Buffyverse Discussion (Spoilers)

[Lex]

its not gay if you move his arm for him

But anyway, that's pretty win

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^If I ever went gay for anyone other than James Marsters, it'd be either you (Lex) or Tres So there's that.

 

[Tetsujin]

Also, apparently Emma Caulfield has a youtube channel.

 

[Ami]

27 things you never knew about Buffy the Vampire Slayer

 

[Fangu]

^ some of these I didn't know! Cool

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm surprised (and ashamed) that I didn't know more than half of those.

 

[Lex]

That one about the stunt coordinator dude was interesting. I read the full original story.

 

[Claymore]

I'm surprised (and ashamed) that I didn't know more than half of those.

I did worse, lol. I only knew like 3!

 

[Ami]

Going through a marathon of all seven seasons right now (for UK users, they're all on Netflix) and I just finished the season two finale. I forgot how emotionally charged the whole thing was with Angel's death and Buffy's grief causing her to leave Sunnydale. :/

I have all five seasons of Angel downloaded (why that's not on Netflix, I have no idea), so I'm going to alternate between watching that and Buffy when I get to season four. I think I've missed half of Angel, so it'll be interesting to fill those missing gaps.

 

[Lex]

^I did that before, it definitely makes for interesting viewing but you end up getting annoyed that you're interrupting your own enjoyment of each story, since they're both so separate (beyond season 1 of Angel anyway). The Faith arc on Buffy season 4/ Angel season 1 and Buffy season 7/ Angel season 4 is outstanding though.

 

[Ami]

Faith was definitely the highlight of Buffy season 3 for me and I was flabbergasted to hear Eliza Dushku turned down her spin-off show in favour of Tru Calling. I'd like to think she'd go back one day and do it, but I doubt it since if it gets brought up now, her age will be mentioned.

I also recall hearing somewhere that if Angel had a season six, Oz would have become a main/recurring character. But of course, it never came to pass.

 

[Lex]

That and Cordelia would have apparently turned up again.

 

[Ami]

Anthony Head talking about the show's popularity.

 

[Ami]

Started season 3 and my God, I forgot how the first few episodes could pull at the heartstrings. Just finished the episode where Buffy left the ring at Angel's place and he came back. So she finally decides to move on and then he comes back unexpectedly, so typical for Whedon!

They just don't make TV like this nowadays, it must be one of the reasons why it's aged so well.

 

[Lex]

I have real problems watching season 2, which is one of the reasons I'm always so surprised to find it's most people's favourite season (mentioning Angel's ring brought it to mind). I think people like it so much because of the large romance/angst arc, which is well written, but it just doesn't cut it for me.

I prefer storylines that dive into the mythology of the slayer, which is why I think seasons 3, 5 and 7 (and ofc restless from the end of season 4) are my favourite to watch.

That and the quality of the actual film increases dramatically during season 3. Season 1 and 2 are almost painful to watch now. The most dramatic quality change is of course season 4.

 

[Splintered]

I actually liked the later seasons of Buffy as well, it hit some lows, I found Riley and lots of season 4 dull, and parts of the character degregation in season 6 pretty frustrating, but it hit more highs as well.

 

[looneymoon]

I think writing for TV has def. improved since Buffy ended. But man, this show still stands out. It will forever hold a very special place in my heart. It definitely set a lot of benchmarks for sure.

I think it balances camp silliness and drama in a way that remains engaging. It was very well-rounded in that regard. It had a little bit of everything - even if a lot of it is dated. A lot of the trends in the 90s come off as really distasteful nowadays

 

[Lex]

I actually liked the later seasons of Buffy as well, it hit some lows, I found Riley and lots of season 4 dull, and parts of the character degregation in season 6 pretty frustrating, but it hit more highs as well.

I find the overall arc of season 4 pretty shoddy compared to the rest of it, but it does have good character development and every single time I'm watching the show through I am amazed by how enjoyable season 4 is with some of the moments in it, because a part of me feels like it's a hump to get over so I can see the really good stuff. It really is the odd one out season-wise, but it's so filled with small hilarious moments, some of which made me cry with laughter (Giles as a demon scaring Prof. Walsh anyone).

But idk, I suppose I prefer the operatic drama interspersed with that signature Buffy light-heartedness. There's a lot of that in Season 5, and Season 7. The real problem with Season 6 - and I really hate myself for saying this fucking cliched phrase - is that it's "too dark". It's not that the storyline is too dark, because there's darker stuff in other seasons, it's the absence of the comic relief. And it feels odd to be saying that about the season that contains once more with feeling. "Once More With Feeling" is up there in the top 5 of episodes for most fans I'm sure, but even that feels depressing as fuck when you hit the end of the episode. And then Tabula Rasa, which is also an amazing episode follows right after and that's even MORE depressing. Then the season kind of hits a low point.

It's really stark and bleak which don't get me wrong fits well with the events and themes of the season, but it suffers from dragging-it-out syndrome in all of the darkest parts of its storyline. Willow and Buffy's pain and the reasons for that pain were incredibly important parts of the show, and they did them justice by showing just how isolating those issues made them as people, but I think it would have benefitted from shorter arcs that maybe didn't overlap quite so much. Maybe it's shitty of me to want them to get over their issues faster than would be realistic, but it's just kinda painful to go through every time I want to watch it, and it's another season with some amazing moments. I actually still prefer it to season 2 though XD.

I think writing for TV has def. improved since Buffy ended. But man, this show still stands out. It will forever hold a very special place in my heart. It definitely set a lot of benchmarks for sure.

I think it balances camp silliness and drama in a way that remains engaging. It was very well-rounded in that regard. It had a little bit of everything - even if a lot of it is dated. A lot of the trends in the 90s come off as really distasteful nowadays

Buffy is hands down still my favourite show of all time. I'm ridiculously attached to some shows now, but Buffy beats them all. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen it from start to finish, and I'm about to do it again (I think Netflix has it in HD, I've got all the DVD's but netflix is easier, I just hope they haven't fucked with the music). I really love Greys Anatomy, which a lot of people write off because it's a medical drama (why), because it's mainstream garbage (it's popular for a reason!) or because it's too dramatic (entirely fair. The main characters have had countless deaths, plane crashes, drownings, boat sinkings, hospital shootings, bombs going off etc etc etc it goes on). BUT I discovered halfway through season 3 or something that half the Buffy writers write for the show, which didn't surprise me at all. The comedic/ dramatic writing is very very similar and the Buffy-isms are well present. There's still a heroine (who it took me 6 years to even like (good character development), It just happens to be about surgeons instead of vampires!

Idk I think I'll forever be chasing the high I get from the Buffyverse. It's always there to welcome me home any time I want to dive in, and it's part remembering how I felt, where I was and what I was doing when I first watched it, and part sheer joy at how happy it makes me to experience the journey again.

If we want to talk about depressing Buffyverse episodes though, we want to talk about Angel. All 5 seasons of Angel are like season 6 of Buffy on crack, just not quite so... out of character. For some reason I find Angel really easy to watch now, but the first time I watched it I spiralled into an absolute depression when I hit season 4 (dark. DARK). And then season 5 happened lol omg lets not go there.

I came to Angel late though. I watched every episode on VHS when I was 15ish (my friend had them) from start to finish then bought them all on DVD soon after. I understand the kind of aversion some Buffy fans have to Angel, it's an unknown entity. But I absolutely believe it's needed to feel the full effect of the universe. It's very different, but dammit it's just as magical, just a little bit more grown up and serious. If you're a fan of Buffy and you haven't seen Angel, you're missing out. Seriously.

 

[Splintered]

I think writing for TV has def. improved since Buffy ended. But man, this show still stands out. It will forever hold a very special place in my heart. It definitely set a lot of benchmarks for sure.

I definitely feel like the first two seasons are really dated which is why I find it hard to like. I didn't catch it until much later because I missed the initial running (I wasn't technically living in america during the time) and watched it many, many years later. But the later seasons feel like they really stand the test of time, both Angel and Buffy.

I find the overall arc of season 4 pretty shoddy compared to the rest of it, but it does have good character development and every single time I'm watching the show through I am amazed by how enjoyable season 4 is with some of the moments in it, because a part of me feels like it's a hump to get over so I can see the really good stuff. It really is the odd one out season-wise, but it's so filled with small hilarious moments, some of which made me cry with laughter (Giles as a demon scaring Prof. Walsh anyone).

I think the only reason why I don't straight up hate or like season 4 is because I marathoned the entire show and... I don't find it memorable. There's nothing that really stands out to me except me being sad Oz is gone, and really great final episodes that work the main three in such a wonderful way. There were also some really great episodes in them, some you mentioned, but I just really tie it to the season as much as just thinking "ah, back to form."

The real problem with Season 6 - and I really hate myself for saying this fucking cliched phrase - is that it's "too dark". It's not that the storyline is too dark, because there's darker stuff in other seasons, it's the absence of the comic relief.

Season 6 definitely felt really heavy handed, all the time. I managed to get past this quickly as well, but it's really sad when you start to get frustrated at characters you begin to love. I think it's actually phenomenally written, with some amazing episodes, but watching everyone regress was like hurrggggggno.

Season 5 remains as my all time favorite season. For reasons.

I'm also a huge fan of Angel. Season 1 felt dated to me as well, but it hit it stride pretty quickly.

idk, there's a ton of reasons why I like Buffy. For one, fun writing. I read once that the issue with Joss Whedon was that he always goes for the funny, witty dialogue but at the expense of natural feeling dialogue (they were comparing the writing of Dragon Age to Joss Whedon), but that's what makes me like it.

When the drama is good, it's good, but it can always dial back and make you laugh.

And there's of course, the likeable characters, not only that likeable characters with depth AND the ability to bounce each other seamlessly- the ability to take two characters, pair em up and know how they'll react to each other. Good villains like The Mayor, Wolframan Hart, Glorificus (maybe that's why I didn't like season 4, boring villains). The ability to make fun of itself. A decent mythology. All that good stuff.

 

[looneymoon]

Season 6 was so bleak it kinda makes me feel ill, I agree.

Honestly my love for this show has gone on for so long that I could probably appreciate each season for their own merits... if I had to list them from favourite to least

3, 5, 6, 2, 1, 4, 7

I agree with Lex that things involved with "Slayer lore" are my favourite - hence 3 and 5 being at the top. 6 and 2 are up there just because I think the arcs in those seasons really stand out. 1 comes before 4 and 7 just for sheer charm factor.

4 is kind of hard for me to rag on because so much of it is so good, but also just... falls weird and flat. It's a weird "transition" season. The whole surviving-supernatural-teen-slasher-movie-high-school is finished. You're essentially entering the "Saved By the Bell: The College Years" point of the show. It's just a weird season.

7 goes at the bottom because? Idk idk. I think 7 was a lot of really cool and big ideas that weren't executed as well as they could be? Idk I have just never really dug this last season. I think it just feels weird and surreal when you're rebounding from S6. I dunno.

 

[Ami]

I can't help, but find myself agreeing with the points raised about seasons 4, 5 and 6. Riley as perhaps the most "normal" relationship (well, let's face it: Angel and Spike were the only other ones and Riley could be seen as that because he's a living, breathing human) started off as promising, but I quickly got bored. The whole transition from school to college did a well, but at least it brought us Tara (whose death still shocks me to this day because it just came out of nowhere). However, I do count the Faith episodes as some of my favourites because I love her character and seeing her as Buffy really showed her in a different light.

I'd say 5 was my favourite as well due to standout moments like Joyce's death, Tara's insanity and the entirety of "The Gift". I see it as the season where everyone really grew up and the addition of Dawn and her story was very nice.

6 was very dark and the comedic moments were definitely lacking as a result. However, I think it had to happen for Willow. I loved dark!Willow and having one of the core characters turn into a villain was just devastating, but intriguing as a viewer. Having Buffy tun to Spike was also understandable since she was in a really bad place and couldn't speak to anyone else.

I can't wait to get through the show again. I'm going to flick between this and Angel when I get to season 4, as it's something I never got to do back in the day because of the stupid ridiculous broadcasting. I have all the seasons downloaded and ready to go!

 

[Lex]

7 goes at the bottom because? Idk idk. I think 7 was a lot of really cool and big ideas that weren't executed as well as they could be? Idk I have just never really dug this last season. I think it just feels weird and surreal when you're rebounding from S6. I dunno.

Most Buffyverse fans - including me, agree that there's something fundamental missing from Season 7. It's like... it kind of has everything you could want - we're over the depressing stuff from season 6, the whole original scooby gang is back together, it's like a bit of a homecoming after season 6 the same way season 5 is to season 4, but it still falls short somewhere. Season 7 at the beginning is absolutely where the show needed to go - back to its roots but not ignoring the progression. But STILL, something is up. I've never been able to work out what it is. Maybe it's Spike XD.

Also IMPORTANT: did you guys know that Fox is currently remastering the whole series in widescreen HD? It's all been put together from the original shots, the CG and music from the earlier seasons has been redone - and there are actual widescreen (not cropped!) shots from season 1 and 2.

However, they've completely fucked it up. More on that in a bit.

Joss Whedon has said time and time again that Buffy was never meant to be viewed in Widescreen, because he planned, framed and filmed it in 4:3 as that was how it was meant to be seen on TV, so he's super against this widescreen remaster. I don't think he's against the retouching of the CG and the HD-ifying, just making it widescreen.

I'm in the give me widescreen HD camp tbh. Fuck the creators original intent XD, I really don't care if I'm seeing an extra tree or two I shouldn't be seeing if there's extra stuff there and it fills my screen, I'm happy, because to be frank the DVD's look trash on my HDTV. And I despise black bars.

HOWEVER BACK TO THEM FUCKING IT UP:

The HD episodes are apparently airing on pivot, and here's a handy video detailing some of the terrible errors the team (I suspect it's one or two people) have made while "re-mastering" it.

So it seems that the people at Fox have access to this original footage and are sorting through it, basically re-piecing together every episode. Obviously this is the case if they've accidentally used a wrong take XD.

But yeah some of those errors are unforgivable. HOWEVER, if they sort these issues out, entire Buffy/Angel HD Widescreen Blu-Ray collection? Fucking yes please. YES. PLEASE. I NEVER thought I'd see Buffy in HD, especially the earlier seasons.

Apparently region 2 (we in the UK and Europe) have always had Seasons 4-7 in Widescreen, but that must have come with a later box set release because I have widescreen starting with Season 6 (my 4 and 5 are 4:3 like in the US, so I must have one of the earlier box sets). The US has had 4:3 with every box set release.

To add to the cray weirdness, I checked Netflix. Netflix has season 4, 6 and 7 in Widescreen, but season 5 is randomly not widescreen even though we know a widescreen version exists. That's the same on both UK and US Netflix (thank you Hola). Also Angel isn't on UK Netflix, but the entirety of Angel exists in Widescreen on US Netflix (kinda makes the opening graphics look weird but other than that YAY MORE STUFF).

idk I respect the creators intent with the way stuff is filmed, but I'm too... what is the word... materialistic? or something to care about keeping it in 4:3. I'd rather it filled the whole screen. Knowing that there are widescreen versions of every season available somewhere makes me furious because I'd rather watch them done right than half a screen with black bars on either side.

 

[ultima espio]

I only got the complete series in 2012, not ready to buy them again in HD ;_;

They'll need to sort that stuff out, it's nice to see new lightning and the overall quality a bit better, but some of that was outright terrible.

Seeing a crew member just stood in the middle of the scene was hilarious though.

 

[Tetsujin]

Blu-ray please. Widescreen, no. If it was not meant to be, it was not meant to be. I watched them in widescreen and at times I remember like a broom guy standing to the side of the screen that would not have been there if it was 4:3.

(Not watched that video yet, gonna do that now)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

On HD:
God, HD looks like such shit. I want to be immersed in the fiction, not watch what looks like "making of" footage. I watched all three "Expendables" films yesterday on Blu-ray with a friend of mine on his super HDTV, and every time we had to pause it to get food, go to the bathroom, let the dogs out, etc. it took me about 20 minutes to stop feeling like I was watching "Entertainment Tonight" reporting from the set of the movies rather than watching the actual films.

On dark seasons:
I always thought season 4 of "Angel" was way darker than season 6 of "Buffy" -- but then I thought season 7 of "Buffy" was more depressing than its season 6. The "Angel" season is still the most make-me-want-to-kill-myself, though.

Also, ITT:
Lex and his "Shiny."