Dissidia Duodecim Final Fantasy

[Max Payne]

I don't know, without Zack Cloud would be dead/stuck in a tube as an experiment during the events of FFVII.

Without Tifa Cloud would be nothing. He would never have set out to start the course of events that would have led to the world being saved, Cloud would have never me Zack, Aerith, or avalanche and he wouldn't never have become so strong and confident.

Wanting to be someone she could look up to, and depend on was the only reason Cloud joined shinra's military and got mixed up in all the drama.

 

[Makoeyes987]

More importantly, without Tifa, Cloud would still be a virgin.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Without Tifa Cloud would be nothing. He would never have set out to start the course of events that would have led to the world being saved, Cloud would have never me Zack, and he wouldn't never have become so strong and confident.

Wanting to be someone she could look up to, and depend on was the only reason Cloud joined shinra's military and got mixed up in all the drama.

Yeah, and without Zack Cloud would be dead, or stuck as an experiment somewhere. In either case Cloud isn't there to stop Sephiroth and save the world, and consequently Sephiroth wins.

Zack might not have as active a roll as Tifa during the game proper, but he is still damn important to the story since without him, the hero would be kinda dead.

 

[Max Payne]

Yeah, and without Zack Cloud would be dead, or stuck as an experiment somewhere. In either case Cloud isn't there to stop Sephiroth and save the world, and consequently Sephiroth wins.

Zack might not have as active a roll as Tifa during the game proper, but he is still damn important to the story since without him, the hero would be kinda dead.

without a lot of people Cloud would be dead. Tifa included.

But she's the catalyst for EVERYTHING that came about from Cloud joining the military.

Zack has a role, but in FF7 it is nowhere near as important as Avalanche's. It just isn't.

 

[Mitch Connor]

Zack has a role, but in FF7 it is nowhere near as important as Avalanche's. It just isn't.

In FF7, No. In the grand scheme of the plot? Yes

 

[Lord Noctis]

without a lot of people Cloud would be dead. Tifa included.

But she's the catalyst for EVERYTHING that came about from Cloud joining the military.

Zack has a role, but in FF7 it is nowhere near as important as Avalanche's. It just isn't.

We're not comparing Zack to AVALANCHE as a whole, only Tifa. Without Tifa Cloud would neve rhave left Nibelheim sure. As a result he never joins Avalanche. Thus, Avalanche never goes after Sephiroth, or if it does it fails.

But interestingly enough if we take Zack out of the equation, Cloud still doesn't join Avalanche.

Zack's importance is roughly equl with Tifa's importance as an individual during the main course of the game. Just cause a character doesn't do much, or anything really, during the main events of the game does not mean he/she is not vitally important.

 

[Cloud_S]

Gamespot has the trailer in HD.

http://tgs.gamespot.com/video/6276382/?tag=top_stories;title;11#toggle_video

Ripped it for you all:

http://www.mediafire.com/?7rc5oaco0t1bro3

Here's an AVI file for those who don't like/can't play (try VLC player) the mp4:

http://www.mediafire.com/?crpp4u98ya17rob

 

[Max Payne]

In FF7, No. In the grand scheme of the plot? Yes

Lol no. Even with all of the compilation, Zack is still a bit player and avalanche the stars.

 

[Splintered]

Eh, without Aerith, Tifa, and Zack, Cloud would be nothing in general. Tifa is a strong part of that equation, but trying to write off her as less important than Zack would be a mistake. She was with him every step of the FFVII and AC story and her influence in Crisis Core. Zack was Cloud's idol but Tifa for a long time was the reason. Aerith just may as well be god in this case.

Although, if you want to talk about protagnists, I kind of always felt that Barret was the true unsung hero of FFVII. I was going to write an essay about it and everything. The game would not exist with Barret and therefore, he should be in Dissidia.

Or, Tifa is a perfectly fine main character for Dissidia, and monks would be a nice change up for the fighting style. How did this turn into a Zack vs. Tifa fight anyway?

 

[Mitch Connor]

Lol no. Even with all of the compilation, Zack is still a bit player and avalanche the stars.

We were never talking about Avalanche as a group. Excuse me for not specifiying, I was talking about Tifa. And I still say yes Zack is just as important as Tifa overall.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Can we just agree that Cloud would be nothing without anyone?

 

[Lord Noctis]

Eh, without Aerith, Tifa, and Zack, Cloud would be nothing in general. Tifa is a strong part of that equation, but trying to write off her as less important than Zack would be a mistake. She was with him every step of the FFVII and AC story and her influence in Crisis Core. Zack was Cloud's idol but Tifa for a long time was the reason. Aerith just may as well be god in this case.

Although, if you want to talk about protagnists, I kind of always felt that Barret was the true unsung hero of FFVII. I was going to write an essay about it and everything. The game would not exist with Barret and therefore, he should be in Dissidia.

Or, Tifa is a perfectly fine main character for Dissidia, and monks would be a nice change up for the fighting style. How did this turn into a Zack vs. Tifa fight anyway?

Tifa is certainly not less important than Zack, but she isn't far above him in terms of individual importance. She has a more active role in the main game, but the fact remains the world would be jsut as fucked without Zack as it would be without Tifa.

@Mako:Yes,we can agree to that.

 

[Max Payne]

We're not comparing Zack to AVALANCHE as a whole, only Tifa. Without Tifa Cloud would neve rhave left Nibelheim sure. As a result he never joins Avalanche. Thus, Avalanche never goes after Sephiroth, or if it does it fails.

But interestingly enough if we take Zack out of the equation, Cloud still doesn't join Avalanche.

Zack's importance is roughly equl with Tifa's importance as an individual during the main course of the game. Just cause a character doesn't do much, or anything really, during the main events of the game does not mean he/she is not vitally important.

No it isn't.

Zack saved Cloud's life? So what?

Tifa is responsible for this:

Inspiring Cloud to go join the military and attempt to become a hero.

Spurring Cloud's desire for vengeance and giving him the extra push to put down Sephiroth.

Participating in numerous pivotal moments and battles in the story.

Pointing out all of the discrepancies in Cloud's memories.

Leading Avalanche in Cloud's stead before relegating the role to Cid to take care of Cloud.

Saving Cloud from the influence of Sephiroth and his tainted memories, rekindling his will to live and save the world.

Participating in the final battle.

Helping Cloud establish a normal life, reminding him he's not alone and establishing a proper support family for Cloud.

Zack saved Clouds life and was there to experience the downfall of Shinra's greatest heroes. That's an important role, sure.

I don't feel as though that makes him as important as Tifa, or really any of Avalanche. They're the heroes and stars of the series, so of course they will be more important. Zack is a support character.

 

[Splintered]

Tifa is certainly not less important than Zack, but she isn't far above him in terms of individual importance. She has a more active role in the main game, but the fact remains the world would be jsut as fucked without Zack as it would be without Tifa.

@Mako:Yes,we can agree to that.

Never said she was far more important. There are multiple things going on in the FFVII universe. You could argue that Vincent is just as important than Cloud in the grand scheme of things as well, because he saved the world in DoC. But if you were to actually argue that, imagine the nerd rage.

 

[Kai Schulen]

<333333333~ I wonder what inspired this outfit.

 

[Max Payne]

Looks like it's just an edit of his default costume.

 

[Splintered]

<333333333~ I wonder what inspired this outfit.

iirc, Amano's art.

But I think it's ew.

 

[Mitch Connor]

No it isn't.

Zack saved Cloud's life? So what?

Tifa is responsible for this:

Inspiring Cloud to go join the military and attempt to become a hero.

Spurring Cloud's desire for vengeance and giving him the extra push to put down Sephiroth.

Participating in numerous pivotal moments and battles in the story.

Pointing out all of the discrepancies in Cloud's memories.

Leading Avalanche in Cloud's stead before relegating the role to Cid to take care of Cloud.

Saving Cloud from the influence of Sephiroth and his tainted memories, rekindling his will to live and save the world.

Participating in the final battle.

Helping Cloud establish a normal life, reminding him he's not alone and establishing a proper support family for Cloud.

Zack saved Clouds life and was there to experience the downfall of Shinra's greatest heroes. That's an important role, sure.

Many of the things you list here, shouldn't all be credited solely to Tifa. And yes, Tifa is very important, but whats so hard to understand about the fact that Zack's and his memory have a huge influence on Cloud too? And I would hardly say "so what" to Zack dragging around a comatose Cloud out of the fate of being a test tube vegetable his whole life, and then saving Clouds life while bringing him to Midgar, and by extension Tifa. Thats kinda a big thing. Even if it is just one or two bullet points when typed out

I don't feel as though that makes him as important as Tifa, or really any of Avalanche. They're the heroes and stars of the series, so of course they will be more important. Zack is a support character.

You mean to tell me that just because they are part of AVALANCHE, characters like Red, Yuffie and Cait Sith/Reeve are more important than Zack to the over-all plot?

 

[Strangelove]

Trailer stuff:

Lightning's EX Mode text seems to be 'Omega Weapon Equipped!'?

At 1:15 that's WOL's Ultimate Shield attack.

1:18 is an Emperor attack, Cage of Melencolia.

Garland's Flare at 1:22.

Cecil's Light Slasher at 1:28.

Jecht Beam at 1:32.

1:38 is Lord of Arms for Frioniel.

 

[Lord Noctis]

No it isn't.

Zack saved Cloud's life? So what?

Tifa is responsible for this:

Inspiring Cloud to go join the military and attempt to become a hero.

Spurring Cloud's desire for vengeance and giving him the extra push to put down Sephiroth.

Participating in numerous pivotal moments and battles in the story.

Pointing out all of the discrepancies in Cloud's memories.

Leading Avalanche in Cloud's stead before relegating the role to Cid to take care of Cloud.

Saving Cloud from the influence of Sephiroth and his tainted memories, rekindling his will to live and save the world.

Participating in the final battle.

Helping Cloud establish a normal life, reminding him he's not alone and establishing a proper support family for Cloud.

Zack saved Clouds life and was there to experience the downfall of Shinra's greatest heroes.

I don't feel as though that makes him as important as Tifa, or really any of Avalanche. They're the heroes and stars of the series, so of course they will be more important. Zack is a support character.

Cloud would be DEAD without Zack. As in not alive so he never beats Sephiroth. He never even meets Avalanche. He never does anything, because he's DEAD. Take him out and the FFVII story ends in Sephiroth winning, same as if you took out Tifa.

Tifa would never even do most of that stuff if Zack didn't exist because, I say it again, Cloud would be dead.

Basicly, if either Tifa or Zack is removed from the story, Sephiroth wins because Cloud is dead/a vegetable. It doesn't matter which one we remove, in either case the world is equally fucked.

 

[Max Payne]

Cloud would be DEAD without Zack. As in not alive so he never beats Sephiroth. He never even meets Avalanche. He never does anything, because he's DEAD. Take him out and the FFVII story ends in Sephiroth winning, same as if you took out Tifa.

Tifa would never even do most of that stuff if Zack didn't exist because, I say it again, Cloud would be dead.

Basicly, if either Tifa or Zack is removed from the story, Sephiroth wins because Cloud is dead/a vegetable. It doesn't matter which one we remove, in either case the world is equally fucked.

So? The fact remains that Zack wouldn't be a part of the equation, if it wasn't for her. She's the reason, the catalyst, the rest is just gravy.

Cloud owes his life to a LOT of people. Zack accomplishing one important thing, doesn't equate to the SLEW of important things everyone else does. It makes him integral to the plot, but not as important as everyone else in it. We wouldn't even be arguing this if it wasn't for the glorification of his character in the compilation, which you can still completely ignore to no real consequence.

You mean to tell me that just because they are part of AVALANCHE, characters like Red, Yuffie and Cait Sith/Reeve are more important than Zack to the over-all plot?

Duh? They're the focus of the story. Except maybe Yuffie. She's largely irrelevant. I'd argue Vincent too, but he's got a direct stake in the story and lore.

 

[Masamune]

Note: Don't care about Dissidia and it's flashy-flashy-jumpy-jumpy animu action. I bet Nomura was salivating at the thought of putting his pink-haired Cloud transsexual in the mix.

HOWEVER... for reasons Dacon has already posted, Tifa's effect on Cloud's life, past, present and future, far outreaches Zack. Seriously, would you even be having this debate if it wasn't for the Compilation glorifying the crap out of Zack, who was only ever a throwaway plot device in the original game?

 

[Fighter]

I think it's wrong to define someones importance in a piece of fiction solely by how pivotal they are to events in the plot. I mean in some stories the main character might just have lots of character development and a personal journey and have no big impact on resolving important events. But you couldn't go on and say the character has less meaning.

Regardless of who did more or when, Tifa is simply the bigger character in the original FFVII than Zack who only had a few scenes.

 

[Max Payne]

I think it's wrong to define someones importance in a piece of fiction solely by how pivotal they are to events in the plot. I mean in some stories the main character might just have lots of character development and a personal journey and have no big impact on resolving important events. But you couldn't go on and say the character has less meaning.

Regardless of who did more or when, Tifa is simply the bigger character in the original FFVII than Zack who only had a few scenes.

That's a good point.

But in the face of the main characters, I'm always going to feel that the support characters just aren't as important.

 

[Cloud_S]

Also found another upload (the other link seems to be "down" at the moment) of a cam-recorded closed theater trailer:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=T5Q7ZC56