Definitive and Absolute Power Tier List.

[Ryushikaze]

Sephiroth is not 'holding back' if nuking the city is antithesis to his objective.

His objective WAS to kill Cloud. But it was also to make Cloud KNOW he had been beaten. It was to get the last laugh, to be able to toy with his prey before the killing blow.
It was about soothing his wounded pride as much as a tactical objective. He's been beaten in pure swordplay twice before by Cloud. It's time to get even.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Look back a few pages. We agreed the amount of Negative Lifestream Sephiroth commands has to be at least about the same level as the bit that destroyed Meteor.
So all he'd have to do is wave his hand and have ti smack Cloud and he'd be destroyed pretty much instantly.

Yeah, he could do that. Would that necessarily kill Cloud instantly? Not necessarily. Cloud's survived being consumed by the Lifestream and swallowed by it before. He's even chopped through a large tendril of it in DC. So I wouldn't say it'd be an assured one hit kill.

You also were the one who said Sephiroth was above cityblock busting. And Cloud couldn't take that either.

If Cloud and co can survive Supernova, and the like, I'm sure he could.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

This is getting silly. Sephiroth has never used his full capabilities on Cloud. The fact is that even if he used everything he had as Safer, his AC form is more powerful and therefore all his abilities would be more powerful. Cloud has never, ever been hit with anything on the level of what AC Seph can dish out if he felt like it.

As for why you would use a nuke to take out a houseful of men with guns? Because you can and you have no concern for collateral damage. Excessive force has been a battle tactic for thousands of years.

Besides which, Cloud didn't hold back. He used the most powerful attack from FF VII, Omnislash, and Sephiroth basically bitch slapped it away.

 

[ForceStealer]

It was about soothing his wounded pride as much as a tactical objective. He's been beaten in pure swordplay twice before by Cloud. It's time to get even.

And, just to emphasize this - he did win. Sephiroth summarily trounced Cloud in sword play. Granted, Cloud had been fighting for almost 2 days straight by the point. But Sephiroth did defeat him.

As such, why would he have used anything else?

Your argument is essentially that if Sephiroth didn't rain down all hell from every single damn spell he knows about he was holding back. Holding back implies, to me, that you're doing less than is necessary. He did exactly what was necessary.
The fact that Cloud won is irrelevent, you can't use hindsight for your argument here. Sephiroth used appropriate force for an appropriate task.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is getting silly. Sephiroth has never used his full capabilities on Cloud. The fact is that even if he used everything he had as Safer, his AC form is more powerful and therefore all his abilities would be more powerful. Cloud has never, ever been hit with anything on the level of what AC Seph can dish out if he felt like it.

As for why you would use a nuke to take out a houseful of men with guns? Because you can and you have no concern for collateral damage. Excessive force has been a battle tactic for thousands of years.

Besides which, Cloud didn't hold back. He used the most powerful attack from FF VII, Omnislash, and Sephiroth basically bitch slapped it away.

I thought your premise was that if you didn't use all of your capabilities and powers, you were holding back? Cloud didn't use his full moveset either, so that would be holding back.

Sephiroth's raw physical power was at its max, and he even went into his Reunion form limit break to show it. So again, how is that not him using his full power?

And Cloud has never endured anything of Sephiroth's at his strongest form? That's not true. Sephiroth's form in Dissidia is the same and Cloud fought and won against him there twice as well. He endured that shit as well.

 

[ForceStealer]

Besides which, Cloud didn't hold back. He used the most powerful attack from FF VII, Omnislash, and Sephiroth basically bitch slapped it away.

Because Sephiroth had seen it before, making it a poor choice on Cloud's part. Now, given that Cloud overpowered Sephiroth's telekinesis in the past, why would Sephiroth try it again?

 

[Deus]

His objective WAS to kill Cloud. But it was also to make Cloud KNOW he had been beaten. It was to get the last laugh, to be able to toy with his prey before the killing blow.

Isn't this basically saying what I was saying earlier? That he was toying with Cloud? He wanted Cloud to know who was better...so he wanted to torture him. And he did. Instead of outright killing him he chose to be needlessly brutal to make himself feel better.

It was about soothing his wounded pride as much as a tactical objective. He's been beaten in pure swordplay twice before by Cloud. It's time to get even.

Some villains would take that as a sign they need a new strategy.

If Cloud and co can survive Supernova, and the like, I'm sure he could.

Supernova is:
1. Completely unquantifiable.
B. Irrelevant since you have no proof Sephiroth used that move. You can easily defeat him before he does use it.

Oh goody, back to gameplay mechanics.

Yeah, he could do that. Would that necessarily kill Cloud instantly? Not necessarily. Cloud's survived being consumed by the Lifestream and swallowed by it before. He's even chopped through a large tendril of it in DC. So I wouldn't say it'd be an assured one hit kill.

Yeah but falling into teh Lifestream and being smacked in the face with it when it can destroy gaint space rocks are very different.

. Now, given that Cloud overpowered Sephiroth's telekinesis in the past, why would Sephiroth try it again?

Because Cloud didn't do it. Cloud and the entirE party did it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Supernova is:
1. Completely unquantifiable.
B. Irrelevant since you have no proof Sephiroth used that move. You can easily defeat him before he does use it.

Oh goody, back to gameplay mechanics.

Wrong. The CC Complete Guide and 10th Anniversary Ultimania reference Sephiroth using it in FFVII and it appearing there.

It is also described as

A blast of such despair that it can send destruction even into other dimensions.

So

Yeah but falling into teh Lifestream and being smacked in the face with it when it can destroy gaint space rocks are very different.

Not really. Being exposed to such powerful concentrated raw magical power would kill a normal person. Even Sephiroth's body was destroyed when he got caught in the current and drifted to the Northern Crater. Cloud went through it twice and wasn't physically damaged. Not only that, he can chop through it too.

 

[ForceStealer]

What? Sephiroth was holding the party individually and each of them individually overcame it. They moved into formation individually, why do you say the party did that.

And why do you only count gameplay mechanics when it suits your argument and ignore it the rest of the time? You know for a fact that Cloud needed 2 people to help him kill Safer Sephiroth. How do you know all 8 weren't fighting? How do you know it wasn't a Single Charatcer Challenge and Cloud killed him by himself.

If you wanna rule out game mechanics, fine, but rule out all of them.

 

[Deus]

Wrong. The CC Complete Guide and 10th Anniversary Ultimania reference Sephiroth using it in FFVII and it appearing there.

Can I see the exact quote please?

A blast of such despair that it can send destruction even into other dimensions.

You do realize that's completely unquantifiable, right? Dimensions in fiction come in all shapes and sizes. Hell Buffy villains are capable of using attacks that go into other dimensions.

Not really. Being exposed to such powerful concentrated raw magical power would kill a normal person. Even Sephiroth's body was destroyed when he got caught in the current and drifted to the Northern Crater. Cloud went through it twice and wasn't physically damaged. Not only that, he can chop through it too.

Tifa also fell in it and came out unscathed.

Seriously do you think Cloud is more durable than Meteor?

What? Sephiroth was holding the party individually and each of them individually overcame it. They moved into formation individually, why do you say the party did that.

They all move into their spots because it's dramatic. There's nothing at all to suggest they just then broke out of the TK. In fact it seemed pretty clear to me that after Cloud's little speech about Holy shining they all were free.

And why do you only count gameplay mechanics when it suits your argument and ignore it the rest of the time? You know for a fact that Cloud needed 2 people to help him kill Safer Sephiroth. How do you know all 8 weren't fighting? How do you know it wasn't a Single Charatcer Challenge and Cloud killed him by himself.

Except I already conceded that argument was wrong.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Can I see the exact quote please?

You do realize that's completely unquantifiable, right? Dimensions in fiction come in all shapes and sizes. Hell Buffy villains are capable of using attacks that go into other dimensions.

You can find it here and the profile here.

You should really take a look at our front page

And use common sense. If it's enough to even shatter dimensions and also equated to the power of a supernova, then obviously its stating its extremely powerful and deadly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the attack is Sephiroth's strongest and most destructive.

Seriously do you think Cloud is more durable than Meteor?

No, but the Lifestream, as well as Holy was what destroyed Meteor. Not just the Lifestream.

They all move into their spots because it's dramatic. There's nothing at all to suggest they just then broke out of the TK. In fact it seemed pretty clear to me that after Cloud's little speech about Holy shining they all were free.

Except I already conceded that argument was wrong.

Are you serious...? They struggle and break free of it on their own. Do you not remember the scene? They broke free of it with their own will. Period. Why else would they be released?

 

[Deus]

You can find it here and the profile here.

You should really take a look at our front page

I've glanced at the Ultimania stuff before. Just didn't know exactly where to look..

And it's just describing what the move does... We can easily see everything ti says in the animation.

It doesn't confirm Sephiroth used the move on Cloud and co. - just that he had it.

And use common sense. If it's enough to even shatter dimensions and also equated to the power of a supernova, then obviously its stating its extremely powerful and deadly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the attack is Sephiroth's strongest and most destructive.

I'm using common sense. I'm not gonna say Cloud can withstand citybusting attacks just because Sephiroth had an unquantified attack that nothing says he used.

Are you serious...? They struggle and break free of it on their own. Do you not remember the scene? They broke free of it with their own will. Period. Why else would they be released?

Because they broke free of it together... Pardon if I don't accept the idea that they can feel like they're beign ripped apart one second and basically shitting themselves at Seph's power but the next second they all have the ability to casually break free on their own.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

Mako, listen to yourself. If Sephiroth used Supernova canonically in FF VII, the majority of the party would have been instantly killed. Unless a punch from Loz is only slightly weaker than a dimension shattering attack it's a plot incosistancy, as a single blow from Loz put Tifa down for the count for quite a while.

And as for Sephiroth using a "Reunion Limit Break"? Don't be absurd. Reunion mode is a gameplay mechanic and is only in the Dissidia universe. It doesn't even do anything other than let Sephiroth glide even there. In the FF VII universe, having your wing out is purely an aesthetic thing. Genesis with his wing out in Crisis Core isn't more powerful than Genesis when he's hiding the wing, and he and Angeal certainly aren't stuck in a limit break for years on end. By your logic Cecil in FF IV and The After Years should be able to change between Dark Knight and Paladin forms on the fly, which he clearly can't.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I've glanced at the Ultimania stuff before. Just didn't know exactly where to look..

And it's just describing what the move does... We can easily see everything ti says in the animation.

It doesn't confirm Sephiroth used the move on Cloud and co. - just that he had it.

The CC Complete Guide specifically states its the strongest technique in FFVII that Safer Sephiroth uses, and makes no mention of it never appearing. Why would they include it if it were never used or had no relevance to Sephiroth's final fight in FFVII? Again, common sense please.

I'm using common sense. I'm not gonna say Cloud can withstand citybusting attacks just because Sephiroth had an unquantified attack that nothing says he used.

It's inclusion in the list of plot elements that appear in FFVII's Compilation is pretty self explanatory. Why would it be there if it never appeared in FFVII's plot?

Because they broke free of it together... Pardon if I don't accept the idea that they can feel like they're beign ripped apart one second and basically shitting themselves at Seph's power but the next second they all have the ability to casually break free on their own.

What are you talking about? If they all one by one broke free of it, then they broke free of it. They were all able to overpower it and fight. Cloud and the others fought it and regained control. Do you think they have a collective consciousness that somehow tapped into? They are not psychics.

Mako, listen to yourself. If Sephiroth used Supernova canonically in FF VII, the majority of the party would have been instantly killed. Unless a punch from Loz is only slightly weaker than a dimension shattering attack it's a plot incosistancy, as a single blow from Loz put Tifa down for the count for quite a while.

How the hell would the characters survive any of the extremely powerful magic attacks and shit they've survived in FFVII without being instantly killed?

And a physical attack from the remnant of Sephiroth's strength isn't the same as a magic attack. Especially when they have materia, armor, and the like to protect themselves from the magic, and Tifa took the punch bare.

And as for Sephiroth using a "Reunion Limit Break"? Don't be absurd. Reunion mode is a gameplay mechanic and is only in the Dissidia universe. It doesn't even do anything other than let Sephiroth glide even there. In the FF VII universe, having your wing out is purely an aesthetic thing. Genesis with his wing out in Crisis Core isn't more powerful than Genesis when he's hiding the wing, and he and Angeal certainly aren't stuck in a limit break for years on end. By your logic Cecil in FF IV and The After Years should be able to change between Dark Knight and Paladin forms on the fly, which he clearly can't.

Sephiroth's transformed states has always been indicative of him reaching higher levels of power. Sephiroth limit breaks as well. His limit break transformation has always been compared to him revealing his jet-black wing. And it doesn't matter if its in the Dissidia universe or not. It's still Sephiroth from FFVII. You really think the wing is just for show?

As for CC I don't see how Genesis and Angeal embracing the powers that make them "monsters" and thus revealing their wings, is not indicative of them tapping into even more powers that allow them flight and more. Don't see how that contradicts anything.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

Mako, please stop. Armor is a gameplay mechanic in RPG's, it's not ever mentioned in the plot. Ever notice that any time any character in the series is shown they are in nothing but their clothes? Even when we're shown the final battle of VII in the beginning of ACC, Tifa is in nothing but a shirt and shorts. Moving on to the limit break nonsense: The only sign ever meant to show limit breaking in the FF VII universe is a glow of spirit energy surrounding the person. See FF VII, Advent Children Complete, and Crisis Core for proof of this. I know you can't honestly believe that Angeal and Genesis were "limit breaking" incessantly for years, that's just silly.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Limit break, transform, super mode, same difference.

Genesis and Angeal revealing their wings is not just for aesthetics. When fighting Genesis in Modeoheim its definitely apparent.

 

[Dashell]

Cloud thought it meant something too. I mean did you see the look on his face when Sephiroth revealed his wing in ACC? Cloud knows he's up to something.

Sorry just wanted to say that, I'll leave you guys to your debate now

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

No, what's apparent is that wingless Genesis in Banora sans the wing is more powerful than wing out Genesis at Modeoheim.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually no, it's not. As Genesis degrades and becomes more like the Jenova monster, his power increases. He gets stronger, despite his appearance of "rotting."

 

[Ryushikaze]

The wings are not popping out 'Just because,' their appearance definitely indicates greater powers than before, not the least of which is Angeal's newfound power to fly- which actually cannot come FROM the wing for very obvious reasons.

It's not a limit break, but it is essentially a 'power booster', in that releasing it allows access to abilities they don't have without it.
It's also interesting to note that the variance of wings of Genesis copies indicate how powerful they are compared to each other.

As for 'it's never been used', if it's never been used, how can the Sephiroth fan Club know of its existence? And if it has no plot relevance, why the hell bring it up in the CCU, when it's not even used in the game- I've certainly never seen it and he heartless angels my ass all the time and THAT didn't get CCU or in story mention.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

After Genesis regains his SOLDIER pride post Genesis Avatar he loses the wing, but this fight is still a much more difficult fight than the one one against wing out, degrading Genesis at Modeoheim. Even in spite of the fact that Zack is more powerful and skilled the more time goes on, the fight against normal Genesis is still more difficult.

 

[Dark and Divine]

In Sephiroth's case, though, sprouting the wing doesn't seem to give him any special boost, except for an aparent increase in flight's speed.

The stabbings, the slashes and such don't seem to be different of what Sephiroth had done previously in the fight.

 

[Deus]

The CC Complete Guide specifically states its the strongest technique in FFVII that Safer Sephiroth uses, and makes no mention of it never appearing. Why would they include it if it were never used or had no relevance to Sephiroth's final fight in FFVII? Again, common sense please.

Okay. So he has it. Now quantify how strong it is and prove that it's stronger than a citybusting attack.

What are you talking about? If they all one by one broke free of it, then they broke free of it. They were all able to overpower it and fight. Cloud and the others fought it and regained control. Do you think they have a collective consciousness that somehow tapped into? They are not psychics.

No, they don't need to. Sephiroth was holding eight of them at once which obviously divided up his attention. \And this was in his base form.

He was trying to hold them all at once and then they all starte dto pull themselves free. THey worked together because they were all being held at the same time.

]And as for Sephiroth using a "Reunion Limit Break"? Don't be absurd. Reunion mode is a gameplay mechanic and is only in the Dissidia universe. It doesn't even do anything other than let Sephiroth glide even there.

Lol Sephiroth has his own Devil Trigger?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually with the way Genesis is hunched over and appears to be out of breath and exhausted, he doesn't seem to be stronger than his form in Modeoheim at all. At the very least he seems worn out after getting beaten as Genesis Avatar.

The degredation hurts, and messes with his body, but he isn't becoming weaker. He's becoming a monster. When the degredation was sped up on one of the G-copies after eating Zack's hair, it didn't get weaker. It got stronger and much more monstrous.

In Sephiroth's case, though, sprouting the wing doesn't seem to give him any special boost, except for an aparent increase in flight's speed.

I find that highly debatable considering again, Sephiroth's power up in FFVII when he gained his wing(s) and Dissidia as well. And given the fact he's faster and more serious, it's not that far a leap in logic to say he's tapping into his power now that he's also serious. Again, the wing is not just for show and never has been.

The stabbings, the slashes and such don't seem to be different of what Sephiroth had done previously in the fight.

Why would they? The only difference would be in their strength and actual targeting.

Okay. So he has it. Now quantify how strong it is and prove that it's stronger than a citybusting attack.

If the fact its described as being able to tear into dimensions and is equated to the power of a supernova, isn't enough quantifaction, I don't know what is. What are you looking for? Schematics?

No, they don't need to. Sephiroth was holding eight of them at once which obviously divided up his attention. \And this was in his base form.

He was trying to hold them all at once and then they all starte dto pull themselves free. THey worked together because they were all being held at the same time.

Care to share your reference or proof of this?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think it worth pointing out that as Genesis 'degrades' he becomes stronger, so he can easily be stronger sans wing than he was with wing earlier in his degredation.

It might also represent a boon/bane tradeoff, one that Final Genesis could no longer risk after the defeat of Avatar. It might exert him to have the wing, and as pointed out, he's not doing so hot physically in the last fight, even as he starts pulling out the stops.