I think you need to realise that I understand writing and fiction a whole lot more than you, and I am definitely more of a fan of FF7. How I debate on forums, or how I respond to you, or the lack of respect I give certain people here, has nothing to do with my ability to retranslate the game or create Skoll Iscarit.
At the end of the day, we are all fans of FF7, and so instead of whining and whinging and getting all emotional because I am changing your God, you should pull together and maybe add something constructive in the relevant thread.
What this argument boils down to is that you don't like Cait Sith.
This makes Final Fantasy a bad story because adding a character you don't like detracts from the game as a whole? Seriously?
I mean, if you think that Cait Sith being removed would have made the game better, then fine. That's an opinion. I liked Cait Sith being in the game. I don't think he detracted from it at all. Just because he isn't what you want doesn't mean he ruined the game and made it 'bad fiction.'
Also, the limit hating is an opinion too.
I just figured Cloud's limit break INVOLVED inhibiting the ability of the enemy to move. Does that mean that in a place that uses magic they can't cast paralysis while performing a final limit?
What about Tifa using her limits during her fight with Loz? Was that ridiculous?
I don't share your view point with this one and you can't proove I'm wrong for it so that makes it an opinion.
On another note, I watched Advent Children before I played Final Fantasy and I enjoyed it. Was it the best movie I'd ever seen? No it wasn't. But I still enjoyed it enough to watch it again even. I understood what was going on. I felt attachment to the characters. That means it's a decent movie to me. Not a disapointment at all.
I think editing Cait out because you're butthurt about him is kinda ridiculous. And I get that you think this is going to actually become well-known and what not? Actually you act as if you know it for a fact. Good luck.
Really all I get from reading this thread, and yes I read it, is that you don't like Cait Sith and you can't take something being there that you don't like and you don't like it when people disagree with you?
Keep in mind I don't even know who you are when I say this so I have absolutely no bias in this matter as well.
So a complete stranger is not taking your side and I dont' see many people actually agreeing with you.
So what if you don't like Cait? Why is that such a big deal? You seriously can't ignore him?
I don't like Vincent and I'm not a big fan of Barret. Does that mean I should write them out? (Yes Vincent is optional I don't care) For that matter I don't like Sephiroth either. I think he's a horrible villain and half of what he is just seems pointless to me. I thought his existence was kinda silly. Much sillier than Cait was. Seriously you have a problem with someone using a stuffed animal type deal to spy on people in a fair ground ridiculous, but I think having the main villain who is crying for mommy far worse. XD That's just me though.
You're not even writing him out. You're just making him not a moogle-riding cat. What does that actually accomplish?
If you don't like how the game was made then just don't play it.
This thread has so very little to do on whether people like Cait or not and more to do with you trying to force your opinion on people and saying they worship a video game when they disagree with you. Isn't that a little bit silly?
Okay, first things first. The strategic part of me doesn't like Cait Sith. His attack is meh, and his Limit Breaks are utterly random. He's definitely not someone you can plan around.
The part of me that likes analyzing plots and writing fan fiction likes him a lot. He represents a point of view that is not often explored in games/movies, the pov of the nice guy in a position of moderate power in the bad company. This serves to make Shin-Ra a more realistic company as no company is completely evil in the real world. He also serves as a foil for many events in the game, most notably Aerith's death scene. Other events/concepts he serves as a foil for are Sephiroth controlling Cloud and Cloud "betraying" the trust of the rest of the group when he give Sephiroth the Black Materia. He's the type of character that while he can be annoying, the group can't do without.
I introduced myself to the Compilation in the order that it happened so the first time I "met" Cait Sith was in BC. The scene with him is pretty funny as Reeve uses Cait to help the Turks out during the time Shin-Ra is hunting the Turks down and then at the end decides that he needs to make unit Cait can control for offensive purposes. To see that the offensive unit was a mog was hilarious. So yeah, as far as his part in the Compilation goes I like Cait Sith.
Now onto all the off topic stuff that's cropped up. (Yes, Dacon, DLPB, I'm shooting myself in the foot again.)
It seems to me that a large part of the dissatisfaction (I'm not naming whose) with FFVII comes from the fact that it does not conform to real life as far as situations, physics, etc. goes. I'm wondering where the idea that the FFVII world was trying to conform to real life came from. I never thought it was trying to be like real life at all.
In about the first 30 seconds of game play, I thought "Sweet, it's a fantasy anime game!" To me that meant the FFVII world was an anime world and all of the following characteristics would not be out of place:
--rules are meant to be broken, this includes the laws of physics (Cloud falling from the Sector 5 Reactor into the Sector 5 Slums and surviving, much less not have any injuries)
--somebody is going to have an impossibly large sword (Cloud, Sephiroth)
--there will be a magic system (materia)
--somebody will have a tragic past (all the main characters)
--there will be a perverted situation/character (Wall Market)
--somebody won't know about their past (Cloud)
--goofy/lighthearted scenes will happen at the most insensitive of times (snowboarding)
--somebody annoying will be vital to the plot (Cait Sith)
--the weirdest things are accepted as normal (Barret's gun-arm, )
--somebody is an mad scientist (Hojo)
--the hero had a personal score to settle with the villein (Cloud, Sephiroth)
--somebody is not completely human (Cloud, Sephiroth, Vincent)
--all the main characters will be super-powered (all the main characters)
--there are tons more, but that's all I could think of on the fly
Also, no matter how much advanced technology the FFVII world has, it will always be a fantasy world first and foremost. The Lifestream has always been in existence, there has always been monsters, the Cetra can hear the Planet, there's that Jenova problem that needs to be resolved... All that suff existed before modern technology was introduced. There's no way that the FFVII world can be compared to the real one as it wasn't supposed to be the real world to start with.
The part of me that likes analyzing plots and writing fan fiction likes him a lot. He represents a point of view that is not often explored in games/movies, the pov of the nice guy in a position of moderate power in the bad company.
I voted yes, but in truth I'm more neutral. Cait Sith is silly and doesn't make that much sense, but he does add a slightly goofy touch the contrasts with the darker tone of the overall game providing a bit of comic relief.
Huh? No I'm not. There will be differences although the core story of a spy will stay in tact. However, the main story of Skoll, is that he arrives in your party and thinks of you as nothing more than cutthroat terrorists. You are to him, a job.
The actual story is his change from that position to being one of turning against the Shin-Ra and realising his mistake. That is a fundamental change. Reeve has a smaller part of that theme. The dialogue is being altered completely... it is not just a 1:1 model swap.
Obviously there are going to be problems, not least how the hell I am gonna explain the temple of the Ancients. But these are things that I can overcome. Overall, the character will work better imho. But, we will see!
Skoll is part of Shin-Ra in a department which uses spies, basically allied with the Turks. That's the basic outline. I have been so busy with FMV and retranslation and menus that I have neglected work on this, but I think it can work somewhat. Nothing can be as nad as Cait.. "I am coming with you no matter WHAT!" In my version, the spy gets Clouds interest by mentioning Sephiroth. It isnt perfect dialogue but I am restrained by the actual dialogue boxes and the cutscene lengths. I think it is a vast improvement, but we will see At the least it is a bit of fun.
I'm wondering where the idea that the FFVII world was trying to conform to real life came from. I never thought it was trying to be like real life at all.
How am I biased against you if I don't know you? Me not knowing you or most anybody else in this forum got that from what you said.
I didn't ask for your character description and I'll refrain from saying what I think about what you DID feel the need to say because you won't like it.
And what I was saying is that in my opinion he does work with FF7. You can tell me your opinion all you want but that's not going to change mine or anyone else's. You really should get over that.
Whether or not people like Cait Sith as a character and whether or not they think he added/subtracted from FF7 as a whole are two completely different issues, by the way.
Cait Sith was meant to be a spy that changed sides and he did that. He fulfilled what he was meant for and therefore did NOT subtract from the story. Just because you don't like the way he acts or looks like doesn't mean he detracted from the story. If you just nitpick things you don't like but don't change the core of the character then really you're not changing anything.
Cait moved the story along. Cait served as a disposable spy. Cait changed sides. Cait saved everyone.
Cait did everything he was needed to do whether you like him or not.
Also, Cait fit in very well at the Gold Saucer. He fit the scenery and the mood. Just because Reeve didn't change his puppet doesn't mean he's a bad character. Just sayin'.
It isnt really an opinion that he didnt work. In terms of fiction he was absurd in VII and what is not debatable is that at times, he was very poorly written. Whether you like him or not is irrelevant. Whether the whole world liked him is also irrelevant. The point stands. Caits reasons for being with you are "Im coming with you nio matter WHAT you say"
Your characters allowed a big white toy with a robot cat on top to join you for no reason. That isnt opinion here that this is bad writing. It simply IS. It isn't debatable in the slightest.
In order to accept Cait you have to completely ignore the retarded dialogue and pretend that your humanoid party would chill out with a dodgy robot cat for no reason at all.
I am sorry but no "matter what you say", that isn't going to work. There are so many things wrong:
1. Why and how would reeve operate Cait to spy. Why not just hire a human to do the job. Cloud would be more willing to believe that. Reeve would be a very busy man anyway.
2. Why would cloud and co just accept cait in their party like it is perfectly normal to have a toy cat as a companion for absolutely no reason at all.
3. The character itself looks completely out of place with your party.
4, Your party notice that there may be a spy... and make no connection.
Suspension of disbelief : Failed.
Don't use the compilation to answer these questions. FF7 stands and falls on its own merits.
You might not like it, but that's what they did. And they hung out with him because he was holding Marlene hostage for a while, then eventually he grew to like them. So he stuck by their side.
Like his Dismantled profile says:
A fat riding moogle, self proclaimed fortune telling machine. His true nature is a high powered remote control mechanic, being manipulated by a man in a different spot. At first he is a mean threat confidently acting as a spy, but after living face to face with Cloud and the others, he begins to hold doubt of his position for the first time. In the final stage of the game, he does some reverse spy activity.
It is an opinion because saying whether something fits into a story or not is always an opinion. You didn't prove me right or wrong, and in fact you can't whether you choose to see that or not.
This same party let a random guy who lives in a coffin and a girl who constantly steals from them join the party too. What's one stuffed moogle cat?
Aerith joined them 'because she says so' as well. Originally that's why she was allowed to join. So are you going to say she detracted from the story as well?
"1. Why and how would reeve operate Cait to spy. Why not just hire a human to do the job. Cloud would be more willing to believe that."
Reeve is more familiar with Cait Sith and it fit into the initial area that he was going to infiltrate the group. Cloud obviously didn't have problems believing that a stuffed animal meant them no harm.
"2. Why would cloud and co just accept cait in their party like it is perfectly normal to have a toy cat as a companion for absolutely no reason at all."
Look at their group. A Ex-soldier, a guy with a giant gun arm, a flower girl who hears voices sometimes, a bar tender, a thief-ninja, a vampire, and a talking dog thing. And you have problems with the cat?
Cloud at that point probably just thought 'hey, stranger crap has happened' and decided not to dwell on it. Maybe he assumed the guy operating Cait was a coward and didn't want to be seen with AVALANCHE.
"3. The character itself looks completely out of place with your party. "
According to you.
All in all, Cait's no stranger than Red is. Maybe they even thought it was another experiment or something. Who knows? There's plenty of options.
So is Tom and Jerry bad fanfiction? Sometimes they went into outter space. Sometimes they were on a farm. It made no sense, so it's bad right? Harry Potter is bad right? There's no way spells work like that. So it's bad right? The movie Titanic... bad right? Because it didn't happen EXACTLY how it happened IRL.