Best And Worst Parents Of Final Fantasy 7

[Octo]

Agg on phone so I can't really read the whole thread in depth so sorry if this has already been said.

@the military kid thing. Generally a child of a military family is given a heads up and kept informed. And even if something last minute happens its not instant y'know? Plus one would imagine that the kid was going to be looked after by the same people each time (grandparents or whatever) So I don't know if the same parallel can be drawn with Marlene.

That and even if Marlene wasn't running a bar, Seventh Heaven with its saloon door isn't exactly secure. If any of us read in a newspaper about a four year old being left alone in bar in a shitty neighbourhood (because thats what the slums are) then yeah - neglect, bang to rights. And to top that off its not just any bar, its a 'terrorist' hideout. What if Shinra had turned up?

Yes Marlene probably is a strong person (though maybe her little drawing of a 'family' is telling I dunno) but I was looking through it from a real life point of view, I find it very hard to believe that someone who experienced what she experienced could be 100% fine with it all. So I guess it is just down to bad writing/flimsy plotting. Just like how Cloud takes in Denzel and then fucks off on him, didn't anyone consider the implications of this? But yeah, the compilation isn't really good at handling supporting characters or main characters

 

[Flintlock]

Don't get me wrong, I really like Barret, and I think it's big of him to admit to both poor judgement and ulterior motive. I also know that he loves Marlene more than anything else in the world. I still don't think that's enough to make him a good parent though. As I proved in my most recent playthrough of VII, Cloud is more than capable of defeating Sephiroth by himself. Barret could have gone back to look after Marlene at any point

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Barret is prone to fits of rage and makes irrational decxisions. He knows this and recgonises that his character flaws make him unfit to be a leader. If he also recognises that his profound guilt and the anger issues that flow from it make him unfit to be a father, then it's probably better that he isn't Marlene's primary caregiver. Like he said, he wants to be with her, but he "has to" fight. Someone who's always losing their temper and picking fights is wise if he knows he should let someone else care for his child untl he's sorted hmself out. It would be different if Marlene wasn't confident that he loves her, but she knows he does.

 

[Octo]

^agreed

I cant help feeling that he could channel that into something useful closer to home. I mean Edge probably needs some form of policing or security. Not that he'd have to be out of the loop entirely in the search for an alternate fuel source, they have mobile phones and email after all.

 

[Fangu]

Re: the Barret discussion, even though he goes away and doesn't stay with Marlene, at least he visits. He calls. He probably sends presents, postcards, whatever to let her know he always thinks of her. For those of us who's experienced a parent going totally "I'm gonna ignore u for the rest of ur life (until it makes me feel so bad about myself I'm gonna do a 180 and demand a place in ur life)" there's a different from being absent and really absent.

Zack's mom and dad. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

That brought a goofy smile to my face Zack reminds me a little of my beloved in that sense, who grew up with two loving and patient parents. Their family had their worries of course, but they appear to be very harmonic, and... well, family life seemed to come naturally. Which is how I see Zacks parents as well. Zack is the type of guy you picture as a wonderful father. You know, the cliché picture of a bare chested man with a tiny baby in his arms.

*swoons a little*

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Seriously, Barret's entire arc has been about ultimately doing right by Marlene. If that means leaving her in the care of people better suited to taking care of her, so be it. That isn't selfish. Selfishness would be insisting on being her primary caregiver when he knows he is unfit.

Also, looney, I love you, hon, but I'm totally baffled by your reading of Barret. I don't see how fucking off to the other side of the planet away from the daughter he longs to be with so he can ensure she has a safe, stable world to grow up in is pursuing his own dreams at her expense. His dream is to be with Marlene and raise her properly. He knows he isn't in the right place to do that, though, and so he does the best he can by her in the interim by ensuring society doesn't fall into tribal disputes and civil war over what scant resources were initially available -- and that is what would happen.

That's what damn near every war in the history of ever has been about. Resources.

You can't take the only energy source an industrialized society has away from it overnight and expect folk not to fight over their remaining resources if a substitute isn't found on an, at least, short-term basis.

Yeah because replacing a metaphor for fossil fuels and human greed with actual fossil fuels and human greed is great storytelling. I really feel like I saved the world.

There hasn't been an element of greed attached to the oil thing yet. While that is a realistic inevitability (people like Shera, Barret and Cid won't live forever, after all; President Shinra's ancestor in X-2 was a good person), something needed to take mako energy's place, and quickly. They can sort out alternative energy sources later, when they have time to while not killing each other over mako engine reserves and the like.

VII -- heck, Final Fantasy in general -- was never really about solving all the world's problems for all time. There's always a sobering reality that comes with whatever happiness that is achieved. These stories don't end on a note of "happily ever after." It's more like "life goes on." VII is the best example of this, what with On the Way to a Smile. Other powerful examples include X-2 (the Eternal Calm was nearly lost to the same kind of divisions between people that led to Sin's creation in the first place) and VIII (despite one of the happiest endings in all of FF, the future will still be laid to ruin by Ultimecia).

By the way, you did save the Planet, Ite. Drilling up oil isn't going to kill it, either in the game or real life. The shit might (i.e. will) run out, there may be climate change associated with it, it may even become a somewhat less inhabitable place to dwell -- but the world will not crumble into dust in space because of it.

Not that I'm pro-oil or anything, but I've never understood the "stop killing the Earth" appeal. The Earth doesn't give a shit. FFVII's planet gives even less of a dump since it lives on spirit energy, which is no longer being sucked out.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I think Barret's efforts are to make a better world for Marlene and I do agree that he's also doing it to be a better person and thinks he isn't good enough for Marlene at his current state. He trusts Tifa and Cloud and I doubt he would leave Marlene to anyone who's incapable. Also, Barret always calls Marlene and that's very much a good thing.

I think the effect of this will even be positive long term, when Marlene grows up she'll realize what her father has been doing for the world and will take him as a role model. She'll want to learn about Corel, her parents and everything and I think what Barret is doing for his own self-development will prepare him for that.

 

[Carlie]

You know, the cliché picture of a bare chested man with a tiny baby in his arms.

Someone draw a picture of that please, pretty please. This must happen.

 

[Octo]

This is the original http://markgorman.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/athenaperry_228x273.jpg

 

[Fangu]

This is the original http://markgorman.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/athenaperry_228x273.jpg

Oh late 80's/ early 90's! I remember my best friends older sister had several posters of bare chested men in jeans with about the same haircut, photographed with about the same lighting and later post-produced into that same brown reddish color as that picture. Now that I think about it I think she had a postcard with that exact picture on it hanging by her desk

Yes, someone should draw a Zack picture in the same style

 

[Teioh]

This

Spoiler: pic

has always been my dad's fave. It's of him and my brother aged 6 months and taken in 1983 ^.^

OT: Always had a soft spot for Zack's parents myself.

 

[Splintered]

There hasn't been an element of greed attached to the oil thing yet. While that is a realistic inevitability (people like Shera, Barret and Cid won't live forever, after all; President Shinra's ancestor in X-2 was a good person), something needed to take mako energy's place, and quickly. They can sort out alternative energy sources later, when they have time to while not killing each other over mako engine reserves and the like.

I agree with this, oil has negative implications of greed here, but not in VII. Considering that the populace is so terrified of using Mako, and are emotionally traumatized of geostigma which I think had at least the rumor that it was the planet's way of revenge, they are entirely conscious on how energy affects the environment. Barret also makes a point of saying that they would stop from being greedy and making sure they only take what they need, and the fact that Cid and Barret (probably one of the most socially conscious of the group) are heading the project means they are doing it carefully.

iirc, the reason he wanted to use mako of all things is because they didn't have basic things like easy transportation, that's potentially disastrous. The only other inuniverse sources of energy is coal, and if we're comparing energy sources, coal's not exactly the world's most clean energy either, and has already been said to be obsolete compared to mako.

As far as Case of Barret goes, I think parts of make sense. Barret going out to find purpose in a world without fighting, make good with his inner demons, trying to find to make the world a better place is in character. It sounds like the kind of man, who after losing anything, goes to Cosmo Canyon and learns about the planet to rationalize going after Shinra.

But dumping Marlene doesn't sound like him. Barret's life revolved around Marlene and wanting to be with her, and there are barely mentions of it in CoB. The story could have been rewritten so that she was with him, or least the fact that he left her was a difficult decision he wrestled with.

At least they established Barret being in contact with Marlene. I like that little scene in CoT where Marlene is telling him about Tifa's and Cloud's fights, because it feels like Barret is the person Marlene can confide in emotionally.

 

[ForceStealer]

And I still think using fossil fuels is better than the Planet's SOUL. Also the game basically says the Corel...ians should have stuck with coal and not Mako. So I'm not sure how much of an allegory Mako is for fossil fuels in terms of pollution, but rather the hoarding, greed and power it gives Shinra.

Or, as usual, everything Splintered said.

 

[jazzflower92]

Not to mention that Barret feels partially responsible for Corel's destruction.If I remember he felt guilty that he didn't listen to Dyne about putting in a Mako plant.I think the reason why Barret focuses on rebuilding Corel is because he has vowed to find other ways to help the world.He also wants Marlene to have a stable home so he puts her with people he trusts.

 

[looneymoon]

Also, looney, I love you, hon, but I'm totally baffled by your reading of Barret. I don't see how fucking off to the other side of the planet away from the daughter he longs to be with so he can ensure she has a safe, stable world to grow up in is pursuing his own dreams at her expense. His dream is to be with Marlene and raise her properly. He knows he isn't in the right place to do that, though, and so he does the best he can by her in the interim by ensuring society doesn't fall into tribal disputes and civil war over what scant resources were initially available -- and that is what would happen.

That's what damn near every war in the history of ever has been about. Resources.

There's an inherent sense of hypocrisy here because this is exactly the thing he came to terms with in FF7, and a good chunk of why Cloud was being a douche-canoe during AC. I'm not saying I reflect poorly on the character. It is a very legitimate fault he has as a person - that's what makes a good character. But the terrible writing does seem to define him by his faults.

And yeah, Ite brought up the point of replacing a metaphor of social greed with a real-life example of greed. Way to go Square. I hardly call that "ensuring societal collapse" as you put it. At least, it's hard to impose that reading when he's going around digging for oil (wtf Square really??? did you not think that one through at all???). It's just an extension of the behaviour from the previous game and it's terribly frustrating to see.

The theme of the compilation focuses on family and yet... the family man of the story isn't around? Wtf am I supposed to think? It would be different if the world was portrayed as actually, you know, being on the cusp of war. I'm not saying that's a realistic possibility, but that does not exist within the narrative from what we've seen (or from what I remember at least). You're inserting headcanons.

It could be a really interesting to explore though. Controversies over uses of oil. I'm not saying it could be. I just find it sad that we have to shoehorn these ideas into a story which suffers from abysmal writing.

 

[ForceStealer]

As Splintered pointed out, there is no greed regarding oil in FF7's world, though, at least not yet. It was completely forgotten when Mako came along because it was superior in just about every way. Now that Mako's out of the picture, they have to go to some other power source. The fact that electricity hasn't completely disappeared is probably a large part of why the world has remained as stable as it has.

Greed may well follow, maybe even with whatever Rufus is planning, but when our world gets off oil and we switch to another power source, don't you think greed will simply switch to that new source?

And again, I think we might be overestimating the amount of time Barret is 'abandoning' Marlene. FF7 is probably the longest stretch of time he's gone without seeing her, and that was 2 months. I have gone 2 months without seeing a family member, it's not the end of the world - but I know that Marlene's situation is a hell of a lot less stable than mine. Now post-FF7 I presume that he's gone while on prospecting missions and sees her in between. Just like Cloud is gone for extended periods making deliveries and then might be back for a few a days.

You lose me on the leap from "he should be around more" to "fucking selfish asshole."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There's an inherent sense of hypocrisy here because this is exactly the thing he came to terms with in FF7, and a good chunk of why Cloud was being a douche-canoe during AC.

I'm not sure I see what you mean. What he came to terms with in VII was fighting for Marlene vs. fighting for revenge, wasn't it? So, that's what he's doing now. Still fighting for Marlene, only doing it without his gun arm (as you'll recall, the attachment on his arm was the metaphor Case of Barret wrapped around).

If you're referring to guilt (I assume so, because that's what Cloud was dealing with), while he's certainly dealing with that, it's more than just that. Barret knows he's not the right person to take care of this child, and it's presented to us, not in a mopey "I need to get over myself and stop being a doucher"-kind of way like with Cloud, but in a legitimate fashion. We get the sense that he's absolutely right.

At any rate, Barret initially leaves for the purpose of settling his demons. He stays gone because of what he discovers along that journey -- that he can help the world (i.e. Marlene) more by doing this oil thing.

And yeah, Ite brought up the point of replacing a metaphor of social greed with a real-life example of greed. Way to go Square. I hardly call that "ensuring societal collapse" as you put it. At least, it's hard to impose that reading when he's going around digging for oil (wtf Square really??? did you not think that one through at all???). It's just an extension of the behaviour from the previous game and it's terribly frustrating to see.

I just don't see it. How is keeping society running with an energy source it desperately needs at all the same kind of behavior as running around blowing shit up and killing people? One was born of revenge. The other, making the world a safer, more stable, better place for his daughter.

"I'm gonna live, so the living have a tomorrow."

That's one of Barret's final thoughts in Case of Barret. And his very last is about Marlene. I just don't see where the Barret who was blinded by revenge enters into this equation.

The theme of the compilation focuses on family and yet... the family man of the story isn't around? Wtf am I supposed to think? It would be different if the world was portrayed as actually, you know, being on the cusp of war. I'm not saying that's a realistic possibility, but that does not exist within the narrative from what we've seen (or from what I remember at least). You're inserting headcanons.

Case of Shin-Ra presents a very tumultuous atmosphere. People are already breaking into factions, following whoever presents themselves as the best leader (leaders knocking one another off included), collecting what reserve resources remain.

If the oil hadn't come along, and socially conscious leaders like Reeve, Rufus, Barret, et. al. hadn't arisen, I see no reason to expect that wouldn't have continued.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

If I missed someone else saying this, I'm sorry, but am I the only one who put Barret's post FF actions together with his encounter with Dyne and had a certain synergy there? Dyne tells him to take care of Marlene because he has too much blood on his hands (and is too batshit) to do it himself. Barret realizes he doesn't deserve Marlene either, since his hands aren't any cleaner. Over the course of the rest of the game Barret moves from "take horrible revenge on the Shinra!" to "fix the world so my kid can live a long happy life."

The Compilation just continues that thread. Barret realizes that he's still not, at least in his own mind, worthy of raising Marlene. He still has too much blood on his hands. He goes on a journey to settle his past and get over that. To steal a quote from Black Widow, he's got red in his ledger and he'd like to wipe it out. In the process, he finds another thing that needs doing to make the world stable and safe for his daughter and he jumps on it. Thanks to his past, he's the sort of guy who can wade into a monster's nest looking for oil and actually come back out to tell everyone what he found.

I look at the Compilation and I see Barrett turning his past into an asset. All that combat experience, his past as a coal miner, etc being put to work to make the world a better place. He's cleaning the blood off so he can be a better father.

 

[looneymoon]

eugh.

I just can't buy any of these excuses for such terrible writing I'm sorry.

It's just presented so badly with so many problems that I just can't even sort out.

In fact the more I think about it the more I just lament how much the compilation has turned almost all the characters into these entities I can't bring myself to even like any more (this includes Cloud, Tifa et al.)

 

[ForceStealer]

I just don't see it. How is keeping society running with an energy source it desperately needs at all the same kind of behavior as running around blowing shit up and killing people? One was born of revenge. The other, making the world a safer, more stable, better place for his daughter.

"I'm gonna live, so the living have a tomorrow."

That's one of Barret's final thoughts in Case of Barret. And his very last is about Marlene. I just don't see where the Barret who was blinded by revenge enters into this equation.

How is that making excuses for shitty writing?

The people debating you over this point, with the exception of maybe myself, have a documented history of giving the Compilation tons of shit every time it deserves it (Tres and Mog in particular), why would they start making excuses here?

 

[looneymoon]

I just don't buy it. That's all. I just don't think it's very well presented and the story hasn't done anything to make me believe those points. The more I've distanced myself from this particular work, the more I realise how much of a bad taste it's me with.

That's literally it.

 

[jazzflower92]

Now how about Genesis's parents I know that they adopted him and he kills him once he finds out his true origins.Yeah,they might have been connected with Shinra but it looks like they truly cared about him and loved him like he was their own birth son.

 

[ForceStealer]

I guess, we hardly know anything about them besides some text.

 

[jazzflower92]

I guess, we hardly know anything about them besides some text.

Yeah,but from the text alone I think they pretty seemed to be good parents to Hojo.I mean almost any parent is better than Hojo.I mean you have to be jacked up person to experiment on your own unborn child and gleefully see him as a science experiment.Genesis really doesn't seem to be greatful that his adoptive parents at least care about him because he could have had Hojo for a father.

 

[SirVival]

I would like to say Hojo, as he raised a child who can pretty much do everything in the world. The methods may have been a little bit rash, but definitely nobody can even compare to Hojo's parenting skills when it comes to giving your child the the best weapons and skills to survive in the modern day world.

In before the shitstorm, I will just mention my counter-argument is already prepared.