Did you like Cait Sith?

[Tifabelle]

I voted no. He's annoying, and his speech (even before he had a voice) was irritating. Don't confuse Cait Sith with Reeve. Reeve is cool, but he made a cracky stuffed robot. Cait Sith itself hardly has any value as a character. This is outside of his lack of usefulness in battle.

In AC, they made him a piece of crap. You just want to punch him in the face. DoC he wasn't quite as bad.

 

[DLPB]

You see Tifabelle, the issue is that Cait works better in a game because you view it as a game. The minute you start to think about story you quickly realise that he doesn't work in the slightest.

The devlopers of AC made the biggest error you can make when placing a game into a movie, they tried to make the gameplay work in a film (which is also why the Bahamut fight looks laughable). If you see Cait in full motion, in a supposed battle, you just laugh at it. It breaks fiction.

Cait breaks the fiction because he is just way too much to believe. There are limits to fiction and Cait is past the point of no return and already crashed landed in the ravine.

The original developers who wrote Cait did not use their brains, they did not realise that it was too absurd for a main character, and the AC team made the critical error of placing him into a film, where the absurdity becomes too clear. They wanted a cheap laugh and had no idea how to get him into the story. So they just made it happen... no reasoning. I would wager that Cait was added at a much later time, like Yuffie and Vincent.

Now, a story of a real character joining you, a human... working for Shin-Ra, is good. It works. You an FEEL something towards that person and if they had spent more time developing the story, the spy thing wouldn't have been so badly exposed.

If you liked Cait, more power to you. If Semi good fiction is something you can still like, more power to you. But if you demand a high standard and aren't able to accept things like Cait, you are like me. I am not having a go at anyone who likes the character, but my view should also be tolerated, it is just as valid.

 

[Tifabelle]

Well, once they made him a main character, it would be hard to leave him out of the story. (Although they managed with Nanaki.) It didn't bother me that he was in AC or DoC. What I meant about AC though was not his battle mechanics (which obv are retarded), but more his personality. The tone of his voice, and the fact that he shouts things (pretty incoherently) makes him hard to enjoy.

The fact that he rides around on Red's back is an insult to Red, and sort of seems silly that Cait can't keep up with the others. He should have, in no way, had more lines than Nanaki. Injustice.

The other thing that strikes me about Cait is this - is he more robot or more stuffed animal. Because for a Final Fantasy world, VII is pretty technologically advanced. You'd think a robot could do cooler stuff.

 

[DLPB]

As far as I was aware, FF7 made it clear he was being used by Reeve... even if you can accept that, what on earth is reeve still doing with that thing? Even that doesn't work. Why would Reeve use that for infiltration anyway? Why would he use it full stop? It is just too much for me to accept....

They didn't need to include Cait... they did it for comic value.

[and yeah I know they try to explain this elsewhere and even make it so Reeve falls to pieces which is laughable.]

 

[ForceStealer]

[FF7] does adhere for the most part on strict interpretations of real life physics.

Hilarious. I can't believe you can say that with a straight face. Do you want me to make a list of things that happen in that game that are physically impossible?

I don't actually accept that Cloud did squats for a wig or that he went round wall market collecting clothes in mini quests. I see it as Dressed as female > got into Corneos > confronted corneo. The rest is game play. It isn't a deal breaker.

Wait, what? So none of that happened? Cloud just bought a dress, got in, got Tifa out? So, you've already said nothing that happens in the battle window actually happened, and now nothing that you have control over AT ALL actually happened? So the story of FF7 is an actuality only a very rough outline of the 40 hours you witness playing the game? I would love to know what you think happened in the whole Lifestream sequence with Cloud and Tifa. Did he just up and remember after falling in?

I accept that games are very different to films

Funny, considering you only count the things that happen as a movie as canon.

That's also why AC failed so much with a general audience, because it tries to be a film with gameplay elements.

What does this even mean? What's a "general audience?" The only people I ever saw it "fail" with are so-called diehards. All the "general" people I know that saw it thought it was awesome.

The devlopers of AC made the biggest error you can make when placing a game into a movie, they tried to make the gameplay work in a film (which is also why the Bahamut fight looks laughable).

No they $&@#in didn't. If they had the characters would line up and wait their turns. Do the impossible feats "break fiction" (which doesn't actually mean anything, btw, but I know what you're trying to say) in kung fu movies? What about the Matrix, you have to hate that movie, right?

You cannot make a game play like a film, you cannot make a film view like a game.

Wasn't that the entire freaking premise of the Scott Pilgrim movie and the Heavy Rain video game? Both of which, to my knowledge, did pretty well. (And so did Advent Children for that matter.)

If you liked Cait, more power to you. If Semi good fiction is something you can still like, more power to you. But if you demand a high standard and aren't able to accept things like Cait, you are like me. I am not having a go at anyone who likes the character, but my view should also be tolerated, it is just as valid.

Well, firstly, I wanna congratulate you on edging slightly closer to admitting something is an opinion. Though the first part shows you're not quite there yet.

But to draw the line at Cait Sith and all the other arbitrary places you decide to draw lines would require you not accept A LOT of other stuff out of FF7 and you, by all calculations, shouldn't like it at all. The writers were not not using their brains, or if they weren't, they never do. Umaro, Gogo, Quina. There are characters like this all the time. And Quina had a bigger freaking arc than Cait Sith did. Cait Sith didn't have an arc, he was a spy. And that secret lasts like a quarter of disc 1.
And even if you think Quina was unimportant, his ridiculous race of people still did given that one RAISED VIVI.

sort of seems silly that Cait can't keep up with the others

Why? The cat never did anything, it was the moogle that fought and 'kept up' with everyone.

That said, I agree that there was no reason for him to be Advent Children, why would Reeve even send him? (Though the espionage purpose in DC makes perfect sense, DLPB.) But its pretty obvious why he was there - for completion. It was an FF7 movie, so they thought it should have all the characters, blah de blah. But I agree there.

As for Tifa, it was a Japanese deliberate appeasement to male fanboys. I can accept her dress and turn a blind eye to it, but it is still blatant exploitation which would not change anything had she wore something longer.

...So why does it change anything that she's wearing something shorter? Go to the nearest slums and I want you to report back to me with what you see bargirls wearing, okay?
It absolutely brought more money into the bar - and thus, AVALANCHE - and Tifa is kickass enough that she could wear something like that and not be in danger.

 

[Tifabelle]

As far as I was aware, FF7 made it clear he was being used by Reeve... even if you can accept that, what on earth is reeve still doing with that thing? Even that doesn't work. Why would Reeve use that for infiltration anyway? Why would he use it full stop? It is just too much for me to accept....

Wait. Why wouldn't he use it? Shinra (notably the Turks) were trying to chase down Sephiroth while at the same time trying to keep the party from finding him. So Reeve used Cait Sith to infiltrate the party, which I don't think was a bad idea.

They didn't need to include Cait... they did it for comic value.

Well...they did. Because he's a part of the main party.

Hilarious. I can't believe you can say that with a straight face. Do you want me to make a list of things that happen in that game that are physically impossible?

Not only this game, but every FF game has certain elements that should be "impossible". Hell, we're talking about FFX in the other thread. As a matter of fact, DLPB you are arguing the opposite ideal about suspending belief in the other thread. Why can't you suspend certain beliefs here?

As for the Bahamut battle scene, it doesn't bother me. I think it was done pretty well in real time while still executing elements of the original game. Though to this day, no matter how hard I try, I still can't see Cait Sith using his dice. >.<

Why? The cat never did anything, it was the moogle that fought and 'kept up' with everyone.

Oh wait. Let me rephrase that. It's not silly that he can't keep up. It's silly because he can't keep up. Does that make sense? He's like a parody of himself.

Now as for Cait's role after FF7, if Reeve wants to use him to help in battle, why not send him with the Mog if Cait needs it? Or if he wants to use him for espionage, then don't send him into battle if he isn't built for that.

 

[DLPB]

Hilarious. I can't believe you can say that with a straight face. Do you want me to make a list of things that happen in that game that are physically impossible?

Are you just trying to irritate or something? Or is there really a genuine reason you cannot understand the meld between real physics and FICTION. There is an intertwining of the 2 in FF7. That's why Aerith died when she was stabbed. Many things require a SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF. Do you comprehend in the slightest what this means?

Wait, what? So none of that happened?

Literally, no. If you made FF7 into a novel are you really telling me you would add in the part about doing a squat contest for a wig. Use common sense. It is easy. It is all interpretation. Game elements are not always story elements. That;s obviously how a game story should be viewed or once again we get into the argument of hell House being real or Rufus firing shot gun rounds into Cloud. YOU PICK AND CHOOSE ALL THE TIME WHAT YOU WILL ACCEPT. IT IS CALLED EXERCISING GOOD JUDGEMENT.

and now nothing

I didn't say that.

So the story of FF7 is an actuality only a very rough outline of the 40 hours you witness playing the game?

Story wise, it should be viewed in context of a game when you play the game and as a story when you consider the story. You cannot ALWAYS have gameplay elements inside the story. It does not work. Rufus. Shot gun.

Funny, considering you only count the things that happen as a movie as canon.

I certainly don't consider AC a faithful sequel. It goes against its own established gravity for one thing and is a total failure as a fiction. That's why it is panned by mainstream viewers. Again, exercise judgement. It is easy, and Nomura should try it too.

What's a "general audience?"

An audience that hasn't played the game and who tuned in to see a film. The sentence I made, made perfect sense.

All the "general" people I know that saw it thought it was awesome.

Given your complete lack of understanding of fiction, I am willimg to bet the circle of friends you are with, would. venture onto some review sites for Movies and see how it fares. I am afraid it isn't peachy, especially from the non gaming viewers. A film is supposed to work with audiences. AC works only with fanboys. It has next to 0 character de;envelopment and story and is nearly entirely fight scenes which work in a game but NOT in a movie.

Well, firstly, I wanna congratulate you on edging slightly closer to admitting something is an opinion

Don't delude yourself. What I am saying here is basic understanding of fiction which you and many here can't grasp. What is an option is if a fiction WORKED for YOU. Cait is a fiction breaker for anyone who wants a higher standard of storytelling LIKE ME.

But to draw the line at Cait Sith and all the other arbitrary places you decide to draw lines

Cait is by far the worst and IS A MAIN CHARACTER IN THE MAIN NON GAME STORY ARC. It is a completely different argument.

Umaro, Gogo, Quina. There are characters like this all the time

FF9 is not FF7. Totally different fiction and totally different rules. The other 2 do not have major parts to play in the story compared to Cait Sith. It is again, completely different logic.

Why? The cat never did anything, it was the moogle that fought and 'kept up' with everyone.

And you think that is good fiction?

(Though the espionage purpose in DC makes perfect sense

I am afraid a human being with real power in Shin-Ra would not rely on a robot cat and stuffed toy. That's absurd.

report back to me with what you see bargirls wearing, okay?

Except she isn't in a bar for 99% of the game. Another ludicrous comparison.

How can I sum this up- you need to understand fiction.

@tifabelle

The reason FFX is a different argument is again because Blitz Ball and Underwater breathing are GAMEPLAY elements and they are not something which damages the main story arc.

This is again Suspension of disbelief. I can suspend it in FFX, the whole world of Spira is different to FF7's world. The rules and laws are different and the tone is completely different. I expect to see crazy illogical creatures in FF9, it is almost pure fantasy. FF7 is not. It has established rules from the very beginning based on OUR REAL PLANET. Not ALL rules, but the main ones, like normal human stabbed =dead/severely injured.

 

[DLPB]

oh and btw I don't consider anything which is not the original game as canon. Canon doesn't exist. They have changed so many things, made so many retcons that the fiction fails the minute you try to incorporate the Preq/seq into the main story.

FF7 was designed to be 1 story. It was. It ended. Rufus is dead. Sephiroth is dead. Jenova is dead. Genesis never existed. Nor did Jango Fett. That's it. The end

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I certainly don't consider AC a faithful sequel. It goes against its own established gravity for one thing and is a total failure as a fiction. That's why it is panned by mainstream viewers. Again, exercise judgement. It is easy, and Nomura should try it too.

An audience that hasn't played the game and who tuned in to see a film. The sentence I made, made perfect sense.

Given your complete lack of understanding of fiction, I am willimg to bet the circle of friends you are with, would. venture onto some review sites for Movies and see how it fares. I am afraid it isn't peachy, especially from the non gaming viewers. A film is supposed to work with audiences. AC works only with fanboys. It has next to 0 character de;envelopment and story and is nearly entirely fight scenes which work in a game but NOT in a movie.

Except it's not at all a total failure as a fiction AND It's not panned by mainstream viewers in general. If you just focus on something like IMDB's rating: 25,628 IMDb users have given Advent Children a weighted average vote of 7.4 / 10. 79.5% of those who have voted rated it as a 7 or higher. Hardly what ANYone would consider a "total failure" as a fiction. Plus, that ignores the generally more positive reviews of ACC, because it ties together elements that make it work better as a film for those non-FFVII-familiar audiences.

Don't delude yourself. What I am saying here is basic understanding of fiction which you and many here can't grasp. What is an option is if a fiction WORKED for YOU. Cait is a fiction breaker for anyone who wants a higher standard of storytelling LIKE ME.

Cait is by far the worst and IS A MAIN CHARACTER IN THE MAIN NON GAME STORY ARC. It is a completely different argument.

A "higher standard of storytelling" is complete opinion, because you're holding the elements of Final Fantasy VII at different standards, and want it to be a darker, more serious, gritty story, without any of the extraneous, more lighthearted elements.

FFVII IS ALL of these elements, not just the ones that you pick and choose. Just because you greatly dislike Cait Sith as a character doesn't mean that he singlehandedly destroys or lowers the quality of fiction from what FFVII "actually" is.

FF9 is not FF7. Totally different fiction and totally different rules. The other 2 do not have major parts to play in the story compared to Cait Sith. It is again, completely different logic. I am afraid a human being with real power in Shin-Ra would not reply on a robot cat and stuffed toy. That's absurd.

Like it or not DLPB, Cait Sith and how Reeve uses him, even with ALL the power of ShinRa, is and always will be a part of FFVII's true fiction. Despite whatever re-translations or re-imaginations of Final Fantasy VII you have in mind, Cait Sith is and will always be a part of FFVII's universe and reality. If they wrote FFVII the novel, you wouldn't have Cloud cutting Rufus with the buster sword, or Rufus shooting Cloud in the chest with a shotgun, but you WOULD have battles much like those you see taking place in ACC. You might or might not have squat contests for a wig depending on the humor in the chapter, but you would have Cait Sith, because he's a part of FFVII.


Whether or not YOU consider the Compilation as canon doesn't change the fact that it is. There may be FFVII and Compilation differences, much like Star Wars and the EXU, but they're both very much officially sanctioned canon by their respective companies/creators.


X

 

[DLPB]

Like it or not DLPB, Cait Sith and how Reeve uses him, even with ALL the power of ShinRa, is and always will be a part of FFVII's true fiction

It sure is and will be (never argued it wasn't), and it is bad fiction which is why I am changing it, and why a few people here who voted don't like Cait either.

The argument was whether you liked Cait or not, but I suppose what I really mean is, would the story be better off without him and a human spy instead. I think, yes. That's my opinion for the reasons I have outlined.

FF7 story is not perfect and in numerous places it could be improved.

 

[ForceStealer]

DLPB, in no world with gravity like our own could anyone wield two swords as ridiculous as those. Stop saying FF7's world is Earthlike. You say it has an establish set of physics, but that's only because you dismiss EVERYTHING that isn't as "gameplay."

Well guess fuckin what? A rocket on a slant like that would NOT launch into space. It would flip immediately, slam into the ground and explode. Don't tell me we're dealing within a realistic world here. And yes, I know what suspension of disbelief is, but you can't suspend your disbelief with shit like that and say that their world has the same rules in the same breath, come on dude.

Just face it, you don't actually like Final Fantasy VII, you have pulled out an idea or two you liked and are ignoring the rest.

I am afraid a human being with real power in Shin-Ra would not rely on a robot cat and stuffed toy. That's absurd.

What should he rely on? It's better then sending some kid in the WRO to his death to conduct recon.

And you think that is good fiction?

Wat

FF7 was designed to be 1 story. It was. It ended. Rufus is dead. Sephiroth is dead. Jenova is dead. Genesis never existed.

And this is stupid, because if you considered the sequels "faithful" or whatever you would 'count it'. SO don't give me that 'what it was designed to be' crap.

 

[Tifabelle]

It sure is and will be (never argued it wasn't), and it is bad fiction which is why I am changing it,

You can't change it. You can only not like it.

The argument was whether you liked Cait or not, but I suppose what I really mean is, would the story be better off without him and a human spy instead. I think, yes. That's my opinion for the reasons I have outlined.

Well, the part where Cait sacrifices himself would have been different if he couldn't come back.

 

[DLPB]

But I am changing it. I am replacing game files for PC with a mod. Rewriting script and editing out the model. Cait Sith is disappearing from my world and those who want to join me.

DLPB, in no world with gravity like our own

FF7 has gravity. That isn't an opinion. It is a fact. It demonstrates clearly that the characters walk and talk and fall at rates equal to earth. That's also a fact. In AC, all characters are able to defy physics, something they could not do in FF7. The ones that did that originally were not normal humans or it was a gameplay element.

FF7 had gravity, therefore the law existed, therefore the law had a value. It is a law which we live by in real life. Blood is also something we live by and exists in FF7. Stop arguing with things which cannot be argued with. FF7's main construct is based on a lot of Earths laws. That's why there is metal, why there is gravity and blood and humans in it. HUMANS.

if you considered the sequels "faithful" or whatever you would 'count it'.

oh no I wouldn't. FF7 was 1 story. It started on disc 1 and it ended on disc 3. Everything else that happened, happened for reasons of cash in. I didn't want any sequels and prequels for precisely the reasons we are seeing.

I also don't want a remake because I know exactly how it will end up. FF7 is done.

 

[ForceStealer]

It started on disc 1 and it ended on disc 3.

And only about a tenth of that actually happened.

 

[minimosey]

If that's what you really meant to ask, I'd have to change my answer. Yeah, I voted "no", but I prefer Cait Sith to a human spy. It matches Reeve's methods better; he's the one Shinra exec concerned about human life in the game. Again, using a robot seems silly at first, but it avoids any risk of the spy being killed as a result of getting caught. I think the idea was neat, not so much the execution, but I wouldn't reject it as canon and I don't want a human spy.

Also, I would so include the squat contest if I wrote FFVII as a story. I already included the squat contest while writing a story about Cloud and Aerith.

...You know what I have to wonder? Reeve's gotta have some interesting thoughts back in his office as he has Cait Sith go through his whole monologue before sacrificing himself. Or maybe he's too busy telling himself he's such an awesome storyteller.

Imagine Reeve at D&D meetings.

 

[DLPB]

And only about a tenth of that actually happened.

Actually a shit load of it did, but not squats for wigs and Rufus blowing Cloud away with shot gun or collecting balloons on a great mountain. I could carry on with that for pages but common sense should prevail. Actually, you are right, we need telling these things somewhere but I am not looking at the FF7 team cause these days they don't get it either. Practically the only thing we didn't see in AC was Cait use his dice to attack people.



Like you, the people who made AC think that everything in game should be literally placed into the story... and AC showed us how laughable that looks and why it should not be attempted. (and why a novel of a game wouldn't attempt it).

 

[ForceStealer]

There you go again saying AC was just the game in movie form. How do you figure? A) the battles were not turn-based. B) You keep saying how the game has established laws of gravity and that AC broke those. So how is the movie translating the game directly again?

 

[DLPB]

How could the battles possibly be turn based ? Not even the glue Nomura sniffs would make that happen. They aren't turn based in FFXII either but they are still game battles. It is obviously a game in a movie when you see things like Clouds Limit Break in action on Sephiroth at the end. It looks laughable. The whole thing is 1 long battle after another which has unrealistic (even for this fiction) events occurring which work in a game but not in a movie which has earth like gravity and established laws.

So how is the movie translating the game directly again?

It is a sequel and is completely at odds with its own laws and also how a decent fiction works. It is a complete mess. They couldn't have made AC any more ridiculous if they had tried... well apart from having Cait use Dice.

I have to make this point again, if your movie is relying on visual effects and out of control fight scenes, then it is not a good movie. It is a self indulgent piece of turd. Think to Star Wars Episode III with that useless lava fight scene at the end.

What does it establish? At the end, Anakin has his body decapitated and is toasted. Did we need a 5-10 min sequence? No. Short and realistic is more dramatic than out of control nonsense. It always will be. Th end of Return of the Jedi, shows Luke ina short sequence with Vader, going out of his mind lashing at him for all he is worth. It has so much dramatic impact... more than all of Lucas' prequel green screen shite.

Same with FF7. We see Sephiroth slash once at Tifa. We see him Kill Aerith in 1. WE see him kill soldiers in 1. In AC Cloud and Sephiroth are fighting forever being flung into walls and floating about.

It is fucking SHITE. SHITE. SHIT SHITE FUCKIN SHITTY SHITE.

It lessens the entire feel of the drama. It makes Sephiroth appear too weak and Cloud appear too strong. It destroys any attachment the audience might have to the fictional world and events. THAT is a basic fundamental point that needs hammering home with Hollywood and FF7 AC etc.

At the end of that scene, Sephiroth impales Cloud with his sword. Imagine if that had happened within the first 10 seconds of their confrontation. Yes. That's right.. it establishes Sephiroth is awesome and not to be messed with and it makes us genuinely fear for Cloud's safety. IT WORKS. The rest of the time and budget could be spent on DIALOGUE and DECENT storytelling.

The light saber was cool in SW because it was seldom used and used realistically. In the prequels it becomes boring.

Watch all 100+ episodes of Babylon 5, and come back.

 

[ForceStealer]

*shrug* It's still an opinion. Again I direct you toward the hundreds of samurai and kung fu movies on which the over-the-top action of this and many video games are based. They have their own fans. And again, what about the Matrix? That move was incredibly well received by your "general" reviewers and its overloaded with this kind of action. Even just the first one.

 

[DLPB]

It isn't an opinion. Not that chest nut again.

Kung Fu movie is another genre. Nothing to do with this argument. You go into a Kung Fu movie expecting to have it geared towards fights. And those fight scenes are received better when there is art involved, like with Bruce Lee. Not when it is unrealistic sped up garbage or visual effects all over. A good Kung Fu movie cannot be purely fights. It also needs a story. And certainly, it needs good well thought out fight sequences.

Enter The Dragon was an example of balance and great fight scenes. It is an example of a perfect Kung Fu movie and it was nothing as out of control as AC.

Matrix 1 was well received. 2 and 3 were much more criticised and surprise surprise, one of the reasons was the useless out of control fight scenes.

People go into a FF game expecting a great story and a balance of action. That did not happen in AC. It failed its own genre of being primarily storybased .

 

[ForceStealer]

It is too a damned opinion. This type of a action is a style. You may not like it, but it is an established style, not unequivocally bad fiction. Get over yourself.

Also, what is so "laughable" about the characters using their limit breaks anyway?

 

[Ⓐaron]

Where's the "Indifference" option? Because that was my reaction to Cait Sith. He neither dramatically improved nor dramatically detracted from the game.

That said, I agree with Force.

 

[DLPB]

Also, what is so "laughable" about the characters using their limit breaks anyway?

It works in a game because that's what a game is. It does not work in a movie because the audience become detached from the world and suspension of disbelief is broken. IT looks ridiculous. Have a look at the scene again... what is that doing there in a motion picture? That belongs in a GAME. If I saw Cait rolling dice or cloud snowboarding for balloons in a film, I would laugh hard. They are 2 completely different mediums.

Where's the "Indifference" option? B

I don't like the get out clause option. It is used too much, everyone is swayed one way or another. Or they don't vote

 

[ForceStealer]

...because...they use the techniques that were in the game? Why do you become detached? Just because you recognize the move?

 

[Ⓐaron]

Then the poll isn't an accurate summary of people's feelings about Cait Sith, because it's entirely possible that more people are indifferent to him than like or dislike him. I really neither like nor dislike him. He's just there. Furthermore, people who don't see an option that fits their opinion aren't going to vote anyway. I haven't voted and won't vote unless an "Indifference" option is added.