Definitive and Absolute Power Tier List.

[Makoeyes987]

It seems obvious to me that Seph wasn't taking the fight all that seriously by virtue of the fact that he delivered a series of mortal wounds rather than an instant kill shot -- easily achieved with the blade through Cloud's head.

He was playing around, but still intended to kill Cloud.

That said, Cloud does legitimately outmaneuver him when he uses Omnislash Version 6.

That seems like a semantics quibble, man. The guy stabbed Cloud twice in the chest, through the knee, and hurled him down to the ground. And he would've stabbed Cloud in the face had Cloud not grabbed the blade and diverted it.

That's him going after vitals and trying to at the very least cripple him and wear him out for an execution. I'd say he's serious as a heart attack. Okay, he could've stabbed his face at first, but really..what's a larger, vital target? A man's face, or their heart/chest? Sephiroth just went for the larger opening.

And again, Sephiroth clearly tries to stab Cloud in the face/neck before Cloud grabs his sword and then gets flung down to the ground.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think you might be conflicting over a point you largely agree with. Mako says he's serious because he was going all out to defeat and then kill Cloud, SoS seems to be saying he wasn't 'serious' because he was playing with a defeated opponent before going in for the kill, that he was getting his jollies in first. I don't think these two things contradict with each other. It takes more effort to do what Sephiroth was doing than to go strictly for the kill, after all.

 

[Deus]

It's not just the fact he deliberately didn't strike a fatal blow. it's also him purposefully limiting himself to just fighting Cloud with swordsmanship when he has several other powers to choose from.

There is no denying Sephiroth was not giving it his all in that fight. So you could very easily say he was playing around.


EDIT:
God I just woke up. Sorry.,

 

[ForceStealer]

here is no denying Sephiroth was not giving it his all in that fight. So you could very easily say he was playing around.

There is still a difference there. Him choosing to use only his swordsmanship and "playing around" are different. Playing around is like putting your hand on a kids forehead so they can't reach you to hit you. Cloud also chose not to get any materia before heading out. AVALANCHE also chose not to intervene, both of those are "powers" available to Cloud that he also forgoes.

Why is it "playing around" and not an honorable battle between rivals? Sephiroth wanted a duel. That does not mean he's playing around. Sephiroth needs to prove he's a superior swordsman to this "normal" guy that's beaten him twice. Pulverizing him with telekinetic force wouldn't really prove that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

A fighting preference doesn't equate to a statement of whether or not one's giving it their all. If two fighters decide that they'll fight only with their fists while both of them are highly skilled at using their fists and kicks, does that mean the fighter who chose not to use their kicks but instead go all out with their fists was holding back?

Preference and choice doesn't go hand in hand with one's seriousness. Sephiroth was going all out with his swordsmanship instead of his magic. Same goes for Cloud, really.

You really can't say Sephiroth wasn't taking the fight seriously, when Sephiroth's spirit energy goes at its peak and he even dons his one wing to fully bring on the pain. He went Reunion on Cloud's ass when he got ready to kill.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If two fighters decide that they'll fight only with their fists while both of them are highly skilled at using their fists and kicks, does that mean the fighter who chose not to use their kicks but instead go all out with their fists was holding back?

EERRRRRRRRRRRRRR I know you mean well but as someone who's been boxing for quite some time this isn't the best analogy, man! The answer to this specific analogy would be 'Yes'.

But I see what you mean. I'm just being an anal dick.

 

[Makoeyes987]

EERRRRRRRRRRRRRR I know you mean well but as someone who's been boxing for quite some time this isn't the best analogy, man! The answer to this specific analogy would be 'Yes'.

But I see what you mean. I'm just being an anal dick.

Stop being an anal dick

If two guys want to have a duel to test their skills with a fist fight, but they both have guns, are they holding back by not using their gunman-ship skills, and sticking purely to their fists?

If you've got a better analogy, then by all means, please share it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, in a real (and fictional) fight, not using all of the options available to you when they're tactically viable would be 'holding back', yes. An MMA fighter or another similar fighter who went all out with his fists instead of mixing it up with his equally skilled kicking ability would be putting himself at a BIG handicap if he's fighting someone with the same skillset. That's like, really dumb to do.

A better way of expressing your point is comparing say, a wizard and a knight. The knight is competent at magic but great at swordsmanship, and the wizard is competent at swordsmanship but great at magic. If the wizard sticks to his magic instead of his swordsmanship, that's not holding himself back since its not likely that his 'okay' swordsmanship is tactically viable.

In essence, Sephiroth wouldn't be holding himself back by not using the Negative Lifestream if his swordsmanship is better at the job at beating Cloud. However if hypothetically, the NL would instantly kill Cloud, yes, in that hypotherical scenario, Sephiroth would be holding back.

 

[Deus]

I'd equate it to one fighter having a hand tied behind their back myself.
Cloud having materia wouldn't exactly have done anything, either. He's not packing magic stronger than Sephiroth's. Sephiroth's more exotic techniques however could have definitely overwhelmed and killed Cloud rather quickly.

In the end I guess it's just semantics. All I was originally saying was that Sephiroth didn't give it his all. If he was still serious, I don't care. That's not what I was trying to say. As long as we all agree he wasn't fighting at his true best then there really is no argument.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If two guys want to have a duel to test their skills with a fist fight, but they both have guns, are they holding back by not using their gunman-ship skills, and sticking purely to their fists?

That depends on the context of the fight, what measures they're competing on, and how bad they want to kill each other.

 

[Makoeyes987]

My analogy was with both fighters being equally skilled and capable at using their fists to full effect. And both being able to tactically win by using just their fists.

God, why do you have to make things so complicated?

But yes, your analogy does fit better. Thank you

I'd equate it to one fighter having a hand tied behind their back myself.
Cloud having materia wouldn't exactly have done anything, either. He's not packing magic stronger than Sephiroth's. Sephiroth's more exotic techniques however could have definitely overwhelmed and killed Cloud rather quickly.

In the end I guess it's just semantics. All I was originally saying was that Sephiroth didn't give it his all. If he was still serious, I don't care. That's not what I was trying to say. As long as we all agree he wasn't fighting at his true best then there really is no argument.

He was fighting at his best with his swordsmanship and strength. He didn't need to use magic. Why would he bother with magic when his sword is getting the job done just as well?

And him going all out and beating the crap out of his opponent with his sword, isn't him fighting with his hand behind his back. Again, Sephiroth getting serious and even popping out his wing doesn't indicate an opponent who's handicapping himself.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

My analogy was with both fighters being equally skilled and capable at using their fists to full effect. And both being able to tactically win by using just their fists.

God, why do you have to make things so complicated?

But yes, your analogy does fit better. Thank you

I AM A MARTIAL ARTS NERD

Yes, it all boils down to two things; 1. Using your resources in combat and 2. If those resources are tactically viable.

In fighting, "giving it everything you've got" is hyperbole to a certain degree. If you're in a kung fu martial arts and to hand death match, it doesn't make it wise to do your 'Cream Puff Tickle Technique' on your opponent just because you know it. Skipping over that skill in favor of trying to rip the guys heart out isn't holding back. Using all of your resources only really count if they amount to something. For example, if your 'Cream Puff Tickle Technique' kills the guy instantly in said kung fu death match and it's your most powerful, effective technique and you didn't use it, yes, that's holding back.

 

[Deus]

He was fighting at his best with his swordsmanship and strength. He didn't need to use magic. Why would he bother with magic when his sword is getting the job done just as well?

Well it obviously wasn't since he's dead and Cloud isn't.

You're also being needlessly nitpicky. Okay so he was fighting hsi best with his sword. He still didn't fight to the best of his full abilities.

And him going all out and beating the crap out of his opponent with his sword, isn't him fighting with his hand behind his back. Again, Sephiroth getting serious and even popping out his wing doesn't indicate an opponent who's handicapping himself.

That's like saying Freeza wasn't holding back because he used his various transformations later in the fight.
When we know had he gone to his best right away and used his best techniques, the heroes be very very dead. Well all of them this time.

n fighting, "giving it everything you've got" is hyperbole to a certain degree. If you're in a kung fu martial arts and to hand death match, it doesn't make it wise to do your 'Cream Puff Tickle Technique' on your opponent just because you know it. Skipping over that skill in favor of trying to rip the guys heart out isn't holding back. Using all of your resources only really count if they amount to something. For example, if your 'Cream Puff Tickle Technique' kills the guy instantly in said kung fu death match and it's your most powerful, effective technique and you didn't use it, yes, that's holding back.

But there's several powers Sephiroth could have used that be very effective. His telekinesis for one.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well it obviously wasn't since he's dead and Cloud isn't.

You're also being needlessly nitpicky. Okay so he was fighting hsi best with his sword. He still didn't fight to the best of his full abilities.

That's not a statement to him not doing his best, its a statement to Cloud's skill and superiority.

And again, why would he needlessly use magic when his sword is doing the same thing and achieving the same result? Why does he need to piece Cloud's chest with a Thundaga spell, when his sword is doing the same thing?

Again, maybe it would help if you actually saw the ACC fight, because the entire lethal onslaught Sephiroth rained upon Cloud doesn't even lend itself much of an opening for magic in the first place. It'd be superfluous. Like putting laser beams and knives on an invincible great white shark.

That's like saying Freeza wasn't holding back because he used his various transformations later in the fight.
When we know had he gone to his best right away and used his best techniques, the heroes be very very dead. Well all of them this time.

Those two fights aren't even the same. Again. Maybe you should see the fight. Because Sephiroth didn't nearly play around as much as Freeza did. At all.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Because Sephiroth didn't nearly play around as much as Freeza did. At all.

I'M ONLY USING 1% OF MY FULL POWER

 

[Deus]

That's not a statement to him not doing his best, its a statement to Cloud's skill and superiority.

You asked why use magic if his sword can do the job. I answered by pointing out that it couldn't.


And if Sephiroth did his best Cloud's superior swordsmanship wouldn't have mattered.

And again, why would he needlessly use magic when his sword is doing the same thing and achieving the same result? Why does he need to piece Cloud's chest with a Thundaga spell, when his sword is doing the same thing?

Because it be the intelligent thing to do.

Again, maybe it would help if you actually saw the ACC fight, because the entire lethal onslaught Sephiroth rained upon Cloud doesn't even lend itself much of an opening for magic in the first place. It'd be superfluous. Like putting laser beams and knives on an invincible great white shark.

Sharks with frickin' laser beams on their head?

Seriously though, it's more like putting laser beams on a shark that isn't invincible and is needlessly biting it out with another shark that doesn't have laser beams.

Those two fights aren't even the same. Again. Maybe you should see the fight. Because Sephiroth didn't nearly play around as much as Freeza did. At all.

Answer me this.
Did Sephiroth use all his powers in that fight?
If the answer is no then we agree and I can forget this movie exists.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Because it be the intelligent thing to do.

Based on...?

Did Sephiroth use all his powers in that fight?

I didn't use Slots when I was fighting the final battle in FF6. However I did have Genji Glove and the Offering equipped so I hit like 16 times for 5000 damage each or w/e. I WASN'T USING ALL OF MY POWERS GUESS I WAS HOLDING BACK

 

[Makoeyes987]

You asked why use magic if his sword can do the job. I answered by pointing out that it couldn't.

If brutally stabbing someone in the chest, arms, legs, foot, knee and then going for the face isn't doing the job, then it just wasn't going to happen. Sephiroth had no damn clue that his opponent was the expy of Kenpachi Zaraki and could survive numerous fatal injuries. Stop applying hindsight.

And if Sephiroth did his best Cloud's superior swordsmanship wouldn't have mattered.

You're wrong.

Because it be the intelligent thing to do.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Why would he even bother doing that when he's got Cloud impaled through the chest on the tip of his sword and then proceeds to cut him up more before slamming him on the ground?

Sharks with frickin' laser beams on their head?

Seriously though, it's more like putting laser beams on a shark that isn't invincible and is needlessly biting it out with another shark that doesn't have laser beams.

Yes! With frickin' laser beams!

No. The shark wasn't needlessly biting. He was biting quite successfully and winning until the opponent got a deadly super mode and turned it around.

Answer me this.
Did Sephiroth use all his powers in that fight?
If the answer is no then we agree and I can forget this movie exists.

He used all his physical power and even got his own limit break. So yeah.

@Ted Lang As Your Bartender

ROTFL, pretty fuckin' much. Epic comparison there.

 

[ForceStealer]

I'd like to point out that Sephiroth's telekinesis isn't unstoppable. In the final battle with Sephiroth in FF7 he tries to tear the team apart with his telekinesis and they overcome it with willpower.

And to build on what Ted was saying, say you're playing an FF. You have the full line of the electricity spells. You run into a...

that.

Now you cast Thunder because you KNOW that will kill the enemy. You HAVE Thundaga, were you playing around? Or were you simply applying the necessary force to an obstacle.

 

[Deus]

If brutally stabbing someone in the chest, arms, legs, foot, knee and then going for the face isn't doing the job, then it just wasn't going to happen.

Sure it was. If he held Cloud with TK then lopped off his head that be the end right there.

Sephiroth had no damn clue that his opponent was the expy of Kenpachi Zaraki and could survive numerous fatal injuries. Stop applying hindsight.

Maybe you should actually go for a killing blow then instead of inflicting mortal wounds for needless sadistic pleasure first.

And you just compared the utter failure of Cloud to the absolute awesome of Kenpach.
I found the fight on YouTube. Kenny didn't so much as peep when he was being sliced apart by Ichigo and Tousen. Cloud wishes he was half that awesome.

You're wrong.

TK > Cloud.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Why would he even bother doing that when he's got Cloud impaled through the chest on the tip of his sword and then proceeds to cut him up more before slamming him on the ground?

You're really just proving my point here. Sephiroth delayed going for the killing blow over and over.

Based on...?

His only one-on-one confrontation with Cloud previously where he was physically defeated.

I didn't use Slots when I was fighting the final battle in FF6. However I did have Genji Glove and the Offering equipped so I hit like 16 times for 5000 damage each or w/e. I WASN'T USING ALL OF MY POWERS GUESS I WAS HOLDING BACK

If we're gonna compare FF bosses than it's more like how Trance Kuja doesn't just own the party with Ultima right away. He was holding back as well.

I'd like to point out that Sephiroth's telekinesis isn't unstoppable. In the final battle with Sephiroth in FF7 he tries to tear the team apart with his telekinesis and they overcome it with willpower.

That was Cloud + like 5 people, a robot and a dog thing. And it was a weaker Sephiroth.
But really why am I even defending Sephiroth. I feel dirty. I'm done. He was fighting at his best and lost to Emo Strife. Everyone's happy.

 

[Makoeyes987]

[/I][/U]Sure it was. If he held Cloud with TK then lopped off his head that be the end right there.

...Do you know anatomy? Impaling someone through the chest twice would kill someone. If it didn't, the blood loss alone would. Furthermore, Sephiroth tried stabbing Cloud in the face and Cloud grabbed the sword at the last minute, only to be hurled to the ground from several stories.

Maybe you should actually go for a killing blow then instead of inflicting mortal wounds for needless sadistic pleasure first.

Stabbing someone through the chest is a killing blow. Going for the face is a killing blow. Hurling them down to the ground after doing all that is a killing blow. He inflicted numerous attacks that would KILL had Cloud not literally willed himself to live.

And you just compared the utter failure of Cloud to the absolute awesome of Kenpach.
I found the fight on YouTube. Kenny didn't so much as peep when he was being sliced apart by Ichigo and Tousen. Cloud wishes he was half that awesome.

Yeah, except they pretty much do the same thing. Survive ridiculously mortal wounds that should kill them, but instead keep fighting and getting stronger. It's the same thing.

You're really just proving my point here. Sephiroth delayed going for the killing blow over and over.

...What? Sephiroth started with a damn katana through the chest. How the hell did he delay going for a killing blow? What are you talking about?

 

[Deus]

...Do you know anatomy? Impaling someone through the chest twice would kill someone.

Bullets to the face also tend to do more than inconvenience people.
But this is Final Fantasy so our logic isn't exactly fully applied there.

...What? Sephiroth started with a damn katana through the chest. How the hell did he delay going for a killing blow? What are you talking about?

What would normally kill a real life human obviously doesn't apply to FFVII humans. At least not the ones on the level of Cloud and company.
I would think Sephiroth would be aware of this.

But it's all quite moot. I concede Sephiroth was fighting to his best and lost. We're all happy.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Bullets to the face also tend to do more than inconvenience people.
But this is Final Fantasy so our logic isn't exactly fully applied there.

Except we have no reason to doubt that these are humans that have full human anatomy and weaknesses. So no. Repeated fatal wounds will be fatal. If you get stabbed, impaled, and shot in the right place, you more than likely will die.

What would normally kill a normal human obviously doesn't apply to FFVII humans. At least not the ones on the level of Cloud and company.
I would think Sephiroth would be aware of this.

Zack says hi. No matter how strong you are, eventually you will hit a wall and biology will rear its ugly head.

But it's all quite moot. I concede Sephiroth was fighting to his best and lost. We're all happy.

Fair enough.

 

[ForceStealer]

And a sword through Aeris' torso did the trick handily

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Bullets to the face also tend to do more than inconvenience people.
But this is Final Fantasy so our logic isn't exactly fully applied there.

What would normally kill a real life human obviously doesn't apply to FFVII humans. At least not the ones on the level of Cloud and company.

Oh come on! I knew you were going to say something like this. There's nothing in FF7, FF, or hell, a lot of fiction in general (except comic books, and even then that's usually only characters who can instantaneously heal themselves) that allows super powered people to just shrug off getting pierced through the chest and lifting someone in the air.