Doctor Who!!~

[Super Mario]

There's plenty of plotholes Mr. Moffat did and many unforgivable and shitty things he did such as the resurrection of Skaro (how I dont fucking know), a leaf, and losing Amy and Rory in the most stupidest fashion of getting rid of a companion ever with Idiot ball set to maximum power. I kind of take it in strides sometimes but the loss of Amy and Rory nailed it and kinda put me off the Doc till recently. There's a ton of shit to rectify here before I could watch again but

Spoiler

Gallifrey and the hope of time lords patrolling time and space someday may possibly be very good without their power hungry personalities from End of Time in effect.

 

[Roger]

Spoiler

Doctor Who is a show about time travel and people are really confused about how Skaro can show up again? I didn't think that even needed to be explained. It's also worth pointing out that the Daleks also have a history of making planets they've conquered into "New Skaros". See the TARDIS Wiki.

Well that's why it's called a Time War. I feel the Time Lords kind of suck at their job if everything Time Lord is timelocked but the Daleks can go back in time and hang out on their homeplanets in peacetime whenever they want.

RTD milked the Daleks yes, but having them have homeworlds and many different past versions that encountered the Doctor is a step too far I feel. Like the Timewar and being brought to the brink of extinction now didn't even happen for them.

 

[Dana Scully]

Also I found it odd that

Spoiler

the Doctor didn't show any trepidation about the Time Lords being back, considering that when he time locked them in the first place they were about to end the universe. And they've always been massive assholes in general, let's be honest. I suppose that could come later, though, when he actually gets closer to finding it.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think that this might be where we're disagreeing. It's a fundamental difference in how we view the decision and what we think the character is about.

It was a horrible, impossible choice -- but life doesn't let you make easy choices. Sometimes you have to burn someone to do the right thing or for the sake of someone else. And you aren't then handed by life absolution for those choices. You have to find it within yourself.

Spoiler: Ok...

Right, and The War Doctor came to that very same conclusion. He was 100% prepared to use The Moment for the exact same reasons that RTD initially presented, because on his own - that was the only option that he had. That's still who The Doctor was in that moment. That doesn't change.

What would have been more valuable -- what has always been more valuable -- is that The Doctor makes the hard decisions, but always for the right reasons. For others and not for himself, even if it means damning himself and taking away his own ability to look himself in the eye (sometimes literally). He's like the sci-fi version of George Bailey.

He chose to do what he did and to live with those consequences, wanting redemption, but always knowing deep down that he did what he had to do and would do it again, even if he couldn't forgive himself for it.

That's The Doctor. The guy who takes responsibility and wants the best for everyone while knowing life will force choices about deciding what's best for the most people possible.

Spoiler: Funny that you should say that...

He didn't make this decision for himself - if he did, it would have timey-wimey magicked away his suffering - BUT IT DIDN'T. He changed it because killing 2.4 billion innocents WASN'T the only way, because like with the sonic screwdriver, he could work with himself on the calculations throughout many many years - because he's travelled through time more than probably anyone else ever. He saves Gallifrey for THEM - (again, this harkens back to The Beast Below with the suffering of children being something that he can't ignore).

We got to see that even KNOWING the consequences, The (War) Doctor still made the same decision - to use The Moment. The same reason that without another option, Kate was gonna nuke away the Black Archive - because without additional intervention at that time, she made that hard decision, even though it wasn't the right thing to do. The only reason that The Doctor had another option is because The Moment ripped open time and space to force him to have another option the same way that the Doctor forced himself into the Black Archive to give Kate another option. If the Time Lords' most powerful weapon was a space/time altering weapon with a conscience you'd assume that it would present other options to the Doctor, and the other options ARE The Doctor.

That's what's important - Gallifrey falls no more because of who The Doctor is and should be, and that's NOT the warrior or the hero.

Also I found it odd that

Spoiler

the Doctor didn't show any trepidation about the Time Lords being back, considering that when he time locked them in the first place they were about to end the universe. And they've always been massive assholes in general, let's be honest. I suppose that could come later, though, when he actually gets closer to finding it.

Spoiler: Woah, woah, woah.

The Gallifreyan High Council was certainly going to end time, and Ten already dealt with them again in End of Time (which Eleven would have known). Yes the demographic of other Time Lords that he deals with may have been dicks 98% of the time, but are you suggesting that killing them is worth slaughtering the >2.4 BILLION other known Gallifreyan innocents + others? Because that's bullshit. That's like the Doctor if blew up all of Europe during WWII because at least it killed Hitler and the 3rd Reich, and the rest of the world survived. Then when presented with another option where everyone gets frozen away rather than being killed, being nervous about taking it.

X

 

[Dana Scully]

Spoiler: Funny that you should say that...

The same reason that without another option, Kate was gonna nuke away the Black Archive - because without additional intervention at that time, she made that hard decision, even though it wasn't the right thing to do.

...except it was the right thing to do?? Like at the time it was either nuke London or let the Zygons conquer Earth, and given the options nuking London was the right choice. She was saving 99% of the Earth by sacrificing the 1%, just as the Doctor was saving the universe by sacrificing Gallifrey/the Daleks. In both instances it was the right thing to do - a terrible thing to do, obviously, but still right.

Spoiler

That's what's important - Gallifrey falls no more because of who The Doctor is and should be, and that's NOT the warrior or the hero.

Except the Doctor is also those things - the warrior and the hero, both roles he doesn't like but accepts as necessary. Trying to constantly separate those aspects, as if they're a different person, does disservice to the character. "Oh the real Doctor wouldn't end the Time War, only this warrior version of him." No, that's still the Doctor, the man who takes responsibility for his actions even when he's ashamed of them.

Spoiler: Woah, woah, woah.

The Gallifreyan High Council was certainly going to end time, and Ten already dealt with them again in End of Time (which Eleven would have known). Yes the demographic of other Time Lords that he deals with may have been dicks 98% of the time, but are you suggesting that killing them is worth slaughtering the >2.4 BILLION other known Gallifreyan innocents + others? Because that's bullshit. That's like the Doctor if blew up all of Europe during WWII because at least it killed Hitler and the 3rd Reich, and the rest of the world survived. Then when presented with another option where everyone gets frozen away rather than being killed, being nervous about taking it.

Wait, what?

Spoiler

I never suggested he should let everyone everyone die because certain Time Lords are massive douchecanoes. I never even suggested he should kill those douchecanoes in particular. But those Time Lords who want to ascend and will damn the rest of the universe to do so are still around, and it would be nice to see some acknowledgement of that fact.

I mean even as recently as The Night of the Doctor we had the chick saying Time Lords are as terrible as Daleks and she's glad that the Doctor will die with her.

Also, IIRC, Ten 'dealing' with the High Council was sending them back to the Time War, so they should still be around and kicking at the time Gallifrey is put into stasis. Unless Rassilon murdered everyone in a fit of rage, I suppose.

 

[Roger]

Spoiler: Ok...

Right, and The War Doctor came to that very same conclusion. He was 100% prepared to use The Moment for the exact same reasons that RTD initially presented, because on his own - that was the only option that he had. That's still who The Doctor was in that moment. That doesn't change.

Spoiler

Yes it does. He WOULD have made the decision. The Sisterhood didn't fail in their attempt to make a War Doctor, but he was allowed to make the other choice, do the right thing and be the Doctor again. And he regenerated knowing all this. The Ninth was created in as positive a place as any Doctor, more then some, certainly. That he loses his memory sometime afterwards doesn't change that I feel.

Spoiler: Woah, woah, woah.

The Gallifreyan High Council was certainly going to end time, and Ten already dealt with them again in End of Time (which Eleven would have known). Yes the demographic of other Time Lords that he deals with may have been dicks 98% of the time, but are you suggesting that killing them is worth slaughtering the >2.4 BILLION other known Gallifreyan innocents + others? Because that's bullshit. That's like the Doctor if blew up all of Europe during WWII because at least it killed Hitler and the 3rd Reich, and the rest of the world survived. Then when presented with another option where everyone gets frozen away rather than being killed, being nervous about taking it.

X

Spoiler

Ten DIDN'T deal with it. He thought he did because he thought he killed them in the Time War. Here, briefly, he knows better. I don't think that getting rid of the bad ones makes it WORTH IT. Anymore then the Doctor did in The End of Time. Even when the return of Gallifrey meant the destruction of Earth, he still needed the Master to hold his hand through the whole thing. But even before that was a thing the saving of the Time Lords, good along with the bad was a prospect of dread for him. He'd do it. But he'd be reserved about it's implications.

We might see this acknowledgement for what the War turned Timelords into in the future. But we didn't see it in Moffat's Ten.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

X, like Aaron, you're approaching this from an in-universe perspective. I'm speaking purely in out-of-universe terms.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Will respond to people's posts later if X or someone else doesn't get to it first (I'm about to head off to bed), but I'm posting to note that it seems likely that more missing episodes have been discovered. There are strong rumours that the 1964 serial Marco Polo has been discovered in full, and while the BBC has issued a statement saying they can't confirm it, they also didn't deny it. So make of that what you will.

 

[Tennyo]

Just got back from seeing this in 3D in the theater. It was an awesome experience, knowing I was with a huge room full of Whovians.

And the bits before it started were hilarious.

Spoiler

Strax lecturing the audience on viewing etiquette, Eleven and Ten discussing the 3D while taking swipes at each other, it was great! I remember a bunch of girls in the front row screamed when David Tennant popped up during that part. It was pretty funny.

But aaaahhhhhh, I tried to be more analytical in this viewing, but I just can't bring myself to feel any different. I read what everyone is saying on both sides of the argument in this thread, and I agree with everyone! But in the end, I still loved this episode to itty bitty bits! It gives me such happy feelings, I just don't even know why.

Spoiler: But let's all put our differences aside and bask in the glory of The Doctor chillin' with Lewis and Tolkien.

Spoiler: BTW am I the only person in this thread who is not a mod?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Quite possibly, yes.

I'm not so sure that's accurate. The premise of the solution in "Time Crash" came from Ten remembering watching himself through Five's eyes, and apparently there have been similar plot devices involving Five used in other-non-TV installments.

10 remembered it happening when he was five only when he was ten. That's how this generally works. 3 remembered 3 doctors, 1, and 2 did not. 5 Remembered 5 doctors, 1, 2, and 3, and most of their companions did not. It's a curious case with the Two Doctors, given the whole "Season 6b" nature of 2's involvement in that plot, but again, it seems 2 doesn't remember at all.

Honestly, the most inconsistent portion of each adventure is whether the most recentDoctor remembers each event as a previous self, and and it tends towards him mostly not, with vague recollections of the events in question, and the previous versions recalling even less.

As for comparing this to OMD, if we're comparing DW to marvel plotlines, I'd say this is more akin to the age of Apocalypse, where the AOA X-men manage to go back in time and avert the horrible action that caused their present situation.

Another thing is, they didn't actually change the Doctor's character here. Yes, he did figure out a way to avert the intentional destruction of Gallifrey, but both 10 and 11 were willing to go through it again to save the universe, have it on their conscience twice, until the Moment intervened.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't know, man. The more I think about it, the more I think this episode was completely unnecessary, recycling some ideas and erasing the value of others in the meantime.

I just finished watching "The Fires of Pompeii" again, and it's really the same premise as the 50th (allusions to Gallifrey are even drawn to Pompeii), only that one ended the way this one should have: The Doctor pushed the button and did what he had to do. He killed those 20,000 people in Pompeii to save the rest of the Earth just like he razed his own planet to protect the rest of the universe.

Moffat really did nothing new with this special other than undo years of characterization and good storytelling by a better showrunner than he will apparently ever be. I've been saying it for a while, and I'll damn sure continue to say it now: Stop watching after Ten regenerates. That's where the show should have ended. That's where it stopped being relevant.

 

[Roger]

Quite possibly, yes.

Not me.

Spoiler

Another thing is, they didn't actually change the Doctor's character here. Yes, he did figure out a way to avert the intentional destruction of Gallifrey, but both 10 and 11 were willing to go through it again to save the universe, have it on their conscience twice, until the Moment intervened.

10th and 11th's characterisation doesn't boil down to whether he'd push the button or not for me. I certainly think 10 can be pursuaded either way but "but who else are we gonna annihilate the Daleks?" is definitely not the only problem he'd see.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not me.

10th and 11th's characterisation doesn't boil down to whether he'd push the button or not for me. I certainly think 10 can be pursuaded either way but "but who else are we gonna annihilate the Daleks?" is definitely not the only problem he'd see.

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that's all either boiled down to, just that both of them have faced similar issues before, and, interestingly enough, both times involved the Doctor willing to lay down everything, even his life and his name to save people.

One thing I've seen pointed out elsewhere is that, in real time, we've had eight years of the Doctor dealing with the fallout of what he thought he did. His pathos is no less real for being innocent of the act for which he condemned himself.

Putting this in JRPG terms, Crono's throwing himself in front of Lavos is not less meaningful because he gets rescued, nor does it ruin Lucca's character for her mother to be saved from rather than crippled by machinery.
Likewise, I don't think it ruins the Doctor to try to save Gallifrey and possibly fail- after 400 years of thinking he did- rather than willingly destroy it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A key difference between those examples is what actually happened. Chrono really made the choice to go up against Lavos and he died for it. He was really gone. Lucca's mom was really crippled and Lucca had to grow up wishing she had known how to save her. The woman wasn't pretending.

What's happened here with Gallifrey amounts more to a cosmic April Fools Joke.

And you can say all you want that Ten and Eleven were willing to make the choice "again" if that's what it took, and that this makes it the same as if he had actually done it -- but that's not true. They were willing to do it in part because that's how it "happened," and, thus, how it must happen. But no incarnation of The Doctor ever actually did it. He was never forced to make the choice to do it.

You know what this is more comparable to? Red XIII in Cosmo Canyon in FFVII. He grieves over being the last of his kind and we sympathize with him.

Then Before Crisis comes out and we find out there's another of his kind within a moment's walk from where he's standing while he whines like a little bitch. And that he knows she's there. And that he knows she is a she. Which means babies. Which means he's not the last of his kind.

And then we want to punt his ass off the side of the mesa.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler: Except that that still happened.

The War Doctor still made the decision to use The Moment at the time. 9, 10, & 11 STILL dealt with the consequences of eliminating their own race from the universe. And Gallifrey is STILL GONE. It's not suddenly repaired. It's still completely missing from the universe, trapped frozen… SOMEWHERE. Yes, it's not exactly the same as burning them out of time and space entirely, but it's not the same as just magicking them all happily back into place. If it were, I'd agree that it would invalidate previous developments, but it's just not.

The Doctor is still the last of his kind in the universe, and he's still responsible for being all alone by eliminating Gallifrey from this universe. Except that now he's got to deal with the potential ramifications of what saving Gallifrey could mean for the rest of this universe. What if bringing them out of their frozen universe means the Daleks restart the Time War? If anything, Schrödinger's Gallifrey presents a huge set of moral and ethical complications far more vast than Burned Gallifrey ever did.

X

 

[Rassilon]

I loved this episode. Everything about it. I'm glad that they allowed the Doctor to have some sort of redemption. He still made the choice, everything in the timeline remains intact, and as far as I'm concerned nothing about the Doctor at his core has changed.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Except that that still happened.

No, it didn't. "That" being Gallifrey burning and the consequences of Gallifrey burning (e.g. dead Time Lords).

You can call The Doctor's bitterness and loneliness a consequence, but that's a consequence for him, not, you know, the disintegrated people.

Maybe you were watching Who before 2005, but my first Doctor was Eccleston. For both Nine and Ten, The Moment was the defining moment (ha, puns) of his 900+ years.

To me, this is like finding out that Uncle Ben was killed by a stray bullet fired in a gangfight a few hundred feet from where he was about to be confronted by the arena crook -- just so Pete could be "redeemed" of responsibility for his uncle's death (that's not what redemption is).

Really, I'm not just being a butthurt fanboy who doesn't like change here. To me, Moffat looked into the heart of the TARDIS and took a shit.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Tres: What is it explicitly that in your mind REQUIRES Gallifrey and it's billions of innocents to have been burned out of time by the Doctor vs. ending up Schrödingered in another dimension that is the big issue here? What is it that's SO different about those two consequences, especially when the Doctor makes the same choices, lives through the results of the first, and only BECAUSE of that is given hope by the results of the second? What is it about that that's so wholly unacceptable to you?

You're clearly getting some kind of disconnect from one that I just don't see. The Marvel analogies aren't addressing the specifics of what happened in a way that makes it clear.

And lastly: How does that affect 11's development of moving AWAY from all of this, and striving to not be a warrior anymore after 400+ years of dealing with those concequences? Why turn him back down that path again?

X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What's different? Well, ask the denizens of Gallifrey. Or hell, The Doctor himself. I imagine it's a completely different kettle of fish to everyone involved.

Your question of what's different when he made the same choices doesn't apply. They are drastically different choices or it wouldn't mean hope (which is something different) to The Doctor and there wouldn't even be a conversation to be had here, right?

As for Eleven's development, well, fuck Eleven. Really, though, the Warrior is part of him. Denying part of oneself isn't exactly a good direction for a character in the first place if they don't ultimately accept it.

I also have to say that if you feel a saved Gallifrey presents the potential for new things for The Doctor to feel guilty over (e.g. just setting up the Time War to reignite), then that still makes this whole thing a futile exercise that will bring him back around to blaming himself for shit and "going down the same path," as you put it.

I mean, really, if the consequences to come of this are just going to be "I should have accepted who I am from the start and pushed the damn button," then we're just spinning tires here and that could have been established by pushing the button this time.

Would also be kind of a waste of a 50th anniversary special to reboot a plot device in place from 2005 so we can get back to that status quo in a couple of years. 50th anniversaries don't come around that often.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

On a different but slightly related note:

The fact that they openly addressed the Doctor being afraid of growing up, sets a good precedent for Capaldi coming on to the show, like I'd hoped it would. Having the War Doctor harassing them about the Sonic Screwdrivers being scientific instruments, & Eleven making quotes from the Brigadier like, "Science leads" to Kate when she's going to blow up the Zygons in the Black Archive gives me a LOT of hope for Peter Capaldi's Doctor being back to the wandering temporal explorer righting wrongs where he ends up, and less of the eternally conflict embroiled time traveler.

Clara & Eleven have a really sweet dynamic that I still really want more of and am going to miss a lot, but after seeing Jenna Coleman alongside John Hurt those few times, I'm really excited for her to have an older Doctor. Clara knows the Doctor from her experience in his time stream at Trenzalore, and with Peter Capaldi being a veritable cornucopia of Doctor Who knowledge, I think that the show's gonna be comfortably different moving on from Christmas. I'm quite excited to see how it turns out, since it seems like we'll be on a very different story and character arc from Eleven and his NuWho predecessors. If anything, the entirety of the 50th speaks to this thematic shift in tone.



And Tres: By that logic, fuck 9 & 10 Eleven HAS accepted that the warrior WAS a part of him and he's trying to move on from it. He's made BOTH choices. My point is that why does Gallifrey NOW still need to be burned vs. Schrödingered? It IS different from before and that's the whole point. It's a new but even more complicated issue.


X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

On a symbolic level (where great fiction matters), I don't see an acceptance of all facets of The Doctor here, to be honest. Now, had The War Doctor done what had been established since 2005 and done it after denying The Doctor side of himself while Eleven did so after denying this Warrior side of himself, I would call that good character development. Both these sides of him coming together and doing what is required, both making the same choice for different reasons -- that says something.

This just says that sometimes you make hard choices, have to live with them, and you don't get to put it behind you unless a man whose name looks like "muppet" poops a hole in space-time, Superboy punches a wall at the edge of the universe, etc.

It might be great for setting up future "Doctor Who" plot points, but it's entirely vapid as art.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Living with your bad decision and the terrible impact you think it had is just as bad and sometimes worse than having the bad decision actually have a tragic consequence.

We spent 8 years and the Doctor at least 400 thinking he had done the most imaginable thing he could ever do, that he was willing to do it. Now we learn that he didn't, but he was still willing until finally, after 400 years of looking, he finally found an out.

I don't see this as the Doctor not making the hard choice.

In my head, this is a man going back in time to stop himself from committing a murder he believed he committed and now regrets, only to learn through the course of events he didn't actually commit the murder in the first place.

The regret is real, even if the circumstances are not.

 

[Tennyo]

Neil Gaiman addresses the whole "renumbering issue" like a boss.

I love him. <3

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And that is, perhaps, the best possible note on which I could end my coming into this thread. So, thank you, Tenny.

I have no need to be here any longer with the spirit of the program ruined. For anyone who reads my grievances at a future date and thinks to themselves, "Let's see him do better then," here you go:

----
::the three Doctors stand at the button; Clara's objections have brought something like hesitation to all their faces, including the War Doctor's; none make a move to push the button; suddenly, the TARDIS's wooshing sound is heard over and over as ten other time machines appear; from each emerges a past Doctor, as well as one yet to come::

Ten: "What?"
WD: "Why are they here?"

::Twelve looks right at Eleven and smiles::

Twelve: "You're going to be okay now."

::realization slowly dawns on Eleven's face::

Eleven: "They're here to put the past behind us."

::he looks at Clara::

Eleven: "Thank you for reminding me why I had to do this."

::tearfully, she relents; each of the other Doctors step up to the button and place their hand on it; Ten and Eleven join them; only the WD hasn't done so yet; Ten looks at him::

Ten: "You are not alone."

::a tear falls from Eleven's eye::

Eleven: "You never were."

::the WD raises his hand and places it on top of the others'; together, they push; fade to white; when things fade back in, similar farewells are had as in the final product; the WD departs as his regeneration begins, he makes his joke about his ears and then he muses to himself::

WD: "I am not alone. I can't wait to remember that."

::in the dream sequence that ends the episode, the Doctors are simply looking up at the stars and worlds they have saved::

Eleven: "What a beautiful universe."
----

Is it perfect? No. But I did that in less than five minutes, and I challenge anyone to tell me it's not better.

Anyway, thanks for the good times in here, everyone. I'll be hoping for the name of The Doctor to actually be redeemed at some point.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's not better.

It's not worse.

It's just going in a different direction.