X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Watch the full thing here: http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/watch-the-fiveish-doctors-reboot-56047.htm
X
Doctor Who!!~
- Thread starter Mantichorus
- Start date
Watch the full thing here: http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/watch-the-fiveish-doctors-reboot-56047.htm
X
Dana Scully
Special Agent
- AKA
- YACCBS, Legato Bluesummers, Daenaerys Targaryen, Revy, Kate Beckett, Samantha Carter, Matsumoto Rangiku
Gotta be honest, I thought the 50th was absolutely terrible. There were some bits I liked, but for most of it I was either just going what or are you fucking kidding or counting on both hands how many of his own plot devices Moffat recycled.
The Five Doctors thing is great, though.
The Five Doctors thing is great, though.
Novus
Pro Adventurer
I didn't feel it was that strong either, but for different reasons than plot recycling.
Moffat avoids consequences at every turn. It feels like he has a message, to show drama isn't about fatality, but it doesn't work without any regard for continuity.
I liked the idea of the Doctor not being alone to use the moment, but what if every single Doctor arrived together including Capaldi (some older Doctor's added through photomanipulation) and they all pressed the button together, showing it was always the Doctor's decision. Wouldn't this have been more effective and powerful than the Doctor destroying the Daleks for the umpteenth time.
I liked the more metaphysical representation of the timewar in RTD's random descriptions more too. The nightmare child. The could of been king the could-have-been king with his army of meanwhiles and neverweres. This was just a standard sc-fi laser battle, and DW isn't about being standard it's about the uncanny.
The Fiveish Doctors was really good though, as was An adventure in time and space.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I readily admit to not being the most dedicated Whovian (and honestly who can keep track of how many times Moffat contradicts himself?) but I seem to remember some kind of rule about time travellers not being supposed to physically touch other temporal incarnations of themselves. And okay
.
maybe Tom Baker was not meant to be playing 'his' Doctor but just some slightly odd museum curator, but he definitely laid his hand on Matt Smith and just a couple of minutes later Smith was doing a voice over about what Doctors dreams of, so....
Personally I'll be really disappointed if Gallifrey is all peachy now and all the Doctor has to do is click his heels together and say there's no place like home... If he is no longer a homeless wanderer but a man on his way home, then the very core of his nature as a character is fundamentally changed, plus if he no longer has to bear the weight of that terrible moral decision on his conscience, all the angst I went through with Tennant as he slowly evolved that Shiva destroyer of worlds mentality was just a waste of my time.
Personally I'll be really disappointed if Gallifrey is all peachy now and all the Doctor has to do is click his heels together and say there's no place like home... If he is no longer a homeless wanderer but a man on his way home, then the very core of his nature as a character is fundamentally changed, plus if he no longer has to bear the weight of that terrible moral decision on his conscience, all the angst I went through with Tennant as he slowly evolved that Shiva destroyer of worlds mentality was just a waste of my time.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
See, I have to completely disagree with that here.
Anyhow, that's what I liked about it in non-specific details on the episode - I'll get to those a bit later when I have internet again (posting this from my phone).
Also- making of video for the episode. Obviously spoilery as all hell.
X
it finally got to move in and take a look at the bigger picture. Scenes like the one where it shows why he's avoided an older regeneration were the best. Eleven's story has always been very much about the "Who?" of Doctor Who and dealing with needing to get out of that shadow of the terror that the Pandorica was built for. With this, we've gotten the well laid out progression of Hurt as the Warrior, Eccleston as the PTSD Soldier, Tennant as the Hero, and then Smith trying to forget and just go back to somehow being the Doctor in the shadow of all of that, and learning what it means.
Changing the frame from the Timelords being all dead because of the Doctor, to Gallifrey being lost and him having something to hope for rather than dread - while going above and beyond to save people because he still truly knows the dread of the wrong decision. Additionally, I really like that it was Clara who really saved them all. It's his companions who save him from himself when he's overwhelmed, and she's the one who really calls them out on it. It's one of those things that when you're directly faced with it, you can't believe that YOUR Doctor would ever condemn all the TENS OF BILLIONS of his own people's men, women, & children to death. Hell, even the War Doctor finally decides to use The Moment because it makes him into someone who refuses that answer as a way out forever afterwards. Holding true to the promise of, "Never Cruel or Cowardly, Never Give Up, Never Give In" and that's what all 13 of the Doctors prove by arriving to save Gallifrey.
It gave a way to embrace what had happened in Classic Who as well as NuWho, and gives it somewhere else to move on towards that's outside of either of their shadows (granted, there's still the, "Silence Will Fall" bookend to Eleven's storyline before that happens).
Changing the frame from the Timelords being all dead because of the Doctor, to Gallifrey being lost and him having something to hope for rather than dread - while going above and beyond to save people because he still truly knows the dread of the wrong decision. Additionally, I really like that it was Clara who really saved them all. It's his companions who save him from himself when he's overwhelmed, and she's the one who really calls them out on it. It's one of those things that when you're directly faced with it, you can't believe that YOUR Doctor would ever condemn all the TENS OF BILLIONS of his own people's men, women, & children to death. Hell, even the War Doctor finally decides to use The Moment because it makes him into someone who refuses that answer as a way out forever afterwards. Holding true to the promise of, "Never Cruel or Cowardly, Never Give Up, Never Give In" and that's what all 13 of the Doctors prove by arriving to save Gallifrey.
It gave a way to embrace what had happened in Classic Who as well as NuWho, and gives it somewhere else to move on towards that's outside of either of their shadows (granted, there's still the, "Silence Will Fall" bookend to Eleven's storyline before that happens).
Anyhow, that's what I liked about it in non-specific details on the episode - I'll get to those a bit later when I have internet again (posting this from my phone).
Also- making of video for the episode. Obviously spoilery as all hell.
X
Novus
Pro Adventurer
That (about the companion) was probably some of the intention. But if you remember in 'The parting of ways' the Doctor wouldn't pull the plug to terminate everyone either. The companion saving the Doctor's soul was really invented during the gap year of 2009.
It's just annoying that we keep getting the same ending, where everything is restored without consequences (or any immediate ones in this case). It's honestly my only complaint with the show.
Almost every script Moffat writes ends the same way, which is a shame since there are good ideas and stories in them.
You know at Christmas the final tomb of the Doctor really won't be as he is going to live on.
Why not, for the sake of consistency,say Trenzalore is the final tomb of the Doctor but leave it and say it could be tomorrow or a million years from now. Why does everything have to be so explicitly final only to be undone seconds later?
If you have to resolve it, do it in a couple of seasons from now, not when it's fresh in audiences minds. I know there is a plan to have the botched 10.5 regeneration count towards the final thirteen regenerations so this sets up the immediate plotline of the new Doctor, but if this is Trenzalore's purpose then it would have been better to have references to it much earlier than Series 6 when it's only to be resolved in the Christmas finale for Series 7.
Being able to choose who lives and dies is a major part of the Doctor's arc, and is hinted at thoroughly throughout the new series (and Genesis of the Daleks). Throwing out a huge piece of it established by RTD spoils it for me.
The part about killing kids is a little dumbed down for me too. To a thousand year old alien the deaths of the Daleks would matter just as much, which they do in GenesisOTD.
It's just annoying that we keep getting the same ending, where everything is restored without consequences (or any immediate ones in this case). It's honestly my only complaint with the show.
Almost every script Moffat writes ends the same way, which is a shame since there are good ideas and stories in them.
You know at Christmas the final tomb of the Doctor really won't be as he is going to live on.
Why not, for the sake of consistency,say Trenzalore is the final tomb of the Doctor but leave it and say it could be tomorrow or a million years from now. Why does everything have to be so explicitly final only to be undone seconds later?
If you have to resolve it, do it in a couple of seasons from now, not when it's fresh in audiences minds. I know there is a plan to have the botched 10.5 regeneration count towards the final thirteen regenerations so this sets up the immediate plotline of the new Doctor, but if this is Trenzalore's purpose then it would have been better to have references to it much earlier than Series 6 when it's only to be resolved in the Christmas finale for Series 7.
Being able to choose who lives and dies is a major part of the Doctor's arc, and is hinted at thoroughly throughout the new series (and Genesis of the Daleks). Throwing out a huge piece of it established by RTD spoils it for me.
The part about killing kids is a little dumbed down for me too. To a thousand year old alien the deaths of the Daleks would matter just as much, which they do in GenesisOTD.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
U.N.I.T. and the Zygons formed an alliance under threat of nuking all of London (which isn't really clear how that'll turn out in the long term). Gallifrey is frozen and locked in another dimension, rather than being burned out from time and space. Meanwhile, 8.5, 9, & 10 all still believe that they destroyed their home, and so did 11 until now, & he still needs to find out how to avoid his final destination being a blood-soaked battlefield.
As far as the long-term plot lines, it's still never been explained who snuck aboard and detonated the TARDIS during Series 5 (or how), and the whole, "Silence Will Fall when the question is asked" is just finally looking to be coming full circle at Christmas.
I wouldn't say that what RTD did was thrown out. The consequences to the Doctor and the current state of the Universe are still there and have been rather explicitly explored by Eleven throughout his run. Not to mention, it always seems oddly unfair/improbable that the Daleks survived the Time War and have continually returned in the hundreds of thousands, but aside from the very brief appearance of the Master - none of the Time Lords have. Now instead of continually running from that, the Doctor can get back to exploring the universe, and helping whoever he can while trying to also save Gallifrey for good.
As far as the long-term plot lines, it's still never been explained who snuck aboard and detonated the TARDIS during Series 5 (or how), and the whole, "Silence Will Fall when the question is asked" is just finally looking to be coming full circle at Christmas.
I wouldn't say that what RTD did was thrown out. The consequences to the Doctor and the current state of the Universe are still there and have been rather explicitly explored by Eleven throughout his run. Not to mention, it always seems oddly unfair/improbable that the Daleks survived the Time War and have continually returned in the hundreds of thousands, but aside from the very brief appearance of the Master - none of the Time Lords have. Now instead of continually running from that, the Doctor can get back to exploring the universe, and helping whoever he can while trying to also save Gallifrey for good.
X
Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
Holy geez what is this? Do X and I actually share an opinion about something from Doctor Who?
Is Hell freezing over?
Is this seriously the first time you noticed that?
I was wondering why everyone seemed to get so confused on where in his timeline the Tenth Doctor came from in this. It was always obvious that if Elizabeth I was there then it had to be from between "Waters of Mars" and "End of Time."
Maybe a lot more people didn't catch the quip about her when Ten is talking to Ood Signma than I thought.
Is Hell freezing over?
Is this seriously the first time you noticed that?
I was wondering why everyone seemed to get so confused on where in his timeline the Tenth Doctor came from in this. It was always obvious that if Elizabeth I was there then it had to be from between "Waters of Mars" and "End of Time."
Maybe a lot more people didn't catch the quip about her when Ten is talking to Ood Signma than I thought.
Captain Jack Harkness
not a out-of-bounds guy
- AKA
- 4nn4-chan, Loras Tyrell, Loki
sadly i haven't finished Tennant's arch yet, so I bet I lost a lot of references and all, but I had to see the special.
good but i expected more (BBC is too good and knows the fandoms and how to hype them up), i spent half of the first part waiting for 11 to say "spoiler" to 10 (it simply had to be done) and i spent the last ten minutes all like "what the fuck is going on?! are they changing the past? it really.. what the hell is going on Moffat?!" but then i understand and i was all " :\ yeah..ok...but, I dunno if this is killing a bit of the old characteritation or what... i suppose this is going to be a important plot for 12". My only real complain is about Jack's manipulator. it looked like a semigod-ex-machina to me. no real explanation on why Jack left it, no real reason on why it's not broken (after last of timelords, 10 says that it must stay broken because if Jack could go around in time it would be a problem) and suddenly it disapear and no one ever say nothing on it. got a bit pissed by this tbh. oh, but now i want to be a uk citizien only because one of their king is Tennant I of England.
Novus
Pro Adventurer
It's repaired in the Series 4 finale.
Lol, you haven't seen 'The Big bang' have you?
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Have to agree with pretty much everything YACCBS, Novus and Lic said. What the shit, Moffat.
Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
I have no idea what the eff is going on here. People that I normally vehemently disagree with on all things Doctor Who I am actually agreeing with, and other people that I am normally high-fiving for sharing all the same opinions I am disagreeing with. 
I think Hell really is freezing over.
I blame X, I think he infected me with his Moffat love.
Actually, this isn't entirely true. If you go back and rewatch "Fathers Day," the episode is clear that it is very specifically Rose who cannot touch her younger self due to the paradox she caused by saving her father. The no touching rule doesn't apply to anyone else.
This was all caused by time already being slightly off-kilter by there being two versions of The Doctor and Rose in attendance of the event.
Except that it won't be that simple.
At least, that better be what happens. If this gets resolved right away I will be rather disappointed.
But all in all, the 50th did exactly what I was hoping it would do, and that is putting RTD era characters back into continuity. It always bothered me that I feel like everything that happened before Matt Smith was suddenly supposed to all be completely irrelevant. No carry-over of any kind to suggest that this was a continuation rather than a reboot.
Seeing Ten and Eleven interacting together gave me more of a sense of closure, and the fact that Moffat had
Because yeah, the 50th does have its fair share of flaws, but meh...
Oh, and speaking of it all connecting,
I think Hell really is freezing over.
I blame X, I think he infected me with his Moffat love.
Actually, this isn't entirely true. If you go back and rewatch "Fathers Day," the episode is clear that it is very specifically Rose who cannot touch her younger self due to the paradox she caused by saving her father. The no touching rule doesn't apply to anyone else.
This was all caused by time already being slightly off-kilter by there being two versions of The Doctor and Rose in attendance of the event.
Except that it won't be that simple.
I don't think The Doctor has any idea exactly where and when Gallifrey is hidden, and how to get there. I think it is going to be an over-arching plot, possibly for Capaldi's tenure, maybe longer, in that The Doctor will be searching for a way to bring the planet out of the hidden pocket universe.
At least, that better be what happens. If this gets resolved right away I will be rather disappointed.
But all in all, the 50th did exactly what I was hoping it would do, and that is putting RTD era characters back into continuity. It always bothered me that I feel like everything that happened before Matt Smith was suddenly supposed to all be completely irrelevant. No carry-over of any kind to suggest that this was a continuation rather than a reboot.
Seeing Ten and Eleven interacting together gave me more of a sense of closure, and the fact that Moffat had
The Moment choose the guise of Rose rather than, say, River (who, to be honest, in the past I would have expected him to choose over anyone else) put some of my qualms at ease.
It's what I wish we had had more of when Tennant and Davies left and Smith and Moffat took over. Let there be one lingering character that sticks around for a couple of episodes. Maybe don't change the interior of the TARDIS immediately. Or hell, use the same music for a couple of episodes as well. Just give us something to tell us that the immediate past isn't so quickly forgotten.
Here we get Ten and Eleven interacting with Clara, and an entity disguised as Rose running around behind the scenes. Then when Smith leaves at Christmas we'll have Clara sticking around for at least part of Capaldi's tenure, which gives us ties to what came before. And as a bonus, we get five seconds of Twelve in the same episode as the whole lot as well.
It all finally connects instead of feeling so disjointed. We even get a reference to the actions of the Time Lord High Council from "The End of Time." It all finally fits! I adored the entire cast of the RTD era so much that it broke my heart that they were replaced so easily. Maybe I'm just so happy that there is finally a connection now that I'm willing to look past everything else, who knows?
It's what I wish we had had more of when Tennant and Davies left and Smith and Moffat took over. Let there be one lingering character that sticks around for a couple of episodes. Maybe don't change the interior of the TARDIS immediately. Or hell, use the same music for a couple of episodes as well. Just give us something to tell us that the immediate past isn't so quickly forgotten.
Here we get Ten and Eleven interacting with Clara, and an entity disguised as Rose running around behind the scenes. Then when Smith leaves at Christmas we'll have Clara sticking around for at least part of Capaldi's tenure, which gives us ties to what came before. And as a bonus, we get five seconds of Twelve in the same episode as the whole lot as well.
It all finally connects instead of feeling so disjointed. We even get a reference to the actions of the Time Lord High Council from "The End of Time." It all finally fits! I adored the entire cast of the RTD era so much that it broke my heart that they were replaced so easily. Maybe I'm just so happy that there is finally a connection now that I'm willing to look past everything else, who knows?
Because yeah, the 50th does have its fair share of flaws, but meh...
Oh, and speaking of it all connecting,
WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT HOW CLARA IS A TEACHER AT THE SAME SCHOOL AS IAN AND BARBARA? THAT IS SO PERF WAT?????
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Lucky devil.
Carlos
I care not
- AKA
- That brown guy
That I am. She is the one who is currently getting me into Dr.Who and got me into Game of Thrones. She makes my life oh so exciting.
Dana Scully
Special Agent
- AKA
- YACCBS, Legato Bluesummers, Daenaerys Targaryen, Revy, Kate Beckett, Samantha Carter, Matsumoto Rangiku
GODFUCKING DAMMIT I JUST SPENT LIKE AN HOUR WRITING THIS AND THEN ACCIDENTALLY CLOSED THE TAB UADJGAOIDGA
okay shall try again
okay shall try again
Let me start with my biggest peeve:
1) Retconning the Time War
I have several major issues with this. First, I find it extremely disrespectful to RTD's time as showrunner. Destroying Gallifrey was easily the most significant contribution he made to the Whoniverse as a whole and the entire basis for the Doctor's characterization in S1 and beyond, and Moffat just handwaved it away.
Second, it doesn't make any sense. The Pre-Eleven Doctors apparently forget saving Gallifrey because the timelines don't align or whatever, but it was previously established, a la Amy and her parents/no parents, that when history is changed both versions are remembered by time travellers. So why do the Doctors forget? And even if they do, what about all the other races involved in the Time War, not least among them the Daleks? Do they somehow mistake the planet miraculously vanishing for being consumed in flame? And then there's End of Time, the events of which also took place during the final day of Gallifrey and now no longer make a lick of sense. I mean, wow, damn, guess your whole plan to escape the time lock was unnecessary there Mr Lord President, points for effort though.
Third, what about all the other races who died in the Time War, ie Zygons? Do we not care about trying to save them? Or the Daleks, who were all going to be killed in the crossfire (which is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, for the record - no doubt some of them would perish but statistically the majority of them would be unscathed), how come none of the Doctors so much as blinked at that? I mean I suppose considering that in Moffat's run Eleven had not only turned the entire human race into murderers (w/ the Silence) but also abandoned a spaceship full of civilians to explode (Power of Three) it was asking a bit too much for just a nod that the precious children of Gallifrey weren't the only victims of the War.
Finally, I've seen some posts saying how great it is that the Doctor can finally forgive himself and be happy. Forgive himself for what? Gallifrey is saved, he no longer needs forgiveness! One of the things I loved about the Doctor being the one to end the Time War is that there are times in life when there is no right choice, when people have to do terrible things in order to prevent even more terrible things. To see a character who is undeniably a hero struggle with such a choice was fascinating to watch. If the 50th had involved the three Doctors - or even all the Doctors - pressing the big red button together, and in doing so acknowledging that what they're doing is horrible but is also saving billions of lives/the entire universe, and in doing so forgiving themselves, you could have had seven seasons worth of emotional payoff. Finally the Doctor would have come to terms with his actions, would have been able to move on and start being happy again. Instead, we never get that - he never comes to terms with anything, because there is no longer anything for him to comes to terms with. It is quite possibly the biggest waste of character development I have ever seen in any show ever, and that's a massive fucking shame.
2) Why was Billie Piper even in it
Don't get me wrong, I loved Billie as the Interface because she is fabulous and adorable and it was just great to see her on Who again. But what was the point of bringing back 'Rose' when you don't have her interact with any Doctor who actually knew her?
This is a person who apparently had such a massive impact on the Doctor that in over 1200 years worth of companions to choose from the Moment chose her to be the Interface, and yet she only interacts with the one character who has no idea who she is. It was such an opportunity for brilliant and emotional character interactions and I cannot properly express my frustration at the fact it was completely passed over . And then the only nod we do get - Ten's reaction to 'Bad Wolf' - lasts all of .2 seconds and then is never brought up again, and that is just bad/lazy characterization, because there is no way that Ten would hear the words 'Bad Wolf' and just be like 'bad wolf oh cool k let's move on ALLONS-Y!!11'.
3) Speaking of casting
Not that John Hurt didn't deliver an excellent performance, but I still can't understand why Paul McGann couldn't play the War Doctor and no I will never stop being bitter about this. (I have a sneaking suspicion it's because Moffat wants to ensure that he gets to be the one to come up with the excuse as to why the Doctor can regenerate more than 13 times, and so decided to throw away some regenerations to speed up the process.)
4) And speaking of characterization
- Already touched on this, but Ten not blinking an eye at the thought of all the Daleks dying is just, lol - I mean just four episodes ago in his timeline he was lecturing Tentoo for resorting to genocide and yet here he is.
- Clara is a teacher now? Doesn't that take like, time and education and stuff and did I miss something because last I checked she was a nanny?
- Apparently Eleven talks to Clara about the Time War 'all the time', that's really great I'm so glad we got to see all those conversations on screen.
5) Moffat recycling his own material
- Time can be rewritten eh, haven't heard that one before
- Saving Gallifrey via stasis was basically saving River except on a bigger scale
- The entire plot hinging on massive amounts of timey wimey, to the point it's nonsensical
- Some may call these shoutouts, but I am of the belief that shoutouts pay tribute to work that is not yours, and therefore call these tooting your own horn to an excessive degree: cabinet building, ding when there's stuff, penis jokes, the horse (maybe - could have been a different horse? looked the same though), writing messages into stone that miraculously survive throughout the ages, etc etc
6) Misc shit that just bugged me and this is entirely subjective
- Turning "I don't want to go" into a catchphrase or trying to connect it to Trenzalore rather than Ten's death in particular completely removes any emotional impact it may have in EoT. But that's okay because EoT doesn't make any sense now anyways!
- Did the Doctor really need to take the time to carefully laser-blast his message into the wall I mean couldn't he just use paint or something
Now I do like to try to end things on a positive note so here's all the things I genuinely liked in the 50th:
- the acting was solid
- John Hurt's Doctor rolling his eyes at his future selves, was very Nine-like
- Peter Capaldi cameo
- Tom Baker cameo
- the fact that Rose wasn't actually Rose which means the real Rose is still safe in Pete's World where she can only be touched by fanfics
- that behind the scenes footage was nice, at least there we got some interaction between David and Billie
1) Retconning the Time War
I have several major issues with this. First, I find it extremely disrespectful to RTD's time as showrunner. Destroying Gallifrey was easily the most significant contribution he made to the Whoniverse as a whole and the entire basis for the Doctor's characterization in S1 and beyond, and Moffat just handwaved it away.
Second, it doesn't make any sense. The Pre-Eleven Doctors apparently forget saving Gallifrey because the timelines don't align or whatever, but it was previously established, a la Amy and her parents/no parents, that when history is changed both versions are remembered by time travellers. So why do the Doctors forget? And even if they do, what about all the other races involved in the Time War, not least among them the Daleks? Do they somehow mistake the planet miraculously vanishing for being consumed in flame? And then there's End of Time, the events of which also took place during the final day of Gallifrey and now no longer make a lick of sense. I mean, wow, damn, guess your whole plan to escape the time lock was unnecessary there Mr Lord President, points for effort though.
Third, what about all the other races who died in the Time War, ie Zygons? Do we not care about trying to save them? Or the Daleks, who were all going to be killed in the crossfire (which is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, for the record - no doubt some of them would perish but statistically the majority of them would be unscathed), how come none of the Doctors so much as blinked at that? I mean I suppose considering that in Moffat's run Eleven had not only turned the entire human race into murderers (w/ the Silence) but also abandoned a spaceship full of civilians to explode (Power of Three) it was asking a bit too much for just a nod that the precious children of Gallifrey weren't the only victims of the War.
Finally, I've seen some posts saying how great it is that the Doctor can finally forgive himself and be happy. Forgive himself for what? Gallifrey is saved, he no longer needs forgiveness! One of the things I loved about the Doctor being the one to end the Time War is that there are times in life when there is no right choice, when people have to do terrible things in order to prevent even more terrible things. To see a character who is undeniably a hero struggle with such a choice was fascinating to watch. If the 50th had involved the three Doctors - or even all the Doctors - pressing the big red button together, and in doing so acknowledging that what they're doing is horrible but is also saving billions of lives/the entire universe, and in doing so forgiving themselves, you could have had seven seasons worth of emotional payoff. Finally the Doctor would have come to terms with his actions, would have been able to move on and start being happy again. Instead, we never get that - he never comes to terms with anything, because there is no longer anything for him to comes to terms with. It is quite possibly the biggest waste of character development I have ever seen in any show ever, and that's a massive fucking shame.
2) Why was Billie Piper even in it
Don't get me wrong, I loved Billie as the Interface because she is fabulous and adorable and it was just great to see her on Who again. But what was the point of bringing back 'Rose' when you don't have her interact with any Doctor who actually knew her?
This is a person who apparently had such a massive impact on the Doctor that in over 1200 years worth of companions to choose from the Moment chose her to be the Interface, and yet she only interacts with the one character who has no idea who she is. It was such an opportunity for brilliant and emotional character interactions and I cannot properly express my frustration at the fact it was completely passed over . And then the only nod we do get - Ten's reaction to 'Bad Wolf' - lasts all of .2 seconds and then is never brought up again, and that is just bad/lazy characterization, because there is no way that Ten would hear the words 'Bad Wolf' and just be like 'bad wolf oh cool k let's move on ALLONS-Y!!11'.
3) Speaking of casting
Not that John Hurt didn't deliver an excellent performance, but I still can't understand why Paul McGann couldn't play the War Doctor and no I will never stop being bitter about this. (I have a sneaking suspicion it's because Moffat wants to ensure that he gets to be the one to come up with the excuse as to why the Doctor can regenerate more than 13 times, and so decided to throw away some regenerations to speed up the process.)
4) And speaking of characterization
- Already touched on this, but Ten not blinking an eye at the thought of all the Daleks dying is just, lol - I mean just four episodes ago in his timeline he was lecturing Tentoo for resorting to genocide and yet here he is.
- Clara is a teacher now? Doesn't that take like, time and education and stuff and did I miss something because last I checked she was a nanny?
- Apparently Eleven talks to Clara about the Time War 'all the time', that's really great I'm so glad we got to see all those conversations on screen.
5) Moffat recycling his own material
- Time can be rewritten eh, haven't heard that one before
- Saving Gallifrey via stasis was basically saving River except on a bigger scale
- The entire plot hinging on massive amounts of timey wimey, to the point it's nonsensical
- Some may call these shoutouts, but I am of the belief that shoutouts pay tribute to work that is not yours, and therefore call these tooting your own horn to an excessive degree: cabinet building, ding when there's stuff, penis jokes, the horse (maybe - could have been a different horse? looked the same though), writing messages into stone that miraculously survive throughout the ages, etc etc
6) Misc shit that just bugged me and this is entirely subjective
- Turning "I don't want to go" into a catchphrase or trying to connect it to Trenzalore rather than Ten's death in particular completely removes any emotional impact it may have in EoT. But that's okay because EoT doesn't make any sense now anyways!
- Did the Doctor really need to take the time to carefully laser-blast his message into the wall I mean couldn't he just use paint or something
Now I do like to try to end things on a positive note so here's all the things I genuinely liked in the 50th:
- the acting was solid
- John Hurt's Doctor rolling his eyes at his future selves, was very Nine-like
- Peter Capaldi cameo
- Tom Baker cameo
- the fact that Rose wasn't actually Rose which means the real Rose is still safe in Pete's World where she can only be touched by fanfics
- that behind the scenes footage was nice, at least there we got some interaction between David and Billie
Super Mario
IT'S A ME!
- AKA
- Jesse McCree. I feel like a New Man
I love that tattooed beauty. 8)
Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
Next time write it in Word first.
That being said, I can't say that I disagree with anything that you have said here, Kat. I can certainly see where you are coming from, and you make excellent points.
But I don't know what it is about this episode, I just can't bring myself to hate it.
Maybe I will later on down the line once we see what kinds of repercussions this has on the series as a whole.
Mage
She/They
- AKA
- Mage
CBA to go into reasons (and Dana Scully wrote it well enough to cover my grumbles), but I didn't enjoy it. I cringed when the War Council counted the doctors as twelve and then corrected to thirteen, with the fast edit of Capaldi's eyes. It was naff. Seriously BBC, stop using decent programmes like Dr Who as vehicles for your pet collective too.
I did like John Hurt, I think he did a good job with poor material.
Also, why the fook was Elizabeth I a chuffer?
Now exiting the thread to dodge spoilers and fangasms of Matt Smith, the real Face of Bo. *ducks*
I did like John Hurt, I think he did a good job with poor material.
Also, why the fook was Elizabeth I a chuffer?
Now exiting the thread to dodge spoilers and fangasms of Matt Smith, the real Face of Bo. *ducks*
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
The post where I strongly disagree with YACCBS - even though I see where you're coming from, I totally don't buy it.
So… yeah. All of that.
X
1) Retconning the Time War
The Time War STILL HAPPENED and still ruined a lot of lives all across the galaxy. The Night of the Doctor clearly established that it was a long, ongoing event, and even the War Doctor's initial regeneration was young when he first got involved. It's still a conflict that went on and on for ages and involved the use of Time Travel and other things all leading up to the final day of the Time War where the Timelords were planning to just end time - which is why the Daleks would have been involved in a heavy military-style assault on Gallifrey, and that's the ONLY point of the Time War that's addressed, and that's why the children of Gallifrey are the victims who are singled out - they're the ones who are all 100% known innocents, (with the other men and women in varying degrees of innocents to the victims of war).
What RTD established there hasn't changed. Even during RTD's era, (as I said earlier), it doesn't make a lick of damn sense that the Daleks are back and alive in the hundreds of thousands over and over again but the Timelords aren't. This doesn't even change the end result that much. Gallifrey is now essentially time locked away in a single moment in another dimension - it's the same as being time locked and burned out of time, except it gives hope that they could be found again - a hope that the Daleks have already had multiple times. End of Time still makes sense, except now the Lord President and crew are just escaping the effects of being frozen away in suspended animation to another dimension, rather than being burned away by The Moment. You essentially just took something that wiped out the Timelords and just made it into Schrödinger's cat: right now, everyone still on Gallifrey is neither alive nor dead - they're in suspended animation in another dimension.
What you seem to be missing is that Ten is still furious about the whole thing, Eleven has decided to finally move on and stop letting it haunt him, and the War Doctor then deciding that it was necessary because it turns him into someone who doesn't take the easy way out at the cost of others (yes it's an imperfect example and there are times when this isn't always the case, but that further points to this as a key part of Eleven's journey and somewhere he doesn't always succeed). However, AFTER establishing that and knowing that it's already a piece of his history, how can you honestly expect THAT Eleven to go back and do it again when him constantly believing that there's another way out IS THE WHOLE FUCKING PURPOSE OF DOING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Seriously. Going back and having everyone re-pushing the button may seem like finally accepting and owning up to everything, except that doing that completely shits all over everything about Eleven's character development of NOT being that kind of a Doctor anymore. That's even MORE explicitly obvious in that he doesn't want Trenzalore to be a battlefield, and he doesn't want that anymore. He's no longer THAT Doctor, and that's why in that moment he doesn't want to be but he doesn't know how not to. That's why it's Clara who just reminds him, "we have enough warriors, any old fool can be a hero" and HE needs to be the Doctor. The "Never cowardly or cruel. Never give up. Never give in." promise made to himself Doctor.
Yes, the Daleks there all get wiped out through some shittily justified crossfire, but they've ALREADY SURVIVED THE TIME WAR MANY, MANY TIMES OVER. It's the Timelords' who finally get a shot at salvation now after all this time - even if it's only Shrödinger's Gallifrey. I can't see how or why this is a bad thing, ESPECIALLY because it gives the show something new to search for, and keeps all of the established character developments intact.
Why was Billie piper in it?
I say this in the kindest possible way: when The Moment had to chose an interface of someone who affected the Doctor the most that NuWhu fans are gonna recognize, it's Rose or River. Suffice to say, they made the right choice.
Speaking of Casting
Again, The Night of the Doctor established this pretty well, I thought. It established that The Doctor tried to keep going around saving people and NOT being a part of the war for as long as possible, because he didn't agree with it. It took a significant event and a new regeneration to turn the Doctor into someone who willingly became a part of the Time War at all. Again, it's all about establishing ideas about who "The Doctor" is. The War Doctor even states that when they save Gallifrey that in that moment he feels that he can be called The Doctor again. "Great men are forged in fire, it is the privilege of lesser men to might the flame." and all that.
Speaking of Characterization
- Ten already knew that the Daleks survived the end of the Time War. The whole purpose was to change the past in a way that was otherwise indistinguishable from what had already occurred, and that's what happened.
- It's never directly stated how long after The Name of the Doctor that this takes place, so yes. There's probably been some time that's passed and showing Clara being a teacher now ESTABLISHES that this is some time later.
- I wish we'd gotten to see them happen, too but you also have to remember that Clara dropped into his timestream, so you'd have to assume that they'd be more open to discussing things like that with everything she knows, it'd be odd not to. Really there's nothing I'd like more than more of Clara and Eleven post-Name of the Doctor, but that isn't happening for actor-specific reasons.
Moffat recycling
- Yes, time can be rewritten, but in this case it's done in a way that's externally indistinguishable from what already occurred, and not in a "magically restoring Amy's vanished parents" sort of way which are really the two VERY different applications of the very basic concept of time travel into the past, so I hardly see how this is something Moffat-specific.
- Saving River was saving a backup echo of her after she died to a computer database, rather than freezing her still-living body into suspended animation and locking it away in another dimension. I suppose I can see a loose correlation if you want to frame it that way, but they're still not the same thing.
The Time War STILL HAPPENED and still ruined a lot of lives all across the galaxy. The Night of the Doctor clearly established that it was a long, ongoing event, and even the War Doctor's initial regeneration was young when he first got involved. It's still a conflict that went on and on for ages and involved the use of Time Travel and other things all leading up to the final day of the Time War where the Timelords were planning to just end time - which is why the Daleks would have been involved in a heavy military-style assault on Gallifrey, and that's the ONLY point of the Time War that's addressed, and that's why the children of Gallifrey are the victims who are singled out - they're the ones who are all 100% known innocents, (with the other men and women in varying degrees of innocents to the victims of war).
What RTD established there hasn't changed. Even during RTD's era, (as I said earlier), it doesn't make a lick of damn sense that the Daleks are back and alive in the hundreds of thousands over and over again but the Timelords aren't. This doesn't even change the end result that much. Gallifrey is now essentially time locked away in a single moment in another dimension - it's the same as being time locked and burned out of time, except it gives hope that they could be found again - a hope that the Daleks have already had multiple times. End of Time still makes sense, except now the Lord President and crew are just escaping the effects of being frozen away in suspended animation to another dimension, rather than being burned away by The Moment. You essentially just took something that wiped out the Timelords and just made it into Schrödinger's cat: right now, everyone still on Gallifrey is neither alive nor dead - they're in suspended animation in another dimension.
What you seem to be missing is that Ten is still furious about the whole thing, Eleven has decided to finally move on and stop letting it haunt him, and the War Doctor then deciding that it was necessary because it turns him into someone who doesn't take the easy way out at the cost of others (yes it's an imperfect example and there are times when this isn't always the case, but that further points to this as a key part of Eleven's journey and somewhere he doesn't always succeed). However, AFTER establishing that and knowing that it's already a piece of his history, how can you honestly expect THAT Eleven to go back and do it again when him constantly believing that there's another way out IS THE WHOLE FUCKING PURPOSE OF DOING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Seriously. Going back and having everyone re-pushing the button may seem like finally accepting and owning up to everything, except that doing that completely shits all over everything about Eleven's character development of NOT being that kind of a Doctor anymore. That's even MORE explicitly obvious in that he doesn't want Trenzalore to be a battlefield, and he doesn't want that anymore. He's no longer THAT Doctor, and that's why in that moment he doesn't want to be but he doesn't know how not to. That's why it's Clara who just reminds him, "we have enough warriors, any old fool can be a hero" and HE needs to be the Doctor. The "Never cowardly or cruel. Never give up. Never give in." promise made to himself Doctor.
Yes, the Daleks there all get wiped out through some shittily justified crossfire, but they've ALREADY SURVIVED THE TIME WAR MANY, MANY TIMES OVER. It's the Timelords' who finally get a shot at salvation now after all this time - even if it's only Shrödinger's Gallifrey. I can't see how or why this is a bad thing, ESPECIALLY because it gives the show something new to search for, and keeps all of the established character developments intact.
Why was Billie piper in it?
I say this in the kindest possible way: when The Moment had to chose an interface of someone who affected the Doctor the most that NuWhu fans are gonna recognize, it's Rose or River. Suffice to say, they made the right choice.
Speaking of Casting
Again, The Night of the Doctor established this pretty well, I thought. It established that The Doctor tried to keep going around saving people and NOT being a part of the war for as long as possible, because he didn't agree with it. It took a significant event and a new regeneration to turn the Doctor into someone who willingly became a part of the Time War at all. Again, it's all about establishing ideas about who "The Doctor" is. The War Doctor even states that when they save Gallifrey that in that moment he feels that he can be called The Doctor again. "Great men are forged in fire, it is the privilege of lesser men to might the flame." and all that.
Speaking of Characterization
- Ten already knew that the Daleks survived the end of the Time War. The whole purpose was to change the past in a way that was otherwise indistinguishable from what had already occurred, and that's what happened.
- It's never directly stated how long after The Name of the Doctor that this takes place, so yes. There's probably been some time that's passed and showing Clara being a teacher now ESTABLISHES that this is some time later.
- I wish we'd gotten to see them happen, too but you also have to remember that Clara dropped into his timestream, so you'd have to assume that they'd be more open to discussing things like that with everything she knows, it'd be odd not to. Really there's nothing I'd like more than more of Clara and Eleven post-Name of the Doctor, but that isn't happening for actor-specific reasons.
Moffat recycling
- Yes, time can be rewritten, but in this case it's done in a way that's externally indistinguishable from what already occurred, and not in a "magically restoring Amy's vanished parents" sort of way which are really the two VERY different applications of the very basic concept of time travel into the past, so I hardly see how this is something Moffat-specific.
- Saving River was saving a backup echo of her after she died to a computer database, rather than freezing her still-living body into suspended animation and locking it away in another dimension. I suppose I can see a loose correlation if you want to frame it that way, but they're still not the same thing.
So… yeah. All of that.
X