Character Battle SF1: Cloud vs Vivi

Which of these characters do you prefer?


  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .

penandpaper

Pro Adventurer
and then it has to happen again in advent children because square enix thinks fans can't cope with a non-messed up cloud

I don't really think it's fair to say that it all just happened again. FFVII showed Cloud accepting his issues, but not really dealing with the consequences of what they'd mean to him. There's no time for that kind of self-reflection in the game. The world was about to end, after all. It was time to act. Thinking and reflecting could come if they didn't all die.

The On the Way to a Smile Novellas and Advent Children Complete follow up having him deal with those issues in what I thought was a very realistic way (That isn't to say that it wasn't a poor way for him to go about it because I agree that his approach wasn't a great one, but I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that it was a realistic one and, in general, I think that it was. People do display the kind of behaviors that he shows in real life when dealing with traumatic events.). As the dust settles and the world is no longer in danger, he has time to finally mourn for Aerith and Zack (As well as his mother and his village as a whole, which is actually something that I wish that they hadn't glossed over.), to reflect on all that has happened including his own perceived failings, and he has to struggle with all that while dealing with the fact that he has missed out on five important years of emotional development given his time trapped as Hojo's experiment and the year after that which he spent unconscious. On top of that, there were added stresses like Geostigma and having to relearn how to fit back into the world as it is now while learning his new role in the family.

I mean, you don't have to like how it was handled of course or even agree that it should have been dealt with at all, but I think that it's unfair to say that it all just happens again. They're different issues and the latter ones are really a continuation of the former.

Just a thought though. :)
 
I could be wrong but I think Aki's referring to that quote that basically said, "people didn't identify enough with non-messed up Cloud, so we had to throw him into something that would make him messed up again".
 

penandpaper

Pro Adventurer
I could be wrong but I think Aki's referring to that quote that basically said, "people didn't identify enough with non-messed up Cloud, so we had to throw him into something that would make him messed up again".

But... does that make the issues dealt with by the later material any less justified? I'm talking more about the presentation admittedly and I thought that made sense. Cloud's reactions weren't just repeating earlier issues, but dealing with the consequences of them as well as the additional pressure.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
But... does that make the issues dealt with by the later material any less justified? I'm talking more about the presentation admittedly and I thought that made sense. Cloud's reactions weren't just repeating earlier issues, but dealing with the consequences of them as well as the additional pressure.

Maybe they'd be justified if Cloud's emotional problems were a hanging issue from FF7. Or if CoT/AC actually showed him being unable to save others, losing his confidence and validating his slide into depression.

But, no. His problems were completely contrived to repeat the same emotional journey. Cloud falls apart, his friends help put him back together, he regains his confidence, and everything resolves in a defiant one-on-one victory over his arch-nemesis. In the process mental weakness became his trademark and now Cloud is extremely unlikable to a lot of fans.

It's fiction. Literally anything can be justified. But just because it can be rationalized doesn't mean it makes for good storytelling. What if Cloud goes through the same process a third time? Or a fourth? Does it matter that it could happen to someone in real life?
 

penandpaper

Pro Adventurer
Maybe they'd be justified if Cloud's emotional problems were a hanging issue from FF7. Or if CoT/AC actually showed him being unable to save others, losing his confidence and validating his slide into depression.

They were a hanging issue though. He may have accepted all that happened, but there's nothing that shows him dealing with it all. Not that I saw anyway. He barely has time to mourn for Zack and Aerith, his low self-esteem is still present and it isn't going to go away just because the game ends, and he still has to deal with the consequences of all the things that he went through which wasn't minor. There is a difference between accepting something and dealing with it. You can know something is true and still not have dealt with the emotional consequences of it. There is no time in game for Cloud to deal with his issues. The world is about to end, so he has to keep moving and deal with that element later assuming that he even survives.

But, no. His problems were completely contrived to repeat the same emotional journey. Cloud falls apart, his friends help put him back together, he regains his confidence, and everything resolves in a defiant one-on-one victory over his arch-nemesis. In the process mental weakness became his trademark and now Cloud is extremely unlikable to a lot of fans.

He falls apart because he gets buried in the emotional turmoil that came as the result of both the consquences of all he's been through and difficulties in coping. That's actually not an uncommon reaction to traumatic events. All in all, I think you can make a pretty strong argument that Cloud's suffering from a serious case of PTSD and that it's justified. It isn't like he cut his finger here. Not only did he start of with serious self-esteem issues, but he then watches his town burn, spends four years as a science experiment, watches his best friend die protecting him, has his own personality overtaken by a secondary one, watches another friend die after almost killing her himself, becomes convinced that he was constructed which leads him to give help Sephiroth with his plan (Giving him the Black Materia), etc. This is a lot to deal with and while I agree that he accepts it, I'd like to see where he has the time to deal with the emotional fallout of all this. There isn't time so he buries that part of it until the dust settles, at which time it all comes crashing down on him again. When the new stuff is added to it, he finds himself really struggling to deal with it all. He is missing five years of emotional development after all.


It's fiction. Literally anything can be justified. But just because it can be rationalized doesn't mean it makes for good storytelling. What if Cloud goes through the same process a third time? Or a fourth? Does it matter that it could happen to someone in real life?

That's not true that everything can be justified. Some things just don't make sense, but in this case Cloud's reaction is a reasonably realistic one and is one that many people fall subject to when they endure traumatic circumstances. Would it really have been more realistic for the creators to go "Issues? What issues? ... The game ended. All that stuff he went through? Well, that didn't really affect him. He's all better now!"

My issue is that it's not the same process, but a reasonable continuation based off of stuff set up by the original game. Cloud is not dealing with the same issues, but the fallout of the events of the game and the new stuff introduced like the prospect of his own death and that of another loved one (Denzel). That isn't the same.

Bah, I feel like I'm not explaining myself very well. I should stop trying. I'm sorry if I'm being unclear. Eventually I'll learn to keep my opinion to myself. :(

Edit: And it is different when there's a clear wrap up and when there isn't. The original game doesn't establish that Cloud's issues are all better, at least not that I could see. ACC concludes what the original began and from what little is seen of Cloud in DoC, that development held as it should following an ending which does show him having dealt with the issues instead of just accepting them.

As for your last point, I don't know. That would be up to you, I guess. I like when characters have realistic reactions rather then unbelievable ones (And, yes, I'd argue that Cloud's reaction is a very realistic one and it is one that happens.). One of my biggest pet peeves is assuming that the end of the game means that everything is all better, but I can't speak for anyone else. The fact that they tried to deal with Cloud's issues instead of handwave them away was something that I liked. But that's me. :) I don't think that they could get away with doing it all again since ACC is largely about Cloud dealing with the issues and coming to terms with his past, which he does. They don't appear to be going that path. Cloud accepts all that happened in FF7, deals with the emotional fallout in ACC (as well as all the new), and then appears to have moved on by DoC. Seems like very reasonable, realistic development to me, but that's just an opinion.
 
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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
I didn't honestly expect Cloud to be totally fine and dandy post OG just because he defeated Sephiroth, having a few issues/regrets would have been natural. Its more the way in which he chooses to deal with those issues, by isolating himself that I find.....well to be perfectly blunt its a kick in the cunt :monster:

Its like he learned nothing, Tifa helped him regain his true self in the lifestream, and he had the support of all his friends and yet he doesn't turn to them or confide in any of them. It's kind of insulting, what do these people have to do to gain his trust?
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
Vote for vivi, I will show you boobies
 

penandpaper

Pro Adventurer
I didn't honestly expect Cloud to be totally fine and dandy post OG just because he defeated Sephiroth, having a few issues/regrets would have been natural. Its more the way in which he chooses to deal with those issues, by isolating himself that I find.....well to be perfectly blunt its a kick in the cunt :monster:

Its like he learned nothing, Tifa helped him regain his true self in the lifestream, and he had the support of all his friends and yet he doesn't turn to them or confide in any of them. It's kind of insulting, what do these people have to do to gain his trust?

Asking for help is something that's hard to learn, especially when he already doesn't feel worthy of all he has and he doesn't want to be a further burden. Is it a stupid decision? Yes, but emotional reactions often aren't rational. How many people turn away from their family when they're suffering to protect them, even though they should do the opposite? Is it an unrealistic decision to make? Is it really hard to believe of someone, especially for a person who is missing five years of emotional development?

I'm not saying that you have to like it, but I find it a pretty reasonable reaction. He's trying to protect his loved ones from his issues by dealing with them on his own. It's not the "right" decision, but it's a realistic one to make, in my opinion.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Reasonable? Maybe.

Poorly presented and written? Hell yes.

It just didn't fit with everything that happened in FF7, they made it seem like Cloud had learned nothing at all, after SO MUCH happened.
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Squenix knew that in order to rope in FFVII fans they would have to basically repackage what happened in the OG. Giving Cloud a terminal illness was a cheap plot device and a tacky way of manipulating the audience. But you know, they were never out to win a Pulitzer with AC. It was just a glorified tech demo where people could whoop at Cloud & Sephiroth dicking each other with giant sw0rdz again.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
:doh: Ninjad by Dac and Masa!

@penandpaper: I do get what you're saying, and people do that in real life. I suppose the problem is that for me - the audience - I can see the seams, I can see the story writers brains ticking over saying 'Ok how do we get this guy to go back to being the moody sod he was for most of the game?'

On top of that they make the other characters a bit ineffectual, Tifa knows something is wrong and tries to address the issue but she doesn't persist (during CoT) I just feel like a more realistic reaction for her would be to get angry, give the guy a good shake and say 'TALK TO ME!' but it doesn't happen and he continues to isolate himself.
 

penandpaper

Pro Adventurer
Reasonable? Maybe.

Poorly presented and written? Hell yes.

It just didn't fit with everything that happened in FF7, they made it seem like Cloud had learned nothing at all, after SO MUCH happened.

I'm not going to argue your opinion. I disagree that it didn't fit, but that doesn't really matter. I just wanted to present my thoughts, so now I'm done.

Agree to disagree? :)
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I should stop trying. I'm sorry if I'm being unclear. Eventually I'll learn to keep my opinion to myself. :(

Is being disagreed with really that distressing?

@ the rest: The point. You're missing it. Nomura said point blank that Cloud was a positive, upbeat character at the end of FF7 and they made him depressed on purpose. SE was determined to make a profit, so they fell back on proven formulas. Cloud does not have lingering issues to resolve at the end of FF7 such that it needs a novella and an entire movie to resolve. You can find reasons to justify it all day long, but in the end we got something that was trying really damned hard to be the old product, but also look like a new product.
 

penandpaper

Pro Adventurer
:doh: Ninjad by Dac and Masa!

@penandpaper: I do get what you're saying, and people do that in real life. I suppose the problem is that for me - the audience - I can see the seams, I can see the story writers brains ticking over saying 'Ok how do we get this guy to go back to being the moody sod he was for most of the game?'

On top of that they make the other characters a bit ineffectual, Tifa knows something is wrong and tries to address the issue but she doesn't persist (during CoT) I just feel like a more realistic reaction for her would be to get angry, give the guy a good shake and say 'TALK TO ME!' but it doesn't happen and he continues to isolate himself.

Again, I won't argue your opinion. I had some issues here and there with the overall handling, but I thought that for the most part it made sense.

For Tifa, I could see why she wouldn't want to confront him. She isn't the sort to try to force her thoughts on others and she knows that Cloud's grieving, so she gives him the space that she thinks he needs, until she realizes the situation is worse then she realized and then she does confront him. But if someone is grieving for lost loved ones, even if they're becoming distant and you're worried about them, would jumping at them immediately really make the situation better or could it make it much worse? I don't think either is an unrealistic reaction, but I do feel like the latter one is more like Tifa. She loves Cloud and understands how hurt he is, so she gives him his space to deal with it in his time rather then attacking him, even if she doesn't like the decisions he's making.

I didn't have an overall issue with that portrayal, but I won't argue your opinion.
 

penandpaper

Pro Adventurer
Is being disagreed with really that distressing?

@ the rest: The point. You're missing it. Nomura said point blank that Cloud was a positive, upbeat character at the end of FF7 and they made him depressed on purpose. SE was determined to make a profit, so they fell back on proven formulas. Cloud does not have lingering issues to resolve at the end of FF7 such that it needs a novella and an entire movie to resolve. You can find reasons to justify it all day long, but in the end we got something that was trying really damned hard to be the old product, but also look like a new product.

Not distressing per say, but I feel like I'm making people disike me. Perhaps it's just my perception since it's hard to read tone online, but I feel like I'm coming off poorly, so I think it's best that I just spectate a bit more. I am sorry if I'm offending anyone.

And I'm saying that I think the reaction was still realistically handled and that the issues dealt with were not the same as those dealt with in FF7 (Which was the original arguing point. That those issues were recycled. Emotional fallout from previous events is not the same as going through those previous events and that's not even taking into account the new stuff like having to deal with watching another person he loves die as well as facing death himself.). I thought it made sense, but I won't argue if you disagree.
 
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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
For Tifa, I could see why she wouldn't want to confront him. She isn't the sort to try to force her thoughts on others and she knows that Cloud's grieving, so she gives him the space that she thinks he needs, until she realizes the situation is worse then she realized and then she does confront him. But if someone is grieving for lost loved ones, even if they're becoming distant and you're worried about them, would jumping at them immediately really make the situation better or could it make it much worse? I don't think either is an unrealistic reaction, but I do feel like the latter one is more like Tifa. She loves Cloud and understands how hurt he is, so she gives him his space to deal with it in his time rather then attacking him, even if she doesn't like the decisions he's making.

No I agree, I mean we know Tifa has had problems with being direct in the past, in the OG she was freaked out by Clouds apparent personality change but was afraid of what would happen if she said anything.

Likewise I can see how she would want to give him space and she was probably afraid to confront him to harshly in case she drove him away. However I think that point was reached where she should have said something despite that fear, it was getting to a point where she had nothing to lose, I think she let it go on too long.

Of course as has been said, this was all plot contrivance and thats what bothered me the most.
 
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