Do You Think We Will See Something This Year?

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, so I'm asking you to tell me what that is. If it's not AC, what is it? And why isn't it AC?

It's fiction, they can write a reason for things changing. I'm purposely not coming up with anything specific because their are tons of ways to change the story. I'm just going to see what happens.

Like I said above, we are dealing with a fictional story and Nojima can write almost anything! I'm sure he will do it in a way that honours the original story though but with twists. Maybe Jenova does get annihilated somehow but maybe something else bad happens a result there's so many things that could potentially happen. To be clear I think a lot of Remake will play-out very similar to the OG but there's no reason why difference's like this can't be written.

You're right, they can do anything. That doesn't mean they will, nor that they should or want to.

They can make Tifa into a pogo-stick riding clown lady who eats sweets 24/7. It's fiction. They can do what they want, right?

There's obviously a balance and standard which aligns with their own self identified themes and intentions. Those themes and intentions are the unseen reasons why certain things are likely to happen, and certain things are unlikely to happen.

 

[Tetsujin]

just chiming in to say that i think we'll see something this year





carry on

 

[Ite]

Okay, so I'm asking you to tell me what that is. If it's not AC, what is it? And why isn't it AC?





You're right, they can do anything. That doesn't mean they will, nor that they should or want to.

They can make Tifa into a pogo-stick riding clown lady who eats sweets 24/7. It's fiction. They can do what they want, right?

There's obviously a balance and standard which aligns with their own self identified themes and intentions. Those themes and intentions are the unseen reasons why certain things are likely to happen, and certain things are unlikely to happen.

I still love that you’re talking as if Zack isn’t alive.

Ultimately it boils down to what you believe. You believe they won’t change the conditions that lead to AC, and I believe that they already have.

 

[Roger]

Advent Children happens because of the inevitable proliferation of Jenova's mimetic legacy within the Lifestream after it's death. It does not join the planet cellularly or spiritually. Geostigma is the "virus" Jenova spread to the Cetra, except refined and repurposed by Sephiroth for a higher purpose and one he can manipulate as a spirit within the Planet. A future where Geostigma doesn't happen requires Jenova to somehow either be utterly annihilated off-planet or for Aerith to somehow preemptively create her healing rain two years ahead of time and rain it down. So how's that happening?

No.
Jenova has been on the planet for millenia without the appearances of Geostigma, people have had Jenova cells injected into their bodies for decades without ever having a case of Geostigma. Advent Children is very explicit about this, Geostigma is Sephiroth's scheme alone. All that needs to happen for a future where Geostigma doesn't happen is for Sephiroth to become aware of the future and how AC isn't gonna be the success he wanted. That has happened already. Defeating Sephiroth just like in the original game is one thing, putting him on track to Advent Children is wholly another.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Did you not finish watching AC to the end? The Silver Haired Remnants returned to the Planet. They were purified. Kadaj and the rest of them are essentially children corrupted by Sephiroth's negative Lifestream.

And I never quite understood why they'd fight for a future in which they fail and die anyway? Because they were cleansed in the end?

Because they were cleansed in the end?

But thanks for the reply. It seems that we're understanding this from really different perspectives.

Also, just to clarify what I meant when I said that "Remake will replace/erase the OG":

if BC and CC effectively lead to Remake, as in "OG extended" with a spice of time dust for flavour, and then Remake in turn effectively leads to ACC and DOC, then what's the game you don't need in that scenario? The OG. This is what I meant by Remake making it obsolete/replaced. Which just seems contradictory to me, hence why I started this conversation. But hey, it's not worth beating a dead horse over it.

Whereas, in my opinion, if Remake is a "sequel" or the "closing chapter" of the Compilation, you kind of really need the Compilation + OG.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No.
Jenova has been on the planet for millenia without the appearances of Geostigma, people have had Jenova cells injected into their bodies for decades without ever having a case of Geostigma. Advent Children is very explicit about this, Geostigma is Sephiroth's scheme alone. All that needs to happen for a future where Geostigma doesn't happen is for Sephiroth to become aware of the future and how AC isn't gonna be the success he wanted. That has happened already. Defeating Sephiroth just like in the original game is one thing, putting him on track to Advent Children is wholly another.

People have had Jenova cells injected into them during the modern era, but if Jenova had the will/consciousness to make it's cells become malignant or dangerous, like it did back when it was an active threat towards the Cetra, they definitely would be a scourge on the human population. Because that would mean Jenova is on the move as a predator. Jenova infected the Cetra with a virus, and that's the comparison I'm making to Geostigma.

Sephiroth creating Geostigma is him fulfilling that same malicious purpose his "mother" carried out before. Except like all other things, more effectively and with a higher purpose in mind.

And while Sephiroth's future self may avoid the situation to not do the same thing twice, there's the fact that the other Sephiroth who's still within the Northern Crater and following FFVII's storyline is still in existence.

 

[Roger]

People have had Jenova cells injected into them during the modern era, but if Jenova had the will/consciousness to make it's cells become malignant or dangerous, like it did back when it was an active threat towards the Cetra, they definitely would be a scourge on the human population. Because that would mean Jenova is on the move as a predator. Jenova infected the Cetra with a virus, and that's the comparison I'm making to Geostigma.

Sephiroth creating Geostigma is him fulfilling that same malicious purpose his "mother" carried out before. Except like all other things, more effectively and with a higher purpose in mind.

And while Sephiroth's future self may avoid the situation to not do the same thing twice, there's the fact that the other Sephiroth who's still within the Northern Crater and following FFVII's storyline is still in existence.

Jenova has been an active threat for as long as Cloud has had Jenova cells at least, no Geostigma until after FFVII. It is not some inevitable event that can only be averted by Jenova's removal from the planet. It's just latest Sephiroth's scheme. And if Sephiroth is following the FFVII storyline then he's leading the party on, breaking out Jenova and killing the President, freeing Cloud from his cell, he has access to Cloud's mind, he's not gonna spend every installment of the game oblivious to that Cloud is dealing with an alleged other Sephiroth.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well that would all depend on if the other Sephiroth tries to make or take direct action on Cloud and the others again.

I don't see them using him a second time like before. They'll probably save him for later. I doubt they'd try to overuse him, especially when they have to move on to the main plot.

 

[Roger]

Well that would all depend on if the other Sephiroth tries to make or take direct action on Cloud and the others again.

I don't see them using him a second time like before. They'll probably save him for later. I doubt they'd try to overuse him, especially when they have to move on to the main plot.

The confrontation at the end of the highway is hardly the only thing the other Sephiroth needs to be ignorant of. You're telling he's carrying Jenova out of the Midgar through an utter whirlwind of those Whispers and is just "whelp, not my problem." That's never gonna happen. Sephiroth has acquired the knowledge of the Ancients, if Aerith and Red XIII are equipped with knowledge of what the Whispers are and what their appearance means you can bet every version of Sephiroth in FFVII's present is keenly aware too. Destiny itself is being messed with Cloud as a keyplayer in the scheme, no way Sephiroth would stay out of it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth can be aware of the Whispers and their purpose, but that doesn't mean he carries omniscience or a full working grasp of all the events that have happened in the future. There's foreknowledge and then there's complete precognition and awareness.

 

[Roger]

Sephiroth can be aware of the Whispers and their purpose, but that doesn't mean he carries omniscience or a full working grasp of all the events that have happened in the future. There's foreknowledge and then there's complete precognition and awareness.

Doesn't require omniscience to make a very small shortlist of likely candidates for beings powerful enough to screw with destiny that would then it use to go mess with Cloud. And what that implies for Sephiroth's plans to kill everyone on the planet within the next three or so weeks.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, I don't know if Sephiroth would have sufficient Doylistic foresight to give his other self that kind of info. Even if that'd be the smart thing to do.

By that logic Sephiroth would stop holding back and toying with Cloud every time he fought him.

 

[Roger]

I mean, I don't know if Sephiroth would have sufficient Doylistic foresight to give his other self that kind of info. Even if that'd be the smart thing to do.

Doesn't really need too. What the Whispers are is information that Red XIII has available to him. There's no way it is something any Sephiroth can't piece together all on it's own. He also has access to Cloud's headspace and has made liberal use of it, all the info exists there as well.

By that logic Sephiroth would stop holding back and toying with Cloud every time he fought him.

Edge of Creation Sephiroth still toys with Cloud, that's unchangeable, if the Geostigma scheme is just as unchangeable then that's exactly what he should be doing, he's not, he's moved onto better things and there's no reason other Sephiroths won't have the same outlook on it when the change destiny itself game enters into the equation which it already has. Putting the genie back into the bottle is gonna be really really really difficult.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Are you saying Sephiroth should be attempting Geostigma in FFVII-R? Or that he should keep trying to do it in the future? I don't get your contention here. I think the fact that this Sephiroth is from a further along future where Jenova's remains no longer exist necessitate the abandonment of that scheme. Whether he can give his other self a "cheat sheet" for the future or not, is actually something we don't know. Information from the Planet is broad, variable and can be overwhelming especially if one doesn't have the applicable context. As shown with Aerith herself and Red. It's an unknown variable, however it wouldn't be that surprising if Sephiroth couldn't, given nothing is ever foolproof. Otherwise Sephiroth would win.

 

[Roger]

Are you saying Sephiroth should be attempting Geostigma in FFVII-R? Or that he should keep trying to do it in the future? I don't get your contention here. I think the fact that this Sephiroth is from a further along future where Jenova's remains no longer exist necessitate the abandonment of that scheme. Whether he can give his other self a "cheat sheet" for the future or not, is actually something we don't know. It's an unknown variable, however it wouldn't be that surprising if he couldn't given nothing is ever foolproof. Otherwise Sephiroth would win.

This other Sephiroth is able to effect change here in the present now and Jenova is here. He could absolutely enact this plan in the present if he really wanted. He doesn't. Future Sephiroth proves he isn't married to that plan and thus neither should present Sephiroth be, it isn't some Cloud obsession level inevitable absolute for him.

 

[Odysseus]

Just wanna chime in and say that:

A) Mako, you can't keep demanding people tell you what a non-Advent-Children-post-FF7 story looks like. We aren't writing the damned thing. Some of us are just taking the game at its word that "destiny has been defied" which leads to the logical conclusion that things will be different. Which leads me to

B) Cloud and Co. are not willingly helping Sephiroth in doing this. They are being tricked into doing it. Remember how Sephiroth strung Cloud and friends along originally and manipulated Cloud into getting the black materia for him? That. It's that but different. From what they know in Remake, the whispers are harassing Aerith, attacked Jessie, stopped them from saving Sector 7, killed Jessie and Wedge (not that they know about Wedge), and going by the visions they get in the boss fight, are setting them up for a future where Aerith dies and a giant Meteor is summoned. There was some good things in there too, like saving Aerith and Barret, and stopping a bridge from falling on them, but overall the party is lead to believe they are a threat because they don't know that things generally work out in the timeline they're abandoning. Only Aerith may know that, but it's unclear. And who's actions lead to the party learning about the whispers and ultimately defeating them? Sephiroth. He's playing them just like he did before, but with more knowledge and a new goal. If I had to guess, his plans going forward will involve him trying to convince Cloud that they're on the same side.

Destiny wasn't not defied because Sephiroth wasn't beaten in Remake 1. On the contrary, this is exactly what he wanted.

 

[Roundhouse]

This is a good time to remind everyone of what is one of the best posts I've seen on this forum:

https://thelifestream.net/forums/th...’s-chair-my-part-2-outline.23229/#post-923115

 

[Makoeyes987]

B) Cloud and Co. are not willingly helping Sephiroth in doing this. They are being tricked into doing it.

Destiny wasn't not defied because Sephiroth wasn't beaten in Remake 1. On the contrary, this is exactly what he wanted.

Yes, the main characters were tricked and aren't willingly helping Sephiroth. But the entire point I'm making is, your presumption that "destiny has been defied" is extremely premature because the "destiny" as described are the ongoing events of FFVII. And they are not rendered null and void. Part of the "destiny" is going to Kalm. Part of the "destiny" is Cloud learning the truth about his past. All of those key elements of FFVII are destiny. Cloud didn't suddenly turn into a legit 1st Class SOLDIER, Tifa didn't suddenly correct Cloud about his mistaken understanding of when they last met, etc. So to claim it's been changed isn't correct. The Whispers aren't "destiny", or "fate." They were Weapons. What got removed were the guardrails for the Planet's ideal future but those are stakes. They're the stakes that are what's being fought for. Not being willingly discarded. When FFVII actual plot is legit shown to be completely obliterated, then yes. It has.

And I ask for a clear perspective of what a *new* future is, that simultaneously aligns with what the writers have said because... That's the point I'm referring to with the facts of their own commentary. That's the discrepancy I'm pointing out. I'm saying it's a contradictory premise.

 

[Odysseus]

But the entire point I'm making is, your presumption that "destiny has been defied" is extremely premature because the "destiny" as described are the ongoing events of FFVII. And they are not rendered null and void. Part of the "destiny" is going to Kalm. Part of the "destiny" is Cloud learning the truth about his past. All of those key elements of FFVII are destiny.

Zack is alive. Biggs is alive. Hojo already spoiled that Cloud isn't a SOLDIER, and already knows who Cloud is and that his reunion theory is true (things that played a key role in Cloud's original downfall by way of Hojo realizing them much later), Sephiroth was fought way early, knows what was supposed to happen and is actively working to change it, and the last we see of the literal destiny embodiment ghosts is as a part of him. So what if they go to Kalm? Where else will they go exactly? Stay in Midgar where they're wanted terrorists? Jump in the ocean? Just because they're not bound by the original plot anymore doesn't mean they're not bound by geography. And the choices made in the OG were still made by these same characters, just because things are out of whack now doesn't mean they're gonna fall off the rails immediately.

A moment I point to is how Cloud nearly killed Reno in Remake. The whispers stopped him then, but there's nothing to stop him now. Moments like that being allowed to progress is how the whole thing crumbles. Butterfly effect and all that. I've been insistent that the progression of locations in Remake will probably be basically identical to the OG, and what's going on in them will be similar because there's not much reason for them not to be. Many iconic scenes will be recreated, and as such all those developer quotes you guys keep dishing out won't be lies. But there's no reason to believe the larger framework will be the same, and a lot of reason to believe it won't be. The ripples of change are already in motion.

You say I'm being premature, but I say you're in denial.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Zack status of being alive would be more relevant or indicative of the change you're talking about if it actually impacted the present. It clearly didn't. Instead we're clued into the fact that such a change left Cloud perfectly in tact as the version of himself in FFVII, and there's a paradox with there being two Buster Swords, a second comatose Cloud, and a Stamp that doesn't correspond with the actual illustration shown in that world. The same goes with Biggs being alive. These paradoxes lead to the existence of a separate timeline where survivors of tragedy can seemingly exist in another world, and explains what we're seeing.

As for the other changes, those don't divert from the direction of events of FFVII. Hojo for instance didn't get to finish his sentence and Cloud didn't hear him. Whether the Sephiroth from the Edge of Creation continues to interfere or not remains to be seen. In the end, those are additive examples of the fluctuations that the Whispers allowed since they're superficially different but not outwardly thwarting the destiny of the Planet. It's not an all-or-nothing exercise. There's a broader context and conflict that exists around the Remake's story but it doesn't supercede or erase the main plot with the Black Materia or the actual Sephiroth in the Northern Crater either.

And I specifically remember you saying you believed the plot would go off the rails immediately.

 

[Roger]

Zack status of being alive would be more relevant or indicative of the change you're talking about if it actually impacted the present. It clearly didn't. Instead we're clued into the fact that such a change left Cloud perfectly in tact as the version of himself in FFVII, and there's a paradox with there being two Buster Swords, a second comatose Cloud, and a Stamp that doesn't correspond with the actual illustration shown in that world. The same goes with Biggs being alive. These paradoxes lead to the existence of a separate timeline where survivors of tragedy can seemingly exist in another world, and explains what we're seeing.

As for the other changes, those don't divert from the direction of events of FFVII. Hojo for instance didn't get to finish his sentence and Cloud didn't hear him. Whether the Sephiroth from the Edge of Creation continues to interfere or not remains to be seen. In the end, those are additive examples of the fluctuations that the Whispers allowed since they're superficially different but not outwardly thwarting the destiny of the Planet. It's not an all-or-nothing exercise. There's a broader context and conflict that exists around the Remake's story but it doesn't supercede or erase the main plot with the Black Materia or the actual Sephiroth in the Northern Crater either.

And I specifically remember you saying you believed the plot would go off the rails immediately.

Hojo definitely got to finish his sentence, we heard him over his loudspeaker and so did Tifa.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No he didn't. Hojo says, "No, not quite. Oh, now I recall. My memory was mistaken. My boy, you weren't a SOLDIER-"

And then the Whispers attacked him. He was interrupted mid-sentence while saying that Cloud wasn't a full fledged SOLDIER, but instead a Sephiroth Copy. The sentence hangs ambiguously where it could be assumed to mean anything if one is unaware. And Cloud obviously shrugged it off. What everyone else heard or believed has yet to be seen but it definitely wasn't the full revelation. Even the Remake Ultimania states it as such.

 

[Odysseus]

Zack status of being alive would be more relevant or indicative of the change you're talking about if it actually impacted the present. It clearly didn't.

Big ol assumptions here about a game you have not played yet lol. Why the heck would he be back if he wasn't going to do anything? This is the denial I'm talking about.

These paradoxes lead to the existence of a separate timeline where survivors of tragedy can seemingly exist in another world, and explains what we're seeing.

You know, I also believed this for a long time. Real or not, those leaks did make me reconsider my position on this though. Mainly in that they made me question why they would ever do this. I can see the basis of the idea, of course, I feel like most people jump to the multiverse conclusion. Coupled with a lot of what you're saying though, this reads to me now more as a way to neatly sequester Zack out to gay baby jail timeline so he can't mess with the Golden integrity of "the original plot" by fans who fear change. I'm thinking we're in back to the future now instead, Zack being in the same timeline, and Stamp's design change being an indication of a rewritten past. As for Cloud 2, I have a way of dealing with him in such a way as he fulfills the role Cloud 1 does in part 1, and then is just overwritten by our Cloud when he exits the singularity (along with potential other versions of the rest of the party), such that we avoid the complications of clones or an unseen version of the midgar events that we didn't see that differs heavily from what happened in remake part 1. Basically, Zack would somehow be separated from Cloud, who would then stumble into Tifa and go through what he did in part 1 while Zack spend those four days in the wrong parts of Midgar (it's a big city lol) looking for him. Then bam, only issue is two buster swords (which would surely be acknowledged). That's just my idea though.

Hojo for instance didn't get to finish his sentence and Cloud didn't hear him.

You are missing the point. It's not that Cloud heard him, it's that he knows who Cloud is. That didn't happen until the northern crater originally, nor did Hojo know the reunion was true until then in the OG either (he actually sees Cloud react to Sephiroth in the remake, confirming he's a Sephiroth copy and reacting to Jenova and Sephiroth). This could easily change his relationship to the party going forward because he has a lot more reason to be interested in Cloud. Also, even if Cloud didn't hear him, the player sure did, so "Cloud isn't a SOLDIER" is out of the bag.

Whether the Sephiroth from the Edge of Creation continues to interfere or not remains to be seen.

Authors tend to insert things into their stories because they matter and will continue to be relevant. See also: Zack.

Also, there is no "edge of creation" Sephiroth. There's just Sephiroth. The Ultimania confirms all versions of him we see share a mind. He's got a singular goal, even the version of him who would've previously been "OG" Sephiroth.

In the end, those are additive examples of the fluctuations that the Whispers allowed since they're superficially different but not outwardly thwarting the destiny of the Planet. It's not an all-or-nothing exercise.

With no whispers around, or in control of Sephiroth who is actively working to change things, small changes become big changes. That's the point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Big ol assumptions here about a game you have not played yet lol. Why the heck would he be back if he wasn't going to do anything? This is the denial I'm talking about.

I didn't say he wasn't going to do anything. But if he's alive currently and has changed the present, why is Cloud exactly the same as he was before? Why didn't his history change? Why is Stamp different where Zack is in the past, compared to his design in the present with Cloud? That's a paradox.

And I have already explained before how they could use Zack as an exploration of loss and the painful choice that'd have to be made regarding loss and choosing between a false Promised Land of death led by Sephiroth versus accepting the chosen fate belonging to the Planet. Bringing Zack back for that reason would be painful precisely because of his tragedy and popularity.

You are missing the point. It's not that Cloud heard him, it's that he knows who Cloud is. That didn't happen until the northern crater originally, nor did Hojo know the reunion was true until then in the OG either (he actually sees Cloud react to Sephiroth in the remake, confirming he's a Sephiroth copy and reacting to Jenova and Sephiroth). This could easily change his relationship to the party going forward because he has a lot more reason to be interested in Cloud. Also, even if Cloud didn't hear him, the player sure did, so "Cloud isn't a SOLDIER" is out of the bag.

Hojo had suspicions about Cloud's identity as early as Costa Del Sol. That's not an extreme difference at all. That's why in the OG he greets Cloud with familiarity and says:

Hmm! I believe we're both after the same goal. Were you in SOLDIER...? Heh heh heh...I just remembered a certain hypothesis...Haven't you ever had the feeling something is calling you? Or that you had to visit some place? This could be interesting... Would you like to be my guinea pig?

The Remake just dropped that clue earlier.

Also, there is no "edge of creation" Sephiroth. There's just Sephiroth. The Ultimania confirms all versions of him we see share a mind. He's got a singular goal, even the version of him who would've previously been "OG" Sephiroth.

That's literally contradicted by the FFVII-R Ultimania which states the Sephiroth seen at the Singularity is one we've never seen before who physically exists, despite there being the Sephiroth inhabiting the Northern Crater. It's one we've never seen. And while they may share a mind, that doesn't change their physical presence.

 

[Ryeleigh]

That's literally contradicted by the FFVII-R Ultimania which states the Sephiroth seen at the Singularity is one we've never seen before who physically exists, despite there being the Sephiroth inhabiting the Northern Crater. It's one we've never seen. And while they may share a mind, that doesn't change their physical presence.

That's actually interesting. So if I'm understanding this correctly, the Sephiroth timeline is basically:

Cloud puts a sword through his back
Sephiroth falls/jumps into the lifestream
starts recomposing his body in the Northern Crater (and what did happen to his original body, btw? did it dissolve in the lifestream? The Northern Crater Sephiroth is just the upper half, right? lol, now I'm imagining his body falling in pieces after Cloud stabbed him)
loses again
creates the Sephiroth clones
bursts out of his mother's head like the Keeper? (I dunno, it's been a while since I saw the film.)
dissolves into black feathers
then there's now the Edge of Creation Sephiroth who physically exists?

??