Best And Worst Parents Of Final Fantasy 7

[jazzflower92]

Mostly because of how all the characters had a giant dump taken on them in Advent Children, to be perfectly honest.

At least in the original game, you had the complex exploration between social responsibility vs personal responsibility (as Splintered's post summarised). AC Barret is basically like "WELL YUP I'M JUST GONNA CONVENIENTLY ABANDON MY DAUGHTER AGAIN SO THE WRITERS CAN HAVE A CONVENIENT EXCUSE TO SHACK UP THE MAIN CHARACTERS."

If I remember he was going back to Corell so he could rebuild it.And he left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa's care.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I thought he was on a business trip and called her regularly. A father having to travel to find work and leaving his child with a friend who's in a postion to care for her doesn't seem too bad to me.

In another thread we had a long drawn out discussion on what is or isn't child abuse, and came to the conclusion it's in the eye of the beholder and bad parenting probably is as well. But I also agree with Hawkeye who observed

Where I draw the distinction for abuse: willfully damaging behavior.

I don't think Barret would ever intentionally hurt Marlene and he does care about her and her future. I think we should also look at the circumstances he's raising her in. In many countries children as young as Marlene are given adult responsibilities. Children in tribes in South America who go hunting and handle machetes.

This is an interesting article about how parenting varies in cultures

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert

I think in the Midgar slums kids as young as Marlene have to grow up fast. Barret does what he can for her. Although I honestly think the best thing he could have done would have been to find a home for her with someone who wasn't running a terrorist organization. But whose to say there was anyone who could take her or that there weren't tons of kids on the streets.

I don't think Barret is a bad parent so much as he's in a bad environment to be a parent. I never got the impression that he didn't love her or care about her and for her. There's no social safety net in this world, he's doing the best he can in the situation.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think the only person who can make the call on whether Barret is a bad parent is Marlene herself. "Good parenting", like good teaching, is not a one-size-fits-all; you have to take into account the character of the parent, the character of the child, the situation in which they find themselves, the limits of the possibilities available to them, and the dynamic between them. Barret's trying to juggle an awful lot of responsbilities; Marlene, young as she is, seems to realise this. She knows he loves her. She knows he's doing his best.

 

[looneymoon]

The fact that it isn't a really natural progression of what we saw of the character in FF7 mostly. His main motivation, as a character, was to save the world from the evil corporation so that he could see his kid grow up in a better place. AC comes around and and that bolded part gets thrown out the window. Sure it would make sense for the character to want to rebuild the planet after it saw devastation. It doesn't really make sense for the character to continuously do so in favour of being with his daughter. Which is what he was fighting for in the first place. A fight that he won.

Not to mention the Compilation's shifted focus onto Marlene. Even as a primary character, she is still a passive agent who doesn't have very strong feelings about this whole situation. Or if they do, they are barely-explored afterthoughts which doesn't lend to very good storytelling.

No, instead we get an entire novella and anime about some unnecessary plot-device character.

 

[Splintered]

Is there a fundamental difference between a child of a military parent who is gone for a large portion of the time and Barret's actions throughout the Compilation?

Well there is a bit of a difference that the military is a job and Barret went on a soul searching mission. Although later, it turned out he did have a job finding oil fields, so it's possible that he does have a permanent job there, but rather than take Marlene out of a somewhat stable environment, he visits frequently.

But other than that, I was kind of thinking the same thing too. I was raised for a good part of my early childhood on a military base. Lots of the kids' parents frequently went on TDY, and if they were especially unlucky, both parents were in the army and they went away at the same time. Some kids handled it better than others.

I do have to agree with looney though, even with this, I just don't think AC/C did enough to really establish the core Barret/Marlene dynamic. In the OG, Barret's actions were called out, discussed, he thought about Marlene often- and thought about the reason he left to fight Shinra for anger, and eventually reached the conclusion that he would fight for Marlene rather than anger. It was an important point, but with AC/C it was just left unexplored.

But I think that's just the writers fault rather than Barret's.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The fact that it isn't a really natural progression of what we saw of the character in FF7 mostly. His main motivation, as a character, was to save the world from the evil corporation so that he could see his kid grow up in a better place. AC comes around and and that bolded part gets thrown out the window. Sure it would make sense for the character to want to rebuild the planet after it saw devastation. It doesn't really make sense for the character to continuously do so in favour of being with his daughter. Which is what he was fighting for in the first place. A fight that he won.

Not to mention the Compilation's shifted focus onto Marlene. Even as a primary character, she is still a passive agent who doesn't have very strong feelings about this whole situation. Or if they do, they are barely-explored afterthoughts which doesn't lend to very good storytelling.

No, instead we get an entire novella and anime about some unnecessary plot-device character.

HEY WHAT ABOUT MY QUESTION LOONEY

Good post, though. However I think that a thing we have to remember is that we're looking at the situation from a reader point of view; we view FF7 the Game and FF7 the Movie as separate events, separate struggles, but as far as the characters are concerned, its the same stretch of life.

To Barret, finding an alternative for the world to run on may fall into the same overall goal of a better world as the goals set in the original game.

 

[Vendel]

Well given what a poor parent Barret is I guess letting Tifa and Cloud do the actual raising of her is the best decision he has made.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In addition to what Mog just said, I would also argue that Barret's struggles are less about seeing Marlene grow up as about providing her a world to grow up in. As far as it goes, he knows he's not the right person to be raising her; he left her behind for a reason this time when he went to be of use to the world.

EDIT: Goddammit, Vendel.

 

[jazzflower92]

Speaking of parents how about we talk about Cloud's mother who from we have seen has raised her son all by herself.Cloud really seemed to be a mama's boy when he was young and was really devastated when she was killed by Sephiroth.

 

[looneymoon]

@Mog: I'm not sure how to answer your question based on what we know of the story. Like I said, Marlene doesn't have significant enough character exploration for me to apply it to the complexities of any real-life family dynamic.

I don't think that the experience of a well-adjusted kid in a military family can be so grossly over-simplified in the way it is in the FF7 compilation.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm not sure how to answer your question based on what we know of the story. Like I said, Marlene doesn't have significant enough character exploration for me to apply it to the complexities of any real-life family dynamic.

I don't think that the experience of a well-adjusted kid in a military family can be so grossly over-simplified in the way it is in the FF7 compilation.

No, but the base implication I got was that 'Barret left kid alone. Bad parent.', when military kids have to put up with the same thing.

In addition to what Mog just said, I would also argue that Barret's struggles are less about seeing Marlene grow up as about providing her a world to grow up in. As far as it goes, he knows he's not the right person to be raising her; he left her behind for a reason this time when he went to be of use to the world.

EDIT: Goddammit, Vendel.

I'm actually surprised that SE even acknowledged the need for an alternate energy source after Mako. Pulling the energy source from an industrialized society is a good recipe for complete social collapse. It's a wonder that Gaia has made it this far as it is.

 

[looneymoon]

No, but the base implication I got was that 'Barret left kid alone. Bad parent.', when military kids have to put up with the same thing.

Well, yeah actually? It's not exactly absurd to take neglect as an indicator of bad parenting. I never claimed that it's impossible for kids to be well-adjusted in these situations, but it's still a pretty big no-no. It's at least something the character struggles with in the original game.

In addition to what Mog just said, I would also argue that Barret's struggles are less about seeing Marlene grow up as about providing her a world to grow up in. As far as it goes, he knows he's not the right person to be raising her; he left her behind for a reason this time when he went to be of use to the world.

So basically he was doing half the things Tifa reamed Cloud out for in the bedroom scene

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, yeah actually? It's not exactly absurd to take neglect as an indicator of bad parenting. I never claimed that it's impossible for kids to be well-adjusted in these situations, but it's still a pretty big no-no. It's at least something the character struggles with in the original game.

I'm not belittling your opinion, but I can't really wrap my head around the idea of a military kid being inherently the victim of bad parenting. Some kids have parents where their job, as in, the very thing that puts food on the table (among other needs) in the first place, fundamentally requires them to be away. I'm not sure I get it.

 

[ForceStealer]

Do we know just how long Barret's soul-searching mission was? Is it really from the moment they rebuild 7th Heaven to the Bahamut attack in Advent Children? I thought by Advent Children he had just settled into a job as an oil prospector and was currently away looking for oil.

I guess it's not clear, but by the end of Case of Barret, he still hasn't had his transforming gun-arm fitted yet, has he? So it's not like that book takes us right up to the movie.

(not that this changes the discussion, I'm just curious. And that I don't think he left her for 2 solid years)

 

[looneymoon]

Upon reflection, I don't even think Barret's situation can really be likened to having a job. He already has a job (I assume) at the bar. He's partaking in radical political activism, which is much different. He takes funds from his kid's education to help fuel it. Yeah it's a complex situation, but it's still a pretty bad thing to do to your own kid (and it is something that is explored in the original game - but hey, none of the characters are perfect people).

As far as his situation in AC, maybe then he's not actively draining on the resources put towards his kid's future, but he is once again falling into the same pattern of behaviour where he's putting his own dreams before being an active presence in Marlene's life. It's not that he's just absentee now, his absenteeism is built upon a history of suspect behaviour.

If we're taking the narrative as a whole, Barret's parenting decisions just become increasibly a gigantic cluster of selfishness and how the fuck are the writers even trying to characterise you.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If we're taking the narrative as a whole, Barret's parenting decisions just become increasibly a gigantic cluster of selfishness and how the fuck are the writers even trying to characterise you.

It is established that at least part of Barret's motivation is selfish revenge. That is true. But it is also true that his actions will directly lead to a better world, and he eventually grows past that. By the time the final fight with Sephiroth comes around, Barret has had numerous chances to drop the facade and quit while he was ahead. When you consider the narrative as a whole his actions were due to making the world a better place for his daughter, even if just subjectively.

He may have started the fight against Shinra for selfish reasons, but he sure didn't go on to save the world from an omnicidal manaic and ensure society didn't collapse afterwards for the same selfish reasons.

This is why I posed the military analogy for it, which I'm still waiting for a direct answer to.

 

[jazzflower92]

It is established that at least part of Barret's motivation is selfish revenge. That is true. But it is also true that his actions will directly lead to a better world, and he eventually grows past that. By the time the final fight with Sephiroth comes around, Barret has had numerous chances to drop the facade and quit while he was ahead. When you consider the narrative as a whole his actions were due to making the world a better place for his daughter, even if just subjectively.

He may have started the fight against Shinra for selfish reasons, but he sure didn't go on to save the world from an omnicidal manaic and ensure society didn't collapse afterwards for the same selfish reasons.

This is why I posed the military analogy for it, which I'm still waiting for a direct answer to.

If you want to call someone selfish I would point to the bad old Dr.Hojo.Sure,Barret might have done things to get revenge against Shinra but eventually his love for Marlene led him to question himself and what he truly was fighting for.Barret might have crossed some lines but at least he eventually learned to really see what was important in life and look at what he needed to truly do in order to make the world a better place for his daughter.

Hojo doesn't give two cents about the world and sees his son as an experiment that needs to blossom.His obession with science is more important him than being a parent and he actually tries to help Sephiroth destroy the planet by powering him with the Sister Ray.The fact he had no qualms about experimenting on his own son when he was still a fetus shows he doesn't even value his child's saftey.Barret may not be perfect but Hojo is probably the poster man for being a selfish parent.

In my opinion Hojo and Barret could be a compare and contrast between each other when it comes to being a parent.Barret would sacrifice his saftey for his child while Hojo had his son's whole life be treated like a science experiment.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Military analogy is appropriate, I think, as would be an analogy involving the children of medical professionals and first responders. They often don't see their parents for a week at a time. I should know. I'm helping raise one such kid.

 

[jazzflower92]

Not to mention how Barret takes his role as a father seriously while Hojo never really gives much thought about fatherhood.Hojo always seems to be a scientist before anything else.Everything to him is just frivolous and is just a distraction from him obtaining more research.

 

[looneymoon]

It is established that at least part of Barret's motivation is selfish revenge. That is true. But it is also true that his actions will directly lead to a better world, and he eventually grows past that. By the time the final fight with Sephiroth comes around, Barret has had numerous chances to drop the facade and quit while he was ahead. When you consider the narrative as a whole his actions were due to making the world a better place for his daughter, even if just subjectively.

He may have started the fight against Shinra for selfish reasons, but he sure didn't go on to save the world from an omnicidal manaic and ensure society didn't collapse afterwards for the same selfish reasons.

This is why I posed the military analogy for it, which I'm still waiting for a direct answer to.

But it's not an apt comparison because it's not presented in such a way that what he's doing is 100% good? I'm not saying that saving the earth for his kid is selfish. I'm saying putting his own life goals ahead of being there to raise his daughter is selfish.

The military comparison is not apt because this isn't his job. This isn't how he directly supports his kid. In fact, it's presented in the story as a drain. It's justified because he does succeed, but the moral complexity comes from the fact that success is never a sure thing. The narrative of FF7 shows him acknowledging that his actions against ShinRa were selfish, and he gets over that and spends the last night on earth with his kid. Because that's where his heart is.

ACC shows his repeating the sort of behaviour which is aligned to the same selfishness he realises isn't very good in the original game. He's going about MORE activism in favour of working and supporting his daughter (which is supposedly his prime motivation), making his friends do it instead. It just doesn't make much sense when he has that option, plus the lessons he learned from the previous game. "Ensuring society doesn't collapse" is a poor justification for his character - he's not even operating within Marlene's social space any more - it'd be much more understandable if he went into the building of Edge or something.

If I'm going to take the writing is as it is, then it really does seem as though the writers are portraying a selfish asshole. If I was going to be critical of the writing, they're fucking up portraying the moral complexities of a radical family man and making him come across as a selfish asshole.

 

[Pixel]

I think Barret knew that Marlene would be raised alot better by her mother, Tifa. She had always taken that role in her life. I know that it was bad for marlene for him to leave, but he did phone her every day, which is more than alot of absentee parents do. And everything he did was for marlene. That's why I put her in the Case of Barret cover art.

Not trying to excuse him, but my dad worked away on ships when I was that age, and was never there. He had 5 kids during that time, and i dont consider that he was a bad parent back then


On another note, didnt reeve still live with his mother, Ruvie?

 

[Ite]

I'm actually surprised that SE even acknowledged the need for an alternate energy source after Mako. Pulling the energy source from an industrialized society is a good recipe for complete social collapse. It's a wonder that Gaia has made it this far as it is.

Yeah because replacing a metaphor for fossil fuels and human greed with actual fossil fuels and human greed is great storytelling. I really feel like I saved the world.

Also, Looney is saying everything I could ever want to say.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah because replacing a metaphor for fossil fuels and human greed with actual fossil fuels and human greed is great storytelling. I really feel like I saved the world.

I guess powering a post industrial society that's principal energy source vanished overnight on rainbows and butterflies instead is a better idea.

 

[Ghost X]

FFVII-2 has the original protagonists as pro-oil villains, and the new bunch of heroes as eco-terrorists fighting the threat of climate change. Sounds awesome .

 

[jazzflower92]

To the subject of worst parents in Final Fantasy 7 it defiantly have to be Hojo in first with President Shinra leading second and Lucrecia in third place.I really am disgusted that President Shinra abadoned the mother of his child without any care.Then again the man has been a callous sack of manure his whole life.He ran his company on corruption and evil.I have a feeling President Shinra had a very tough love sorta of relationship with Rufus and often was emtionally neglectful of him.

Hojo on the other hand had no interest in fatherhood.His son was just a science experiment who he happened to be related to.He only was interested if his son was getting stronger.And Sephiroth has shown time and again he really hates the man.Heck,he even says to not even try rescuing him when some monsters attack the Shinra building.