at all like, right? ) ... and he's going to lower his guard after he already fought and lost to them ...? Then he's an even bigger moron than I thought and Rufus didn't need that kind of liability on board anyway. =P

If he's banking on Cloud specifically drawing those conclusions...why does he flat out deny exactly that possibility when asked about it?

So you'd drive all the way to the mountains instead of hop back over to check on your place(s) nearby? After these obviously superhuman wackos kicked your ass? That doesn't strike you as questionable decision making?

Not at all. If he had the information right then that was being specifically withheld from him, then you might have a point. But as is, he knows nothing, needs answers, and has no reason to believe they'd target his home or know where it is... unless, say, he immediately led them directly to it? With the information he has, it's an easy assumption that they think he's carrying something for Shinra.

Also, they didn't kick his ass, it was basically a draw.

Any way you slice it, every option carried great risk. There were no easy options.

But almost all of them were better than keeping the artefact of doom on your person when the person that wants it knows you have it or know where it is, and you have no means to defend against them.

Clever though that is, Cloud didn't exactly defuse the bomb. He killed the guy who lit the fuse, which he had, in the first place, given to the guy who did the lighting. Someone else wrapped the bomb in a really thick blanket that somehow worked.

Which only worked because they guy that lit the fuse wasn't around to stop it. But, our metaphors are stretching.

Because Cloud needed to get his ass in gear. Though actually watching the two Turks in that scene again, it kind of looks like Reno does want to go, but Rude stops him and convinces him to tell Cloud to do it.

And they couldn't follow him anyway because...

Unlikely. Moving them a few dozen feet out of the range of an explosion after Kadaj has released his control over them is one thing; trying to grab while they're under Kadaj's control and exhibiting superhuman strength themselves? Probably wouldn't have gone well.

Where have they demonstrated superhuman strength, being under Kadaj' control (which doesn't happen until the lake) and how would Reno and Rude know about that?

It's been answered thoroughly. He has very little reason to trust Cloud, but he's in the desperate position of reaching out to him and maybe even relying on him in order to prevent a world-ending crisis. He genuinely believes the Maguffin of Doom is safest right where it is, and he has neither the time nor the means to quarrel with Cloud if he should disagree about that.

Well, he could just not tell him where it is, like he does Kadaj... unless he's somehow afraid Cloud will be able to get it out of him while completely confident that he can withhold the same information from Kadaj?

If JENOVA couldn't be given to Cloud because she could exert her influence on him, which she could do anyway if, as you've argued, geography is irrelevant to this, then it doesn't matter if he's told about her or not... it might even help him resist her influence if he knows it's a possibility

If proximity does matter, or Rufus fears that proximity matters, he wouldn't want Cloud anywhere near him. Either way, his plan doesn't work if the fear is that Cloud will just take JENOVA or fall prey to her influence.

Also, it's not a binary situation of keeping JENOVA or giving her to CLoud, he could find someone else to keep it safe that Kadaj doesn't know about.